V'Ger originating from our Galaxy just doesn't add up, IMO. V'Ger amassed so much knowledge during its journey that it gained sentience. There is only so much info you can learn going from the Delta Quadrant to the Alpha Quadrant and I doubt it was enough to make V'Ger what it was. The USS Voyager traveled across the Delta Quadrant and it didn't come home a sentient organism. If V'Ger spent centuries traveling between galaxies and cataloging trillions of planets and species, that would make more sense.
During Spock's spacewalk through V'Ger he observes recordings of V'Ger's journey and he mentions how entire planets and "whole galaxies" have been recorded.
I always took that line to mean V'ger left the Galaxy to find the creator. Else it negates the line about V'ger coming out on the far side of the Galaxy.
But to me, a possible origin of both Borg and V'ger would be like this:
V'ger exits the wormhole and enters orbit of a Pre-Warp Society and is recovered for examination. Detecting radiation from Voyager's Radioscopic Power System, they used RoboTelepresence technology to analyze and study the probe from a safe location. (V'ger inteprets these devices as machine life - remember V'ger had a mentality of a child). The scientists repaired the probe and studied its transmissions and the binary code programming, then came to realize it was a simple scientific probe gathering measurements and relaying the info back to it's source.
Meanwhile, this society was in a middle of a new nanotechnology fad and had been using it for a few years, which was intended as a health benefit in repairing damaged cells, prolonging youth. It was so much of a fad that a small minority of personel in the lab used it. So one night they were attempting to access V'gers computer directry with thier computers, they didn't ground it correctly and it caused a short, damaging the nanobots of those scientists.
The wounded scientists were rushed to the hospital, and it was discovered some nanotech had fused with their nervous system. And the binary code from the probe was embedded within the core program. They effectively became robots. Seeing an opportunity, the military took over and started testing and quickly learned that the modified nanobots spread and could infect others with direct contact. They had a new biological weapon that could be used on hostile nations.
In time, they used it on their enemies with programing that instructed them to attack others and infect them. But when they reached a certain number, their behavior changed as they acted as one. Eventually the military was called in and their electronic weapons and defenses became useless when charged. And few of the officers still carred firearms, which didn't seem too effective due to sheer numbers. In time they were over ran and the some of their soliders were added to their collective. A new world wide epidemic started.
Back in the base with V'ger, the scientists were constructing a rocket to launch the probe back into space to use for testing, but it was quickly abandoned as the epidemic reached their area and they themselves started to become infected. Those scientists that were still at the probe mentally still wanted to launch back into space, this became a new directive to return the probe back to it's creator. These drones finished the rocket and improved on it with new technology such as a primiate artificial intelligence and nantotechnology clusters that allowed the probe to collect materials and repair damage. Within a year the rocket was much larger than it was originally intended and it was launched on a returning trajectory, not realizing it was sending it into intergalatic space.
Over time these primative systems expanded and eventually became V'ger. But on that unfortunate planet, they became the Borg. The planet's population was completely assimilated within five years, but they reached a plateau and could no longer advace, just survive. Until hundreds of years later when alien explorers reached their world and they themselves got infected and their technology added. And the Borg Collective began their expansion into space and continue with their directives.
To me that fit in with Trek since it had more or less a moral tale about messing with technology and it's consequenses. Though fits more like a Trek Horror story, where everyone was "lost". :P
I always took that line to mean V'ger left the Galaxy to find the creator. Else it negates the line about V'ger coming out on the far side of the Galaxy.
How does V'Ger coming from outside the Galaxy negate the line about it coming from the far side of the Galaxy? There is no specific "entrance" to our Galaxy. V'Ger could have entered from anywhere which means that if he came from the far side of the Galaxy, that would mean he entered the Galaxy from that side.
How does V'Ger coming from outside the Galaxy negate the line about it coming from the far side of the Galaxy? There is no specific "entrance" to our Galaxy. V'Ger could have entered from anywhere which means that if he came from the far side of the Galaxy, that would mean he entered the Galaxy from that side.
