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Cannons......Why?

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    adamkafeiadamkafei Member Posts: 6,539 Arc User
    nikephorus wrote: »
    Nice sentiment except that at the height of "Escorts Online" escorts were no longer "glass cannons". Many escorts had very favorable boff layouts with access to a lot of engineering and/or sci powers without a sacrifice to offensive tac skills which made them very tanky. At the same time they also were much quicker then cruisers and could also speed tank. They were in fact, when built correctly, better tanks then cruisers. Escorts won at everything and cruisers were garbage scows. As for science that's been a constant nerf fest. The only time cryptic buffs sci abilities is when they want their npc's to be scary again.

    While this is true, it is also true that anyone who had the basics of Cruisers down even before Aux2Batt which facilitated the current 'dps or go home' mentality was able to hold their own with escorts around, you got to kill things with your cruisers, heck, I took my T3 Excelsior into a KASE run toward the end of the Escorts online era to prove that fleet gear wasn't everything and took down one side of the map faster than the combined efforts of four escorts. Now I admit they were pug escorts but there were four of them.

    Nowadays if you're the one escort on a team, you're lucky if you get to kill anything before the FAW boats melt everything in sight, back when it was escorts online I used to think escorts were the most boring setup to play, then I discovered FAW was truly the most mundane thing ever.

    As for sci, since I learned how sci works it's been perhaps the most fun I've had, it is however a shame that Cryptic still haven't worked out the problem with sci abilities isn't the abilities but tactical captain buffs. I dare say if my sci captain was able to reach the current top end numbers for grav well it would be more powerful than my FPER or my Excel.
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    paxdawnpaxdawn Member Posts: 767 Arc User
    Torpedos, cannons and beams homogenous builds are all capable of 75k+ in ISA to melt everything faster than any 4 random PuG.

    It is not a question of if you are an escort or cruiser, beam, cannon or torp. It is a question if the player is in the correct build with the correct piloting.

    The variance of weapons platforms in terms of Absolute DPS is in the Top DPS not in the casual player nor average player level. If a casual player or average player cannot put cannons the same dps as the beams, it means that player made a build mistake or piloting mistakes.
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    nikephorusnikephorus Member Posts: 2,744 Arc User
    adamkafei wrote: »
    While this is true, it is also true that anyone who had the basics of Cruisers down even before Aux2Batt which facilitated the current 'dps or go home' mentality was able to hold their own with escorts around, you got to kill things with your cruisers, heck, I took my T3 Excelsior into a KASE run toward the end of the Escorts online era to prove that fleet gear wasn't everything and took down one side of the map faster than the combined efforts of four escorts. Now I admit they were pug escorts but there were four of them.

    Agreed. I managed to keep up with escorts in my cruiser, but I also had to invest significantly more into my build. Rather depressing to have better gear, better doffs, etc and still be inferior because...reasons.
    Nowadays if you're the one escort on a team, you're lucky if you get to kill anything before the FAW boats melt everything in sight, back when it was escorts online I used to think escorts were the most boring setup to play, then I discovered FAW was truly the most mundane thing ever.

    Well personally I've play both and I enjoy both - to each their own and all that.

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    vekares227vekares227 Member Posts: 84 Arc User
    You can look me up on the Gateway, my loadout and everything is on there.

    As for calling me a scrub or whatever, I feel thats the problem with this game. You cant attack people because they dont have the free time you have. Im asking advice on how to improve myself, not asking for any handouts.

    I actually help people when I can because I dont have time to grind, so I invest my real money, which us a slight advantage. For instance, I bought someone a ship module because they were asking for help getting one and I had the 12 mil, I have bought countless ground weapons that I have given out at epic quality.

    Im not trying to incite anything, just pointing out I practice what I preach. MMOs are communities and acting like they are exclusive communities is BS. I have played this game on and off since beta. I remember grinding STFs because each set piece was a random drop, which took months to earn. When getting the costume pieces required 3 versions if each set to unlock it all. I have supported this game extensively and while im not a bad player, im not great and that is what im trying to improve. So while most of you have been helpful and I appreciate it, but I feel the negativity, just for the sake of attacking someone needs to go away.
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    nikephorusnikephorus Member Posts: 2,744 Arc User
    vekares227 wrote: »
    You can look me up on the Gateway, my loadout and everything is on there.

