I've always thought a federation civil war would make a fantastic series. Given the current political climate in the United States and elsewhere it could be used to illustrate a number of points about democracy, racism, arrogance etc. While still possessing dark and action oriented aspects.
Time to TRIBBLE slap the federation out of its unrealistic Utopia.
Wow you are completely missing the point of Star Trek.
You don't need to crumble the UFP to explore the issues you mentioned. And Star Trek proper has touched on those issues various times in the past without destroying the foundation of galactic society in the process.
Also, frankly, your idea sounds depressing as hell. I don't want to watch a Trek series that's going to depress me with the premise. It just sounds like another boring, cliche attempt at being edgy, and that baloney should just die out already.
Being dark for darkness' sake isn't interesting or compelling; it's an easy out and a cheap writing tactic. It's a lot harder and more compelling to create characters and stories that are grounded in goodness that are constantly challenged by darkness, to see how they prevail. THAT is harder to do well, and ultimately makes for much better media.
i hope its not a reboot and that they make clear that romulas never got destroyed. I hope they wipe the new JJ trek from the cannon time line.
The JJ canon is horrid I will agree. I think it was mentioned somewhere that those movies were more or less a "what if" scenario, and are irrelevant as far as canon goes.
That's the point, evil and darkness aren't always found in other places. Sometimes they're in your own backyard.
That line is so cliche I think I just barfed.
And once again, they've done that old trope in Trek plenty of times before. Like, HOW many rogue admirals and captains decided to unilaterally get innocent people into trouble, or hide devastating secrets, or hijack a ship and chase after the ships of unfriendly neighbors, or attempt to take over Space Government in a military coup?
Like, it's been done before. Trek handled it. And it did it in a way that worked it all out and resolved the issue for that scenario.
I don't mind a little trouble in paradise every now and then, so to speak. But please, leave my utopian future alone. Too much grimdark nonsense is floating around these days because people think that's "realistic". It's not. It's lazy and dumb writing, and pretty much goes in the opposite direction of Star Trek's entire premise.
This civil war inside the federation is the plot to Renegades which CBS rejected. But which you can still watch.
Captain Jean-Luc Picard: "We think we've come so far. Torture of heretics, burning of witches, it's all ancient history. Then - before you can blink an eye - suddenly it threatens to start all over again."
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."
Anyone who accuses anyone else of "missing the point of Trek" needs to get a grip/life. There is no singular "point" of Trek. A lot of different people have made Trek at this point, including JJ. They all have their own points, ideas, and agendas.
Anyone who accuses anyone else of "missing the point of Trek" needs to get a grip/life. There is no singular "point" of Trek. A lot of different people have made Trek at this point, including JJ. They all have their own points, ideas, and agendas.
I hope you're not aiming that Withering Comment [x2Acc][CrtH] array at me, Nagus!
Because while you are right, I'd like to point out at least that I'm not mentioning the "point" of Trek, but the premise of it. And Star Trek, as a franchise, does indeed have some key features of the entire premise of the franchise (as I'm sure you know).
And as I am trying to state, one of the key items of Trek's premise is the fact that their society is, in all practical terms comparative to ours, a utopian one. Yeah it has its hiccups from time to time, mostly external, though occasionally internal.
But one of the central pillars of the idea of Star Trek is that humans Got Better and continue to Be Better. To strive for excellence and integrity in the face of adversity.
Like, that is pretty much one of the central features of the series, across all boards. You take that out and you're left with.... well, I dunno, but not Star Trek, I think.
It's kinda why, at least here, I'm balking at the notion of a Trek series that starts off with the idea that "evil and darkness aren't always found in other places. Sometimes they're in your own backyard.", haha. It's just been done already, in Trek and elsewhere.
Too much grimdark nonsense is floating around these days because people think that's "realistic". It's not. It's lazy and dumb writing, and pretty much goes in the opposite direction of Star Trek's entire premise.
^ This guy gets it.