How does V'Ger coming from outside the Galaxy negate the line about it coming from the far side of the Galaxy? There is no specific "entrance" to our Galaxy. V'Ger could have entered from anywhere which means that if he came from the far side of the Galaxy, that would mean he entered the Galaxy from that side.
V'Ger originating from our Galaxy just doesn't add up, IMO.
What V'ger couldn't start it's journey from our Galaxy and then fly outward into Intergalactic space?
What I'm saying is: V'Ger came from another Galaxy, (Voyager 6 was most likely transported there by whatever the so called "Black Hole" was), and when it finally returned to our Galaxy it arrived in the region we call the Delta Quadrant. Once in the Delta Quadrant it proceeded to make it's way towards the Alpha Quadrant. This allows the two lines about cataloging galaxies and coming from the far side of our Galaxy to coexist.
It'd be cool if we ran into the machine planet responsible for repairing the probe and sending it home as V'Ger.
By now their technology would be so advanced however they may look as if they have ascended to a higher plane of existence to us. I mean back when the Enterprise made contact the technology was already capable of constructing machines out of energy. Kind of like an Iconian...
What I'm saying is: V'Ger came from another Galaxy, (Voyager 6 was most likely transported there by whatever the so called "Black Hole" was), and when it finally returned to our Galaxy it arrived in the region we call the Delta Quadrant. Once in the Delta Quadrant it proceeded to make it's way towards the Alpha Quadrant. This allows the two lines about cataloging galaxies and coming from the far side of our Galaxy to coexist.
But the line was "the other side of the Galaxy" not "the other side of the Universe".
What I'm saying is: V'Ger came from another Galaxy, (Voyager 6 was most likely transported there by whatever the so called "Black Hole" was), and when it finally returned to our Galaxy it arrived in the region we call the Delta Quadrant. Once in the Delta Quadrant it proceeded to make it's way towards the Alpha Quadrant. This allows the two lines about cataloging galaxies and coming from the far side of our Galaxy to coexist.
But the line was "the other side of the Galaxy" not "the other side of the Universe".
Speculation. They don't know for sure where V'Ger came from. Technically speaking Spock's description of V'Ger's journey is also speculative, since he says this could be a record of V'Ger's entire journey. However the fact that V'Ger had cataloged and stored information on entire galaxies would imply he did travel to those places. The amount of knowledge it amassed would need to have come from traveling more than 70,000 light-years.
I think the bigger point everyone is missing is NASA is totally slacking here, they have only launched 2 voyager probes, and that was about 37 years ago. At this pace voyager 6 will not be ready to launch till the 27th century.
I know this might sound insane, but what if V'ger had a baby via Decker and whatshername? If that grew up and decided to split from its 'mothers', could the biomechanical being it was be the basis for the borg as, like some borg, it sought to make its own family but due to its nature could only do so by assimilation?
the story of V'ger was told and completed over 30 years ago, why go back to make some campy marvel-comic-book like connection? It's unoriginal and there are plenty of new stories to be told.
This, basically. We don_t have to destroy every story we had in star Trek with crappy retcons that don't make sense.
V'Ger contradicts the Borg's depiction. Rodenberry "hinted" at it because he had nothing to do with the creation of the Borg and didn't really care and everything we know about V'Ger and Borg doesn't mix. The Fan-theory from some game including black holes and timetravel is, well... everything that involves black holes and timetravel to retcon something is bound to fail.
Linking V'Ger and the Borg is horrendously superficial as the assumption is basically "they look techy, they must be the same!". It's like linking Gorn and Voth because they're both reptiles and as such, of course, have to be exactly the same...
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It shouldn't be too difficult to find the origin planet of V'GER, after all it digitized and absorbed everything it encountered during it's journey back to earth...
All one has to do is follow the gaping path of Nothing V'GER left in it's wake.
Absorbing whole star systems and eventually galaxies, would certainly leave behind an obvious trail as the sudden loss of those gravity wells, would be seen in the deformation of space along said path.
Other systems and galaxies would suddenly move in abnormal manners to fill in the gaps.
