-Beats up the Regent's super-negh'var in the mirrorverse, and before you go 'but mirrorverse', Smiley downloaded the specs for that Defiant from the prime universe. He didn't just randomly come up with the design.
Only because it was able to get so close that the Negh'var couldn't hit it and even then it only had a couple of hits left in it.
As for the Valiant incident, that was just complete and total stupidity, what's even more stupid is that had the Defiant been in that position, Sisko would have made it look easy.
The Valiant was poorly planned. What happened if they miss? Well they missed and had no backup plans. That's why they died.
The Defiant is a tough warship, and she's meant to engage a target and evade it while shooting it up. This means she needs a good helm, a good weapons officer and a good commander. That's what she depends on.
Cruisers need good engineering, good power management and good tactical officers plus of course the commander.
in interception or patrols, I'd want the Defiant. If I'm going deep space, where getting back isn't easy, I'd want a cruiser because it can repair itself. Defiant? not so much.
It looks like future riker was not only a military but also a weapon freak just lok at what he did to galaxy ship.
Using his influances as admiral he mounted heavy cannon pods more torpedo tubes and more phaser banks in top of that he redesigned hull to mount giant spinal lance cannon that in exchange ability to saucer separation was lost.
Also crew number was reduced living space was also reduced to make room for heavier armor i think all crew was military i bet there is addictional warp core to power lance.
Also dreadnought have more impulse engines so maybe thats why he is more manuverable in movie.
One question why old ship cant be packed with extreme advanced tech? its a space as long hull integrity holds ship will do its job.
Galaxy in last tng episode is an old ship but packed witch best technology and redesigned by enginers why coz its admiral flag ship thats why.
The best rationale is a direct EPS tap into the warp core in the secondary hull.
Think about the deflector blast from BoBW.
The Lance just channels a similar amount of energy through to hull to the external of the saucer assembly. This way you don't burn out your deflector and cripple your own ship in the process.
ehhh. 5 pages about a ship that have appeared ONLY in ONE episode....
Hast thou not gone against sincerity
Hast thou not felt ashamed of thy words and deeds
Hast thou not lacked vigor
Hast thou exerted all possible efforts
Hast thou not become slothful
The Valiant was poorly planned. What happened if they miss? Well they missed and had no backup plans. That's why they died.
The Defiant is a tough warship, and she's meant to engage a target and evade it while shooting it up. This means she needs a good helm, a good weapons officer and a good commander. That's what she depends on.
Cruisers need good engineering, good power management and good tactical officers plus of course the commander.
in interception or patrols, I'd want the Defiant. If I'm going deep space, where getting back isn't easy, I'd want a cruiser because it can repair itself. Defiant? not so much.
'makes you wonder...what if Voyager had been the Defiant and the ship stranded?
(...)
Uh no, if anything the Defiant is hyper-optimised for combat. The last thing it should do is run out of power or torpedoes in a fight.
Which still doesn't mean it is the ultimate dominator in any form of combat. It's still a frigate and short to medium range interceptor, not the non-plus-ultra warmachine the fans always want her to be.
I don't really understand this point. Yes it's great at what it does but why are we looking for reasons to dismiss it or detract from it? Other starfleet vessels are great at multiple missions and don't need lengthy refits to prepare for those missions. We rarely saw the Enterprise (any version) go in to Starbase to refit for a mission. The extra internal volume carries supplies, fabricating facilities, multiple and different laboratories to study and survey new star systems. Plenty of crew consignments for multiple disciplines and scientific specialisations. Adequate defences to protect ship and crew. Onboard recreation facilities so that crews can spend long times away from home ports.
In contrast the Defiant has none of that, what it does have is a powerful engine for its size, powerful guns for its size and the ability to take a beating. And that's all it can do. It might have sensors for studying a spatial anomaly but those sensors are there for combat first, anything else secondary. A lot of the things Farshore complained about are wrong, because the show went out of its way to tell us that information in the very first episode it premiered.
Something that NEVER made sense to me is why the Defiant was dealing with creating artificial wormholes in "Rejoined"...just because it was station next to a wormhole? It made No. Sense. that an escort, aka a warship with absolutely no science capabilities would be doing that.
Thats your interpretation of events.
Keldon - caught by surprise.
Vor'Cha - fine, but the Defiant didn't fight back.
