Revising/reducing level requirements of Delta and Iconian arcs [and others prehaps.

With the redux of the Cardie arc, the growing number of level 60 requriment missions and the possible additon of a new arc with season 11, is there any way the level requirements for latter arcs be lowered [including? Helping folk reach 60 more 'funly' rather than grinding and letting them access any new arcs that are to come. I enjoy playing STO and running though the mission arcs but the brick wall of 50 to 60 drains much enthuisaum, and the prosect of not being able to enjoy any new content due to it is not a fun prosect. I understand reaching 60 was not ment to be easy, but in the curent from its.. not enjoyable, and a game that isn't fun isn't helping it self. reducing the level requiremtn for latter arcs will help those stuggling to make 60 have a fun and enjoyable ride, as well as getting to play new missions as they come out. If Cryptic is worried about post 60 'power' leveling from newer toons, simply reducing EXP from campaign missions for level 60 toons [or shifting it to DOff XP?] will slove it. Simply put, your making good new missions, let folk play them sooner and beifit more from doing them, not sitting them at the end of the long grind. [Or.. you know, lower the amount of EXP needed to get from 50 to 60, thou doubt will happen, but no harm in asking..please?].
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  • farmallm
    farmallm Member Posts: 4,630 Arc User
    So far the grind hadn't been that bad for me from Lv50-60. My Fed and KDF both started at Lv50 and had to work through it. The Fed had it harder since I was still learning the system and how to level. After that the KDF didn't seem as bad. Plus by then they opened up the Iconian Rep. So since I was in the Delta area I just worked on that and hit a few patrols. Now I'm only like 2 bars from Lv60. To me it didn't seem to take as long. Now my Romulan started Delta around Lv54. Since she was still working the Romulan and Dyson Reps when it came out. Now she is like Lv57 and still hadn't grind or hit any wall at this time. She may towards to end, but it won't take long. Since by then she will be way ahead.

    From what I heard, even the lower levels may not even hit the "wall".
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  • angrybobh
    angrybobh Member Posts: 420 Arc User
    I agree with lowering some of the missions levels to help out. And some leeway should be engineered in there in case Cryptic messes something up (that never happens!). Though, even with the new cardie arc, I don't think a new character hits "the wall" and has to find something new to do until they are high enough level. That problem only really happens, in my opinion(haven't tested), with old level 50 characters. I just let all my characters level up with doffing before I even considered going to the DQ. It solved the problem but not in a super fun way.
  • mjrkraken
    mjrkraken Member Posts: 40 Arc User
    Going from 0 to 60 is viable now, the issue is those who made it to end of the story arc and at 50 already, just feels too long to get to 60 with no real reason for it TBH. Grinding for spec points post 60 I understand and have no problems with, but the 10 levels to get to 60 feel needless harsh, and if more 60 only stuff going to be added while older, lower level mission are getting axed/condensed down, shuffling the older high level stuff down a few levels would help players reach 60 more enjoyably, and a fun game gets more folk playing.
  • angrybobh
    angrybobh Member Posts: 420 Arc User
    mjrkraken wrote: »
    Going from 0 to 60 is viable now, the issue is those who made it to end of the story arc and at 50 already, just feels too long to get to 60 with no real reason for it TBH. Grinding for spec points post 60 I understand and have no problems with, but the 10 levels to get to 60 feel needless harsh, and if more 60 only stuff going to be added while older, lower level mission are getting axed/condensed down, shuffling the older high level stuff down a few levels would help players reach 60 more enjoyably, and a fun game gets more folk playing.

