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The major problem with the T5 to T6 Re-releases...
dark4blood
Member Posts: 1,192 Arc User
Is that Cryptic isn't really making anything new. They are not really designing new ships just skins for current ships and charging full price. If these "upgrades" were like 500 zen instead of 3000-5000 people wouldn't complain as much, but these ships really aren't unique as the originals when they were first released. Now if you created some new ships, like Feresan Attack escort, or brought our the Typhoon, and Tahoe class with these re-releases, people might not complain as much. Cryptic is taking the easy way out, and unless it is a lockbox ship they are not putting any design efforts into the new T6 ships.
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Say they release a new ship. Well and good, its got new stats, new toys, and a new skin. But, it has no other customization options. Its a new, unique ship. Now say they release a "revamped" ship. Its got the same new stats, toys, and a new skin, but it can also use existing ship parts.
Now some revamps are better than others (Excelsior was pretty pokey) but revamping a ship is providing an additional bonus beyond the standard c-store release. Its giving you more hull/skin/console options. It doesn't feel as good as a brand new ship (after all, its the "same" ship) but you can certainly do more with it despite one's natural reservations (just silence the annoying thinking part of your brain and go with it).
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The problem is that none of that is free, or even necessarily cheap, for Cryptic. Even minor tweaks to performance have to be tested to look for unforeseen imbalances, and this work increases exponentially with the addition of new universal consoles. At the same time, the art crew (or whoever actually models the ships) can't literally just throw a fresh filter on the old models; that work basically has to be from scratch. All of that in-house testing and art work has to be done--at the usual cost--before the ship hits Tribble. Then someone has to collect and analyze player-generated test data, which they will not do if they're not also collecting a paycheck. The end result is a ship that kind-of-sort-of skipped the 'develop a concept' step, but required just as much in all the other steps for Cryptic to develop. So they charge us for it, and we pay a bit of a premium for nostalgia's sake. Given the way people have clamored for this sort of thing (recall what these fora looked like before the T6 Iconics were announced), Cryptic's really just selling players what they want to buy.
Some I say someone wants a different look, at times the layout is better.
Lastly, they need to make $ somehow. And ships is always a good $ maker for them. To keep the game going.
USS Casinghead NCC 92047 launched 2350
Fleet Admiral Stowe - Dominion War Vet.
Tier 5
Tier 5U
Tier 6
I leave this here.
http://www.arcgames.com/en/games/star-trek-online/news/detail/7002133
"As mentioned above, upgraded Tier 5 ships (or T5-U ships) will offer many of the same benefits provided by Tier 6 starships minus a few bells and whistles.
T5-U ships will feature a sizeable number of additional hit points that will increase as your captain levels up, an additional console slot, and four Starship Mastery levels."
Are people aware of the differences between T5, T5U, T6? Or maybe it should be said differently to get the point across. Think of T5U as "T5.5"
That's not the case though with the T5-T6 since some revamps can be nearly as distinct from the original as some new ships. You get nearly as much bang for your T6 neg'var for example as a T6 KDF intel cruiser, so the need to discount is very small in objective terms. There's still that feeling of it being "an upgrade" in the sense of a fleet ship but such would be the case with any comparable T6 Ship. It's not exactly pleasant to buy a ship again, but cryptic doesn't need to act on that feeling in order for certain parts of the c-store to remain valid. And you do get ship part interchangeablity as compensation.
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I... wouldn't go suggesting that all the money is going into QA because, well, Cryptic's QA...
Last I checked it was one guy doing ship work. Maybe they've expanded since then, but... that was what it was.
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I honestly think that these ships are often a better deal than completely new releases. One of the things I really dislike about lockbox ships, for example, is the lack of customization options. I want my ship to at least theoretically stand out as unique.
And of course- making the parts interchangeable is obviously also a lot more work than just providing a single model. It might also require some unfortunate compromises, of course, and it doesn't allow something completely new. But it allows variety, and I appreciate that a lot.
I bought the Thunderchild. Not knowing that you flew through the levels. No problem, I like the skin, I like the console and I leveled a few alts. It is Zen well spend. I bought the Armitrage to have an escort carrier for endgame. Again, Zen well spend. Am I going to spend 3000 Zen on an upgrade for the Armitrage, while I already did spend 500 on it? No. I am not saying it is a rip off. Perhaps there is more to say for the fact it isn't, but it does feel like a rip off. There is a lot of emotion in doing bussiness, eh.
