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Feedback on Ground Skill Tree Revamp
majortiraomega
Member Posts: 2,214 Arc User
Overall I am very fond of the Ground Skill Tree revamp. However, there are a few skills that are quite under-performing and are currently would weaken a build if used.
It may be a bit late, but I'd love to see the ground trees expanded a little as well. Ground has essentially been reduced from 90 possible skills to 20 with 10 possible points. This significantly limits build variance in ground combat. Perhaps giving us a few more points and adding a "Weapon Type Expertise" tree. Something like this:
A skill tree like the above would truly allow for build variance and allow us to customize and specialize our characters based upon the role we wish to use. It would also allow us to reduce the penalties placed upon specific weapon types. For example, pistols have a very short range in comparison to rifles, rifles have long secondary cooldowns, and melee weapons are significantly lower in damage potential. It would also make for interesting mechanics in Ground PvP.
- Kit Efficiency/Improved Kit Efficiency
- 10% kit reduction is too low to be effective. For 2/10 points it reduces most cooldowns by a second or two. Furthermore, Tactical Initiative exists and the use of long cooldown kit abilities is planned around the activation of this ability. There is also a trait, Overcharging, that does exactly what this skill does, but for much less of a cost.
- Regeneration/Improved Regeneration
- This regeneration only applies out of combat. The reason for regeneration in ground combat is only for in combat situations. Even then, this skill is too weak. This skill would be much more viable if it increased healing received in addition to passive regeneration (in and out of combat).
- Weapon Penetration/Improved Weapon Penetration
- -3 and -5 damage resistance rating isn't worth taking. The potential damage bonus is quite negligible at this level against players with 150+ damage resistance rating. Please consider making -10 and -15 respectively.
It may be a bit late, but I'd love to see the ground trees expanded a little as well. Ground has essentially been reduced from 90 possible skills to 20 with 10 possible points. This significantly limits build variance in ground combat. Perhaps giving us a few more points and adding a "Weapon Type Expertise" tree. Something like this:
- Row 1 (Center): Marksman - +5 meter range to all ranged weapons, +40 perception
- Row 2 (Left): Advanced Pistol Training - +5 meter range to all pistol weapons
- Row 2 (Center): Advanced Assault Rifle Training - +25% to Plasma Cell Recharge and 25% Cooldown Reduction on ranged weapon secondaries
- Row 2 (Right): Advanced Melee Training - To self: +5% bonus melee damage for 20 seconds when performing melee combos (Stacks 5 times) , doubles melee inflicted DoTs from combos
A skill tree like the above would truly allow for build variance and allow us to customize and specialize our characters based upon the role we wish to use. It would also allow us to reduce the penalties placed upon specific weapon types. For example, pistols have a very short range in comparison to rifles, rifles have long secondary cooldowns, and melee weapons are significantly lower in damage potential. It would also make for interesting mechanics in Ground PvP.
--->Ground PvP Concerns Directory 4.0
--->Ground Combat General Bugs Directory
Real join date: March 2012 / PvP Veteran since May 2012 (Ground and Space)
--->Ground Combat General Bugs Directory
Real join date: March 2012 / PvP Veteran since May 2012 (Ground and Space)
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It is nice to have a way to increase the passive regeneration; we did not have this possibility with former skill-tree – BUT, if this is not applied like, 25 – 30% bonus in Combat and 50% bonus out of Combat, there’s not much use for this skill. Zero-passive regeneration bonus in combat from this skill serves little purpose & again, diminishes potential possibilities from Ground-combat.
To explain: The entire point of higher passive HP regeneration on Ground is to be able to raise survivability and offset the incoming damage, while you fight the enemies. There is practically no rush out of combat and there are more efficient ways of regaining health out of combat anyways. Simply speaking – You do not need higher passive regeneration when you just stand around and are out of danger. The way this skill is set, it gives little to no advantage to anyone – but, to tanks it potentially could serve well, if this skill grants the bonuses In Combat as well.
Suggestion: Apply the bonuses of this skill in Combat on Ground as well. Make the final number 25 – 30% in Combat, while retain the 50% bonus Out of Combat.
The fact they gave ‘Combat Specialist’ to everyone AND removed its’ crucial improvement of critical hits of melee is likewise undermining, underwhelming change; It’s like they took a special skill from say, Engi & gave it to everyone, at least that’s the way I see it.
