I think that a point I made has been bent out of shape to claim that I said no one else is allowed to have an opinion (false), so I'm going to try my best to explain it one more time and call it a day.
The point I have been trying to make about the old procedural system is that its homogeneous nature means that there are really no new or varied experiences. Experience with a very few missions it generates is enough to be indicative of the entire system given the lack of variety. And as others have also pointed out, a more varied and enriching procedural experience would pretty much require a new game engine. Like it or dislike it (again, I did not say others are forbidden from opinions), you can judge the entire system based on very little interaction with it. With the Foundry--like it or dislike it--the experiences are so widely varied from each other that it is impossible to judge it based on one or a small set of interactions with it. The system inherently has more variety and flexibility.
So in a nutshell here is the point I was making about the variety or lack thereof, that has been twisted out of shape: whether it's a favorable judgment or an unfavorable one--either way--you CAN make a single judgment on the procedural exploration system based on limited interaction (and the system cannot be changed to surpass that limitation without extensive overhaul to the game engine if not a new game), but with the Foundry the experience is far too variable to allow for a single judgment.
And...
Day.
You're explaining very well why people should not HAVE to play the old exploration missions, and why you did not like it but STILL fail to explain why it was OK to remove content players enjoyed without any reasonable replacement.
The developers cited among the reasons they decided to remove them:
- People actually got lost in the exploration clusters. E.g. people that wouldn't have to go there, but who did there anyway, because they could.
- It cost a lot of download size
- It considerably impacted the build/release process. (I wonder if the long time it takes to republish Foundry missions after a season or expansion release might be similar to that.)
You can of course say all these are insuffiicent reasons or could be untrue, but that's what we have to go by.
It seems obvious to me that the clusters were not content used heavily, compared to featured episodes or queued missions.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
It seems obvious to me that the clusters were not content used heavily, compared to featured episodes or queued missions.
They were never advertised. Of course most players probably didn't know they existed. the percentage of players who use the forums and are always up to date on every feature of the game without it being waved in their face is about 1-2%
"He shall be my finest warrior, this generic man who was forced upon me.
Like a badass I shall make him look, and in the furnace of war I shall forge him.
he shall be of iron will and steely sinew.
In great armour I shall clad him and with the mightiest weapons he shall be armed.
He will be untouched by plague or disease; no sickness shall blight him.
He shall have such tactics, strategies and machines that no foe will best him in battle.
He is my answer to cryptic logic, he is the Defender of my Romulan Crew.
He is Tovan Khev... and he shall know no fear."
They were never advertised. Of course most players probably didn't know they existed. the percentage of players who use the forums and are always up to date on every feature of the game without it being waved in their face is about 1-2%
People have the comprehension skills and attention span of a drunken mushroom, at least that is what I have to assume when a major point stated by those responsible for removing the clusters was that people got lost in them. And when we design a game for people that get lost on a square shaped map without obstructions or objects whatsoever I have a really hard time arguing in favour of systems that do not spell everything out for you, I know.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
Ticks me off when I keep reading people say you cant monitize the Foundry. Medium to High level foundry content keeps the REAL Star Trek fans coming back, buying ships and gear, not that they need it to complete Foundry stuff, but you usually felt really powerful with average gear in Foundry missions. Any content keeps the money flowing in, and a quality foundry that the devs actually put 75% effort into would be well worth the investment.
Like I said earlier in thread, PAY the authors for quality content, bigger dil tip options and a stipend of 1000 Zen a month per high quality mission if Cryptic feels they can feature it. We never got the author Follow system that would be a HUGE help to getting and maintaining the best foundry authors, who'd be inspired to make more good content if they knew they had a following that would quickly send new missions to the top of the community charts.
Another thing that just dawned on me, we could bring Genesis back, with foundry community help. In addition to plugging regular foundry mission award winners into a new cluster system, we could also have Foundry template missions. Its rare to find authors that can create epic missions from scratch, but surely we have tons of decent creative players that could take the old cluster missions, and make minor tweaks to them, to feel different, and Cryptic plugs those into the cluster rotation as well.