If you've bought previous versions it can quickly go over 10000 Zen for a single ship.
I'm holding off on buying any ships until they've released a large chunk of t6 remakes. Even then I'm only really after the sovereign class. Or an Orion ship for my kdf toon.
The way I see it is that whenever they release a ship is to ask - is the new model worth it, how well does it work with existing customization options and the like.
The stats? They are very cheap to make. Cryptic could take a gray box and give it 5 front weapon slots, 3 aft, and 3 Commander Universal Slots and 10 consoles of any kind and it be uber and all -but it would look like a gray box.
Making a decent ship model requires a decent artist and requires a lot of time and effort. That's what is justifying the price. Not the stats. If people buy ships only for stats, they invite Cryptic to be dishonest and just slap new stats on something they already have.
You can still say that 3,000 Zen or whatever is too much for a ship costume. That's okay. Space Ships in STO are luxury items, both in terms of the game itself as your own life. Luxury item prices are always based on subjective criteria, not on performance or something like that.
I mean, the new ships only feature little more than the previous upgrade from Ships to fleetships, at least a BO-Slot and a possible Intel-Seating isnt really worth that much more money (its fine they charge something, but basically buying it anew isnt worth it). And not to mention, the previous upgrade even featured an importance to fleets.
And as for the Icing of the cake: I like the threads complaining about this very obvious ripoff.
Funny.
I distinctly remember calls to lift all the t5 ships up to t6, so all ships basically level out at a new solid baseline.
And low and behold take the Galaxy for Example:
TRIBBLE ship turned decent.
Excelsior went from still good to still good but with the new stat baseline.
etc etc.
As for work: did you SEE the new galaxy model they made? They delivered excellent quality there and the andromeda parts do not look shabby either.
The Neghvar finally has its good looks.
The Arbiter turned a weird, malformed thing into something i'd actually fly if i were into gunboats like that.
Fact is: we asked for uplifting of our old ships, primarily because we want to fly our iconic vessels and not something "new".
And thee have been releases for the "new" crowd. Command cruisers, pilot ships, intel ships....
I am looking forward to a t6 nebula, a t6 Vulcan ship. Andorian. Vesta. Scimitar (lol).
I am also looking forward to see whatever they come up with to introduce their new temporal specline.
And lastly: do yo ubuy ships every week? I do not. Its month between ship purchases for me and divided by moths the cost for a ship turn into the question:
Do i really need this trip to the fast food joint?
Keep the t6 refurbishes coming.
Cost of T5 + Cost of T6
How Cryptic sees a T6 retrofit:
Cost of T6
How players would see a discount for owning the T5:
Cost of T5 + Cost of T6 - Discount
How Cryptic would see a discount for owning the T5:
Cost of T6 - Discount
If the money was spent in a previous quarter as far as Cryptic's metrics are concerned it doesn't exist.
Actually they didnt need an upgrade. Old things should be keep old, and new things new. The great star trek experience was destroyed in the moment they started to make "new" versions of old ships. Starfleet will never do that, they will build just new ships instead of trying to refit over and over again the old ones. Its even stupid if you think on it. But since in tis game the star trek thing was lost time ago (players dont care anymore about star trek) i guess it doesnt matter at all. Players will keep dreaming for new shinys about old shinys over and over again, and cryptic knows it lol.
Have a nice time in our game,
Geko
I think it's the ship design and looks. They need to create a 3D model for it. A model that is textured, can take all the materials and patterns and colors, and probably be compatible with all parts of already existing variants.
The cost of a Tier 6 ship to Cryptic is probably either:
I would not be surprised at all if making a new Tier 6 lockbox/lobi/promo ship that has no interchangeable parts is actually the cheapest to make for them. (While they are ironically the most expensive to players.)
The cost and the earnings they made the last quarter or the last year for as ship model is, from a business point of view, indeed completely irrelevant, since the new ship cost is in no way cheaper to make for it, but in fact, it might be more expensive. The only hope is that a ship that sold well the last time might mean that a new variant of it will sell well, too.
Actually its both historical and canon that ships get upgrades and refits, and that old designs get upgraded for new ships.
Let's say Cryptic releases a T6 Andorian Kumari Escort for $30 with a $25 discount if you have the T5.
If you have the T5, you've already paid $25. The T6 costs you $5 on top of the $25 you paid previously.
However, since the T5 was likely paid for in a previous quarter, what Cryptic sees is $5.
Now let's take away the discount.