Defiant Vs Lakota is a terrible example of anything as neither party had any interest in actually defeating the other.
The Super Negh'var - oh please - the mirror universe? Where they had to steal a cloak from a Prime Universe BoP because they didn't have cloaking technology - except that they did in an earlier DS9 mirror episode. Where 'Regent' Worf was a braindead dope who loses his temper with consoles instead of doing anything useful?
And it's arguable that the Defiant could have actually destroyed the typically exagerated MU TRIBBLE excuse for a ship. And lets be honest - its absolutely ludicrous that the MU Terrans could build a Defiant class ship anyway.
All of that is quite beside the point because you said that the Defiant NEVER punched above it's weight, and here are FOUR EXAMPLES OF JUST THAT.
You are finding excuses for each one when you're absolutely wrong. It's not a question of interpretation, it's black and white you said something demonstrably false, here's the proof that you're wrong, you acting like that proof doesn't matter or wasn't your main point. That's moving the goalposts. May I remind you that this is what you said:
And it pretty much never took on anything above its own weight class.
And the points I raised was in reply to. Saying 'oh but the mirrorverse sucks' isn't a reply to anything I said.
I can't be bothered with yet another discussion about the Odyssey, beyond saying that it had to stand its ground for more than 'just a few minutes'
It was just a few minutes - watch the damn episode.
Keogh (at the start of the fight 39:30 into the episode): 'We'll give O'Brien five more minutes and then we're getting out of here.'
Keogh (at the point where Sisko was recovered and he orders the retreat, 41:30): 'We've got what we came for, better pull back before we-' (at that point the communications array was hit cutting Keogh's transmission short).
39:30-41:30 - literally a difference of a couple of minutes plus or minus at most 5 seconds either way. Even if you think it doesn't neatly come out to exactly 120 seconds thanks to scene changes and such the like, Keogh's dialogue says five minutes was the absolute maximum that fight would last anyway. Given the dialogue and the actual, you know, episode in question's run length, I think my interpretation is valid.
- and those three tiny Jem'Hadar Attack ships (NOT fighters) had two advantages:
A: Starfleet had absolutely ZERO familiarity with their phased-polaron weapons
B: Said weapons rendered Starfleet shields useless
C: Their size meant that the Odyssey couldn't dogfight them, much less avoid the suicide run.
And in the case of 'C', again, the Defiant - which COULD dogfight them - was defeated and boarded by the Jem'Hadar in the very next episode. Yeah, okay, it defeated one JHAS with it's decloak sneak attack. Big wow.
It is - literally - one JHAS more than the Odyssey was ever seen destroying, but you acted like the latter did the same with absolutely no evidence.
Also, kinda ironic that you would use an example of a fight in which the length of time that passed wasn't entirely clear. It is often cited that, in First Contact, the Defiant had been fighting the Borg cube for quite a while, whereas we actually have no idea how much time passed.
We know how fast warp drive works and we know the fight didn't start in earth orbit. Not hard to extrapolate that the fight in those circumstances would be a long one. Hell, Enterprise was at the Romulan Neutral Zone and warped to Earth in however long that would take under maximum warp - that would still take more than the second it took to change scenes. It could have been minutes, hours, or days even - we don't know exactly where the Enterprise was. The Romulan Neutral Zone is a long stretch of space.
And how exactly did the Valiant 'punch above its weight' against that Dominion Battle ship
By... going ahead with the operation? It was ultimately unsuccessful but that doesn't mean it wasn't punching above its weight.
Hell, here's a thought - maybe the fact it was unsuccessful is because it was punching above its weight?
But I won't continue this discussion beyond this post, as see little point in discussion such matters with someone who would insult my cognitive abilities to support their own viewpoint.
Do you even know what cognitive dissonance means? In this context it means your argument is in direct contradiction with itself. You've been arguing that the Odyssey's performance in 'The Jem'Hadar' was a sign of toughness while simultaneously arguing that the Valiant's performance in 'Valiant' was a sign that the class was weak - despite the fact that in both scenarios, each ship was outclassed, and in both scenarios it was because the ship was outclassed that it was destroyed. If you believe your argument applies to the Odyssey then it ought to apply to the Valiant. If you don't believe your argument applies to the Valiant then it oughtn't apply to the Odyssey. But here you are still giving excuses for why the Odyssey losing its fight is ok, but the Valiant losing its fight isn't.