    I completely agree with everything you wrote.
  • sirmayday
    sirmayday Member Posts: 535 Arc User
    I may be off my rocker, but I kind of think that, broadly speaking, each mission should have a level requirement of one level higher than the mission before it. With some realtively minor tweaks to XP rewards leading up to that, it would flow smoothly, and that flow is already pretty much the way it works now, anyway.
  • mjrkraken
    mjrkraken Member Posts: 40 Arc User
    sirmayday wrote: »
    I may be off my rocker, but I kind of think that, broadly speaking, each mission should have a level requirement of one level higher than the mission before it. With some realtively minor tweaks to XP rewards leading up to that, it would flow smoothly, and that flow is already pretty much the way it works now, anyway.
    For new toons the progress runs well enough and in part your right. The issues is that the number of current level 60 oly missions are excessive, when reducing their levle a bit will help out more. I'd assume some sort of shuffle will happen, and the feds' cardie arc will be losing 10 missions when the redux is put in, just hoping for a bit of a break getting my 50s to 60 doing fun stuff, not grinding, thats more 'end game' to me, get to 60, enjoy the story, then go get your spec on.
  • xparr15
    xparr15 Member Posts: 283 Arc User
    I completely agree with this. I thought it was the original intention but apparently not.

    People are struggling to get to 60 on missions alone yet we have a growing number of missions that require you to be 60 to play. Some of these could be lowered to the upper 50's just to keep the story going through progression.

    (My perspective on the leveling wall. I began leveling my delta recruit over the triple reward weekend. I went from lvl 21 to somewhere in the 40's on solely first mission completions during the bonus exp. Since then, I have continued with first mission playthroughs and some advanced queues and a few patrols for rep marks. I have not hit it yet but I am estimating to hit a level wall at 58. This is with a ton of extra exp from the bonus weekend. Based on this, I think it would be reasonable to downgrade some of the delta and iconian mission level requirements. Especially as more missions are made.)
  • gulberat
    gulberat Member Posts: 5,505 Arc User
    edited September 2015
    I definitely did hit the wall on my Delta Recruit, so it's not just an "old toon" thing.

    I think the reasonable thing would be to have you hit 60 at the end of the Iconian arc. It even makes some sort of sense from a story perspective--you've just proven yourself more capable than the individual who was supposed to have commanded the Iconian war effort, so that might be the point to reward your character with command of an entire fleet. (I'd still ignore a lot of the backstory for the purposes of writing my characters, but strictly in-game that's how I'd do it since we are stuck with the whole admiral thing.)

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  • salazarraze
    salazarraze Member Posts: 3,789 Arc User
    Yeah getting to 60 isn't as big of a deal now. At least you don't "have to" endlessly grind Argala all day.
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  • seaofsorrows
    seaofsorrows Member Posts: 10,889 Arc User
    edited September 2015
    I absolutely feel the level requirements should be dropped.

    The requirements for the Delta and Iconian arcs should both be 50 just like the Dyson arc.

    My biggest issue with the level requirement is that some of the Delta and Iconian missions award items that would be nice items to use while you're working on your Reputation and getting the gear you want. The problem is, since the missions require you to be level 60, by the time you get there, the rewards are no longer useful to you.

    The Delta Arc was originally given level requirements because the developers felt the content would be too hard for characters of lower level, which turned out to not be true at all. The content can easily be completed by level 50+ even with average equipment. There is simply no reason to put level requirements on the missions, it's just an unnecessary restriction.
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  • coupaholic
    coupaholic Member Posts: 2,188 Arc User
    All I can say is thank God for XP weekends. If I ever have a fancy to create a new Captain I always wait until close to an XP weekend so I can get a good headstart on levelling.

    Even with this it is possible to struggle with the last few levels. I don't mind lofty skill point requirements for a level, but I would like to see a more consistent levelling curve. As it is now you still feel like the hill turns into a mountain once you hit 50.​​
  • seriousdave
    seriousdave Member Posts: 2,777 Arc User
    I absolutely feel the level requirements should be dropped.

    The requirements for the Delta and Iconian arcs should both be 50 just like the Dyson arc.

    My biggest issue with the level requirement is that some of the Delta and Iconian missions award items that would be nice items to use while you're working on your Reputation and getting the gear you want. The problem is, since the missions require you to be level 60, by the time you get there, the rewards are no longer useful to you.

    There, that is whats really poorly planed out with all these new missions.

