Apparently I hit a nerve. I keep seeing every version of this argument pop up every week here, on reddit and other places. Each thread starts with the root complaint and than goes off the rails, so let me sum it up:
Feds have all the sci ships, we KDF players want SCI ships.
Cryptic has stated in the past that KDF ships don't sell well, hence why KDF does not get the same number of ships.
If Cryptic changes their mind and makes a true KDF (meaning a klingon ship, not an orion or other species ship). It must have the following, etc etc.
Fed players don't want KDF players have the same level of Sci abilites as they do, then FEDs will not have the advantage in PVP.
Who cares about PVP it has been dead since DR, or depending on how thick your tin foil hat is before then.
Then it all goes back to canon. The kinks are a race of people designed to rage war and conquer, not go around scanning space dust.
Then the true answer comes up, it comes down to DPS. Getting a clear answer on DPS will never happen, this game even has 2 DPS leagues.
Have all the passion you want, instead of producing a rational arguement just call everyone who disagrees with you a troll, create skewed polls to create your "metrics". In the end the real answer to your question is this:
KDF will get a pure science ship when Cryptic releases one.
Or they continue their usual attitude towards non-feds and T6 the existing terrible sci ships, make them horribly subpar again and blame the players because nobody wastes money on them.
Yeah, I expect a bundle of T6 Nebula, Ha'nom, and Varanus, and the Nebula will be decent, and the other two will be weak. :P
Yes, I don't even count subsystem targeting. Sensor Analysis is more valuable!
The inherent subsystem targeting should either be massively revamped or scrapped altogether because as of now it's pointless. Even on T5 & 6 ships it's only rank 1 which is pretty worthless, it can only be used by beams despite the fact some sci ships and others with that skill clearly encourage the use of cannons and on use it even triggers the cooldowns on all your regular beam abilities from boffs.
It's pretty much a waste of space on the UI.
Thank you very much. Every time I'm reminded of the existence of these, I feel a pang of guilt at the fact that I never use them. It's nice to console myself with the thought that they're mostly useless.
My biggest tactical problem is my inability to mash all the buttons fast enough while steering the ship and thinking about everything else.
I'm not against the other factions having good science ships but that is the one thing the federation can call it's own. Same for raiders and warbirds respectively. So while duplicates may exist for the other factions they never are quite as good as the best ones.
So hands off my Vesta! Science is literally the only reason to pick fed over the other two.
I get it, a full faction to which nearly all missions cater to, along with the most canon ships as seen in the show isn't enough for you Feds, so don't throw a bone to the others, but it's always ok if Feds acquire nearly everything else.
*edit to remove out troll bait quote from another member.
I didn't say they couldn't have science ships I just said they shouldn't be the best in the game.
I'm tired of the entitlement of KDF players, those things were KDF only at launch because Cryptic had to rush the game. And I would point out that nothing Romulon was ever given to the other factions except a few inferior yet OP boffs. I would also point out that the KDF still has the best battle cruisers and raiders in the game and Cryptic clearly makes any cross faction versions inferior.
That's all I'm saying, the best science ships should remain fed but that doesn't mean the other factions shouldn't have good ones.
Despite the entitlement bit, which can be argued against Fed players as well, I'm in line with this thinking. KDF and Roms have their individual strengths, Roms could maybe get away with this because for a long long time their DD were "sciencing" the sh**t out of everyone.
The issue with Science and science ships has, in my opinion, always been with the fact that Sci abilities were nerfed to the ground way back when, and that was in part due to the complaining of just how frustrating they were to deal with. For a time *every* experienced player you came across absolutely had to have Sci team on their boff layout to comfortably get through the Romulan portion of the Fed campaign.
Also wanted to point out that Rom Sci ships are already a thing since the inception of faction differences: Ha'nom Guardian and fleet Ha'nom, followed by Dyson Warbirds which as far as I know are on par with their Fed and KDF counterparts.
I distinctly remember one episode where Klingons discussed other honorable paths that didn't all require (or degenerate into) the common mentality of warriors above all else.