I wasn't insulting you. I was telling you your argument is contradicting itself. Get a grip.
Odyssey was outclassed no doubt about that , oddy can fight other capital ship lots of shield lots of hull to soak and large warp core to back it up how ever Jem'Hadar relied on firepower ad technologicaly superiority they are conquerers they gather technology and assimilate it just like borgs i wonder why borg after assimilated so many species and technology are weak like that in present game or for the matter in voyager series.
I was always uneasy seeing borg cube coz ther reminded me of overwhelming power but in voy that magic gone somwhere.
Back to defiant it is way better against jem ships in any way and i think galX could cloak/surprise them pretty badly too.
Odyssey was outclassed no doubt about that , oddy can fight other capital ship lots of shield lots of hull to soak and large warp core to back it up how ever Jem'Hadar relied on firepower ad technologicaly superiority they are conquerers they gather technology and assimilate it just like borgs i wonder why borg after assimilated so many species and technology are weak like that in present game or for the matter in voyager series.
I was always uneasy seeing borg cube coz ther reminded me of overwhelming power but in voy that magic gone somwhere.
Back to defiant it is way better against jem ships in any way and i think galX could cloak/surprise them pretty badly too.
i don't think so.
well first,let put asside the obvious intention to shock the audience by getting the most powerfull ship starfleet created been kick in the TRIBBLE to show you how serious the dominion is.
even without that, we know that the founders had already infiltrated Starfleet for at least 1 years and knew everything there was to know about their conventional technologie.
wich explain why the phaser array were inoperative against them in the beguining and why the dominion one go throught the starfleet shield so easily.
considering that, i found that this fight reflect indeed how resilient the galaxy class is, especially when the ships fighting it clearly wanted to destroy it, and failing to do so ( although being 3 to try ) was forced to do it on a kamikaze attack.
any starfleet ship at that time, in the same situation would have finished like this.
in fact that exactly what happened before with the combined fleet of cardassian and romulan for people who forget it.
and what happened after with the defiant, altho they was no intention to destroy it, but board it, this time, how convenient.
and later when starfleet adapted their technologie, these same jem ship were not doing their smart TRIBBLE anymore when they face a galaxy class.
as a matter of fact the number of galaxy class starship destroy during the dominion war ( and i said during ) is insignificant i believe, no one was seeing destroy onscreen anyway.
so if we speak about the galaxy x now, it certainly don't need a decloack/surprised attack to squashed some little bug, the conventional galaxy class was already capable to do that.
Something I've ALWAYS wondered...why didn't shields exist in DS9 battles? When the Klingons attacked, no shields...when the Dominion attacked the station, only a shield over Ops. When the Attack Ships were shot would sometimes only one torpedo...explode. In every battle, shields just didn't seem to exist in DS9...but Voyager always had them.
Something I've ALWAYS wondered...why didn't shields exist in DS9 battles? When the Klingons attacked, no shields...when the Dominion attacked the station, only a shield over Ops. When the Attack Ships were shot would sometimes only one torpedo...explode. In every battle, shields just didn't seem to exist in DS9...but Voyager always had them.
Visual drama.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Something I've ALWAYS wondered...why didn't shields exist in DS9 battles? When the Klingons attacked, no shields...when the Dominion attacked the station, only a shield over Ops. When the Attack Ships were shot would sometimes only one torpedo...explode. In every battle, shields just didn't seem to exist in DS9...but Voyager always had them.
Because the visual effects were already more complicated than ever before, what with fleet battles with dozens of ships onscreen at any one time. To add shield effects on top of that would have broken the effects budget.
It was a trade off that ultimately couldn't be avoided.
Something I've ALWAYS wondered...why didn't shields exist in DS9 battles? When the Klingons attacked, no shields...when the Dominion attacked the station, only a shield over Ops. When the Attack Ships were shot would sometimes only one torpedo...explode. In every battle, shields just didn't seem to exist in DS9...but Voyager always had them.
As others said, budget and drama reasons. In the end DS9 wanted to imitate Babylon 5 and Star Wars battles with lots of boom and debris flying around, fast zippy fighter-esque ships circling capital ships. It broke Star Trek tradition of "submarine" combat in TOS (where it was mostly just sitting and firing on sensor blips) or the age-of-sail inspired TNG combar where ships sit from a hundred thousand kilometers to visual distane almost motionless and exchange shots until shields drop.
