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Reason for lack of Science ships in KDF and why
shadowmane20001
Member Posts: 70 Arc User
I got into a discussion with friends on a fleet channel about Ships for the various faction. Fed, KDF, Romulan and I had heard someone lamenting over the fact there are no TRUE KDF Science ships. About how the KDF NEEDS more Science ships. And I do not believe so, well.... maybe one or two more. And how I feel that the ship style for each faction should be more defined.
I pointed out that The KDF is a militant empire. Picking over rocks, studying nebula, finding anomalies in a star is not going to interest them beyond, Can we use this tho build better weapons or armor, Can we use this nebula to launch an attack on an enemy, or be attacked from, Is someone tampering with this star trying to destroy it. As a result most of their ships are and should by default Lean Strongly to the tactical and engineering, High Offense High defense. More towards offense than defense. Klingons explore to conquer.
The Federation are the scholars more defensively minded. What is special about these rocks, are there fossils in them? How old are these rocks? A nebula? Let's see what we have here, what is it composed of. What elements are in it something new? The star is producing some anomalous readings? Let us see what is causing it. As a result their ships are could to lean towards Engineering and Science ships. Generally they are not to build war ships. Even Sisko said, Offically the Defiant is an Escort. Unofficially she is a war ship. Given the threat the Iconians and Borg presented, it is understandable they would develop some limited war ships. They are Explorers.
The Romulans their culture is similar to the Klingons. In that they conquer, but they are subversive. Stealth minded, despite the Romulan republic being open to the KDF and federation. This is culture and is something that is honed at a genetic level to a point. Humans are Social by nature, Klingons are aggressive by nature, Romulans are secretive by nature. As a result their ship designs would lean to Science and Tactical. The best way to under mind an enemy is by learning all about him. They are still Romulans and they are going to keep building their ships in line with what works best for them.
As a result The Klingons ships will and should always be tactical and engineering opposed to science based.
The Federation should will and should always be engineering based and science based opposed to tactical.
The Romulans would lean towards science and tactical based.
If the devs took every ship in the game and made it accessible to the other factions. Same ship, different faction, New skin. You are taking away and injecting things into their culture things that don't make sense. The Ratio should be 3,2,1. And Hybrid ships should always lean to their primary focus. It gives them a unique cultural flare that you can ONLY get with that particular faction.
For the Klingons
3 tactical based ships for every 2 engineering based ship for every 1 science ship. So at least half the ships in the klingon empire are war based. while a full third are defensively minded with engineering. And only one-sixth should be science ships.
For the Federation
3 engineering ships for every 2 science ships to every 1 tactical ship
For the Romulans
3 science based ships for every 2 tactical ships to ever 1 engineering ship
What do you all think?
I pointed out that The KDF is a militant empire. Picking over rocks, studying nebula, finding anomalies in a star is not going to interest them beyond, Can we use this tho build better weapons or armor, Can we use this nebula to launch an attack on an enemy, or be attacked from, Is someone tampering with this star trying to destroy it. As a result most of their ships are and should by default Lean Strongly to the tactical and engineering, High Offense High defense. More towards offense than defense. Klingons explore to conquer.
The Federation are the scholars more defensively minded. What is special about these rocks, are there fossils in them? How old are these rocks? A nebula? Let's see what we have here, what is it composed of. What elements are in it something new? The star is producing some anomalous readings? Let us see what is causing it. As a result their ships are could to lean towards Engineering and Science ships. Generally they are not to build war ships. Even Sisko said, Offically the Defiant is an Escort. Unofficially she is a war ship. Given the threat the Iconians and Borg presented, it is understandable they would develop some limited war ships. They are Explorers.
The Romulans their culture is similar to the Klingons. In that they conquer, but they are subversive. Stealth minded, despite the Romulan republic being open to the KDF and federation. This is culture and is something that is honed at a genetic level to a point. Humans are Social by nature, Klingons are aggressive by nature, Romulans are secretive by nature. As a result their ship designs would lean to Science and Tactical. The best way to under mind an enemy is by learning all about him. They are still Romulans and they are going to keep building their ships in line with what works best for them.
As a result The Klingons ships will and should always be tactical and engineering opposed to science based.
The Federation should will and should always be engineering based and science based opposed to tactical.
The Romulans would lean towards science and tactical based.
If the devs took every ship in the game and made it accessible to the other factions. Same ship, different faction, New skin. You are taking away and injecting things into their culture things that don't make sense. The Ratio should be 3,2,1. And Hybrid ships should always lean to their primary focus. It gives them a unique cultural flare that you can ONLY get with that particular faction.
For the Klingons
3 tactical based ships for every 2 engineering based ship for every 1 science ship. So at least half the ships in the klingon empire are war based. while a full third are defensively minded with engineering. And only one-sixth should be science ships.