    As for calling me a scrub or whatever, I feel thats the problem with this game. You cant attack people because they dont have the free time you have. Im asking advice on how to improve myself, not asking for any handouts.

    I actually help people when I can because I dont have time to grind, so I invest my real money, which us a slight advantage. For instance, I bought someone a ship module because they were asking for help getting one and I had the 12 mil, I have bought countless ground weapons that I have given out at epic quality.

    Im not trying to incite anything, just pointing out I practice what I preach. MMOs are communities and acting like they are exclusive communities is BS. I have played this game on and off since beta. I remember grinding STFs because each set piece was a random drop, which took months to earn. When getting the costume pieces required 3 versions if each set to unlock it all. I have supported this game extensively and while im not a bad player, im not great and that is what im trying to improve. So while most of you have been helpful and I appreciate it, but I feel the negativity, just for the sake of attacking someone needs to go away.

    If your referring to my comment I was actually kidding, but I probably should have made it a little more obvious. So I apologize if you felt like It was a personal attack.
    Tza0PEl.png
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    peterconnorfirstpeterconnorfirst Member Posts: 6,225 Arc User
    vekares227 wrote: »
    You can look me up on the Gateway, my loadout and everything is on there.

    As for calling me a scrub or whatever, I feel thats the problem with this game. You cant attack people because they dont have the free time you have. Im asking advice on how to improve myself, not asking for any handouts.

    I actually help people when I can because I dont have time to grind, so I invest my real money, which us a slight advantage. For instance, I bought someone a ship module because they were asking for help getting one and I had the 12 mil, I have bought countless ground weapons that I have given out at epic quality.

    Im not trying to incite anything, just pointing out I practice what I preach. MMOs are communities and acting like they are exclusive communities is BS. I have played this game on and off since beta. I remember grinding STFs because each set piece was a random drop, which took months to earn. When getting the costume pieces required 3 versions if each set to unlock it all. I have supported this game extensively and while im not a bad player, im not great and that is what im trying to improve. So while most of you have been helpful and I appreciate it, but I feel the negativity, just for the sake of attacking someone needs to go away.

    Gateway is terribly broken when it comes to stuff like Boff-power display and especially the various traits.

    Pls make your build at sto academy, I gladly help as far as I can. Like mentioned my DPS experience with pure cannons leads up to 50k in ISA so far and I hope to improve myself there.

    Would be cool if we could make this a constructive cannon build thread. I found them much harder to master than beams but twice as fun to play and they can be very effective. :)
    animated.gif
    Looking for a fun PvE fleet? Join us at Omega Combat Division today.
    felisean wrote: »
    teamwork to reach a goal is awesome and highly appreciated
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    dd1mdd1m Member Posts: 171 Arc User
    vekares227 wrote: »
    the embassy plasma consoles,

    Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought that these didn't proc with Cannons?

    8ebd135a27dd1eb31f8ce7dff0bfba3a1f1467ac_full.jpg
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    vekares227vekares227 Member Posts: 84 Arc User
    lol that would be my luck.
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    peterconnorfirstpeterconnorfirst Member Posts: 6,225 Arc User
    edited October 2015
    dd1m wrote: »
    vekares227 wrote: »
    the embassy plasma consoles,

    Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought that these didn't proc with Cannons?

    I have only one slotted on my cannon build. I get procs alright but the according to combat log it's only a laughable part of my overall damage output on an average run (as in 2% of a 40k). Could also be the turrets or the kinetic cutter setting it off. I think I replace the embassy console with a research lab console and/or crafting console. Just can’t decide if to pick EPS or FLOW cuz I have no idea how big of an influence EPS is on cannons.
    animated.gif
    Looking for a fun PvE fleet? Join us at Omega Combat Division today.
    felisean wrote: »
    teamwork to reach a goal is awesome and highly appreciated
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    dd1mdd1m Member Posts: 171 Arc User
    My bad it wasn't the proc it was that they didn't crit with cannons, so they removed the ability for them to crit at all!
    8ebd135a27dd1eb31f8ce7dff0bfba3a1f1467ac_full.jpg
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    nikephorusnikephorus Member Posts: 2,744 Arc User
    dd1m wrote: »
    vekares227 wrote: »
    the embassy plasma consoles,

    Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought that these didn't proc with Cannons?