    Almost all the new items added over the last months were rendered completely pointless after the episodes were moved into the regular arc. The sol defense set is probably the best example for this.
    Somewhat useful for now since one can get it before the great endgame grind starts but in 2 weeks it pretty much pointless since people will only be able to get it once they're lvl 60 and already have a good chunk of rep and/or fleet stuff.
  • seaofsorrows
    seaofsorrows Member Posts: 10,889 Arc User
    edited September 2015
    ruinthefun wrote: »
    I don't see how this makes any sense at all, because there is, in fact, no real difference between characters of level 50 and characters of level 60. You're using the same stuff the entire time. In fact, things actually get worse because the enemy HP scaling goes completely whack between 50 and 60, while you gain pretty much nothing, your gear remaining the same.

    I'm not sure what you mean here, but there is a big difference in gear between a fresh 50 and a 60. At 50 you unlock STF's and the Reputation system. From there, even a sponsored character has at least 1-2 weeks to get their Rep gear, between unlocking the 5 tiers and saving up Marks and Dilithium for each piece. I'm not sure how you can honestly think there is no difference between a 50 and a 60.

    As seriousdave further illustrated above, a set like the Sol Defense Set would be a nice set to use while you're waiting to put together the resources for your Iconian set, Nukara Set, etc. But the problem is, the Sol pieces are rewarded from a mission that requires you to be level 60 to even play. By the time you're level 60, you already have better then what the mission offers.

    The items are useful at level 50, not level 60. The level restrictions prevent these rewards from being useful.
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  • ilithyn
    ilithyn Member Posts: 900 Arc User
    It may not be as big of a deal as it was, but unless you're lucky enough to run into an xp bonus weekend or something similar the level gate in the Delta missions are still a nuisance. I know because I made a new character the other week and started levelling her, sticking more or less to the straight and narrow of playing missions only. I hit the level gate at 55. I'm now 57 thanks to a bunch of Red Alerts an system patrol (yeah, the Delta ones too. ugh) and I just finished the last two ground missions on Kobali an next mission if Rebellion, but I have vowed not to touch another mission until I'm well into level 59 as I'm already tired of constantly getting level gated in the story.

    I honestly shudder to think of what it as like when Delta Rising came out and everyone was level 50 and would continuously hit the level gate much harder than I did. My greatest respect to the old guard and I really do see why that expansion has been so... unpopular.

    And as a couple of others here pointed out, the set items you can get are good for level 50-60 while you work on rep and stuff. After 60... bot so much since most of us will be well on our way to getting rep sets that are better.
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  • seaofsorrows
    seaofsorrows Member Posts: 10,889 Arc User
    ruinthefun wrote: »
    Exactly. All those things unlock at 50. There's not a single piece you have to wait until 60 to get or use, every single piece of gear is usable immediately at level 50. You can then upgrade all those things to full MK XIV gold, and they will still all be level 50 items. In short, you pretty much hit peak relative power at 50 and things go downhill from that point on. At 50, you've got the most powerful things you're going to ever have relative to the enemies you're using them on, and from that point on, enemies get tougher while your gear remains the same.

    They unlock at 50, you don't have them at 50.

    I'm not sure how long it's been since you have leveled a character, but you don't just get everything the second you hit level 50. Rep system unlocks at level 0 across the board. What level 50 has the resources to craft all their gear and push it to mark XIV epic day 1?

    Everything you have described is attained during the climb that starts at level 50, you don't just get everything day 1. The set items would help you to when you're running STFs and saving your marks and dilithum for gear. When you hit 50, the grind starts and it takes quite a while to complete. You're making it sound like all you do is hit 50 and you're maxed out, you're not.

    I have no idea why you would think a fresh 50 has access to all that stuff, but they absolutely do not.
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  • xyquarze
    xyquarze Member Posts: 2,091 Arc User
    Personally, I would try to avoid Bonus-XP during the first steps on a new toon. While the head start on the possible levelling wall is a nice incentive indeed, the gear doesn't scale up and if you do not have hand-me-downs from older toons, you may be stuck with Mk II green weapons. This is especially true for ground missions, and even moreso for Roms/Klinks before they get to their first new ship through the story line. The Khitomer fight as a Rom while still in your starting ship at level 30+ is a nice test of your inner calmness.