DS9 introduced the visually most exciting kind of Trek combat, but also the most nonsensical.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
Something I've ALWAYS wondered...why didn't shields exist in DS9 battles? When the Klingons attacked, no shields...when the Dominion attacked the station, only a shield over Ops. When the Attack Ships were shot would sometimes only one torpedo...explode. In every battle, shields just didn't seem to exist in DS9...but Voyager always had them.
JJ had infiltrated Trek way before 2009 hence why no shields.
My opinion, the edge goes to the Gal-X with the lance and cloak, but once engaged in visible combat only, it's anybody's guess.
Both vessels have excellent phaser coverage, both have forward and aft torpedo capability, and if both have equal type weapon systems [aka phaser mk & torpedo type], than they only other edge is the Sovereign having more torpedo launchers in general.
Other than technilogical advances, both ships are advanced in this department, with a possible edge for the Gal-X due to the increased warp capability exceeding warp 10, but little else is known beyond this.
So, if we put both on an equal playing field tech wise, than again it comes down to anybody's guess, outside of the slight edge of the Gal-X lance assault + cloak advantage, not to say the Sovereign couldn't detect the Gal-X while cloaked.
Comments
Only because it was able to get so close that the Negh'var couldn't hit it and even then it only had a couple of hits left in it.
As for the Valiant incident, that was just complete and total stupidity, what's even more stupid is that had the Defiant been in that position, Sisko would have made it look easy.
The Defiant is a tough warship, and she's meant to engage a target and evade it while shooting it up. This means she needs a good helm, a good weapons officer and a good commander. That's what she depends on.
Cruisers need good engineering, good power management and good tactical officers plus of course the commander.
in interception or patrols, I'd want the Defiant. If I'm going deep space, where getting back isn't easy, I'd want a cruiser because it can repair itself. Defiant? not so much.
Using his influances as admiral he mounted heavy cannon pods more torpedo tubes and more phaser banks in top of that he redesigned hull to mount giant spinal lance cannon that in exchange ability to saucer separation was lost.
Also crew number was reduced living space was also reduced to make room for heavier armor i think all crew was military i bet there is addictional warp core to power lance.
Also dreadnought have more impulse engines so maybe thats why he is more manuverable in movie.
One question why old ship cant be packed with extreme advanced tech? its a space as long hull integrity holds ship will do its job.
Galaxy in last tng episode is an old ship but packed witch best technology and redesigned by enginers why coz its admiral flag ship thats why.
My character Tsin'xing
Hast thou not felt ashamed of thy words and deeds
Hast thou not lacked vigor
Hast thou exerted all possible efforts
Hast thou not become slothful
and this is the quote of the thread!
'makes you wonder...what if Voyager had been the Defiant and the ship stranded?
Something that NEVER made sense to me is why the Defiant was dealing with creating artificial wormholes in "Rejoined"...just because it was station next to a wormhole? It made No. Sense. that an escort, aka a warship with absolutely no science capabilities would be doing that.
and Voyager had to do some... redecorating before they could establish an industrial replicator. I think they had to build their own? Not sure...
You are finding excuses for each one when you're absolutely wrong. It's not a question of interpretation, it's black and white you said something demonstrably false, here's the proof that you're wrong, you acting like that proof doesn't matter or wasn't your main point. That's moving the goalposts. May I remind you that this is what you said:
And the points I raised was in reply to. Saying 'oh but the mirrorverse sucks' isn't a reply to anything I said.
It was just a few minutes - watch the damn episode.
Keogh (at the start of the fight 39:30 into the episode): 'We'll give O'Brien five more minutes and then we're getting out of here.'
Keogh (at the point where Sisko was recovered and he orders the retreat, 41:30): 'We've got what we came for, better pull back before we-' (at that point the communications array was hit cutting Keogh's transmission short).
39:30-41:30 - literally a difference of a couple of minutes plus or minus at most 5 seconds either way. Even if you think it doesn't neatly come out to exactly 120 seconds thanks to scene changes and such the like, Keogh's dialogue says five minutes was the absolute maximum that fight would last anyway. Given the dialogue and the actual, you know, episode in question's run length, I think my interpretation is valid.