And yes, a brighter future IS what Star Trek was about, as created by Gene Roddenberry. The 60s were a time of social and political upheaval, amid the backdrop of the very real risk of annihilation. Star Trek showed a hopeful future where hey, guess what, the injustices of the past got resolved and we didn't nuke ourselves into oblivion tyvm.
I am more worried about that CBS Access, read the article in Startrek.com, seems like only a "preview" or something like that would be on TV, then pay-to-watch episodes in CBS Access....
Hast thou not gone against sincerity
Hast thou not felt ashamed of thy words and deeds
Hast thou not lacked vigor
Hast thou exerted all possible efforts
Hast thou not become slothful
I am more worried about that CBS Access, read the article in Startrek.com, seems like only a "preview" or something like that would be on TV, then pay-to-watch episodes in CBS Access....
Is that what it actually sounds like? I mean, I admit, that sounds like all kinds of dumb, but I would find it super hard to imagine that the show itself wouldn't just air on TV as normal, y'know? Like, no amount of online streaming is gonna match hard television numbers.
What it DOES make me worry about, though, is the future of the series' fate on Netflix.
Anyone who accuses anyone else of "missing the point of Trek" needs to get a grip/life. There is no singular "point" of Trek. A lot of different people have made Trek at this point, including JJ. They all have their own points, ideas, and agendas.
I hope you're not aiming that Withering Comment [x2Acc][CrtH] array at me, Nagus!
Because while you are right, I'd like to point out at least that I'm not mentioning the "point" of Trek, but the premise of it. And Star Trek, as a franchise, does indeed have some key features of the entire premise of the franchise (as I'm sure you know).
And as I am trying to state, one of the key items of Trek's premise is the fact that their society is, in all practical terms comparative to ours, a utopian one. Yeah it has its hiccups from time to time, mostly external, though occasionally internal.
But one of the central pillars of the idea of Star Trek is that humans Got Better and continue to Be Better. To strive for excellence and integrity in the face of adversity.
Like, that is pretty much one of the central features of the series, across all boards. You take that out and you're left with.... well, I dunno, but not Star Trek, I think.
It's kinda why, at least here, I'm balking at the notion of a Trek series that starts off with the idea that "evil and darkness aren't always found in other places. Sometimes they're in your own backyard.", haha. It's just been done already, in Trek and elsewhere.
The beam is simply being fired, so it is up to each person not to fly into it
Seriously though, one guy wants a dark themed Trek show. Ok. I don't. He's not "wrong", he's just a guy with an opinion. That doesn't mean he doesn't get Trek or less of a fan than me. We just have different tastes.
I am more worried about that CBS Access, read the article in Startrek.com, seems like only a "preview" or something like that would be on TV, then pay-to-watch episodes in CBS Access....
Disney has Star Wars: Rebels as an "exclusive" on their pay channel, doesn't stop most folks from seeing it anyway without subtracting from their bank accounts.
The Internetz is a wonderful thing.
STO Member since February 2009. I Was A Trekkie Before It Was Cool ... Sept. 8th, 1966 ... Not To Mention Before Most Folks Around Here Were Born! Forever a STO Veteran-Minion
I can only hope the new Star Trek show is set long after TNG/DS9/VOY and the last major event, the Dominion War. I say that so the show won't have its hands tied as if doing a prequel or a setting set during the older shows. A later setting means far more options are open.
For all we *know*, a contract could have been signed last night licensing some of the JJ verse to CBS. We don't really *know* much of anything at this point, except there will be a new series. Two episodes to air on regular tv, the rest on CBS's streaming service that I never heard of and will not use. Good luck with that.
That said, my wish is that it's set in the prime universe, with a fully intact Romulus and Vulcan.
If it's great, then great. If it ain't, then I still got TNG re-runs on BBCA for some reason. I guess because Patrick Stewart is British.