For the Federation
3 engineering ships for every 2 science ships to every 1 tactical ship
For the Romulans
3 science based ships for every 2 tactical ships to ever 1 engineering ship
What do you all think?
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Comments
Their need for raw materials
Their need for power generation
Their need for physical expansion of their territories
One often forgets that the exact same things which make a good science ship are also the things needed to make a good spy ship, and the Klingons excel at military intelligence.
It is my opinion that every small Klingon ship is at least in part a science ship, which is why I based my wish-list T6 Klingon Science Ship on the Bird of Prey hull. The Klingons would have sent waves of scout ships to explore ahead of their path of expansion, and waves of intelligence ships behind them to learn what they could about a region long before the dedicated warships arrive.
I have always thought it odd that many players and Trek enthusiasts insist that Klingons do not support science or investigation for the sake of expanding their understanding of the universe. If this were true they could not have developed an interstellar empire.
Knowledge is power; power is life. Actually, this should be the motto engraved over the Klingon Academy of Sciences entrance.
Discussion between Klingon father and son:
Father: Your ancestors were warriors; they await you in the halls of Sto'vo'kor. If you turn aside from the path of the warrior you will dishonor them, disgrace our name, and bring an end to our family's place in this community.
Son: Father, I am a warrior, but my battlefield is the battlefield of knowledge, which I shall wrest from the very universe itself. For ages the scientist has waged this war, and when pressed by the Fekliri, the Hurc, the Undine, it has been the scientist who armed the warrior for battle.
Father: Farmers and craftsmen have their place in our society, but their place is not in the halls of the honored dead.
Son: Your father's day was the age of the Warrior-Poet. Perhaps my day is the age of the Warrior-Scientist. I do not forsake the ways of our honored ancestors, but I must live in the time I am given. The battles I will wage are battles of knowledge. If my ancestors see no honor in such a battle, I will accept their judgement. But there is a war being fought even now in this new peace: it is a war of technology; I will not stand by and allow our people to lose that war.
I actually want to experiment with binding all the weapons except the Proton DHC to a button (just ignore them and avoid there energy drain), and experimenting with switching between modes.
Now the lack of T6 factional Science ships is anouther matter entirely. I'd like to see a Gorn & Reman designed Sci Ship for each faction. Gorn with LTC Intel. Reman one like a cross between the Faeht & the Scryer.
But back to the Dyson ships I advocate that the KDF would like a Dual mode Science ship, that can switch into a more aggressive role.
So I don't really have a big issue with this, even with 7 of my 12 characters KDF, 3 of them RRW, and only 2 Feds.
Disclaimer: My Fed Sci uses a T5U Nebula, My Gorn Sci has the Krenn & Korath, while my Reman Sci uses the Vet Ship, and my Ferasan Sci a Pilot Ship or BoP.
The Klingons were conquered people once by the Hur'q, they rebelled and reversed engineered their technology and entered into a intergalactic war against them, the klingons won and formed an empire
Klingons have no the same intelligence as the federation or ANY other race or else, they wouldn't been in war with the cardassians in DS9, they thought there were shapeshifters, even if there weren't shapeshifter. They still wager war against them. because they wanted to conquer them
and If they excelled in intelligence, how comes that the klingons didn't know of the shapeshifter posing as martok, one of their generals during the dominion war, where the founders were the mayor spies and threat? they were saved by federation officers
Klingons are warriors, they see engineering and science as tool for conquest and to enhancer their warmachine
I completely agree. Which is why I would be the most fearful of tactical sci ships. Imagine a bird of prey coming at you Tachyon beam 1, charged particle burst 1, gravity well 1, followed up with Target engines 1, Torpedo high yield 2, cannon rapid fire 2, attack pattern omega 3.
And if it had a commander sci
Tractor beam 1, tachyon beam 2, charged particle burst 2, Gravity well 3. Target engines 1, torpedo high yield 2, attack pattern Omega 2, Or beta 3.
Simple fact of the matter is Cryptic doesn't give a damn and doesn't want to make Science ships...they just don't make as much money as Escorts and Cruisers.
They have proven they can make good or even powerful Science ships...but they flat out don't give a damn.
They make Science ships suck and they wonder why people don't fly them? Well lots of people bought and flew the Vesta...which was a good Sci ship...the Temporal Sci ship and Voth Sci ship were good ships...but they're lock box based...the Annorax is a great ship...but also luck based.
Anyone seeing a pattern here? Almost every single great Science ship ever made were premium luck based ships...once again the Bortasqu' effect at work...they just intentionally don't make good Science ships unless it's for premium gamble based loot...and they don't make them often so every time they actually release one it is desired.
