Die for what you believe in. If that means letting the Iconians slaughter you, then step on up to the chopping block.
If you aren't willing to die for what you believe in, then kindly shut your trap the next time an alien race does something morally ambiguous that offends your delicate sensibilities. You've already opted out of the moral high ground.
"The Other". The Iconians that survived and fled to Andromeda know someone saved them. They don't know who.
Why? 'cause they can't remember shifts in time.
I can easily see this story arc taking that path.
We build this morally ambiguous weapon, then Sela steals it and heads out to zap Iconia out of existence.
Suddenly we have to save the Iconians from Sela's vengeance.
We can keep our starfleet morals, be the heroes, be the "other" and set the timeline back on track upholding the principles of the temporal prime directive and all that good jazz.
You ever wonder if they open these "discuss forums", for the sole purpose of incorporating elements of our thoughts into the stories Cryptic writers tell now or in the future?
Now there's a temporal paradox.
"The Prime Directive is merely a guideline to help make the right choice" -Vn'dor Phail, Capt :: sneezes :: Why is it no-one dusts the bridge on Starfleet vessels?" -Emsil Marat, Glinn "We can not interfere in the progression of one's life" -Richard Lynch, LtCdr
Yeah I like that train of thought and it would explain the gateways in Andromeda... wonder if we'll go there some time.
They should add these Tales of the War blogs to the missions in the Iconian War story arc as stuff that people could read at various consoles, padds, etc.
I do like the insight they add to the war and they make me brainstorm over just ~~what happens neeeext?~~
But posting them on the website only --- they're only going to get burried under the newer posts as time passes and I believe they have a value worth preserving, as well as a place in-game.
"Ad astra audacter eamus in alis fidelium."
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"To boldly go to the stars on the wings of the faithful."
1. the Delta Quadrant Allies are busy fighting the Iconians and Vadwar in the Delta Quadrant, likely don't have many ships to spare.
2. Cardassia is not currently a Major military power, they forces are likely busy protect Cardassian space from the Iconians and the True Way forces.
3. The Tholians Empire exists in multiple realities and times, and I see no evidence of conflict between them and the Iconians.
4. The Ferengi are primarily a commercial power and even Ferengi Mercs are unlikely to take a suicidal job. Dead men spend no latinium.
5. The Borg maybe waiting to pick over the Iconians left overs or they may actually be a result of Iconian experimentation. They do talk alot about repairing the whole.
6. The Deferi and no where near being a major military power and whatever military they have is likely mostly focused on defending they're own people.
7. available ships for the attack on the sphere are likely to havs been a limited percentage of the fleet, as core worlds like the Gorn Home World, Earth, Qoronos, Ter'jas Mor, Betazed, Vulcan, Tellar, Andoria, Lethean, Trill Prime, New Romulus, ect... are under attack by fleets of Iconian ships.
You ever wonder if they open these "discuss forums", for the sole purpose of incorporating elements of our thoughts into the stories Cryptic writers tell now or in the future?
Now there's a temporal paradox.
They have before. Everything we say on the Cryptic forums becomes the intellectual property of Cryptic. Any changes to the game (including the story) as a result of forum feedback is theirs to own.
I am with the "Ally with the Undine" camp. They have plenty of reason to be just as angry as we are at being led to war by the Iconians. They got played--and so did we. Lives were lost on both sides, and if we could at least unite with the Undine on that common cause, it could potentially turn the tide. This is IMO the best option. The Undine, believe it or not, have actually demonstrated themselves to be capable of reason once their backs are against the wall, or once individual Undine are given the opportunity to think about their actions.
Another potential ally that I still find completely abhorrent--though more of a long shot because I don't know that they have a grievance against the Iconians--is the Devidians. We know the Devidians excel in temporophasic manipulation, and the Spectres series has IMO sufficiently established that their threats in "Time's Arrow" were not idle. If they can pull an entire sector out of temporophasic alignment, then their threat on Earth in that TNG episode probably wasn't empty. Imagine what would happen if they pulled the Iconia system out of alignment and wiped the minds of the Heralds and Iconians inside that sphere. Or if they set up a resonance that blew it up, like they threatened to do to Earth. The only thing is that...incentivizing them...is likely to be very, VERY ugly, and could involve trading in blood. We would essentially be using them as OUR version of the Solanae and Elachi, with all of the nastiness that entails. This option would be marginally better than the Krenim time weapon, IMO--but only marginally and with great potential of backfiring.
