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Goodbye Kestrel!
thegrandnagus1
Member Posts: 5,166 Arc User
Whoops, there is already a thread in the announcements section:
http://www.arcgames.com/en/forums#/discussion/1197052/its-been-a-long-road-getting-from-here-to-there
Moderator please delete.
http://www.arcgames.com/en/forums#/discussion/1197052/its-been-a-long-road-getting-from-here-to-there
Moderator please delete.
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"He shall be my finest warrior, this generic man who was forced upon me.
Like a badass I shall make him look, and in the furnace of war I shall forge him.
he shall be of iron will and steely sinew.
In great armour I shall clad him and with the mightiest weapons he shall be armed.
He will be untouched by plague or disease; no sickness shall blight him.
He shall have such tactics, strategies and machines that no foe will best him in battle.
He is my answer to cryptic logic, he is the Defender of my Romulan Crew.
He is Tovan Khev... and he shall know no fear."
Agreed in general, not neccesarily about the Iconian Missions though. I've enjoyed those for the most part, it's her other work that I find lacking. Not horrible just sub-par considering the source material.
Point of clarification: even if Geko provided "main ideas" or plot points, Kestrel is still the one who writes the actual dialog, which is what makes those ideas sound good, or not. And to be clear, I'm not taking a side on whether the story/dialog was good, just making the point clear.
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
And that right there could make someone leave of their own volition: too much pride to accept any more commissions for what one knows to be subpar work, and not enough creative control to save it from being subpar.
Christian Gaming Community Fleets--Faith, Fun, and Fellowship! See the website and PM for more. :-)
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Well yes, along with everything else
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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Tovan Kev?
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
I second this.
I guess very few people would complain if he would leave.
I guess not few people would even like to play Robespierre with him. But I would settle for him leaving.
Christian Gaming Community Fleets--Faith, Fun, and Fellowship! See the website and PM for more. :-)
Proudly F2P. Signature image by gulberat. Avatar image by balsavor.deviantart.com.
> Kestrel wrote the Legacy of Romulus story arc. She did plenty of good for the game and I for one would prefer her working on it than some unknown who may be less competent.
Yes and the LoR storyline including the characters and dialog were a travesty. Tovan was awful. Hakeev *the most generic, and laughably poorly written villian in STO history need I go on?
She ignored canon and what we know of the Romulan people, civilian, military or otherwise. We didn't get Romulans in any way. We got humans with pointy ears and bad hair cuts. Or "space fairing Bajorans" as the infamous "I hate you Cryptic" thread was titled that went on for many weeks if not months after LoR launched pointing out that fact.
Kestrel lacked creativity and imagination and how no qualms about ignoring established canon from the shows. It's like she never read the memory alpha page on Romulans and had no clue how to expand upon it.
USS Casinghead NCC 92047 launched 2350
Fleet Admiral Stowe - Dominion War Vet.
Yeah, we did get Romulans. What we did not get was the travesty which was the TNG fascist police state. Instead we got something more like the Romulans of TOS, the original presentation of "Romulan" (the honorable but often savage warrior culture which was the original Trek culture of that type before that was stolen from the Romulans and given to the Klingons, the "we're not so different after all" Romulans, who "in another universe ... could have called [Kirk] friend" and who extended amnesty to the crew of the Enterprise even when the ship had violated the Neutral Zone -- an act which most, but not all, TNG Romulans and the Romulans of LUG would have viewed as "un-Romulan," because "no quarter" and other such nonsense, which was a vast insult to the original ideal as presented in TOS, the original ideal which made Romulans the most interesting species in the galaxy) and the development of that by people like Diane Duane which was begun before TNG came out. Your TNG fascist police state is something you can treasure in your heart if you like, but it was an affront to Romulan fans from before TNG, and all these claims that STO Romulans are somehow inconsistent with canon are claims based on ignorance and bias.
You want to know what Romulans are? Do you want an honest presentation? One which accounts for both the TOS and the TNG Romulans? Here:
http://tal-diann.blogspot.com/p/arhfvahir-mnean-what-are-we.html
Geko?
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
Which apparently Geko was trying to do already based on the comment above. Which would certainly explain departing to seek greener pastures before allowing one's own resume to be contaminated by association with the decisions Geko has put into play.
Christian Gaming Community Fleets--Faith, Fun, and Fellowship! See the website and PM for more. :-)
Proudly F2P. Signature image by gulberat. Avatar image by balsavor.deviantart.com.
> buttstallion39 wrote: »
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> Yeah, we did get Romulans. What we did not get was the travesty which was the TNG fascist police state. Instead we got something more like the Romulans of TOS, the original presentation of "Romulan" (the honorable but often savage warrior culture which was the original Trek culture of that type before that was stolen from the Romulans and given to the Klingons, the "we're not so different after all" Romulans, who "in another universe ... could have called [Kirk] friend" and who extended amnesty to the crew of the Enterprise even when the ship had violated the Neutral Zone -- an act which most, but not all, TNG Romulans and the Romulans of LUG would have viewed as "un-Romulan," because "no quarter" and other such nonsense, which was a vast insult to the original ideal as presented in TOS, the original ideal which made Romulans the most interesting species in the galaxy) and the development of that by people like Diane Duane which was begun before TNG came out. Your TNG fascist police state is something you can treasure in your heart if you like, but it was an affront to Romulan fans from before TNG, and all these claims that STO Romulans are somehow inconsistent with canon are claims based on ignorance and bias.