Suggestion: Have ‘Offensive Mastery’ to boost ‘Combat Specialist’ + melee (unarmed; ex. Lunge & Sweeping Strikes) crits skill as well, not only Weapons as it currently is.
‘Threat Control’ is being removed completelly for ground, (it was part of my original setup/build, as it was one of its’ needed components, due to tanking nature of it) & the reason for its’ removal is apparently, because people “don’t understand it, and didn’t use it” and "tanking was not intended to be part of STO combat" – Is that a reason to remove a perfectly valid skill, useful for tanking builds? In my opinion; no. It removes further variability from Ground combat – and given we have far less options as it is, compared to space, I suggest this stance is reconsidered.
Suggestion: Space has got their ‘Threatening stance’, why not keep this for Ground as well? Or - Add it as additional skill-tree if necessary & give us more Ground points to spend to offset the change.
I believe that offensive Mastery should encompas melee as well. By melee in this instance, I mean things like Bite, Lunge, Pounce, or Sweeping Strikes – Not just weapons, as it presently is. There aren't enough abilities to grant boosts to those since 'Combat Specialist' being basically removed.
There aren’t enough bonuses for melee in the special-skills, selection you gain as you progress through the tree – found one. That, and we’ve essentially lost damage-potential by Combat Specialist being given to everyone + no longer boosts critical hits. This change I believe would offset that, at least a bit and would be also more feasible to implement, given that everyone on the Ground has the same skills/trees, regardless of the career.
Suggestion: Offensive Mastery: +10 Weapon Proficiency, Combat Specialist, Weapon & Unarmed Criticals.
Additionally – I believe the Ground would benefit from having 11 – 12 spendable points. 10 feels a bit too tight. I’d say compromise it at 11. Go all up to 15 - 16 if 'Threat Control' is re-added as a separate skill-tree. (See above suggestion)
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I'm afraid I can't comment on the bulk of it just yet, but there's a few quick things I can say:
* Kit Efficiency has been increased from 10% benefit to 20% (I think this change is already on Tribble). It will additionally be changed in the future to give similar benefit to the Commando skill, so it either gives X% -OR- Xsec bonus.
* Ground HP Regen will likely be adjusted to retain some of its value while in Combat. This will be after we track down the reason for some very different Regen values being seen on Tribble vs. Holodeck (still need more testing/info on that subject!)
* Weapon Penetration has been improved internally to double its current values: 6%/4% (total 10%) instead of 3%/2% (total 5%). I'd be willing to consider further improving it, if it still feels like it's never worth the point investment.
As for the general concept of expanding the tree... I find the thought intriguing, but I'm not certain we have time to consider such a drastic re-design at this stage. I'll give it more thought.
Keep the feedback coming!
Cryptic - Lead Systems Designer
"Play smart!"
Human Engineer
- Trait: Regenerative Tissue
- Trait: Peak Health
- Trait: Indomitable
- Trait: Medical Nanites
- Commando: Juggernault Armor Plating II
Holodeck:
- Combat Armor 99
- HP 921 (Jem'Hadar Armor)
- HP 1220 (Delta Armor)
- Regen 238.8% (Delta Armor)
- Regen 470.0% (Jem'Hadar Armor)
Tribble:
- Combat Armor 100
- Health Capacity 100
- Health Regeneration 60
- HP 1429 (Delta Armor)
- HP 1058 (Jem'Hadar Armor)
- Regen 266.8% (Delta Armor)
- Regen 500% (Jem'Hadar Armor)
A flat 30% increase in regen and additional max HP to make it even better.
Of course, all is meaningless when in-combat regen is non-existent, so I'm looking forward to that fix.
STO Screenshot Archive
1) Given how bursty damage can be in ground combat overall, the survival skills (+hp, +armor, +shieldhp, +shieldhardness) feel a lot more valuable than the damage skills. You do 0 damage when you die, after all. Thus, it feels like 8 out of the 10 points are already spoken for:
That gives me...uh, 2 points to work with.
2) Weapon proficiency/expert and kit performance don't have quantifiable bonuses displayed. There's no way for players to tell if either are worth taking until after they take them and experiment. They'll either take these skills and find the improvement acceptable, or they'll find the bonus minimal and be left with a bad taste in their mouth.