Imagine having the plot laid out, with most of the functionality locked in. But you let the players pick the planet map, move some building props around, add a few extra to the base set pieces that HAVE to be there, pick the look of the Maguffin from a list of props, edit the names of the ships, species, character names, looks, clothes. Places to edit the dialogue here and there in and around the locked in text critical to the basic plot. Youd then get a TON of cluster missions that varied much more than the original Genesis system did, because you are adding 1/3 player creativity into the formula of each mission. Players couldnt turn the templates into exploiters, and youd get a lot of playable approved content with only 1/3 the creative work that foundry authors do now.
STO: @AGNT009 Since Dec 2010
Capt. Will Conquest of the U.S.S. Crusader
Also, keep the Foundry template missions fresh. Each selected template mission runs for 3 months, Cryptic pays the winners 600 zen for 3 months of play. After 3 months, new winning missions are plugged in and they get their limelight. But a fully created mission that gets spotlighted gets 1000 zen a month for as long as Cryptic feels it adds special value to their mission library. And by template winners, I mean authors who took their edits seriously, no stupid USS KillsRus ship names, stuff like that.
STO: @AGNT009 Since Dec 2010
Capt. Will Conquest of the U.S.S. Crusader
I personally would like to see "exploration" handled as a progressive system where you do missions to unlock more maps and special encounters.
You'd start by charting an unexplored cluster, which eventually unlocks the discovery of an inhabited planet and leads to a first contact. From there, you learn of a legend of another starfaring race which leads you to an uninhabited class M planet with ruins on it. On that planet, you start building an outpost and then supporting a small colony while you unlock the mysteries of the ruins. Like a fleet holding, the outpost/colony would develop over time but ought to be somewhat flexible about what structures/features get built and in what order. You would be involved in helping the colony survive a series of events and near disasters.
Ideally, it would take a long time to complete. It might or might not be a multi-player effort. The Devs could theoretically build it up over time and add new elements to it. I would expect that the fully-realized world would be the same for every character, but flexible in how you get to that point for each individual.
It would be an undertaking worthy of its own expansion. That's my vision. Will we see anything like that? Don't know. I'm not going to drive myself nuts worrying about it.
Part of the issue, I think, is that people have different notions of what 'exploration' and 'new content' should be.
Some people want fully-scripted content of a style and tone similar to the existing TV series(es). Some are unhappy that the devs are unwilling or unable to produce this for them in sufficient quantities, believing that to be part of the devs' job, while others feel that the player-populated Foundry is an adequate or even superior substitute to a few dev-produced Featured Episodes per season.
Others don't want any sort of fully-scripted content, as they want to create and imagine their own stories rather than play something that the devs or another player came up with. They want a wide-open, procedural framework, a skeletal structure upon which they can hang their own narrative. They also enjoy the randomness, to whatever degree it is present, rather than having every detail of a given episode being exactly the same every time it's replayed. Even a small set of dice tables can suffice for this group, though of course they'd like more complexity than that bare minimum.
They were never advertised. Of course most players probably didn't know they existed. the percentage of players who use the forums and are always up to date on every feature of the game without it being waved in their face is about 1-2%
People have the comprehension skills and attention span of a drunken mushroom, at least that is what I have to assume when a major point stated by those responsible for removing the clusters was that people got lost in them. And when we design a game for people that get lost on a square shaped map without obstructions or objects whatsoever I have a really hard time arguing in favour of systems that do not spell everything out for you, I know.
It was impossible to get lost in the exploration clusters. No offense to the devs, but that was a lame, TRIBBLE excuse to remove them. Nothing more, nothing less. They could have been upfront about their reasons for the removal, or just kept quiet about their reasons, rather than giving one that insults our intelligence.
C'mon people this game is going on six years old and Cryptic is still dangling the exploration carrot in front of us as they did with pvp for five years. "update in the works", "ideas are on paper", "we're having many discussions", "something we want to do in the future" all taken right out of book of "replies to pvp questions". If I had told you six years ago that there will still be no real meaningful exploration in a Star Trek game by 2016 would you have believed me? I doubt it, True more people want exploration then ever wanted a pvp revamp so why are we getting the same excuses over the YEARS? It's simple Cryptic don't know what to do and refuse to take a risk heaven forbid a part of the game that's not monetized, anyway it should be clear to anyone not living in the delusional Cryptic bubble that exploration is now the new pvp nothing will ever be done at the six year mark and still no firm commitment just the good 'ol "it's "on the white board" or "scheduling conflicts" yeah right six years of "scheduling conflicts" Ok guys defend it
I cannot find fault with this statement spot on Op.