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The B'Gers, unless we silently ignore them, give some reason to create a connection to V'Ger. So at least for STO; we might want to create a connection even if regular canon doesn't require it at all.
My take:
The Borg located a new interesting planet and send a cube for assimilation. BUt when they arrive, the star system is gone - instead, they find V'Ger. Intrigued, the Borg send their usual "Don't shoot us, we just want to assimilate you" message, and get promptly digitized. The Collective's interest is piqued, so they send more ships, and lose a bunch of them, each time gathering more and more data about the ship. Eventually, V'Ger realizes that it doesn't matter how many Borg she digitizes, she isn't getting any more information out of it (since the Borg are a collective), so she flies away bored. The Borg learned enough about V'Ger that they could replicate some of the tech, and created the B'Gers.
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the story of V'ger was told and completed over 30 years ago, why go back to make some campy marvel-comic-book like connection? It's unoriginal and there are plenty of new stories to be told.
Because it can be fun and imaginative to try to connect the past with future additions. And the beauty of it is nobody is right or wrong. Whatever you think the connection between V'Ger and the Borg is is correct. If you think the Borg are V'Ger's babies and descendents you are just as correct as someone who thinks there's no connection at all.
That's why I think Sha Ka Ree is a criminal Cytherian imprisoned on a barren world in the center of the galaxy, not because it's said so in TMP or even implied in The Nth Degree but because I like to make that connection.
To me there are too many similarities for them to not be related in some way but anyone who thinks different is just as correct as I am.
And I don't like to think V'Ger's story was completed. I actually think it's story will be a lot more interesting now that's merged with a human. It will have the capacity for empathy, morality, love, hate, all the qualities that humans possess. But that's my imagination at work.
That's why I think Sha Ka Ree is a criminal Cytherian imprisoned on a barren world in the center of the galaxy, not because it's said so in TMP or even implied in The Nth Degree but because I like to make that connection.
Hmm, I actually like this explaination and does seem to make sense. And Sha'ka'ree was as close to the Galactic Center as the Cytherian homeworld, except on the opposite side of the Galactic Core. Though how would the Cytherians get there since all their space travel was by those probes???
Speculation. They don't know for sure where V'Ger came from. Technically speaking Spock's description of V'Ger's journey is also speculative, since he says this could be a record of V'Ger's entire journey. However the fact that V'Ger had cataloged and stored information on entire galaxies would imply he did travel to those places. The amount of knowledge it amassed would need to have come from traveling more than 70,000 light-years.
But your speculating the speculation.
There's no dialogue that contradicts nor correct's Kirk's comment about it appearing on the other side of the Galaxy. Because your argument is no different than someone saying "no way V'ger recorded entire galaxies. So therefore V'ger never left the galaxy". That's why we have to take the dialogue at face value, unless there is an official comment or literature that says otherwise.
There's no dialogue that contradicts nor correct's Kirk's comment about it appearing on the other side of the Galaxy.
How exactly is Kirk coming to this conclusion though? Decker says Voyager 6 encountered an anomaly and Kirk assumed it must have appeared on the other side of the Galaxy. Where is his evidence to support the claim?
"no way V'ger recorded entire galaxies. So therefore V'ger never left the galaxy".
Of course you wouldn't assume V'Ger left the Galaxy if there was no indication that it did. But there is information about other galaxies stored within' V'Ger and it would be logical to assume it had recorded that information first hand. I mean, I wouldn't say I cataloged entire Egyptian Pyramids without ever leaving Michigan. Why say V'Ger cataloged entire galaxies without ever leaving the Milky Way?
I already said both were speculative but Kirk based his speculation on nothing and Spock based his speculation on what he saw in V'Ger's database. I'd feel safer about Spock's guesses than most other people's facts.
I am on the boat with leaving the V'ger story where it should have been left, back in the 70s. Why does everything interesting or mysterious need to be explained away until it becomes cheesy? What made TMP so appealing was that it left a lot of questions at the end, that didn't actually ask to be answered. Star Trek could have used a lot more of those unsolved mysteries like that. When they started coming up with generic answers to explain away every thing in the universe, it started getting really obnoxious. Just wait, when we go to the Gamma Quadrant, we will already know everything there is to know about it because: whatever.