    They proc...they just didn't crit like they did with beams. Rather then correct the problem cryptic decided to just remove their ability to crit, but they still work other then that.
    Tza0PEl.png
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    questeriusquesterius Member Posts: 8,358 Arc User
    vekares227 wrote: »
    You can look me up on the Gateway, my loadout and everything is on there.

    As for calling me a scrub or whatever, I feel thats the problem with this game. You cant attack people because they dont have the free time you have. Im asking advice on how to improve myself, not asking for any handouts.

    I actually help people when I can because I dont have time to grind, so I invest my real money, which us a slight advantage. For instance, I bought someone a ship module because they were asking for help getting one and I had the 12 mil, I have bought countless ground weapons that I have given out at epic quality.

    Im not trying to incite anything, just pointing out I practice what I preach. MMOs are communities and acting like they are exclusive communities is BS. I have played this game on and off since beta. I remember grinding STFs because each set piece was a random drop, which took months to earn. When getting the costume pieces required 3 versions if each set to unlock it all. I have supported this game extensively and while im not a bad player, im not great and that is what im trying to improve. So while most of you have been helpful and I appreciate it, but I feel the negativity, just for the sake of attacking someone needs to go away.

    The reason why i suggested showing your build on skillplanner is that it allows more direct advice on your build and boff powers.

    Not to mention that gateway is a bit awkward to use.​​
    This program, though reasonably normal at times, seems to have a strong affinity to classes belonging to the Cat 2.0 program. Questerius 2.7 will break down on occasion, resulting in garbage and nonsense messages whenever it occurs. Usually a hard reboot or pulling the plug solves the problem when that happens.
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    dd1mdd1m Member Posts: 171 Arc User
    edited October 2015
    nikephorus wrote: »
    dd1m wrote: »
    vekares227 wrote: »
    the embassy plasma consoles,

    Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought that these didn't proc with Cannons?


    They proc...they just didn't crit like they did with beams. Rather then correct the problem cryptic decided to just remove their ability to crit, but they still work other then that.

    Yeah brain fade there :smile:
    questerius wrote: »
    vekares227 wrote: »
    You can look me up on the Gateway, my loadout and everything is on there.

    As for calling me a scrub or whatever, I feel thats the problem with this game. You cant attack people because they dont have the free time you have. Im asking advice on how to improve myself, not asking for any handouts.

    I actually help people when I can because I dont have time to grind, so I invest my real money, which us a slight advantage. For instance, I bought someone a ship module because they were asking for help getting one and I had the 12 mil, I have bought countless ground weapons that I have given out at epic quality.

    Im not trying to incite anything, just pointing out I practice what I preach. MMOs are communities and acting like they are exclusive communities is BS. I have played this game on and off since beta. I remember grinding STFs because each set piece was a random drop, which took months to earn. When getting the costume pieces required 3 versions if each set to unlock it all. I have supported this game extensively and while im not a bad player, im not great and that is what im trying to improve. So while most of you have been helpful and I appreciate it, but I feel the negativity, just for the sake of attacking someone needs to go away.

    The reason why i suggested showing your build on skillplanner is that it allows more direct advice on your build and boff powers.

    .​​

    Not to mention the Gateway has a habit of not showing the correct infomation, Ie wrong weapon marks, incorrect boff skills etc
    8ebd135a27dd1eb31f8ce7dff0bfba3a1f1467ac_full.jpg
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    tinkerstormtinkerstorm Member Posts: 853 Arc User
    reyan01 wrote: »
    nikephorus wrote: »
    reyan01 wrote: »
    dalnar83 wrote: »
    Escorts Online was bad, true. But replacing it with a two-finger FAW gameplay is definilty not the solution.

    Yeah - I'd take 'escorts online' over the FAW farce any day of the week.

    At least with 'escorts online' it was just that - Escorts. Sadly, the FAW farce works just as well on cruisers as it does escorts.

    So what your saying is you want escorts online back so that cruisers can go back to sucking?

    No. I was simply saying that I preferred things as they were back then - it made more sense in my opinion.