I personally would like to see "exploration" handled as a progressive system where you do missions to unlock more maps and special encounters.
You'd start by charting an unexplored cluster, which eventually unlocks the discovery of an inhabited planet and leads to a first contact. From there, you learn of a legend of another starfaring race which leads you to an uninhabited class M planet with ruins on it. On that planet, you start building an outpost and then supporting a small colony while you unlock the mysteries of the ruins. Like a fleet holding, the outpost/colony would develop over time but ought to be somewhat flexible about what structures/features get built and in what order. You would be involved in helping the colony survive a series of events and near disasters.
Ideally, it would take a long time to complete. It might or might not be a multi-player effort. The Devs could theoretically build it up over time and add new elements to it. I would expect that the fully-realized world would be the same for every character, but flexible in how you get to that point for each individual.
It would be an undertaking worthy of its own expansion. That's my vision. Will we see anything like that? Don't know. I'm not going to drive myself nuts worrying about it.
This here sounds pretty great. I'd like something like that, plus some of the ideas I head to keep trackof your progress and ideally have it for every star cluster/deep space region so you have different colonies to attend to and different stuff to discover. While the colonies thenselves can be standardized like ship interiors I'd feel great motivation to do that with randomized/varying hazards and events to take care of
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
I personally would like to see "exploration" handled as a progressive system where you do missions to unlock more maps and special encounters.
You'd start by charting an unexplored cluster, which eventually unlocks the discovery of an inhabited planet and leads to a first contact. From there, you learn of a legend of another starfaring race which leads you to an uninhabited class M planet with ruins on it. On that planet, you start building an outpost and then supporting a small colony while you unlock the mysteries of the ruins. Like a fleet holding, the outpost/colony would develop over time but ought to be somewhat flexible about what structures/features get built and in what order. You would be involved in helping the colony survive a series of events and near disasters.
Ideally, it would take a long time to complete. It might or might not be a multi-player effort. The Devs could theoretically build it up over time and add new elements to it. I would expect that the fully-realized world would be the same for every character, but flexible in how you get to that point for each individual.
It would be an undertaking worthy of its own expansion. That's my vision. Will we see anything like that? Don't know. I'm not going to drive myself nuts worrying about it.
This here sounds pretty great. I'd like something like that, plus some of the ideas I head to keep trackof your progress and ideally have it for every star cluster/deep space region so you have different colonies to attend to and different stuff to discover. While the colonies thenselves can be standardized like ship interiors I'd feel great motivation to do that with randomized/varying hazards and events to take care of
Unfortunately, I can't see them creating multiple colony systems like this. Database storage becomes an issue, not to mention download size and map complexity.
So it ultimately boils down to "pseudo-exploration" if there's only one exploration "cluster". But it would be a more comprehensive experience than tacking a bunch of randomness together and calling it exploration. Having that First Contact experience is essential, I think, and adding a buildable colony helps satisfy the building itch for people who don't have the patience for the Foundry. The charting piece could be used as an additional way to collect crafting materials.
Unfortunately, I can't see them creating multiple colony systems like this. Database storage becomes an issue, not to mention download size and map complexity.
The magic of procedural generation is that you don't have to store the universe -- you can create billions of systems on the fly with a tiny seed, and then recreate it down to the most minute detail, as much or as little of it as you need, by plugging in the same seed. You don't have to store a huge static map, just an overlay of player alterations (much less daunting). They used something like this for the planetary surfaces in Star Wars Galaxies, back when the tech was more primitive.
Unfortunately, I can't see them creating multiple colony systems like this. Database storage becomes an issue, not to mention download size and map complexity.
The magic of procedural generation is that you don't have to store the universe -- you can create billions of systems on the fly with a tiny seed, and then recreate it down to the most minute detail, as much or as little of it as you need, by plugging in the same seed. You don't have to store a huge static map, just an overlay of player alterations (much less daunting). They used something like this for the planetary surfaces in Star Wars Galaxies, back when the tech was more primitive.
Provided you can actually do the procedural generation quickly enough that it can be hidden behind a loading screen. I wouldn't be so sure of that. If you can't, you have to procedurally generate lots of maps and release them like regular maps. The difference is that the procedural generation might take a few minutes or hours while a "hand-crafted" map might take days or weeks (and bind at least one environment artist to the task).