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> You want to know what Romulans are? Do you want an honest presentation? One which accounts for both the TOS and the TNG Romulans? Here: "garbage"
So you only like TOS Roms and anyone who likes the Roms portrayed in every series after is ignorant and biased. Which makes you informed and objective. Proof you've provided to back up your argument is a crappy homemade Romulan fanboy fleet page. Got it. Thanks. lol
> Wow, so much hate for the Romulan story arc. Nevermind that it's still considered the best release STO ever had. Nevermind that it turned the Romulans from a planet of hats race where all of them were sneaky jerkasses into a fleshed out people with personalities of their own.
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> You're upset because Hakeev was written as a typical TNG series Romulan like Tomalak, but you want all Romulans to be like their series counterparts? Are you joking or just dense?
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> Tovan Khev is not a bad character. There are only three reasons why any player hates Tovan:
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> 1. He's stuck as a lowly Romulan Operative.
> 2. He has the audacity to have a story arc of his own.
> 3. He can't be shitcanned because that would TRIBBLE up episode replay."
More ad-hominems *seem to be a essential part in any reply in this forum*. Great. The best release? It wasn't a release. It was an expansion. The first expansion in the history of the game which also introduced a much anticipated new faction. So of course it was popular. But for those of us who have a memory longer that a gnats, it was also heavily criticized for multiple reasons at the time of it's release and after.
Tomalak? God, you may have sipped on too much Romulan Ale friend because Hakeev was no Tomalak. lol. I wish that were the case. Even if only for the voice acting which was god awful. Whatever, I really don't care what you fanboys think about any of this. I'm just bored so I thought I'd reply. The point of my post was to say good riddance to Kestrel which I did.
You missed the point entirely. I accept the TNG Romulans, but I also see that the predominant perspective in TNG (note: predominant, not exclusive) was an innovation in the Trek universe, and therefore, I don't make outrageously untenable claims like "We didn't get Romulans, we got green Federation, we got Humans with pointy ears, Kestrel ignored the Romulans in the shows" and other such obviously ridiculous drivel. I also see that, with DS9, Romulans began to stop being portrayed so one-dimensionally as they were in TNG with but few exceptions. So, again, "every series after" doesn't quite scan.
That "crappy homemade Romulan fanboy fleet page" are actually "six pages of well-researched, well-founded Romulan history and cultural discussion in a Romulan fangirl's fleet site" (if a woman of my age can be considered a "girl"). If you knew more about Romulans than the dominant portrayal (but again, not the only portrayal) in TNG and Memory Alpha (and, fwiw, "ignorance" means "lack of knowledge," which often produces bias based on an incomplete picture), and had actually taken the time to read my work, you would know that. My sources are listed on the final page of my work, which I seriously doubt you took the time to read.
And yeah, you kids need to stop kidding yourself; Hhakhifv was very much a distillation of the fascist bully boy Romulans of TNG.
And we got a new insight about there personal honor, which makes them even give up family if it is needed in there sense of honor.
That made them very 3D for me. As in every community, there are different shades. Though it is unfortunately we only got to play the rebels. Some police state would have been a different experience.
But yeah, Hakeev on the other hand was very 1D and an insult to the romulans per se. Though I guess every omnicidal maniac tends to become this.
You must have ignored the "with few exceptions" bit in that sentence, and also the two times I referred to "predominant, not exclusive" and "the dominant portrayal (but again, not the only portrayal)" ... And as for "honor," the TOS Romulans were the original "honorable warriors" in Trek, before that ideal got stolen from them and given to the Klingons, who in TOS were either Kossacks or cut-throat pirates (with the sole exception of "Day of the Dove"). What you're describing as "personal honor" was the obedience and duty schtick emphasized in LUG, and was more about self-preservation than honor.
And I am quite pleased that we only get to play the rebels; the fascist police state was an insult to us older Romulan fans, and needed to be discarded.
Now, I don't like STOs writing for the most part. Interestingly enough, I liked it best in the early days - lately (the last two years or so) STOs writing is primarily build around recognition. I feel we have a forced "name dropping" at every corner and forced inclusion of as many canon appeareances as possible, regardless of them making sense or helping the story at all - the Delta quadrant is the most "half arsed" compilation of singular appearances in the entire game. The Romulan Republic was, in my opinion, also just a weak attempt at introducing the cross-faction character choice into the game and I don't think it's very plausible at that.