They're not really gone, as long as we remember them
It clearly says that it's not related to the JJ movies.
actually it just says not related to the new movie... it could still be in the jj-verse. Which imo is likely because it lets CBS and others give trek a "fresh new look and style" and allows them to not be beholden to previous series/canon. I half expect that "fresh new look and style" to continue the dumbed down action experience of the jj-verse regardless of if its set there or not
It clearly says that it's not related to the JJ movies.
actually it just says not related to the new movie... it could still be in the jj-verse. Which imo is likely because it lets CBS and others give trek a "fresh new look and style" and allows them to not be beholden to previous series/canon. I half expect that "fresh new look and style" to continue the dumbed down action experience of the jj-verse regardless of if its set there or not
Many are not aware, but the Trek IP rights are actually split between CBS and Paramount. CBS has the prime timeline only, and Paramount has the JJ-verse only. So unless CBS and Paramount have struck a deal, CBS actually couldn't make a TV show about the JJ-verse even if they wanted to. And until any such deal is announced, the facts we have right now say this can't be a JJ-verse show since CBS is making it.
Disney has Star Wars: Rebels as an "exclusive" on their pay channel, doesn't stop most folks from seeing it anyway without subtracting from their bank accounts.
The Internetz is a wonderful thing.
Yeah, I use my father-in-law's TV account to stream it on my iPad. For most everything else, I use ettv's torrents.
Why would that be? The whole point of Star Trek is to boldly go and explore new things so why not explore the one thing none of the series would? The Federation itself.
Civil wars always make for good drama and that would be multiplied exponentially by star Treks signature taking on of real world issues. Terrorism, political ideology, lack of open-mindedness about other cultures etc.
What more could you want from Star Trek than an allegory about modern society?
The only thing I hate more than dumbed down action television like JJ Trek is when the writer and/or producer decides to inject political doctrine into their TV show and force feed it to the audience.
Most everything that comes out of Hollywood is liberal, and what they think is wrong isn't necessarily what is actually wrong. Even if they were able to take a conservative standpoint on things, I'm still looking to watch a science fiction series for entertainment purposes, and not a propaganda piece to reinforce my world view. I don't need Hollywood to reinforce my world view, or to question it for that matter.
Just give me some pure, uncut science fiction. They should hire a writer who knows how to tell a good story, not a spinster with an axe to grind.
I am more worried about that CBS Access, read the article in Startrek.com, seems like only a "preview" or something like that would be on TV, then pay-to-watch episodes in CBS Access....
It looks like it's $6 a month and you can try one week for free. I will probably wait until the new Star Trek is out to try my one week free. If it's any good I will pay the sub.
I already have Netflix and this is cheaper, but I don't know what CBS's library is like. I might just keep both depending on how it is.
I'm extremely conservative myself so I understand your hesitation but Star Trek has a long history of social commentary through allegory, So it's nothing new.
For the record my intent would be to have normal stories throughout similar to DS9 and Voyager but still have the overarching plot of the war and make a few general points about power corrupting and people closing off and living in their own little perfect world while ignoring atrocities all around them.
Should Paramount/CBS actually take a page from the Disney/Marvel handbook and want to build a shared universe, the new series could very well be in the JJ verse, where it wouldn't have the restrictions of prime universe canon.
Is JJ trek an option here? One of the new co-writers is on board but it is a CBS project (as others have pointed out).
The setting questions though I think are a little irrelevant. They could set the new show as a offshoot of the new NCC-1701 but it would face the same challenges regarding style, presentation, and tone that a post-Nemesis show would. It would just have to contend with a different setting and available set of known characters. What matters to the question "is it a good show (that justifies using the Star Trek universe)" would still be very dependent on how it's approached.
Bipedal mammal and senior Foundry author.
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Should Paramount/CBS actually take a page from the Disney/Marvel handbook and want to build a shared universe, the new series could very well be in the JJ verse, where it wouldn't have the restrictions of prime universe canon.
Is JJ trek an option here? One of the new co-writers is on board but it is a CBS project (as others have pointed out).
Actually, former writer. He left and is not even involved with the new movie at all.
Why would that be? The whole point of Star Trek is to boldly go and explore new things so why not explore the one thing none of the series would? The Federation itself.
Civil wars always make for good drama and that would be multiplied exponentially by star Treks signature taking on of real world issues. Terrorism, political ideology, lack of open-mindedness about other cultures etc.