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
Paying players to create foundry missions? Hell no. The foundry acts as a medium for star trek fans to create special fan fiction type content. Just like trekkies that create scripts, books and other star trek related items in their garage or basement.
The foundry acts as the place that true star trek fans can create their passion and share it with fellow fans, but most of the time you all want to create farm clicky missions.
All the threads are boiling down to the same thing, give me me free TRIBBLE for playing the game.
Provided you can actually do the procedural generation quickly enough that it can be hidden behind a loading screen. I wouldn't be so sure of that. If you can't, you have to procedurally generate lots of maps and release them like regular maps. The difference is that the procedural generation might take a few minutes or hours while a "hand-crafted" map might take days or weeks (and bind at least one environment artist to the task).
I'd have to cut some code to be sure (something I'd rather not do if I'm not getting paid), but it is at least theoretically possible to take the seed and a set of coordinates and generate only what's in line of sight or sensor range of that position, and it wouldn't take measurably longer to load than a static map.
The hard part is building an algorithm that generates planetscapes that are internally consistent, aesthetically pleasing, usable for gameplay, and of sufficient variability that each feels unique. I'm guilty of glossing over just how difficult it is to hit all those goals without the need for artist/modeler/environment designer tweaking. But it's entirely within the realm of the possible.
I know Cryptic has worked on procedural terrain. I think they got hung up on the usability parameter, not being able to deploy generated landscapes without some fairly extensive fixes. And I hope they haven't gotten discouraged and given up. Obviously it's secondary to keeping the theme park up and running -- any reasonable sandbox advocate knows and accepts that. But it's a secondary with unlimited potential.
Comments
- People actually got lost in the exploration clusters. E.g. people that wouldn't have to go there, but who did there anyway, because they could.
- It cost a lot of download size
- It considerably impacted the build/release process. (I wonder if the long time it takes to republish Foundry missions after a season or expansion release might be similar to that.)
You can of course say all these are insuffiicent reasons or could be untrue, but that's what we have to go by.
It seems obvious to me that the clusters were not content used heavily, compared to featured episodes or queued missions.
They were never advertised. Of course most players probably didn't know they existed. the percentage of players who use the forums and are always up to date on every feature of the game without it being waved in their face is about 1-2%
"He shall be my finest warrior, this generic man who was forced upon me.
Like a badass I shall make him look, and in the furnace of war I shall forge him.
he shall be of iron will and steely sinew.
In great armour I shall clad him and with the mightiest weapons he shall be armed.
He will be untouched by plague or disease; no sickness shall blight him.
He shall have such tactics, strategies and machines that no foe will best him in battle.
He is my answer to cryptic logic, he is the Defender of my Romulan Crew.
He is Tovan Khev... and he shall know no fear."
People have the comprehension skills and attention span of a drunken mushroom, at least that is what I have to assume when a major point stated by those responsible for removing the clusters was that people got lost in them. And when we design a game for people that get lost on a square shaped map without obstructions or objects whatsoever I have a really hard time arguing in favour of systems that do not spell everything out for you, I know.
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
Like I said earlier in thread, PAY the authors for quality content, bigger dil tip options and a stipend of 1000 Zen a month per high quality mission if Cryptic feels they can feature it. We never got the author Follow system that would be a HUGE help to getting and maintaining the best foundry authors, who'd be inspired to make more good content if they knew they had a following that would quickly send new missions to the top of the community charts.
Another thing that just dawned on me, we could bring Genesis back, with foundry community help. In addition to plugging regular foundry mission award winners into a new cluster system, we could also have Foundry template missions. Its rare to find authors that can create epic missions from scratch, but surely we have tons of decent creative players that could take the old cluster missions, and make minor tweaks to them, to feel different, and Cryptic plugs those into the cluster rotation as well.
Imagine having the plot laid out, with most of the functionality locked in. But you let the players pick the planet map, move some building props around, add a few extra to the base set pieces that HAVE to be there, pick the look of the Maguffin from a list of props, edit the names of the ships, species, character names, looks, clothes. Places to edit the dialogue here and there in and around the locked in text critical to the basic plot. Youd then get a TON of cluster missions that varied much more than the original Genesis system did, because you are adding 1/3 player creativity into the formula of each mission. Players couldnt turn the templates into exploiters, and youd get a lot of playable approved content with only 1/3 the creative work that foundry authors do now.