3) Weapon Penetration (shouldn't it be Armor Penetration?) effectively boosts your damage. Weapon Expert also does the same thing. If someone only has 1 more point they're willing to spend, they have to choose between 2 skills (Weapon Expert vs Weapon Penetration) that effectively do the same thing--increase damage. How will they know which one is "more damage?"
4) The improvement to Kit Efficiency is nice, however I still think the bonus will be outshined by raw damage increases and increased survivability. Don't get me wrong, it's a very tempting bonus, but with so few points and so many seemingly-mandatory options, it just doesn't seem like there's room to take it.
The problem is not enough skill points for ground. By the time characters reach lvl 50 in the old system most of us have 85 to 99 in PSG, our kits and special abilities are mostly at 85 to 99, basic weapons skill is usually at 99, maybe some in Willpower, armor, etc. In the new system, to have PSG, kits, and equivalent endurance you will have at most 1 point in weapons skill. Yes at most. And your crit chance will only be there if you sacrifice a point somwhere else. Some already dislike ground combat, cant do it well, or find it less than fun under the old system. How likely will it be that we can entice people to play on the ground when under the new system they will either deal less damage or die more often and further erode PUG groups?
Player and forumite formerly known as FEELTHETHUNDER
Expatriot Might Characters in EXILE
Emphasis mine. That one point in weapons skill will already make you do more damage than before.
From what I tested myself, if you invest zero points in the new ground damage skills, your performance will be the same as Holodeck. So there's no "loss" here, to say.
These damage skills are something new. The old skills like Weapon Proficiency and such now are always active for everyone as if they were maxed out.
So now, you have *new* choices, including: do more damage at the expense of known defenses, or do the same damage as before but be more survivable (with the new Health Capacity skill for example).
STO Screenshot Archive
If they don't, my ground build toons are going to be worthless, couse my bfaw3 scimmy captain will be almost as powerfull as my ground toon.
Means I'll probably just delete a majority of my level 50 alts. They're pretty much pointless now aside of farming which I don't really do. I used to have specialized ground toons, a sci that was a medic and a sci that was dps focused for example. Now one can do both and even be like a space spec'd toon is on holodeck now! The positive side is that primary space players may feel like coming down to ground without feeling gimped.
Vanilla Ground PvP information
You could keep them for creating manuals if you're into that.
STO Screenshot Archive
Have maybe 5 Points as flexible where the player has to decide where to spend them (space or ground) so we can get this kind of differentation again.
I understand that's a change to how you've been enjoying the game. But please understand that the fact that you felt it was necessary to do so is indicative of at least a partially-failed design on our part.
Cryptic - Lead Systems Designer
"Play smart!"
My characters still did great, and I can get even more power out of the revamp. I'm actually worried that merging all of the kit-boosting skills into one is going too far, and will make the Elite missions even easier than they are now.
IMO this is the wrong change. What would be the difference form classes then? Say a SCI vs a TACT in ground. Usually a Sci outlives a TACT in ground due to heals/meds but then a TACT with the right "skills" can bring down foes in a short period of time but dies quicker. Are classes impacted with this "equalizing" of skills as well?
My character Tsin'xing
What's the difference right now? You're arguing against a scenario that already exists.
In the current Skill System, live on Holodeck, all ground captains have the same skills other than those that affect their Kit Abilities and Captain Abilities. The same is true under the new system, except that those other skills have been consolidated into "Kit Performance." So... I guess I don't understand your point.
If your opinion is one born of misconception and miscommunication, then it demonstrates the exact reasons we should be moving forward with a unification and simplification of the Skill Trees.
Cryptic - Lead Systems Designer
"Play smart!"
These changes are fantastic, thanks Bort! Alright, so Kit Efficiency will be useful and very similar to Commando once this goes live. Any chance of tacking on +Healing to the Regeneration skill in order to allow it to reach levels similar to the other skills? Thanks for upping the Penetration values, we will get on testing that right away. Also thanks for pondering the idea of adding more skills to the tree.
This is the core issue with the current ground tree. In Ground PvP there is going to be a high need for survivability skills in the tree. Most players are probably going to go for Shield capacity/HP, +Damage, and +Kit Effectiveness. This is fine, but build variance is going to be so limited. For instance, very few players will be taking Regeneration passives because they regenerate 0 HP if dead, and therefore go with the HP passives instead.