There's no dialogue that contradicts nor correct's Kirk's comment about it appearing on the other side of the Galaxy.
How exactly is Kirk coming to this conclusion though? Decker says Voyager 6 encountered an anomaly and Kirk assumed it must have appeared on the other side of the Galaxy. Where is his evidence to support the claim?
Then I'll have to concede the point. But if it's ever decided there is a Borg Connection, then Kirk's statement would then be indeed fact. Since the Borg Homeworld is essentially on the far side of the galaxy.
Of course you wouldn't assume V'Ger left the Galaxy if there was no indication that it did. But there is information about other galaxies stored within' V'Ger and it would be logical to assume it had recorded that information first hand. I mean, I wouldn't say I cataloged entire Egyptian Pyramids without ever leaving Michigan. Why say V'Ger cataloged entire galaxies without ever leaving the Milky Way?
I already said both were speculative but Kirk based his speculation on nothing and Spock based his speculation on what he saw in V'Ger's database. I'd feel safer about Spock's guesses than most other people's facts.
And Vice Versa, you cannot disprove that that it did not. What we learn is minimal, hence why we have to take the information at face value, which is always the intention of storytellers.
I am on the boat with leaving the V'ger story where it should have been left, back in the 70s. Why does everything interesting or mysterious need to be explained away until it becomes cheesy? What made TMP so appealing was that it left a lot of questions at the end, that didn't actually ask to be answered. Star Trek could have used a lot more of those unsolved mysteries like that. When they started coming up with generic answers to explain away every thing in the universe, it started getting really obnoxious. Just wait, when we go to the Gamma Quadrant, we will already know everything there is to know about it because: whatever.
Well yeah they didn't ask to be answered because they weren't very compelling. Over the next 20 years an awful lot was added to the Star Trek universe and some of it leads to some pretty interesting questions when considering the already established Star Trek universe of the past.
the story of V'ger was told and completed over 30 years ago, why go back to make some campy marvel-comic-book like connection? It's unoriginal and there are plenty of new stories to be told.
Because it can be fun and imaginative to try to connect the past with future additions. And the beauty of it is nobody is right or wrong. Whatever you think the connection between V'Ger and the Borg is is correct. If you think the Borg are V'Ger's babies and descendents you are just as correct as someone who thinks there's no connection at all.
That's why I think Sha Ka Ree is a criminal Cytherian imprisoned on a barren world in the center of the galaxy, not because it's said so in TMP or even implied in The Nth Degree but because I like to make that connection.
To me there are too many similarities for them to not be related in some way but anyone who thinks different is just as correct as I am.
And I don't like to think V'Ger's story was completed. I actually think it's story will be a lot more interesting now that's merged with a human. It will have the capacity for empathy, morality, love, hate, all the qualities that humans possess. But that's my imagination at work.
i hear you, and an interesting connection with sha ka ree, i could see that. believe me i've done the imagination myself (my theory was v'ger failed at its attempt to assimilate love/humanity and in turn fostered hate. but still believing in the benefits of assimilating biological "technology" if you will the borg was some how born with Ilia as the hive queen. i always felt the borg represented the worst possible outcome and a mirror for humanity). But sometimes stories are best left to the imagination than being seen, somehow they more than often fall short when trying to go back and make connections. that's how sto got itself into this iconian mess. way too many connections.
as for the similarities its star trek. before there was v'ger there was the changeling. i think the first few episodes of Voyager had the same exact story line dealing with temporal mechanics. the numerous remakes of old TOS shows in the first season of TNG (the strange illness that made everyone drunk-like, the federation science colony that's rapidly aging, the horta remake replaced with tiny balls of light). V'ger and the Borg basically came from the same minds or collective minds so yeah there is a connection.
i prefer new stories not old ones. or at least old stories told in new ways.