It is - literally - one JHAS more than the Odyssey was ever seen destroying, but you acted like the latter did the same with absolutely no evidence.
We know how fast warp drive works and we know the fight didn't start in earth orbit. Not hard to extrapolate that the fight in those circumstances would be a long one. Hell, Enterprise was at the Romulan Neutral Zone and warped to Earth in however long that would take under maximum warp - that would still take more than the second it took to change scenes. It could have been minutes, hours, or days even - we don't know exactly where the Enterprise was. The Romulan Neutral Zone is a long stretch of space.
By... going ahead with the operation? It was ultimately unsuccessful but that doesn't mean it wasn't punching above its weight.
Hell, here's a thought - maybe the fact it was unsuccessful is because it was punching above its weight?
Do you even know what cognitive dissonance means? In this context it means your argument is in direct contradiction with itself. You've been arguing that the Odyssey's performance in 'The Jem'Hadar' was a sign of toughness while simultaneously arguing that the Valiant's performance in 'Valiant' was a sign that the class was weak - despite the fact that in both scenarios, each ship was outclassed, and in both scenarios it was because the ship was outclassed that it was destroyed. If you believe your argument applies to the Odyssey then it ought to apply to the Valiant. If you don't believe your argument applies to the Valiant then it oughtn't apply to the Odyssey. But here you are still giving excuses for why the Odyssey losing its fight is ok, but the Valiant losing its fight isn't.
I wasn't insulting you. I was telling you your argument is contradicting itself. Get a grip.
I was always uneasy seeing borg cube coz ther reminded me of overwhelming power but in voy that magic gone somwhere.
Back to defiant it is way better against jem ships in any way and i think galX could cloak/surprise them pretty badly too.
i don't think so.
well first,let put asside the obvious intention to shock the audience by getting the most powerfull ship starfleet created been kick in the TRIBBLE to show you how serious the dominion is.
even without that, we know that the founders had already infiltrated Starfleet for at least 1 years and knew everything there was to know about their conventional technologie.
wich explain why the phaser array were inoperative against them in the beguining and why the dominion one go throught the starfleet shield so easily.
considering that, i found that this fight reflect indeed how resilient the galaxy class is, especially when the ships fighting it clearly wanted to destroy it, and failing to do so ( although being 3 to try ) was forced to do it on a kamikaze attack.
any starfleet ship at that time, in the same situation would have finished like this.
in fact that exactly what happened before with the combined fleet of cardassian and romulan for people who forget it.
and what happened after with the defiant, altho they was no intention to destroy it, but board it, this time, how convenient.
and later when starfleet adapted their technologie, these same jem ship were not doing their smart TRIBBLE anymore when they face a galaxy class.
as a matter of fact the number of galaxy class starship destroy during the dominion war ( and i said during ) is insignificant i believe, no one was seeing destroy onscreen anyway.
so if we speak about the galaxy x now, it certainly don't need a decloack/surprised attack to squashed some little bug, the conventional galaxy class was already capable to do that.
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=528931&page=271
Visual drama.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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It was a trade off that ultimately couldn't be avoided.
As others said, budget and drama reasons. In the end DS9 wanted to imitate Babylon 5 and Star Wars battles with lots of boom and debris flying around, fast zippy fighter-esque ships circling capital ships. It broke Star Trek tradition of "submarine" combat in TOS (where it was mostly just sitting and firing on sensor blips) or the age-of-sail inspired TNG combar where ships sit from a hundred thousand kilometers to visual distane almost motionless and exchange shots until shields drop.
DS9 introduced the visually most exciting kind of Trek combat, but also the most nonsensical.
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JJ had infiltrated Trek way before 2009 hence why no shields.
Both vessels have excellent phaser coverage, both have forward and aft torpedo capability, and if both have equal type weapon systems [aka phaser mk & torpedo type], than they only other edge is the Sovereign having more torpedo launchers in general.
Other than technilogical advances, both ships are advanced in this department, with a possible edge for the Gal-X due to the increased warp capability exceeding warp 10, but little else is known beyond this.
So, if we put both on an equal playing field tech wise, than again it comes down to anybody's guess, outside of the slight edge of the Gal-X lance assault + cloak advantage, not to say the Sovereign couldn't detect the Gal-X while cloaked.
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!