What more could you want from Star Trek than an allegory about modern society?
The only thing I hate more than dumbed down action television like JJ Trek is when the writer and/or producer decides to inject political doctrine into their TV show and force feed it to the audience.
Most everything that comes out of Hollywood is liberal, and what they think is wrong isn't necessarily what is actually wrong. Even if they were able to take a conservative standpoint on things, I'm still looking to watch a science fiction series for entertainment purposes, and not a propaganda piece to reinforce my world view. I don't need Hollywood to reinforce my world view, or to question it for that matter.
Just give me some pure, uncut science fiction. They should hire a writer who knows how to tell a good story, not a spinster with an axe to grind.
I mean, uh.
Gene Roddenberry ostensibly created Star Trek to showcase his plethora of political ideas and ideals. Like, that's not even something that can really be argued so much as it's already been admitted quite some time ago.
Like, the UFP itself is some kinda odd post-apocalyptic trade-based socialized democracy of some kind, and always has been? Roddenberry himself was super-to-the-Left on the political spectrum, which is why so many progressive ideas where integrated into the show's canon.
Like, the thing is, humans in Star Trek are nothing like us modern humans. They've moved past issues like racism, bigotry, xenophobia, harsh political ideologies, all that jazz. The things that drive them are largely personally motivated, as their technology level, and the easiness of its availability, have essentially removed any of the problems we currently face in our times. Plus, the war-torn past of Earth itself, along with several other planets in the UFP, make them very open to being accepting of others because of their differences, and not in spite of them.
Enterprise messed with this on some level, though, what with the very humano-centric and xenophobic Terra Nova organization episodes, but those guys were ultimately defeated, and it looks like that isolationist and alien-hating attitude died out when they did, as it never again surfaced in Star Trek history.
Like I said, Trek has already done that kind of thing to death, without compromising the social structure of the UFP. What you're describing pretty much can't happen in Trek anymore; it simply stretches the believability of it considering all the history beforehand.
The allegories can and have been made in the past, though, using other alien cultures as the prime examples, but it's only cropped up in a very small few, isolated incidents in UFP history (like in DS9 with that dude who wanted to hijack the UFP, military coup-style).
Or hell, just look at the Maquis. Former UFP citizens who fought against territory concessions made to the Cardassians, but also a lot of them were shown to really hate Cardassians for a variety of reasons.
Or the Kohn-Ma, who wanted to kick everyone who wasn't Bajoran off of Bajor, and were willing to blow up innocent people to do it.
I'm sure such issues will come up again in the new series, much like they have before. But it won't be in the form of the UFP turning on itself over reasons like "everyone hating everyone else all of a sudden because xenophobia".
Like, the UFP itself is some kinda odd post-apocalyptic trade-based socialized democracy of some kind
Um no. There was no apocalypse; that mankind learned to get along and avoid mutually assured destruction was the point of the whole show.
TOS did mention a WWIII, but it was clearly not a nuclear exchange. Some people have headcanoned that must refer instead to the Eugenics Wars, which gave us Khan Noonien Singh.
TOS did mention a WWIII, but it was clearly not a nuclear exchange.
...you might want to review First Contact.
Bipedal mammal and senior Foundry author.
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
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Comments
Wow you are completely missing the point of Star Trek.
You don't need to crumble the UFP to explore the issues you mentioned. And Star Trek proper has touched on those issues various times in the past without destroying the foundation of galactic society in the process.
Also, frankly, your idea sounds depressing as hell. I don't want to watch a Trek series that's going to depress me with the premise. It just sounds like another boring, cliche attempt at being edgy, and that baloney should just die out already.
Being dark for darkness' sake isn't interesting or compelling; it's an easy out and a cheap writing tactic. It's a lot harder and more compelling to create characters and stories that are grounded in goodness that are constantly challenged by darkness, to see how they prevail. THAT is harder to do well, and ultimately makes for much better media.
The JJ canon is horrid I will agree. I think it was mentioned somewhere that those movies were more or less a "what if" scenario, and are irrelevant as far as canon goes.