But regarding the Romulan portrayal, both prominent opinions in this thread have a point: The portrayal of the Romulan civil society especially in "Unification" resembles a comically overxaggerated soviet police state more than anything. That was... unlucky. Just as unlucky as STOs early portrayal of the Romulans, before LoR, where the Tal Shiar was basically analogous to the Romulan Star Empire, there was no distinction. Canonically, though, aside from that very bland portrayal in Unification the TOS Romulans and TNG Romulans actually aren't all that different, they just wear different cloth and TOS Romulans had an, arguably, better taste in indoor decoration
But both instances had examples of complex characters as well as (in contrast needed) depiction of bland "soldiers" just wearing their hat. But the Romulan portrayal in "The Enterprise Incident" fits the TNG Romulans very well. The Romulan Commander uses trickery and subfertuge from the very first moment, trying to gain control of the Enterprise. Torture to death is a common practice, supremacist attitude is displayed (Spock, as a Romulan cousin, is a 'superior being') and wether or not the Enterprise crew would recieve "amnesty" for their violation of the neutral zone (which is not debateable mind you, the mission to acquire the cloaking device in such a stupid way is no different from the Romulans going berserk in "faces of the enemy") is highly questionable in the context of everything we see. Neither had Spock gotten a place in the Empire, they probably had interrogated and executed him just as well, even if the Commander actually did had genuine feelings for him (this was, btw, the first draft of the script, but it was changed later due to the actors' critique the characters would act out-of-character) she couldn't have justified that before her superiors. And TOS Romulans are, like TNG Romulans, loyal to their government before family, friends and personal ethics.
However, I actually recommend to read Protogoth's fleet's page for the lore. It is an interesting read with interesting insights, I enjoyed reading it
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It is largely based on a number of sources, and the Rihannsu saga (which is not a single novel, but several) is only one of them (which, honestly, contributed only a rather small amount of material to my discussion). What I did was take all of the information I could get and try to make it consistent (and, contrary to the criticism of one particular TNG RSE fan, I did not select the worst examples of the later RSE to "make it look as bad as possible," but could instead have made it look far worse had that been my goal, as there is plenty of material in soft canon which makes the TNG RSE look positively repulsive), with precedence given to hard canon. My goal was to provide the most complete discussion of Romulan history and culture ever produced, and to make it consistent (a concern which has seldom actuated writers of previous material).
For it to be "fan-fiction," it would have had to be primarily my own invention, but it was not, instead being a compilation of hard and soft canon material with very little of my own creation; officially licensed novels are not "fan-fiction," but "soft canon." But as I said, precedence was given to hard canon where possible (and without taking things out of context and running with them, like the single statement by Scotty "Their power is simple impulse," one interpretation of which is contradicted by several things even in the same episode, to say nothing of ENT and even the LUG material, which latter was written in part to uphold the new TNG view of the Trek universe).
Also, our fleet backstory is only found on the sixth (the last) page, which, apart from the introductory page, is the shortest of all the pages.
I did not include, and will not be adding, the Garidian stuff, because I never played that game and don't have sufficient information to include it. If you can supply me with literally every bit of text information from that game, I will consider it.
For a more thorough cultural discussion, there's a thread on our fleet forum site, which is still unfinished, but which discusses, among other things, the religions, sacred traditions, and philosophies found in Romulan and Reman society in great detail, and that is more my own work, but based on other sources (like LUG's "Way of D'era," several novels including Rihannsu saga and the Vulcan's ___ series, and what little we saw in hard canon). When I finish that, I'll be adding a link to the end of the "What Are We?" discussion.
For Star Trek only whats been on TV/Cinemar ist canon. Everything else, licensed or unlicensed Novels are not canon. They are not purely fanfiction, but they are not canon either. They are in between. Tjey can be talked when you have discussion about whats good or bad writing, but they are utterly misplaced if you talk about characters of Star Trek. Since then you have to talk canon, which doesnt include them.
Else one doesnt come around ST:Bridge commander, albeit a game, portraying the romulans what you call TOS-Way in a TNG/DS9-Premise. Which would be stupid again, since the timeline never happened in canon.
So from TOS, we got 2 sources of canon material for the romulans (3-4 if you count the episodes where their ships are seen, but are not portrayed). Thats it. We got an honorable captain hiding behind his cloak and bombed multiple (at least not purely military) targets out of the universe without remorse, and another captain trying to turn spock a traitor, but got conned from him. So much for the honorable warriors. There is no honor in war, that is a common misconception. War is always fought on a grey-to-black-morality. Honor is the wrong word for that.
Sigh all you want. Trekkers as a general rule do recognize things which weren't in the TV series and/or movies as "soft canon." And when you want background for Romulans, you have to go beyond "hard canon," because hard canon does not provide sufficient material to work with.
We also have TAS portraying the Romulans in a manner consistent with TOS.
As for "an honorable captain hiding behind his cloak and bombed multiple (at least not purely military) targets out of the universe without remorse," ...
As for "another captain trying to turn spock a traitor, but got conned from him," that Commander was trying to seduce and turn Spock, after the Enterprise violated the Romulan Neutral Zone on a mission of espionage (although she did not know that at the time). The result was the rebirth of Reunification a century later by Spock. Instead of the LUG "no quarter" nonsense, she granted amnesty to the crew, holding only the Captain responsible, until the ruse was exposed.
And as for "There is no honor in war, that is a common misconception. War is always fought on a grey-to-black-morality. Honor is the wrong word for that." ... The Romulans have not been at war with Earth or the United Federation of Planets since the ENT era. Rivalry is not war.