Capt. Will Conquest of the U.S.S. Crusader
Capt. Will Conquest of the U.S.S. Crusader
You'd start by charting an unexplored cluster, which eventually unlocks the discovery of an inhabited planet and leads to a first contact. From there, you learn of a legend of another starfaring race which leads you to an uninhabited class M planet with ruins on it. On that planet, you start building an outpost and then supporting a small colony while you unlock the mysteries of the ruins. Like a fleet holding, the outpost/colony would develop over time but ought to be somewhat flexible about what structures/features get built and in what order. You would be involved in helping the colony survive a series of events and near disasters.
Ideally, it would take a long time to complete. It might or might not be a multi-player effort. The Devs could theoretically build it up over time and add new elements to it. I would expect that the fully-realized world would be the same for every character, but flexible in how you get to that point for each individual.
It would be an undertaking worthy of its own expansion. That's my vision. Will we see anything like that? Don't know. I'm not going to drive myself nuts worrying about it.
Some people want fully-scripted content of a style and tone similar to the existing TV series(es). Some are unhappy that the devs are unwilling or unable to produce this for them in sufficient quantities, believing that to be part of the devs' job, while others feel that the player-populated Foundry is an adequate or even superior substitute to a few dev-produced Featured Episodes per season.
Others don't want any sort of fully-scripted content, as they want to create and imagine their own stories rather than play something that the devs or another player came up with. They want a wide-open, procedural framework, a skeletal structure upon which they can hang their own narrative. They also enjoy the randomness, to whatever degree it is present, rather than having every detail of a given episode being exactly the same every time it's replayed. Even a small set of dice tables can suffice for this group, though of course they'd like more complexity than that bare minimum.
It was impossible to get lost in the exploration clusters. No offense to the devs, but that was a lame, TRIBBLE excuse to remove them. Nothing more, nothing less. They could have been upfront about their reasons for the removal, or just kept quiet about their reasons, rather than giving one that insults our intelligence.
I cannot find fault with this statement spot on Op.
This here sounds pretty great. I'd like something like that, plus some of the ideas I head to keep trackof your progress and ideally have it for every star cluster/deep space region so you have different colonies to attend to and different stuff to discover. While the colonies thenselves can be standardized like ship interiors I'd feel great motivation to do that with randomized/varying hazards and events to take care of
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
You win the thread
Unfortunately, I can't see them creating multiple colony systems like this. Database storage becomes an issue, not to mention download size and map complexity.
So it ultimately boils down to "pseudo-exploration" if there's only one exploration "cluster". But it would be a more comprehensive experience than tacking a bunch of randomness together and calling it exploration. Having that First Contact experience is essential, I think, and adding a buildable colony helps satisfy the building itch for people who don't have the patience for the Foundry. The charting piece could be used as an additional way to collect crafting materials.
The magic of procedural generation is that you don't have to store the universe -- you can create billions of systems on the fly with a tiny seed, and then recreate it down to the most minute detail, as much or as little of it as you need, by plugging in the same seed. You don't have to store a huge static map, just an overlay of player alterations (much less daunting). They used something like this for the planetary surfaces in Star Wars Galaxies, back when the tech was more primitive.
The foundry acts as the place that true star trek fans can create their passion and share it with fellow fans, but most of the time you all want to create farm clicky missions.
All the threads are boiling down to the same thing, give me me free TRIBBLE for playing the game.
Also to reduce the odds of having a Borg drone trash talk you like an Orion slaver. That was weird. I head-canoned as one of Hughs people.
I'd have to cut some code to be sure (something I'd rather not do if I'm not getting paid), but it is at least theoretically possible to take the seed and a set of coordinates and generate only what's in line of sight or sensor range of that position, and it wouldn't take measurably longer to load than a static map.
The hard part is building an algorithm that generates planetscapes that are internally consistent, aesthetically pleasing, usable for gameplay, and of sufficient variability that each feels unique. I'm guilty of glossing over just how difficult it is to hit all those goals without the need for artist/modeler/environment designer tweaking. But it's entirely within the realm of the possible.
I know Cryptic has worked on procedural terrain. I think they got hung up on the usability parameter, not being able to deploy generated landscapes without some fairly extensive fixes. And I hope they haven't gotten discouraged and given up. Obviously it's secondary to keeping the theme park up and running -- any reasonable sandbox advocate knows and accepts that. But it's a secondary with unlimited potential.