That line is so cliche I think I just barfed.
And once again, they've done that old trope in Trek plenty of times before. Like, HOW many rogue admirals and captains decided to unilaterally get innocent people into trouble, or hide devastating secrets, or hijack a ship and chase after the ships of unfriendly neighbors, or attempt to take over Space Government in a military coup?
Like, it's been done before. Trek handled it. And it did it in a way that worked it all out and resolved the issue for that scenario.
I don't mind a little trouble in paradise every now and then, so to speak. But please, leave my utopian future alone. Too much grimdark nonsense is floating around these days because people think that's "realistic". It's not. It's lazy and dumb writing, and pretty much goes in the opposite direction of Star Trek's entire premise.
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
I hope you're not aiming that Withering Comment [x2Acc][CrtH] array at me, Nagus!
Because while you are right, I'd like to point out at least that I'm not mentioning the "point" of Trek, but the premise of it. And Star Trek, as a franchise, does indeed have some key features of the entire premise of the franchise (as I'm sure you know).
And as I am trying to state, one of the key items of Trek's premise is the fact that their society is, in all practical terms comparative to ours, a utopian one. Yeah it has its hiccups from time to time, mostly external, though occasionally internal.
But one of the central pillars of the idea of Star Trek is that humans Got Better and continue to Be Better. To strive for excellence and integrity in the face of adversity.
Like, that is pretty much one of the central features of the series, across all boards. You take that out and you're left with.... well, I dunno, but not Star Trek, I think.
It's kinda why, at least here, I'm balking at the notion of a Trek series that starts off with the idea that "evil and darkness aren't always found in other places. Sometimes they're in your own backyard.", haha. It's just been done already, in Trek and elsewhere.
And yes, a brighter future IS what Star Trek was about, as created by Gene Roddenberry. The 60s were a time of social and political upheaval, amid the backdrop of the very real risk of annihilation. Star Trek showed a hopeful future where hey, guess what, the injustices of the past got resolved and we didn't nuke ourselves into oblivion tyvm.
Hast thou not felt ashamed of thy words and deeds
Hast thou not lacked vigor
Hast thou exerted all possible efforts
Hast thou not become slothful
If a mod sees this sometime, please delete!
Is that what it actually sounds like? I mean, I admit, that sounds like all kinds of dumb, but I would find it super hard to imagine that the show itself wouldn't just air on TV as normal, y'know? Like, no amount of online streaming is gonna match hard television numbers.
What it DOES make me worry about, though, is the future of the series' fate on Netflix.
The beam is simply being fired, so it is up to each person not to fly into it
Seriously though, one guy wants a dark themed Trek show. Ok. I don't. He's not "wrong", he's just a guy with an opinion. That doesn't mean he doesn't get Trek or less of a fan than me. We just have different tastes.
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
Disney has Star Wars: Rebels as an "exclusive" on their pay channel, doesn't stop most folks from seeing it anyway without subtracting from their bank accounts.
The Internetz is a wonderful thing.
I Was A Trekkie Before It Was Cool ... Sept. 8th, 1966 ... Not To Mention Before Most Folks Around Here Were Born!
Forever a STO Veteran-Minion
That said, my wish is that it's set in the prime universe, with a fully intact Romulus and Vulcan.
If it's great, then great. If it ain't, then I still got TNG re-runs on BBCA for some reason. I guess because Patrick Stewart is British.
Rayzee
excellentawesome#4589
torgaddon101
raeat
actually it just says not related to the new movie... it could still be in the jj-verse. Which imo is likely because it lets CBS and others give trek a "fresh new look and style" and allows them to not be beholden to previous series/canon. I half expect that "fresh new look and style" to continue the dumbed down action experience of the jj-verse regardless of if its set there or not
Many are not aware, but the Trek IP rights are actually split between CBS and Paramount. CBS has the prime timeline only, and Paramount has the JJ-verse only. So unless CBS and Paramount have struck a deal, CBS actually couldn't make a TV show about the JJ-verse even if they wanted to. And until any such deal is announced, the facts we have right now say this can't be a JJ-verse show since CBS is making it.