Another possibility is to attempt to beam the Iconians out of time and then put them back, as others have discussed--erase their minds by beaming them aboard the time ship to hopefully make them more amenable, but don't fire the main weapon.
The last, should we "HAVE" to fire the time weapon, is to eliminate J'mpok from the timeline. J'mpok is the idiot responsible for the destabilization of the quadrant that gave the Iconians a foothold. Instead of recognizing that he cannot just attack the Federation and use the infiltrators as a blatant excuse for territorial aggrandizement--AND recognizing that after the Klingon attack on Cardassia on false pretenses in 2372 they have zero credibility with the Federation in this area and therefore must build it nonviolently--he just went like a rabid targ after the Federation, who could have gotten to the bottom of what was happening with the Undine IF actually given the news by reasonable adults instead of people who were acting like war-hungry animals. The Federation could have gotten the Undine talking, and the Iconians would have to live in fear of facing a quadrant united all the way to fluidic space.
Another point I want to raise: the Delta Recruit plotline did not pay off at all. Nothing Cray did, or the Delta Recruit does, matters. Not. One. Bit. That was very poorly executed and we can see now just how much so.
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If I remember right, the Devidians live in a realm that occupies the same space that we do, and it is off-phase but I don't think they are also off-time, so pulling Iconians into the Devidian realm may have no effect at all.
They have also thoroughly demonstrated their capability to reach into other realms (see Fluid Dynamics), so containing an Iconian is extremely difficult if they can just go *poof* on you with gateways that they can summon at will. Plus the Iconians are energy based and the Devidians specifically target neural energy in organics. How can you drain neural energy from someone if your "victim" doesn't have a physical brain to talk about, and has some kind of energy matrix instead? Heck I don't know they might be able to drain an Iconian but it may have the wrong flavor. ^^
And yes they might turn on us any second.
Come to think of it how come T'Ket never gets her... its left arm back? If they are energy based I bet they can regenerate at an amazing rate if they have a suitable energy source (omega? ^^).
For the Undine... you know their policy: "Don't call us, we'll call you."
For the Borg: I think firepower is the best they can provide at this point. Remember the Romulan storyline. A cube got pretty much gutted from the inside by something - probably Iconian gateway technology - and a huge chunk was removed from the ship. The Iconians and their servitors appear to be pwning them tech-wise.
"Ad astra audacter eamus in alis fidelium."
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"To boldly go to the stars on the wings of the faithful."
Okay, so maybe this is me but I seem to remember the Year of Hell part 1 and 2 from Voyager. It seems that having to use a weapon ship to eliminate the Iconians from existence or even from a period after Iconia was destroyed will cause a major problem. As well, eliminating Jarrod wouldn't in my mind change history. I think that in order to turn the tide of the war that we must ally with the Undine. The enemy of my enemy is my friend. It seems that has been repeated in Star Trek lore and in the most recent JJ trek movie.
I do want to throw something out there though. The Vadwaar and the Iconians were initially defeated by a coalition of species. Perhaps the developers may have us go back in time to join the coalition of forces 200k years prior to make sure the Iconians don't escape and put them in suspended animation. it's just a thought, however, anything that is done from that event could also affect travel to the delta quadrant or even the use of spheres, so that would have to be carefully planned.
Yeah both the Iconians and the Vaadwaur were initially defeated by an alliance / coalition but not sure if the two are the same. Remember the Vaadwaur were brought down by the Turei and several neighboring civilizations that had enough of Vaad' ships using those subspace corridors.
Then again if the Turei were one of the slave races... who knows at this point X)
"Ad astra audacter eamus in alis fidelium."
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"To boldly go to the stars on the wings of the faithful."
I do not know if most of you ever played the R-Type series video game at all... But I remember that in one of the games (R-Type Delta) there was an R-13A Cerberus you can play as. In that game when you finish the game using this ship - the end is very sad because you find yourself adrift in space, alone, with no help to pretty much die. However, when R-Type Final came out, there was a mission in the game called "Forest Watchdog" and it was Stage 3.5. In this mission, the boss is a R-13A Cerberus - how it got there, how did it come to that situation?.. Well no one knows. Back in Delta they mentioned that one was sent to investigate something and never came back, in Final it is also mentioned this ship along with also stating the military never mentioning the incident... So I'm guessing this is the same R-13A that the player used in Delta and the player's fate was to become part of the Bydo (within a tree).