I'll be using 7/10 points on the available defensive passives and that's probably going to be similar for a lot of players. I know it is late, but please, consider adding +5-10 skills to the tree and giving us 5 more skill points. This new system is great, but it needs a bit of expansion to make it feel like we have a real choice on building our ground characters.
Well said Bort, and I really do like how you've combined all kit abilities into one single "kit tree". It removes the unfortunate situation where we'd have new kit modules, but unable to use them due to the skills associated with them.
--->Ground Combat General Bugs Directory
Real join date: March 2012 / PvP Veteran since May 2012 (Ground and Space)
To start out, to make my stance clear I completely agree with you that the skill system needs a revamp. What you and your team have put forth is is a step in the right direction and definitely simpler. But is simpler always better? Precise modification of certain kit abilities has always allowed players to spec out according to their build.
When you look at the current ground skill tree, you see 10 different places to put your skill points into, 5 on top and 5 on bottom. The 5 on top are the places you put your skills to improve different kit abilities (and class abilities), and the bottom 5 are there to improve your character overall (damage, hitpoints, CC resistance and damage resistance). What is currently being put in as the replacement for the ground skill tree gives a single path for improving all kit abilities, and an expanded path for the overall character. This is perfect in other games where your playstyle/type is based on your stat choices, however STO is unique and almost entirely depends on 5-6 abilities that you choose (kit modules). Most things from character to character are pretty much the same besides the kit modules. Now, since this part of tree literally only affects your kit modules, not your class abilities, everything that changes that adds variety to every character is now put into one general skill path. The path that just improves the overall stats of your character is now going to be expanded into multiple, but the thing is if you were to remove the stat improvements to characters from everything in the skill tree, nobody would notice. The most important part is being generalized and the part that most people forgot existed is being expanded as the important part. In short, I believe that this generalized path to kit abilities will remove many of the advantages between classes and any noticeable difference to each other. The new skill tree needs to have multiple paths that improve individual types of kit modules (those that give crit, those that buff damage, those that add weapon effects, those that give hp, those that give shields, those that debuff enemies, those that add CC to enemies, those that give damage resistance, and maybe a few others). This would be a very easy thing to do since kit modules have 1 of these aspects to them, and would give each player a very simple skill tree (if you want to heal, put points in this, if you want to do consistent damage, put points in this, etc) with a lot of variety with them to work with. I get that you are going to put this out soon and don't have that much time to change it, but I think adding this improvement would be worth it, since it maintains simplicity and gives variety for players on their build.
My character Tsin'xing
I do not know what you mean by "Emphasis mine"
As for your assertion that 0 or no points in weapons will be as effective as current on holodeck, I see no evidence this is correct. With no traits slotted, no gear, no skills selected, as close to a blank slate a near maxed out level 60 character can be, there is no base score in stats. Adding 1 point to weapons proficiency gives 60 points. Another point in Weapons Expert gives 100 (about the equivalent of 9 points in weapons skill on Holodeck but without crit chance.). That does not provide crit chance. That requires another point. Weapons penetration is new so any point in that is a new venture and a hefty fee to pay over survivability.
In the character I worked on tonight, what I do see is shield health is about the same as on holodeck per the level of investment (2 points for 420 PSG health on Tribble). Health unbuffed was 567/765, holodeck to Tribble, if I am recallng those numbers correctly.
Player and forumite formerly known as FEELTHETHUNDER
Expatriot Might Characters in EXILE
My new build on Tribble has zero weapon skills, and the DPS of my weapons increased slightly. There was a drop in Mine damage, but other than that, I didn't notice a drop anywhere else. I made sure to check all traits and gear were the same between servers.
Holodeck:
- Weapon DPS (Compression Phaser Rifle): 115.7
- Cold Mines: 303.6
- Orbital Chasing Beam: 248/s
Tribble:
- Weapon DPS (Compression Phaser Rifle): 122.7 (No Weapon skills)
- Cold Mines: 281.7 (Kit Performance Expert)
- Orbital Chasing Beam: 248/s
STO Screenshot Archive
I don't see it as complicated at all. If you want more crits, you put points into crits. You want more damage, you put points into damage. You want more healing you put points into healing (I honestly don't know how much simpler you could get).