    Escorts = killed things fast with cannons but couldn't take much of a hit due to weak hull. Once upon a time referred to as 'glass cannons'.
    Cruisers = killed things a little more slowly but could take a lot of hull damage
    Science = debuff, crowd control and shield tanking

    But that's pretty much gone. We have Cruises that BFAW everything to death in seconds. We have escorts that can hull tank, and BFAW is so OP that escorts use it too. And science? Well, Partigen builds I guess - but leaning toward being almost redundant otherwise.
    What'd you put in your corn flakes this morning? Escorts have never been glass cannons. You should learn what that means. Escorts Online sucked as much as FAW Online. You seem to have some fantasy about STO having been an MMO once upon a time. It never was.

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    nikephorusnikephorus Member Posts: 2,744 Arc User
    reyan01 wrote: »
    nikephorus wrote: »
    reyan01 wrote: »
    dalnar83 wrote: »
    Escorts Online was bad, true. But replacing it with a two-finger FAW gameplay is definilty not the solution.

    Yeah - I'd take 'escorts online' over the FAW farce any day of the week.

    At least with 'escorts online' it was just that - Escorts. Sadly, the FAW farce works just as well on cruisers as it does escorts.

    So what your saying is you want escorts online back so that cruisers can go back to sucking?

    No. I was simply saying that I preferred things as they were back then - it made more sense in my opinion.

    Escorts = killed things fast with cannons but couldn't take much of a hit due to weak hull. Once upon a time referred to as 'glass cannons'.
    Cruisers = killed things a little more slowly but could take a lot of hull damage
    Science = debuff, crowd control and shield tanking

    But that's pretty much gone. We have Cruises that BFAW everything to death in seconds. We have escorts that can hull tank, and BFAW is so OP that escorts use it too. And science? Well, Partigen builds I guess - but leaning toward being almost redundant otherwise.
    What'd you put in your corn flakes this morning? Escorts have never been glass cannons. You should learn what that means. Escorts Online sucked as much as FAW Online. You seem to have some fantasy about STO having been an MMO once upon a time. It never was.

    If you go back far enough escorts were, at one point, squishy (boff layouts were much less flexible then they are now, at least where certain ships are concerned), but that didn't last very long. I do agree with you though that Escorts Online isn't any better then the FAW Online we have now. I think if they adjusted the damage falloff from cannons it might narrow the gap a little bit.
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    paxdawnpaxdawn Member Posts: 767 Arc User
    edited October 2015
    nikephorus wrote: »
    If you go back far enough escorts were, at one point, squishy (boff layouts were much less flexible then they are now, at least where certain ships are concerned), but that didn't last very long. I do agree with you though that Escorts Online isn't any better then the FAW Online we have now. I think if they adjusted the damage falloff from cannons it might narrow the gap a little bit.

    It might. But like i said in my previous post in this thread. More of piloting mistake which is also true for fall off.

    If make a theoretical scenario that damage fall off would change it still wont solve the problem for those who still remain not in point blank shot range. If a player remains at point blank shot range using cannons, there would be no difference at all in dps for that player even with damage fall off change in the mechanics.

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    nikephorusnikephorus Member Posts: 2,744 Arc User
    paxdawn wrote: »
    nikephorus wrote: »
    If you go back far enough escorts were, at one point, squishy (boff layouts were much less flexible then they are now, at least where certain ships are concerned), but that didn't last very long. I do agree with you though that Escorts Online isn't any better then the FAW Online we have now. I think if they adjusted the damage falloff from cannons it might narrow the gap a little bit.

    It might. But like i said in my previous post in this thread. More of piloting mistake which is also true for fall off.

    If make a theoretical scenario that damage fall off would change it still wont solve the problem for those who still remain not in point blank shot range. If a player remains at point blank shot range using cannons, there would be no difference at all in dps for that player even with damage fall off change in the mechanics.

    Yeah it's more a fix for poor piloting skills.
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    kylercakylerca Member Posts: 40 Arc User
    edited October 2015
    Hehe. Still using cannons on my escort, always will. I basically follow the same format as their default builds to an extent. I throw 1 beam fore and aft, 3 DHCs front Bio-phaser turret in the back with a single quantum torpedo with [sprd] on it. Still land top 3 in CCA every time (though that may not be saying much).