To make my long post short, it would be nice to see something like this. I mean, the whole war is talking about losing just about everything... But why do I feel we aren't losing anything at all? Probably because I do not find myself dying at all at any time. Maybe if they show our ship explode or whatever and then we are recovered from a pod, or something in the timeline revives us to keep fighting - the story would be interesting... Either way, this war doesn't feel 1% anything of what it claims.
If I remember right, the Devidians live in a realm that occupies the same space that we do, and it is off-phase but I don't think they are also off-time, so pulling Iconians into the Devidian realm may have no effect at all.
Not quite. The Devidians' form of phasing is temporal in nature. They exist +.004 seconds ahead of us, which is sufficient to render them invisible. The Krenim on Kyana used a similar technique, pushing an entire +.500 ahead. The nature of the Devidians' phasing is both TNG canon and STO canon. The nature of the Krenim's phasing is stated directly in "Time in a Bottle."
They have also thoroughly demonstrated their capability to reach into other realms (see Fluid Dynamics), so containing an Iconian is extremely difficult if they can just go *poof* on you with gateways that they can summon at will. Plus the Iconians are energy based and the Devidians specifically target neural energy in organics. How can you drain neural energy from someone if your "victim" doesn't have a physical brain to talk about, and has some kind of energy matrix instead? Heck I don't know they might be able to drain an Iconian but it may have the wrong flavor. ^^
Surely there are plenty of Heralds to snack on, and not all of them are Constructs... O_O
And yes they might turn on us any second.
Indeed, that IS the big risk and one I make no bones about.
Come to think of it how come T'Ket never gets her... its left arm back? If they are energy based I bet they can regenerate at an amazing rate if they have a suitable energy source (omega? ^^).
My Devidian captain (Earth-raised and takes artificial sustenance, unlike his extremely dangerous biological kin) would definitely call out the wrongness of calling them "energy beings" based on the evidence that they are not. "I am a 'neurovore' and a telekinete, but that does not make me an 'energy being.' I am made of matter just like you are. Being an 'energiovore,' to make up a word, doesn't make the Iconians any less matter-based than me. Or you, humanoids."
For the Undine... you know their policy: "Don't call us, we'll call you."
Of course, all of our "calls" have been in the form of violence. As far as I am aware, communication-only attempts have been made only once, namely with the Starfleet Academy replica, and that actually resulted in, if not a truce, some evidence of real, independent thought on the part of the individuals there. So I would not rule out the possibility of alliance if a means of transmitting into fluidic space without physically intruding were discovered.
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The Borg were able to use some sort of transceivers to connect their base in fluidic space to the rest of the Collective. Chances are, they routed the signal through quantum singularities that acted like windows or conduits for the signal.
So it may be as simple as opening the door and just sending a message through instead of flying in.
Still not sure what kind of reaction to expect from the Undine there. We might get a simple Nicor with an envoy, or a battle-ready Tethys dread' with an escort.
"Ad astra audacter eamus in alis fidelium."
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"To boldly go to the stars on the wings of the faithful."
Die for what you believe in. If that means letting the Iconians slaughter you, then step on up to the chopping block.
If you aren't willing to die for what you believe in, then kindly shut your trap the next time an alien race does something morally ambiguous that offends your delicate sensibilities. You've already opted out of the moral high ground.
The Borg were able to use some sort of transceivers to connect their base in fluidic space to the rest of the Collective. Chances are, they routed the signal through quantum singularities that acted like windows or conduits for the signal.
So it may be as simple as opening the door and just sending a message through instead of flying in.
Still not sure what kind of reaction to expect from the Undine there. We might get a simple Nicor with an envoy, or a battle-ready Tethys dread' with an escort.
That said, from an Undine perspective those transceivers were placed there as part of an aggressive act. So IMO we would need to figure out how to get a signal in without any physical intrusion. Not impossible, I don't think, but if there are naturally "thin" areas between our space and fluidic space--and I think there would have to be, for the Borg to have realized they exist in the first place, and for the Gekli to get out into our space in TNG--then it might be possible to just park a signal repeater on OUR side of such a rift and broadcast until we got a reply.
I believe that would give us the best chances of a semi-civil response versus inviting another war fleet out to slaughter us.
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Basicly someone used Gowron's idea near the end of Dominion war, ordering Martok to send 1/3 of the klingon fleet , strike deep into cardassian held territory.