If you have the T5, you've already paid $25. The T6 costs you $30 on top of the $25 you paid previously with the cost of the upgrade module if you brought it up to T5U on top of that as well.
This time Cryptic sees $30.
Did you have to have the T5 to buy the T6? No. Is there any use to the strictly inferior T5? No. Does it feel like paying $30 to keep using the ship you like? Yes. Does Cryptic get more money? Yes.
Having a discount would be leaving money on the table for Cryptic.
It works like that for most of the Tier 6 Retrofits, I think.
And Cryptic is offering discounts on these ships, at least htey have in the the past. The 3-Packs for example cost only the price of 2 ships. It doesn't require you to have the Tier 5 ship, but I don't think it's relevant to the buyer why he got the discount - only that he got the discount.
I don't even have a major problem with the fact that they put in T5-U as a stopgap.
What I have a huge problem with is the fact that they charged for T5-U upgrades knowing that they were going to be releasing all of these T6 ships. But I didn't pay for any upgrades, so I'm not really burned. Most of us suspected they were going to do this very thing, had our suspicions confirmed when the Pathfinder came out, and they have.
That's not entirely true. The original Enterprise went through a refit as did the Lakota. Also there was two versions of the Ambassador class seen on-screen. The Enterprise C as seen in yesterday's enterprise and the yamaguchi variant. To claim starlet Starfleet didn't upgrade their ship's is rather shortsighted.
A small example is the simple Miranda-class. Compare to how her Phasers fire in Wrath of Khan with the Mirandas shown in the much later Dominion War in DS9. In TWOK, Reliant and Enterprise's Phasers fire in a red, pulse-like manner. In DS9 with the Dominion War, Mirandas are fitted with the standard Phasers of the day. You see them fire the typical orange Phasers in a beam instead of the old pulses.
Even in real life, warships can serve a very long time. For instance, the US Fletcher-class Destroyer was made for WWII. But the last Fletcher in service anywhere was decommissioned in 2001. In Mexico.
The USS Midway, a carrier made for WWII but missed entering service in time to participate went on to serve from 1945 until 1992. Her last bit of combat service was Desert Shield/Desert Storm.
"Nuclear Wessel" USS Enterprise, CVN-65 served from 1965 until 2012, serving alongside her newer replacements of the Nimitz-class.
The Iowa-class Battleships served during WWII and the last would be decommissioned in 1992 after Desert Shield/Desert Storm. They got their upgrades and they slapped on some modern equipment, air defenses, and the ability to launch cruise missiles.
Equipment gets changed. I'm sure there's limitations due to the original construction with how much you can upgrade at an affordable cost. But eventually there is a time that you can use that same tired frame before she falls apart. Just like Picard commented on his old Stargazer.
Maybe you don't want that model, but you'll still get it. And that model is a major part of what you're paying for.
And just because it'S "derivative" of the Galaxy model doesn't mean it's cheaper to make. It'S actually likely that it's more expensive to make, since you have to find a model that works a whole and still can have interchangeable parts that work for previous models.
What you are buying is a big customization option. One of the coolest things about Cryptic games has always been their customization options. And that they brought it to Starships is awesome.
I would be inf avour of discounts for "legacy" ships that share a synnergy with each other. As in (example): Exploration Cruiser T4 refit, T5 retrofit, T6 (fleet and upgrade tokens fall out of the equation I guess, but could be included later). So, the T6 Exploration Cruiser is 30 currencies/3000zen. Now, each legacy ship bought before could give you a small discount ON TOP of ship sale discounts that may arise. Like maybe 100 zen for a 1000 zen ship, 150 for a 1500 zen ship, 200 for a 2000 zen and 250 for a 2500 zen. Optionally a flat 50-100 zen for the upgrade token (as it is account wide). So the T6 would be 2500 if you own the legacy before and if there's a sale you pay 2000 - it still is expensive, I will never change that position, but it would be a nice gesture.
Ships that have only one "legacy" model would "save" less, that's true. For example, T6 Dreadnaught Cruiser 3000zen, T5 is 2500zen so the T6 would be 2750, maybe 2650 with the token. If there is a first week discount to 2500 though it'd cost 2150 zen - I think that could work.
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Lol. so wrong. There is no "new" akiras in star trek, or galaxys, or excelsiors, or any other ship. So, think again. One thing is a variant, that has nothing to do with the ship itself. Of course in star trek we have thousands of variants of every ship, but that has nothing to do with a refit of older ships.