EDIT: and for the record when TMP came out there was a lot of contradiction and i believe some of it was cleaned up in the remaster, like the ridiculous size of v'ger which would have destroyed our solar system by its mere presence due the gravity it would have generated. there was a ton of flimsical explanations in that movie.
Just to throw another tidbit of info in here, At the beginning of TMP, V'ger was in Klingon space, if it had come from the Delta quadrant why would it be entering Federation space from the opposite direction? :-)
Just to throw another tidbit of info in here, At the beginning of TMP, V'ger was in Klingon space, if it had come from the Delta quadrant why would it be entering Federation space from the opposite direction? :-)
I always took it as V'gers return trajectory after exploring the universe.
So the speculation holds true for both possibilities. Either V'ger exited the wormhole within the Delta Quadrant, was rebuilt and sent off explore the universe, and returned after filling it's memory with knowledge. Or V'ger ended up on the far side of the universe and returned home, along with knowledge it gained along the way.
But, one thing's for sure, given that course it didn't come from the Andromeda Galaxy.
However, I found something interesting when drawing a Galactic map for an exploration proposal a few years ago. Along V'gers path, there was a couple of Borg Transwarp Exit locations.
Just to throw another tidbit of info in here, At the beginning of TMP, V'ger was in Klingon space, if it had come from the Delta quadrant why would it be entering Federation space from the opposite direction? :-)
I always took it as V'gers return trajectory after exploring the universe.
So the speculation holds true for both possibilities. Either V'ger exited the wormhole within the Delta Quadrant, was rebuilt and sent off explore the universe, and returned after filling it's memory with knowledge. Or V'ger ended up on the far side of the universe and returned home, along with knowledge it gained along the way.
But, one thing's for sure, given that course it didn't come from the Andromeda Galaxy.
However, I found something interesting when drawing a Galactic map for an exploration proposal a few years ago. Along V'gers path, there was a couple of Borg Transwarp Exit locations.
Always found that interesting the Borg would be in that area of space that V'ger passed through.
Here's a better explanation - no one thought about those things when TMP was written. And it showed. Which is sad really, I want that to be my favorite Trek film but there is always a little something that gets in the way.
Here's a better explanation - no one thought about those things when TMP was written. And it showed. Which is sad really, I want that to be my favorite Trek film but there is always a little something that gets in the way.
And that's why it's better for V'ger to remain one of those things in Star Trek that's never explained.
Purposely leaving it a mystery just sounds lazy to me. Why bother to use your imagination and solve a mystery when you can just forget about it? A super advanced machine race created an incredibly powerful sentient starship. Should we seek out this new life and new civilization? Nah, why would we do that in Star Trek?
Mysteries are most fun when you try to solve them and V'Ger's origin is one that deserves to be solved.
the story of V'ger was told and completed over 30 years ago, why go back to make some campy marvel-comic-book like connection? It's unoriginal and there are plenty of new stories to be told.
quite agree, retelling old content never goes well, you only have to take a look at Star Trek Into Darkness to see that, they took what could have been a fine offering and spoiled it by including khan and the reverse kirk/spock death scene featured.
give us new untold story's featuring new life and new civilizations, that's what we want to see.
When I think about everything we've been through together,
maybe it's not the destination that matters, maybe it's the journey,
and if that journey takes a little longer,
so we can do something we all believe in,
I can't think of any place I'd rather be or any people I'd rather be with.
Well, we know that the Borg have only been around for less than a thousand years, before in the Vaadwaur's time, 800-years ago, they had only assimilated a handful of systems...Guinan however said that their technology have been evolving for thousands of centuries. Now, either we're dealing with time travel, or they existed as machines first. Maybe it was like The Terminator and machines took over a civilisation that created them and they just continued to evolve, they sent V'Ger off, who then came back as a cyborg. V'Ger's influence could have transformed all of the machines...or I always thought that maybe V'Ger was along, got lonely and at first asked people to join it...but then when people started to refuse, took them by force.