Unless one is to assume Klingons and KDF as a whole are completely inept (they are not) and derive their technology and exploration by somehow capturing and reverse engineering the technology of other species and still end up with technological advancements rivaling everyone else, it makes no sense for them to not have scientists, and by definition instruments (including science ships) absolutely necessary for such an undertaking in the first place.
Cryptic really should just revamp their Dyson ships and bundle. Make it T6 in stats; add the 13th seat and Starship Mastery, and grandfather all current bundle owners in at no cost while upping the individual and bundle costs to that of T6 bundles for new players. It's a win for both Cryptic and the players; Cryptic can turn a quick profit off the average Dyson bundle, not TRIBBLE the playerbase (those that do own the bundle), and get some initial T6 sci ships out there with minimal work.
Then if necessary still, use a possible T6 vesta bundle set as the basis for a KDF and Romulan one, but just reuse existing skins. I wouldn't be upset if they reused the Varanus for the KDF side and used the "escort" lower half of the Kara Warbird; the Ha'feh Assault Warbird (Which doesn't have a T5 or T6 as it's now one-half of the Haakona and Kara, and instead of using the upper half, the Ha'apax, that was the lone Sci-vessel for the Romulans at T4).
Cryptic really should just revamp their Dyson ships and bundle. Make it T6 in stats; add the 13th seat and Starship Mastery, and grandfather all current bundle owners in at no cost while upping the individual and bundle costs to that of T6 bundles for new players. It's a win for both Cryptic and the players; Cryptic can turn a quick profit off the average Dyson bundle, not TRIBBLE the playerbase (those that do own the bundle), and get some initial T6 sci ships out there with minimal work.
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T6 Dysons might fit the bill nicely. That would ensure that the KDF would indeed have a decently Klingon (not Gorn) look to it. It did well at T5 and would most likely do well at T6.
Also wanted to point out that Rom Sci ships are already a thing since the inception of faction differences: Ha'nom Guardian and fleet Ha'nom, followed by Dyson Warbirds which as far as I know are on par with their Fed and KDF counterparts.
I distinctly remember one episode where Klingons discussed other honorable paths that didn't all require (or degenerate into) the common mentality of warriors above all else.
Unless one is to assume Klingons and KDF as a whole are completely inept (they are not) and derive their technology and exploration by somehow capturing and reverse engineering the technology of other species and still end up with technological advancements rivaling everyone else, it makes no sense for them to not have scientists, and by definition instruments (including science ships) absolutely necessary for such an undertaking in the first place.
I look forward to the day when I can roll a Klingon science captain embarking on one of those other honorable paths. It's rather hard to defy stereotypes about Klingons being too stupid to make science ships if he captains a Varanus. This as the Fed-trolls are even establishing such stupidity as "canon" where it is NOT. Even reverse engineering must entail putting more brain cells together than they give Romulans and moreso Klingons credit for.
Then it all goes back to canon. The kinks are a race of people designed to rage war and conquer, not go around scanning space dust.
I do like it when that argument pops up, seeing as how all the player science vessels in the game are part-gen murder ships or torp boats. Not a space dust scanner to be seen!
There are two sets of arguments to be made. One involves game balance and the other canon.
If Cryptic can find a profitable way to put something in the game they often will but they also follow canon to a degree. Hence the relative lack of battlecruisers and other extremely tactical vessels in the federation fleet. It being an alliance composed of over 300 species, however, it stands to reason they would have the most variety of vessels and technology at their disposal.
That being said, while they may be the jack of all trades they are the master of none. The singular area that they are not dominated in is science vessels. This is supported by canon as well as game balance.
Just needed to clear that up. I fully support good science ships for all races but each faction should have atleast one speciality.
It's also realistic... if one country develops new tech another will try to duplicate it if they find it useful. But they won't always equal or surpass the original.
Then it all goes back to canon. The kinks are a race of people designed to rage war and conquer, not go around scanning space dust.
I do like it when that argument pops up, seeing as how all the player science vessels in the game are part-gen murder ships or torp boats. Not a space dust scanner to be seen!