    Also, from what I experience, many players do not do the rep grind as consistently. ("Many" does not mean "the majority" here, I have no idea about relative numbers, but I think the absolute numbers are somewhat high) They do the odd STF but mostly rely on "in game" drops (red alerts) and maybe the fallout of events. So the gear is still interesting to them. Also I consider it quite interesting to explore some of the possibilities that new set options offer, and especially the Kobali and the "Butterfly" set don't seem that useless to me.

    But as for the OP: I think that a normal playthrough (no XP bonusses applying, decent spread over time so that some XP may come from doffing) should not make you hit a wall. Maybe a small fence you can easily jump (two patrols, one STF, similar, every other mission), but certainly no 30k XP missing would be nice. Can't say how it works though, since I have only little time to play more than one mission at most but log on to do my daily doffing, so I am always overlevelled anyway.
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  • ilithyn
    ilithyn Member Posts: 900 Arc User
    xyquarze wrote: »
    Personally, I would try to avoid Bonus-XP during the first steps on a new toon. While the head start on the possible levelling wall is a nice incentive indeed, the gear doesn't scale up and if you do not have hand-me-downs from older toons, you may be stuck with Mk II green weapons. This is especially true for ground missions, and even moreso for Roms/Klinks before they get to their first new ship through the story line. The Khitomer fight as a Rom while still in your starting ship at level 30+ is a nice test of your inner calmness.

    Omg, I get flashbacks to my Rom Delta recruit who ended up in exactly that situation due to the xp bonus during the event XD. I learned the hard way how to best utilise the cloaking device and the advantages of hit and hide tactics. Even with the added decent equipment that Delta's got it was a true frustrating experience as the low hull meant I kept blowing up and the enemies healed to full health each time.
    So yeah, until you get the first ship as a Rom and/or Klingon staying clear of xp bonus events are words to live by.


    xyquarze wrote: »
    But as for the OP: I think that a normal playthrough (no XP bonusses applying, decent spread over time so that some XP may come from doffing) should not make you hit a wall. Maybe a small fence you can easily jump (two patrols, one STF, similar, every other mission), but certainly no 30k XP missing would be nice. Can't say how it works though, since I have only little time to play more than one mission at most but log on to do my daily doffing, so I am always overlevelled anyway.

    I could even live with a 30k or 50k gap to next mission if it happened once. But once you hit mid Delta mission on normal levelling you keep hitting into that. Actually a lot of the time it's more of a 300k-700k gap, so in fact I'd take the 30k gap even if repeated over things as they are now.
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  • seaofsorrows
    seaofsorrows Member Posts: 10,889 Arc User
    edited September 2015
    I'm going to try one more time to see if I can explain the point. I'll try it like this...

    1. You reach level 50.
    2. You start doing content designed to get you the gear you want.
    3. After spending X number of weeks doing content for marks/dilithium you get your gear.

    That is the progression in it's most simple form right?

    While you're doing step 2 you have to have something on your ship. Mission rewards like the Sol set are great for players to use while they do this content. It's 'free' as far as resources go, you just replay a mission 3 times and bam.. you have your set. You throw that on your ship with whatever weapons you have and you're off. You go get marks and you replace that gear with your 'end game gear.'

    We still on the same page?

    Right now, most people use the Solane Set for this. You get it free at level 50 for just doing 'A step between stars' 3 times.. boom, done. The Sol set would be a nice alternative to this, but is not available at this point because the mission is level 60. Most players spend levels 50-60 grinding content for their gear, by they time they hit 60, they no longer have need for something like the Sol set.

    Either way,there is absolutely no logical reason at all for the Iconian Arc to require level 60.. none. One thing we both agree on is that the Iconian mission rewards are obsolete by the time you reach 60. That we agree on, we're spending time arguing rather it's already outdated at 50 which is irrelevant to the topic at hand to begin with.