V'Ger originating from our Galaxy just doesn't add up, IMO. V'Ger amassed so much knowledge during its journey that it gained sentience. There is only so much info you can learn going from the Delta Quadrant to the Alpha Quadrant and I doubt it was enough to make V'Ger what it was. The USS Voyager traveled across the Delta Quadrant and it didn't come home a sentient organism. If V'Ger spent centuries traveling between galaxies and cataloging trillions of planets and species, that would make more sense.
if V'ger was going warp 9.9 and it took over 200 hundred years to get to earth so V'ger crossed about 200,000 light years and the Small Magellanic Cloud is 199,000 light years away so V'ger could have been found there
the story of V'ger was told and completed over 30 years ago, why go back to make some campy marvel-comic-book like connection? It's unoriginal and there are plenty of new stories to be told.
I'm all for a new space monster. Something akin to the Crystalline Entity, but different. Giant Space Kraken! Eeegaaaads! Massive, tentacled, gaping-mawed, deadly plasma-spewing...thing from the far reaches of...someplace...in space!
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I always took that line to mean V'ger left the Galaxy to find the creator. Else it negates the line about V'ger coming out on the far side of the Galaxy.
But to me, a possible origin of both Borg and V'ger would be like this:
V'ger exits the wormhole and enters orbit of a Pre-Warp Society and is recovered for examination. Detecting radiation from Voyager's Radioscopic Power System, they used RoboTelepresence technology to analyze and study the probe from a safe location. (V'ger inteprets these devices as machine life - remember V'ger had a mentality of a child). The scientists repaired the probe and studied its transmissions and the binary code programming, then came to realize it was a simple scientific probe gathering measurements and relaying the info back to it's source.
Meanwhile, this society was in a middle of a new nanotechnology fad and had been using it for a few years, which was intended as a health benefit in repairing damaged cells, prolonging youth. It was so much of a fad that a small minority of personel in the lab used it. So one night they were attempting to access V'gers computer directry with thier computers, they didn't ground it correctly and it caused a short, damaging the nanobots of those scientists.
The wounded scientists were rushed to the hospital, and it was discovered some nanotech had fused with their nervous system. And the binary code from the probe was embedded within the core program. They effectively became robots. Seeing an opportunity, the military took over and started testing and quickly learned that the modified nanobots spread and could infect others with direct contact. They had a new biological weapon that could be used on hostile nations.
In time, they used it on their enemies with programing that instructed them to attack others and infect them. But when they reached a certain number, their behavior changed as they acted as one. Eventually the military was called in and their electronic weapons and defenses became useless when charged. And few of the officers still carred firearms, which didn't seem too effective due to sheer numbers. In time they were over ran and the some of their soliders were added to their collective. A new world wide epidemic started.
Back in the base with V'ger, the scientists were constructing a rocket to launch the probe back into space to use for testing, but it was quickly abandoned as the epidemic reached their area and they themselves started to become infected. Those scientists that were still at the probe mentally still wanted to launch back into space, this became a new directive to return the probe back to it's creator. These drones finished the rocket and improved on it with new technology such as a primiate artificial intelligence and nantotechnology clusters that allowed the probe to collect materials and repair damage. Within a year the rocket was much larger than it was originally intended and it was launched on a returning trajectory, not realizing it was sending it into intergalatic space.
Over time these primative systems expanded and eventually became V'ger. But on that unfortunate planet, they became the Borg. The planet's population was completely assimilated within five years, but they reached a plateau and could no longer advace, just survive. Until hundreds of years later when alien explorers reached their world and they themselves got infected and their technology added. And the Borg Collective began their expansion into space and continue with their directives.
To me that fit in with Trek since it had more or less a moral tale about messing with technology and it's consequenses. Though fits more like a Trek Horror story, where everyone was "lost". :P
How does V'Ger coming from outside the Galaxy negate the line about it coming from the far side of the Galaxy? There is no specific "entrance" to our Galaxy. V'Ger could have entered from anywhere which means that if he came from the far side of the Galaxy, that would mean he entered the Galaxy from that side.
You said:
What V'ger couldn't start it's journey from our Galaxy and then fly outward into Intergalactic space?