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
Yeah, I use my father-in-law's TV account to stream it on my iPad. For most everything else, I use ettv's torrents.
The only thing I hate more than dumbed down action television like JJ Trek is when the writer and/or producer decides to inject political doctrine into their TV show and force feed it to the audience.
Most everything that comes out of Hollywood is liberal, and what they think is wrong isn't necessarily what is actually wrong. Even if they were able to take a conservative standpoint on things, I'm still looking to watch a science fiction series for entertainment purposes, and not a propaganda piece to reinforce my world view. I don't need Hollywood to reinforce my world view, or to question it for that matter.
Just give me some pure, uncut science fiction. They should hire a writer who knows how to tell a good story, not a spinster with an axe to grind.
It looks like it's $6 a month and you can try one week for free. I will probably wait until the new Star Trek is out to try my one week free. If it's any good I will pay the sub.
I already have Netflix and this is cheaper, but I don't know what CBS's library is like. I might just keep both depending on how it is.
For the record my intent would be to have normal stories throughout similar to DS9 and Voyager but still have the overarching plot of the war and make a few general points about power corrupting and people closing off and living in their own little perfect world while ignoring atrocities all around them.
Is JJ trek an option here? One of the new co-writers is on board but it is a CBS project (as others have pointed out).
The setting questions though I think are a little irrelevant. They could set the new show as a offshoot of the new NCC-1701 but it would face the same challenges regarding style, presentation, and tone that a post-Nemesis show would. It would just have to contend with a different setting and available set of known characters. What matters to the question "is it a good show (that justifies using the Star Trek universe)" would still be very dependent on how it's approached.
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
Actually, former writer. He left and is not even involved with the new movie at all.
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
Star Trek: Uncharted
Star Trek: Federation
I mean, uh.
Gene Roddenberry ostensibly created Star Trek to showcase his plethora of political ideas and ideals. Like, that's not even something that can really be argued so much as it's already been admitted quite some time ago.
Like, the UFP itself is some kinda odd post-apocalyptic trade-based socialized democracy of some kind, and always has been? Roddenberry himself was super-to-the-Left on the political spectrum, which is why so many progressive ideas where integrated into the show's canon.
Like, the thing is, humans in Star Trek are nothing like us modern humans. They've moved past issues like racism, bigotry, xenophobia, harsh political ideologies, all that jazz. The things that drive them are largely personally motivated, as their technology level, and the easiness of its availability, have essentially removed any of the problems we currently face in our times. Plus, the war-torn past of Earth itself, along with several other planets in the UFP, make them very open to being accepting of others because of their differences, and not in spite of them.
Enterprise messed with this on some level, though, what with the very humano-centric and xenophobic Terra Nova organization episodes, but those guys were ultimately defeated, and it looks like that isolationist and alien-hating attitude died out when they did, as it never again surfaced in Star Trek history.
Like I said, Trek has already done that kind of thing to death, without compromising the social structure of the UFP. What you're describing pretty much can't happen in Trek anymore; it simply stretches the believability of it considering all the history beforehand.
The allegories can and have been made in the past, though, using other alien cultures as the prime examples, but it's only cropped up in a very small few, isolated incidents in UFP history (like in DS9 with that dude who wanted to hijack the UFP, military coup-style).
Or hell, just look at the Maquis. Former UFP citizens who fought against territory concessions made to the Cardassians, but also a lot of them were shown to really hate Cardassians for a variety of reasons.
Or the Kohn-Ma, who wanted to kick everyone who wasn't Bajoran off of Bajor, and were willing to blow up innocent people to do it.
I'm sure such issues will come up again in the new series, much like they have before. But it won't be in the form of the UFP turning on itself over reasons like "everyone hating everyone else all of a sudden because xenophobia".
TOS did mention a WWIII, but it was clearly not a nuclear exchange. Some people have headcanoned that must refer instead to the Eugenics Wars, which gave us Khan Noonien Singh.
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!