Then you validate my earlier point that Kinks want more powerful SCI ships for the sole reason to increase DPS, not for exploration.
Best KDF Sci Ship - the Kor - a T6 Bird of Prey. Enhanced Battle Cloak to fire your Sci abilities while invisable, ALL Universal seating, super fast, gets a Flank bonus . . . I'm primarily a KDF player and couldn't ask for anything more. Don't want it for Sci? Cool. All Universal Seating! - Do what you WANT with it.
the ones that ask for heavy sci on all factions equal , can't understand the game or even the ideea of faction ... id like a Scimitar for feds ... that would be balanced right ? i don't ask to much ... or a raptor ... or a intel bc ... and battle cloak on all ships plz.
the ones that ask for heavy sci on all factions equal , can't understand the game or even the ideea of faction ... id like a Scimitar for feds ... that would be balanced right ? i don't ask to much ... or a raptor ... or a intel bc ... and battle cloak on all ships plz.
I seem to recall a federation event recently that involved creating a new carrier....(I call it a federation event since there was no kdf or rom ship designs as well)
Balance is something that will never exist and in turn every attempt to create it ruins the game further, federation has a ton of stuff and I really don't see how it would seem unreasonable to at least give the Klingons and Romulans 1 science vessel worthy of being a science vessel, I mean hell the new secondary deflectors are 100% pointless for those 2 factions atm from the new fleet lab holding.
And as for some other arguments I've breezed through, Klingons did do a lot of science stuff same as Romulans, suggest everyone rewatch all the t.v. series, that believes otherwise.
I mean hell, you would think an entire ship power source that relies on singularity manipulation would be more science oriented in the first place...
And since we want to talk about who gets what, lets also look at the fact that Romulan players have 1 bridge option and no trophy spots at all on their ships, where as the Federation has how many bridges to choose from? This is going on 3 years now just saying. I could go on about how much or in this case how little the KDF and Romulan fractions have compared to the feds in terms of ships, ship interiors, costume options, but I find it rather pointless to resurrect the same dead horse to kill it yet again.
It's not unreasonable to ask for a decent science ship. Most of us agree with our minds but not our wallets.
This is the problem more than anything.
I have no doubt they will try again with a multi-pack in the future they just need to be given time. They can't mass release ships, they do it on a very particular schedule because it makes up the majority of their income.
Comments
Apparently I hit a nerve. I keep seeing every version of this argument pop up every week here, on reddit and other places. Each thread starts with the root complaint and than goes off the rails, so let me sum it up:
Feds have all the sci ships, we KDF players want SCI ships.
Cryptic has stated in the past that KDF ships don't sell well, hence why KDF does not get the same number of ships.
If Cryptic changes their mind and makes a true KDF (meaning a klingon ship, not an orion or other species ship). It must have the following, etc etc.
Fed players don't want KDF players have the same level of Sci abilites as they do, then FEDs will not have the advantage in PVP.
Who cares about PVP it has been dead since DR, or depending on how thick your tin foil hat is before then.
Then it all goes back to canon. The kinks are a race of people designed to rage war and conquer, not go around scanning space dust.
Then the true answer comes up, it comes down to DPS. Getting a clear answer on DPS will never happen, this game even has 2 DPS leagues.
Have all the passion you want, instead of producing a rational arguement just call everyone who disagrees with you a troll, create skewed polls to create your "metrics". In the end the real answer to your question is this:
KDF will get a pure science ship when Cryptic releases one.
Well, I want trolls to curl up in a ball and go away. Unfortunately I think you are more likely to get what you want.
--Red Annorax
Thank you very much. Every time I'm reminded of the existence of these, I feel a pang of guilt at the fact that I never use them. It's nice to console myself with the thought that they're mostly useless.
My biggest tactical problem is my inability to mash all the buttons fast enough while steering the ship and thinking about everything else.
*edit to remove out troll bait quote from another member.
Despite the entitlement bit, which can be argued against Fed players as well, I'm in line with this thinking. KDF and Roms have their individual strengths, Roms could maybe get away with this because for a long long time their DD were "sciencing" the sh**t out of everyone.