    One last small thing through.
    ruinthefun wrote: »
    All the STFs you'd be running aren't even accessible until *60*, despite the fact that absolutely nothing changes between 50 and 60, anyway.

    That's not true. The only thing you have to wait until 60 to do are elite ques. All normal and Advanced Ques unlock at level 50.
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  • fovrel
    fovrel Member Posts: 1,444 Arc User
    Another weird thing and I don't know if it is intended is this. New missions are for level 60, but when they are introduced, they can be played from level 10. If you do it, or select the mission, you can play or replay it even when it is placed at level 60. I have several characters below level 60 that can play the level 60 mission.

    One my characters was level 59. I could not play the final missions of the Delta arc, but I could play two Iconian missions.

    I hope Cryptic change things so all missions can be played at level 50. As is said, the rewards of the level 60 missions are obsolete by the time you can do those missions.
  • bobbydazlers
    bobbydazlers Member Posts: 4,532 Arc User
    edited September 2015
    mjrkraken wrote: »
    With the redux of the Cardie arc, the growing number of level 60 requriment missions and the possible additon of a new arc with season 11, is there any way the level requirements for latter arcs be lowered [including? Helping folk reach 60 more 'funly' rather than grinding and letting them access any new arcs that are to come. I enjoy playing STO and running though the mission arcs but the brick wall of 50 to 60 drains much enthuisaum, and the prosect of not being able to enjoy any new content due to it is not a fun prosect. I understand reaching 60 was not ment to be easy, but in the curent from its.. not enjoyable, and a game that isn't fun isn't helping it self. reducing the level requiremtn for latter arcs will help those stuggling to make 60 have a fun and enjoyable ride, as well as getting to play new missions as they come out. If Cryptic is worried about post 60 'power' leveling from newer toons, simply reducing EXP from campaign missions for level 60 toons [or shifting it to DOff XP?] will slove it. Simply put, your making good new missions, let folk play them sooner and beifit more from doing them, not sitting them at the end of the long grind. [Or.. you know, lower the amount of EXP needed to get from 50 to 60, thou doubt will happen, but no harm in asking..please?].

    i dont know how many times I need to say this but getting from level 50 to level 60 is not hard and certainly not a boring grind, its only players that insist on playing the same stuff over and over because it awards the highest marks that find it a hard boring grind.
    and the thing is once you have reached level 60 and you have played the missions you are so desperate to play what are you going to do, go back to playing the stuff you played before you reached level 60 most likely.

    I had my 3 main characters up to level 60 very quickly after the season 10 launch, it took me about 6 weeks in total for all 3 and I only play 2 or 3 hours a day on average, that's equivalent to 30 levels in 6 weeks I think that's pretty good, ok so its slower then levelling to 50 but its hardly a brick wall.
    I did this just by playing random stuff that I fancied playing that day and didn't find getting to level 60 boring at all, having said that once I reached level 60 I did not even then rush my way through all the stories and have only just now completed the delta line and still have all of the iconian line to play through, whats the rush once thay are played they are played and then its just back to killing time with general play until the next story comes out.

    I also have my 3 delta recruits up to level 60 now mostly just from doing doff missions, I will probably not even bother playing the delta or iconian stories with them anyway, they are only for farming and playing the odd event with high dil rewards anyway.

    take my advice, go back to playing the stuff you enjoy and just play random each day, surly you can find some stuff to do in the game each day that fun and different, theres a whole list of story and non story missions on wiki if your stuck.

    you will be lv60 before you know it.

    the funny part is apart from the story missions theres nothing particularly special about being at lv60 anyway most of the game knocks you back down to lv50 when you play it anyway.
    Post edited by bobbydazlers on

    When I think about everything we've been through together,

    maybe it's not the destination that matters, maybe it's the journey,

     and if that journey takes a little longer,

    so we can do something we all believe in,

     I can't think of any place I'd rather be or any people I'd rather be with.

  • captainhunter1
    captainhunter1 Member Posts: 1,589 Arc User
    I'm all for an 'adjustment' on the Delta Rising content.