    If you like cannons; use them. It's more important to enjoy the game than it is to spacebar mash beams into everything. : )

    PS. Oh, and I never park and shoot. Pilot Subwarp Sheath trait for life.
    Say NO to team Omega.
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    dalnar83dalnar83 Member Posts: 2,420 Arc User
    I'm not sure reducing "pilot skill" requirment for cannons is the right way to go. What about the other way ? reduce the effectivneess of skills that require very little piloting skills?
    "Cryptic Studio’s Jack Emmert (2010): Microtransactions are the biggest bunch of nonsense. I like paying one fee and not worrying about it – like my cellphone. The world’s biggest MMO isn’t item based, even though the black market item GDP is bigger than Russia … microtransactions make me want to die.”
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    questeriusquesterius Member Posts: 8,358 Arc User
    kylerca wrote: »
    Hehe. Still using cannons on my escort, always will. I basically follow the same format as their default builds to an extent. I throw 1 beam fore and aft, 3 DHCs front Bio-phaser turret in the back with a single quantum torpedo with [sprd] on it. Still land top 3 in CCA every time (though that may not be saying much).

    If you like cannons; use them. It's more important to enjoy the game than it is to spacebar mash beams into everything. : )

    PS. Oh, and I never park and shoot. Pilot Subwarp Sheath trait for life.

    Depends on the ship. Galaxy-X and Breen vessels with cannons, but phantom and hazari with beams.
    Off course i also have some single cannon/turret builds on my various characters. Everything is viable when you know your limitations and hone your piloting skills.​​
    This program, though reasonably normal at times, seems to have a strong affinity to classes belonging to the Cat 2.0 program. Questerius 2.7 will break down on occasion, resulting in garbage and nonsense messages whenever it occurs. Usually a hard reboot or pulling the plug solves the problem when that happens.
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    paxdawnpaxdawn Member Posts: 767 Arc User
    kylerca wrote: »
    Hehe. Still using cannons on my escort, always will. I basically follow the same format as their default builds to an extent. I throw 1 beam fore and aft, 3 DHCs front Bio-phaser turret in the back with a single quantum torpedo with [sprd] on it. Still land top 3 in CCA every time (though that may not be saying much).

    If you like cannons; use them. It's more important to enjoy the game than it is to spacebar mash beams into everything. : )

    PS. Oh, and I never park and shoot. Pilot Subwarp Sheath trait for life.

    I can apply spacebar mash to any weapons platform and end with the same result. You can also park and shoot with cannons or torps.

    Park and shoot vs strafing runs is build variance rather than weapons platform variance.
    dalnar83 wrote: »
    I'm not sure reducing "pilot skill" requirment for cannons is the right way to go. What about the other way ? reduce the effectivneess of skills that require very little piloting skills?

    It still wont affect players still within point blank shot range. This means the ceiling for cannons and beams would remain the same.
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    vekares227vekares227 Member Posts: 84 Arc User
    So I made an academy loadout under Vekares. Its incomplete as im at work and cant pull everthing up on my phone due to pop up blockers.
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    supergirl1611supergirl1611 Member Posts: 809 Arc User
    I don't ever feel penalised using cannons, i just find i'm a bad pilot who can't/struggles to keep my 4/5 DHC within arc without either my squishy escort popping as i'm sat stationary showing 1 shield facing to keep my main guns on target, or moving trying to also keep a moving target within my 45 degrees.

    Cannons users aren't penalised for using them. They just require more skill, thought and timing to use them and alpha strikes compared to a ship that can equip 8 beams and have 180 degree coverage. (Not knocking beams)

    Its like stfs. Beam users are normal difficulty Cannon users are Elite difficulty due to the skill,piloting and co-ordination they need
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    taylor1701dtaylor1701d Member Posts: 3,099 Arc User
    Op. I just made a turret boat that hit 33k.
    And could probably go higher.
    Mind you turrets are 360' and a lot easier to use efficiently then cannon arcs.
    Ps: I'm a god awful pilot, I don't take flanking or distance into consideration, I also fly with no keybinds.
    If I can do it, you can too.
    [img][/img]OD5urLn.jpg
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    tinkerbelchtinkerbelch Member Posts: 138 Arc User
    edited October 2015
    Loosing damage at range for beams makes sense. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beam_divergence
    But Cannons. I read on memory alpha that phaser cannons were not supposed to loose damage at long distances.