The issue with Science and science ships has, in my opinion, always been with the fact that Sci abilities were nerfed to the ground way back when, and that was in part due to the complaining of just how frustrating they were to deal with. For a time *every* experienced player you came across absolutely had to have Sci team on their boff layout to comfortably get through the Romulan portion of the Fed campaign.
Man.. those were the days.. Or were they?
I distinctly remember one episode where Klingons discussed other honorable paths that didn't all require (or degenerate into) the common mentality of warriors above all else.
Unless one is to assume Klingons and KDF as a whole are completely inept (they are not) and derive their technology and exploration by somehow capturing and reverse engineering the technology of other species and still end up with technological advancements rivaling everyone else, it makes no sense for them to not have scientists, and by definition instruments (including science ships) absolutely necessary for such an undertaking in the first place.
Then if necessary still, use a possible T6 vesta bundle set as the basis for a KDF and Romulan one, but just reuse existing skins. I wouldn't be upset if they reused the Varanus for the KDF side and used the "escort" lower half of the Kara Warbird; the Ha'feh Assault Warbird (Which doesn't have a T5 or T6 as it's now one-half of the Haakona and Kara, and instead of using the upper half, the Ha'apax, that was the lone Sci-vessel for the Romulans at T4).
T6 Dysons might fit the bill nicely. That would ensure that the KDF would indeed have a decently Klingon (not Gorn) look to it. It did well at T5 and would most likely do well at T6.
I look forward to the day when I can roll a Klingon science captain embarking on one of those other honorable paths. It's rather hard to defy stereotypes about Klingons being too stupid to make science ships if he captains a Varanus. This as the Fed-trolls are even establishing such stupidity as "canon" where it is NOT. Even reverse engineering must entail putting more brain cells together than they give Romulans and moreso Klingons credit for.
I do like it when that argument pops up, seeing as how all the player science vessels in the game are part-gen murder ships or torp boats. Not a space dust scanner to be seen!
If Cryptic can find a profitable way to put something in the game they often will but they also follow canon to a degree. Hence the relative lack of battlecruisers and other extremely tactical vessels in the federation fleet. It being an alliance composed of over 300 species, however, it stands to reason they would have the most variety of vessels and technology at their disposal.
That being said, while they may be the jack of all trades they are the master of none. The singular area that they are not dominated in is science vessels. This is supported by canon as well as game balance.
Just needed to clear that up. I fully support good science ships for all races but each faction should have atleast one speciality.
It's also realistic... if one country develops new tech another will try to duplicate it if they find it useful. But they won't always equal or surpass the original.
Then you validate my earlier point that Kinks want more powerful SCI ships for the sole reason to increase DPS, not for exploration.
I seem to recall a federation event recently that involved creating a new carrier....(I call it a federation event since there was no kdf or rom ship designs as well)
Balance is something that will never exist and in turn every attempt to create it ruins the game further, federation has a ton of stuff and I really don't see how it would seem unreasonable to at least give the Klingons and Romulans 1 science vessel worthy of being a science vessel, I mean hell the new secondary deflectors are 100% pointless for those 2 factions atm from the new fleet lab holding.
And as for some other arguments I've breezed through, Klingons did do a lot of science stuff same as Romulans, suggest everyone rewatch all the t.v. series, that believes otherwise.
I mean hell, you would think an entire ship power source that relies on singularity manipulation would be more science oriented in the first place...
And since we want to talk about who gets what, lets also look at the fact that Romulan players have 1 bridge option and no trophy spots at all on their ships, where as the Federation has how many bridges to choose from? This is going on 3 years now just saying. I could go on about how much or in this case how little the KDF and Romulan fractions have compared to the feds in terms of ships, ship interiors, costume options, but I find it rather pointless to resurrect the same dead horse to kill it yet again.
YES
This is the problem more than anything.
I have no doubt they will try again with a multi-pack in the future they just need to be given time. They can't mass release ships, they do it on a very particular schedule because it makes up the majority of their income.