Also, you said that some of these things are common for one profession but not so much on others... well yeah that's kind of my point. This would maintain the class difference, which is a very important aspect of the game. If you want to spec into healing on a tac, it is not necessarily "meta" but it will buff your Motivation, Rally cry, and Vascular Regenerator (research kits frames) which will allow the tac to do more consistent damage vs. burst. You can spec is a bruiser tac, an assasin tac, a support tac, and this goes for ALL THE OTHER CLASSES. This is simple, has class diversity, and allows for multiple build paths for every role.
those that give crit,
those that buff damage,
those that add weapon effects,
those that give hp,
those that give shields,
those that debuff enemies,
those that add CC to enemies,
those that give damage resistance,
and maybe a few others
8 + "a few".... the old system had 5 career specific things per class. This idea of yours is confusing for newbies, but more importantly actually HURTS your ability to swap modules as you have to spec for specific modules. Thus you must choose what types of modules you want to use and any others are much less effective.
My character Tsin'xing
This could be tacked on later but I think it's a good idea for a little more diversity without forcing people into one thing.
My character Tsin'xing
You know when I said that the kit module section should be expanded that's kind of what I meant... it should be... you know... expanded? If there are 5 originally, wouldn't expanding mean add a few more, like I don't know, 3 (5+3=8)? The problem isn't the amount of things you put skills into, but how each set buffs various abilities that do random things (seriously, look at the skill tree that buffs security escorts, look at everything else it buffs and wonder how the hell it makes any sense). And no, it doesn't hurt your module swapping because of the class differences that that are maintained BY THIS SYSTEM. Even if what you said is true, it is no different than the status quo, therefore it is not a harm. Also, class kit modules already have similar mechanics built into them so that all the modules you switch to would all be buffed by the same thing. For example, the majority of science modules are either built around healing or build around caster damage. The majority of tactical modules are either build for damage or crits. The majority of engineer modules are built around summoning something or character buffing. If you're worrying this would be bad for the game and it would be confusing for people, let me ask an experienced gamer such as yourself; have you ever seen anybody build shield healing on a tactical officer? It doesn't really work out. Yes, it would be bad to spec into some things on different classes, but again that is exactly the point. It would give a clear spec path. Seriously though, how would it be MORE confusing, comparing the current system where the different skill boxes buff seeming random groups of abilities, versus a skill tree which says "HEY THIS BUFFS _______, IF YOU WANT _______ USE THIS". There still is no reason as to why this system is MORE confusing than the current system.
I would like to see your "expanded reasoning" on your argument, and after seeing your 5 lines of sentences, I think that you should make sure you type less than 8 total. You know, so that it isn't too confusing.
Well that's not my problem they're the ones getting paid for it... LOL
Seriously though it could be any number of things, rather than just static boosts I think it should be something that enhances or modifies how specific powers work. Like the Science one might grant you an enhanced sensor suite which lets you see your targets stats like armor rating, resistances, power levels etc. Engineering might improve the bonuses you get for each point of power so for example 15% more buff to energy weapons as well as heals and science powers or anything else that relies on your power levels. Tactical might grant Maneuvering abilities (similar to pilot maneuvers) with each enhancing a specific aspect like one for defensive purposes, one for speed and positioning and one for strait out raw damage.
These are just some thoughts off the top of my head to give you an idea, the point is that each would be useful in it's own way but would not limit you to just engineering or tactical builds etc. Having that advanced sensor suite would be very useful on any ship or build especially in PVP and the engineering power would also be very nice to have on healers/tanks, DPS builds and science builds alike, the Tactical one would just be generically useful. So while each class would have something unique it would be horizontal expansion and not vertical lending each to it's own unique but equally fun and useful playstyles without shoehorning you into any one build.
Ok, I've spoken the English language my whole life and that is the first time I've seen that usage.
Mines would be buffed by kit skill on Tribble and explosive skill on Holo, not weapons skill. Same for orbital strike. Weapons display their flat damage potential and possible DPS. This amount isnt inclusive of captains skill in any documentation I am aware of.
I'd really like to see the actual calculation of ground damage/DPS from one of the developers. Tactical captains depend on buffing base weapons damage for their DPS. They didnt have mines and an explosive skill on Holo. They have grenades buff by grenade skill, which will now be buffed by kit skill, so that will likely remain the same.
Player and forumite formerly known as FEELTHETHUNDER
Expatriot Might Characters in EXILE