What I'm saying is: V'Ger came from another Galaxy, (Voyager 6 was most likely transported there by whatever the so called "Black Hole" was), and when it finally returned to our Galaxy it arrived in the region we call the Delta Quadrant. Once in the Delta Quadrant it proceeded to make it's way towards the Alpha Quadrant. This allows the two lines about cataloging galaxies and coming from the far side of our Galaxy to coexist.
By now their technology would be so advanced however they may look as if they have ascended to a higher plane of existence to us. I mean back when the Enterprise made contact the technology was already capable of constructing machines out of energy. Kind of like an Iconian...
But the line was "the other side of the Galaxy" not "the other side of the Universe".
Speculation. They don't know for sure where V'Ger came from. Technically speaking Spock's description of V'Ger's journey is also speculative, since he says this could be a record of V'Ger's entire journey. However the fact that V'Ger had cataloged and stored information on entire galaxies would imply he did travel to those places. The amount of knowledge it amassed would need to have come from traveling more than 70,000 light-years.
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This, basically. We don_t have to destroy every story we had in star Trek with crappy retcons that don't make sense.
V'Ger contradicts the Borg's depiction. Rodenberry "hinted" at it because he had nothing to do with the creation of the Borg and didn't really care and everything we know about V'Ger and Borg doesn't mix. The Fan-theory from some game including black holes and timetravel is, well... everything that involves black holes and timetravel to retcon something is bound to fail.
Linking V'Ger and the Borg is horrendously superficial as the assumption is basically "they look techy, they must be the same!". It's like linking Gorn and Voth because they're both reptiles and as such, of course, have to be exactly the same...
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All one has to do is follow the gaping path of Nothing V'GER left in it's wake.
Absorbing whole star systems and eventually galaxies, would certainly leave behind an obvious trail as the sudden loss of those gravity wells, would be seen in the deformation of space along said path.
Other systems and galaxies would suddenly move in abnormal manners to fill in the gaps.
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My take:
The Borg located a new interesting planet and send a cube for assimilation. BUt when they arrive, the star system is gone - instead, they find V'Ger. Intrigued, the Borg send their usual "Don't shoot us, we just want to assimilate you" message, and get promptly digitized. The Collective's interest is piqued, so they send more ships, and lose a bunch of them, each time gathering more and more data about the ship. Eventually, V'Ger realizes that it doesn't matter how many Borg she digitizes, she isn't getting any more information out of it (since the Borg are a collective), so she flies away bored. The Borg learned enough about V'Ger that they could replicate some of the tech, and created the B'Gers.
Because it can be fun and imaginative to try to connect the past with future additions. And the beauty of it is nobody is right or wrong. Whatever you think the connection between V'Ger and the Borg is is correct. If you think the Borg are V'Ger's babies and descendents you are just as correct as someone who thinks there's no connection at all.
That's why I think Sha Ka Ree is a criminal Cytherian imprisoned on a barren world in the center of the galaxy, not because it's said so in TMP or even implied in The Nth Degree but because I like to make that connection.
To me there are too many similarities for them to not be related in some way but anyone who thinks different is just as correct as I am.
And I don't like to think V'Ger's story was completed. I actually think it's story will be a lot more interesting now that's merged with a human. It will have the capacity for empathy, morality, love, hate, all the qualities that humans possess. But that's my imagination at work.
Hmm, I actually like this explaination and does seem to make sense. And Sha'ka'ree was as close to the Galactic Center as the Cytherian homeworld, except on the opposite side of the Galactic Core. Though how would the Cytherians get there since all their space travel was by those probes???
But your speculating the speculation.
There's no dialogue that contradicts nor correct's Kirk's comment about it appearing on the other side of the Galaxy. Because your argument is no different than someone saying "no way V'ger recorded entire galaxies. So therefore V'ger never left the galaxy". That's why we have to take the dialogue at face value, unless there is an official comment or literature that says otherwise.
How exactly is Kirk coming to this conclusion though? Decker says Voyager 6 encountered an anomaly and Kirk assumed it must have appeared on the other side of the Galaxy. Where is his evidence to support the claim?