    Maybe it is time for cryptic to scratch the damage loss for cannons over distance and instead factor "distance to target" in the accuracy-defense hit miss calculation.

    This would basically mean full damage to stationary targets at any range, just like torpedoes, But maneuverable targets need to be up close in order to have good chance to hit. That sounds more like a dog-fighter and should make escorts way more fun.
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    questeriusquesterius Member Posts: 8,358 Arc User
    vekares227 wrote: »
    So I made an academy loadout under Vekares. Its incomplete as im at work and cant pull everthing up on my phone due to pop up blockers.

    What ship are you piloting. Just knowing that makes the search a lot easier.​​
    This program, though reasonably normal at times, seems to have a strong affinity to classes belonging to the Cat 2.0 program. Questerius 2.7 will break down on occasion, resulting in garbage and nonsense messages whenever it occurs. Usually a hard reboot or pulling the plug solves the problem when that happens.
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    vekares227vekares227 Member Posts: 84 Arc User
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    vekares227vekares227 Member Posts: 84 Arc User
    A lot this is not exact, but close enough as I am at work. It lets you know what I use and how I use it.
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    questeriusquesterius Member Posts: 8,358 Arc User
    edited October 2015
    vekares227 wrote: »

    @vekares227

    First things which come to mind are:
    - Why use an omni beam. Omni beams aren't particularly powerful to begin with and are wasted when not combined with other beam arrays.
    - Why use a KCB and not the assimilated console. In this case the science plasma consoles are the least useful.
    - Consider adding this http://sto.gamepedia.com/Heavy_Bio-Molecular_Phaser_Turret#Heavy_Bio-Molecular_Phaser_Turret
    - You use cannon rapid fire which is effective against single targets, but in STF there is rarely a single target and due to the limited firing arc you need to spend time to acquire another target. Use CSV instead
    - You're flying a pilot ship so why not use those pilot abilities to your advantage. Attack pattern Lambda, pilot team or ignite coolant can all be used to your advantage.
    - You use a lot of copies of the same power (CRF), but why not throw in attack pattern beta or delta (get those mixed up all the time) to debuff your opponent.

    Other than that it should be a simple matter to get in close and flank the NPC in such a nimble ship.​​
    Post edited by questerius on
    This program, though reasonably normal at times, seems to have a strong affinity to classes belonging to the Cat 2.0 program. Questerius 2.7 will break down on occasion, resulting in garbage and nonsense messages whenever it occurs. Usually a hard reboot or pulling the plug solves the problem when that happens.
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    sohtohsohtoh Member Posts: 620 Arc User
    edited October 2015
    questerius wrote: »
    vekares227 wrote: »

    First things which come to mind are:
    - Why use an omni beam. Omni beams aren't particularly powerful to begin with and are wasted when not combined with other beam arrays.
    - Why use a KCB and not the assimilated console. In this case the science plasma consoles are the least useful.
    - Consider adding this http://sto.gamepedia.com/Heavy_Bio-Molecular_Phaser_Turret#Heavy_Bio-Molecular_Phaser_Turret
    - You use cannon rapid fire which is effective against single targets, but in STF there is rarely a single target and due to the limited firing arc you need to spend time to acquire another target. Use CSF instead
    - You're flying a pilot ship so why not use those pilot abilities to your advantage. Attack pattern Lambda, pilot team or ignite coolant can all be used to your advantage.
    - You use a lot of copies of the same power (CRF), but why not throw in attack pattern beta or delta (get those mixed up all the time) to debuff your opponent.

    Other than that it should be a simple matter to get in close and flank the NPC in such a nimble ship.​​

    I would think that, based on him having BFAW1, he is using the Omni-Beam for fighter spam.

    I agree about the four copies of CRF, bring them down to two and throw in Beta or Delta.

    If he is using Aux to Damp for the turn rate, he could slot the trait Deft Cannoneer (for the turn rate) and exchange Aux to Damp for RSP or a hull heal. If it is for the speed, slot Pilot Team for the speed as well.
    "I'm not big on telepaths myself. I'm not big on guns either. But if everyone else has them, I want to make sure I can get my hands on the biggest one I can."
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