"He shall be my finest warrior, this generic man who was forced upon me.
Like a badass I shall make him look, and in the furnace of war I shall forge him.
he shall be of iron will and steely sinew.
In great armour I shall clad him and with the mightiest weapons he shall be armed.
He will be untouched by plague or disease; no sickness shall blight him.
He shall have such tactics, strategies and machines that no foe will best him in battle.
He is my answer to cryptic logic, he is the Defender of my Romulan Crew.
He is Tovan Khev... and he shall know no fear."
The BEST response in this thread, IMHO.
They certainly don't want it. Exploring science might require enough introspection for them to realize what a bunch of honorless petaQpu' they've been since K'mpec died.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
Then why don't Romulans want it...they aren't Warriors...
The second most important thing to remember is that the key vessel we associate with Star Trek and Starfleet exploration have been Cruisers. The Enterprise and Enterprise D are Cruisers, not Science Vessels, and they were sent out on 5 year or 20 year exploration missions, not Science Vessels. The ship Cryptic classified as Science Vessel was originally sent to hunt down a Maquis Raider in the Badlands - not to explore the Delta Quadrant.
The reason why Romulans or KLingons should have or have not Science Vessels is pretty much only a question of game design. You can find story arguments for either position.
But from a gameplay perspective, there are two classes that I think are definitely more important than Science Vessels for the KDF: Carriers and Bird of Preys. These used to be unique ship types, and there still aren't Tier 6 variants of them available. A Science Vessel would be nice to have, but SVs aren't unique to the Klingons. BOP and Carrier are.
At this point my KDF science character would fly a giant space TRIBBLE if it had a commander science, 5 science consoles, and better stats than the gimped varanus.
Also, there's no canon argument as to why the RR has no t6 science ship.
Scientific and technological advancement of a society often correlates with their warfare applications. Wars are often decided by technological superiority, which is directly related to a society's level of scientific advancement.
This is why every great threat to the Federation has tended to also be technologically superior in one way or another.
So, especially in an era of such technological and scientific demand, a warriors ability to successfully engage in war scales positively with the science they have access to. It would thus very much serve a warrior society's interests to have a very developed pursuit of the sciences, particularly where improving their [warfare] technology is concerned.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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You'd think that, but the Bortasqu''s chief medical officer explicitly states the Klingons don't like doctors in "Day of Honor", and B'Eler doesn't even get an acknowledgement from Zapp Kagran in "House Pratfall" for using science to disable T'Ket: he gives all the credit to Emperor Leeroy Jenkins even though T'Ket was toying with him until B'Eler knocked out her invulnerability and forced her to get serious.
Given their colossal disregard for anything other than bat'leth-swinging lunatics, the Klingons' continued survival as a warp-capable society is one of the Star Trek galaxy's great conundrums.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
The OP wants to let Roms have Sci, so what's the question? (in his trifecta they would lack Eng)
My character Tsin'xing
Give them T6 Science Ships already.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
Frankly I disagree with many of your suppositions BUT, to hell with it, lets run with this, lets roll with this 3/2/1 for each tier of ship.... this would STILL more than triple available science ships to the various KDF allied races, and provide a massive boost for Romulans since we have... 2 and only 1 is t5u.
its sad that your plan, as biased and inaccurate as it is, would still benefit 2/3 of the game more than cryptic already does.
The question is, how much has a relative lack of content/features, such as science ships, factored into that population scarcity.
I actually like that factions aren't homogenised and each has unique approaches to things like ship classes.
So, you're suggesting that if the roles had always been reversed (i.e. KDF had always had the Fed treatment, and the Feds had always had the KDF treatment), we'd observe no difference in populations? Doesn't seem very likely.
Drink more Coca Cola.
I'm not disputing that most Star Trek fans are going to naturally be more inclined to favor the Federation over the KDF in general, as the franchise is built around the Federation perspective, casting them as the primary protagonists in virtually all related media.
I'm disputing that this is the only relevant thing that would influence faction choice of players in the context of a video game, particularly since players (even of the F2P variety) are all freely able to create and play multiple characters of different race and faction. I don't believe for a second that we'd be seeing similar populations as we are now had the roles been reversed, or had KDF been given the Fed treatment alongside Feds, as equals. And I don't see any reason to challenge that disbelief. This is not to say that I believe KDF would be more popular, this is simply to say that access to, and expected future access to more content/features of relatively better quality and greater qunatity is going to affect the distribution of population among competing factions. In other words, if over time players tend to observe that developers are half-assing one faction while overtly catering to another, many are going to be discouraged from bothering with the faction getting the half-assed treatment, even if they might otherwise have an interest and opportunity in investing their time and effort in that faction.