Of course you wouldn't assume V'Ger left the Galaxy if there was no indication that it did. But there is information about other galaxies stored within' V'Ger and it would be logical to assume it had recorded that information first hand. I mean, I wouldn't say I cataloged entire Egyptian Pyramids without ever leaving Michigan. Why say V'Ger cataloged entire galaxies without ever leaving the Milky Way?
I already said both were speculative but Kirk based his speculation on nothing and Spock based his speculation on what he saw in V'Ger's database. I'd feel safer about Spock's guesses than most other people's facts.
Then I'll have to concede the point. But if it's ever decided there is a Borg Connection, then Kirk's statement would then be indeed fact. Since the Borg Homeworld is essentially on the far side of the galaxy.
And Vice Versa, you cannot disprove that that it did not. What we learn is minimal, hence why we have to take the information at face value, which is always the intention of storytellers.
Well yeah they didn't ask to be answered because they weren't very compelling. Over the next 20 years an awful lot was added to the Star Trek universe and some of it leads to some pretty interesting questions when considering the already established Star Trek universe of the past.
i hear you, and an interesting connection with sha ka ree, i could see that. believe me i've done the imagination myself (my theory was v'ger failed at its attempt to assimilate love/humanity and in turn fostered hate. but still believing in the benefits of assimilating biological "technology" if you will the borg was some how born with Ilia as the hive queen. i always felt the borg represented the worst possible outcome and a mirror for humanity). But sometimes stories are best left to the imagination than being seen, somehow they more than often fall short when trying to go back and make connections. that's how sto got itself into this iconian mess. way too many connections.
as for the similarities its star trek. before there was v'ger there was the changeling. i think the first few episodes of Voyager had the same exact story line dealing with temporal mechanics. the numerous remakes of old TOS shows in the first season of TNG (the strange illness that made everyone drunk-like, the federation science colony that's rapidly aging, the horta remake replaced with tiny balls of light). V'ger and the Borg basically came from the same minds or collective minds so yeah there is a connection.
i prefer new stories not old ones. or at least old stories told in new ways.
EDIT: and for the record when TMP came out there was a lot of contradiction and i believe some of it was cleaned up in the remaster, like the ridiculous size of v'ger which would have destroyed our solar system by its mere presence due the gravity it would have generated. there was a ton of flimsical explanations in that movie.
I always took it as V'gers return trajectory after exploring the universe.
So the speculation holds true for both possibilities. Either V'ger exited the wormhole within the Delta Quadrant, was rebuilt and sent off explore the universe, and returned after filling it's memory with knowledge. Or V'ger ended up on the far side of the universe and returned home, along with knowledge it gained along the way.
But, one thing's for sure, given that course it didn't come from the Andromeda Galaxy.
However, I found something interesting when drawing a Galactic map for an exploration proposal a few years ago. Along V'gers path, there was a couple of Borg Transwarp Exit locations.
http://ma-test.wikia.com/wiki/Borg_transwarp_network
Always found that interesting the Borg would be in that area of space that V'ger passed through.
Here's a better explanation - no one thought about those things when TMP was written. And it showed. Which is sad really, I want that to be my favorite Trek film but there is always a little something that gets in the way.
And that's why it's better for V'ger to remain one of those things in Star Trek that's never explained.
Mysteries are most fun when you try to solve them and V'Ger's origin is one that deserves to be solved.
quite agree, retelling old content never goes well, you only have to take a look at Star Trek Into Darkness to see that, they took what could have been a fine offering and spoiled it by including khan and the reverse kirk/spock death scene featured.
give us new untold story's featuring new life and new civilizations, that's what we want to see.
When I think about everything we've been through together,
maybe it's not the destination that matters, maybe it's the journey,
and if that journey takes a little longer,
so we can do something we all believe in,
I can't think of any place I'd rather be or any people I'd rather be with.
if V'ger was going warp 9.9 and it took over 200 hundred years to get to earth so V'ger crossed about 200,000 light years and the Small Magellanic Cloud is 199,000 light years away so V'ger could have been found there
^This