    'Rising' would have been a big hit if it hadn't been for the artificial XP gaps built into it. The content itself is great; the having to grind levels between the content - truly bad.
  • bobbydazlers
    bobbydazlers Member Posts: 4,532 Arc User
    edited September 2015
    I'm all for an 'adjustment' on the Delta Rising content.

    'Rising' would have been a big hit if it hadn't been for the artificial XP gaps built into it. The content itself is great; the having to grind levels between the content - truly bad.

    so don't grind levels between content, level up first then you can play all of the content without having to worry about intermittent grind, seems like a sensible solution to me.

    as I said in my last comment 6 weeks to level 3 characters from lv50 to lv60, if I had focused my play on one character at a time I could have got the first to lv60 in about 2 weeks, surely you can wait 2 weeks to play the story content.
    in truth you probably would not have to wait all the way to lv60 in any case but I don't know what level you would need to be for an uninterrupted play through the story content.

    what some fail to realise is that before they added the extra 10 levels many of us had been playing at lv50 for years, i guess for some when you have been stuck at that level for so long the short time it took in comparison to get those extra 10 levels didn't seem so bad especially if your in no rush to play the story content anyway.
    Post edited by bobbydazlers on

    When I think about everything we've been through together,

    maybe it's not the destination that matters, maybe it's the journey,

     and if that journey takes a little longer,

    so we can do something we all believe in,

     I can't think of any place I'd rather be or any people I'd rather be with.

  • fovrel
    fovrel Member Posts: 1,444 Arc User
    edited September 2015
    So you say, level up and then play the story missions. That is certainly a method. but, eh, how? The story missions give by far the best xp to time ratio. It is fun to do patrols, reputation missions, queues, whatever, but the fun goes away if you have to do it to get access to other content. You have to play A to play B. There is no problem if you want to play A, but there is if you want to play B.

    I played CCA on several characters, some of them had the project half filled from last year, so I did the event 1 and a half in some cases. I found it fun, so I had no problem to do it, however it did not bring me any noticable xp. The xp gaps between the missions are bad game design and I predict it will be fixed adjusted.
  • nikephorus
    nikephorus Member Posts: 2,737 Arc User
    I absolutely feel the level requirements should be dropped.

    The requirements for the Delta and Iconian arcs should both be 50 just like the Dyson arc.

    My biggest issue with the level requirement is that some of the Delta and Iconian missions award items that would be nice items to use while you're working on your Reputation and getting the gear you want. The problem is, since the missions require you to be level 60, by the time you get there, the rewards are no longer useful to you.

    The Delta Arc was originally given level requirements because the developers felt the content would be too hard for characters of lower level, which turned out to not be true at all. The content can easily be completed by level 50+ even with average equipment. There is simply no reason to put level requirements on the missions, it's just an unnecessary restriction.

    This is my opinion as well. Thanks for writing it and saving me the trouble. B)
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  • tempus64
    tempus64 Member Posts: 806 Arc User
    edited September 2015
    This thread is funny. On the one hand you have people who want to rush from start to 60 and so are irritated with being stopped due to the level requirements. Then you have others who get a toon to level 11 or so and then have them sit there doing doffing and maybe some foundry and/or things like traelus until they finally reach 50+ and thus can still do almost all the storyline (I have 2 toons that I started about half way through the summer event and they're at about level 58 and are only up to about the wasteland arc).

    The guy saying everything is available at 50 is "sort of" correct. Obviously not the stuff from the arcs that have a level requirement. But he's sort of highlighting the "I'm not in a rush" method. What I've done is when some event comes along, I farm the marks I'll need. Like the summer event. Had all the marks I would need on the level 10-30 toons I had at the time. Hit level 50 with them and reps all done in 20 days. In fact, some of that equipment was available the day after hitting level 50.

    The only thing I really agree with in here is that the equipment like the SOL set would be useful much earlier. But then again all games including this one suffer from this design issue. Equipment you could use for some mission/arc or whatever, is rewarded from the missions themselves lol.