Worf thought it was a bad idea and slayed Gowron
I seem to recall the mission with the Obelisk mentioning that they would need to deal with the Alpha Quadrant powers before making an attempt on The Dominion. I suspect that even the Iconians fear the Founders and their pseudo religion.
You ever wonder if they open these "discuss forums", for the sole purpose of incorporating elements of our thoughts into the stories Cryptic writers tell now or in the future?
Now there's a temporal paradox.
I'm sure that's part of why they don't shut the forums down but I also think our theories and ideas need a bit more lead time than they typically have for episodes.
I think about the closest turnaround for a forum idea making it in game without already being worked on was the stuff with the other dead Harry Kim and the Kobali and that was several months.
This entire Iconian Arc does not "feel" like a war! Sorry but a few missions is NOT a war immersive experience! Should of had at least a Red alert mission like the Borg and Tholians to make this war more believable and immersive. Additional group missions besides just the Klingon world would of been nice too. Disappointing overall:( Your making it harder and harder for this Vet to put time into this game.
They should make a mission with the same theme as DS9's "In a Pale Moonlight"
Here you go.. 20 minutes of throwing ideas around... If you don't want it. I'll foundry it at some point.
UNDINE, SAVE US!
After the defeat at the Herald Sphere. Franklin Drake decides we need some help.. now! So he contacts us and meets us in some secret place posing as the Starfleet Academy Janitor.
Ground: SFA
So after talking with the player about who to recruit... Borg, Undine, Breen, Nyberite Alliance... they decide.. the Undine are the only ones who have the ability to make a rather large hole in the material the Iconians use. As they did when they blew open the doors on the Jenolan Dyson Sphere. ("Step Between Stars")
Then you go on about how to get the Undine involved... the end result being... "Yeah, let's do it the same way the Iconians did it."
Now the conversation changes to.. "We need a Herald ship then" so.. we go through a list of targets... and recent battles.
"Battle of the Herald Sphere" - Yeah... going back there will end well.
"Battle of Mol'Rihan" - No Herald ships here anymore... choose again.
"Battle of New Talax" - Too far away... I'm sure they'll be fine.
"Battle of X System" - TaDa!
So... Now we're off to go find a Herald Dreadnought.
"But how will we get close enough without them killing us?"
Well... remember the Elachi ship from "Target Alpha/Devil's choice" ? Tada!
CUTSCENE: Elachi Ship inside ESD.
Space: X System
CUTSCENE: Elachi/Herald and Talarian ships fighting.
We arrive in "X System" and find find Elachi forces (Bring em back!) with a Herald Dreadnought attacking the Talarian Republic (Generic Frigate 01)
Caught in the battle.. you're forced to attack the Talarians to fool the Elachi/Heralds.
Now... after watching the Talarians explode... Drake and the player decide it's better if no one knows about this mission... so no Bridge officers on board the Herald Dreadnought.
Once you get in range... you beam over and your officers on the "Elachi Alpha" ship retreat.
Ground: Herald Dreadnought
You and Drake, now on the Herald ship.. (With your Herald holographic disguises) start to explore the ship.. soon you discover the ship is part of an Invasion of X Talarian planet. (Heralds... Heralds everywhere!)
Drake tells you not to worry as he has some samples of gasses S31 was working on. One of them should deal with all the Heralds. Providing you can reach the enviromental controls.
(20 minutes of getting lost on the Herald ship here.)
CUTSCENE: As your about to enter the "Enviromental control room" L'Miren and Iconian #3 leave said room gliding down the corridor having a chat about M'Tara and the events of "Broken Circle" (Yes. Even they're like "Wtf?") L'Miren evaporates leaving Iconian #3 to oversee the Invasion.
You then enter the room and start playing around with the gas. After one of those minigames one of the gasses begins to kill off the Herald crew.
Iconian #3 then appears in the room. Confused, she looks at you and Drake. The player and Drake for no other reason than what your about to read below... deactivate your diguises.
Iconian #3 shakes her fist cursing "IT'S A FAKE!" then inspired by T'Ket insults you, threatens you and brings in some Elachi minions for a fight.
"BOSS FIGHT"
Iconian #3 and her Elachi minions start shooting at you. You and Drake defeat them.
CUTSCENE: Iconian #3... knowing how this will end, leaves the dreadnought to you and Drake.
You and Drake find the ship's bridge and begin your plan to bring the Undine into the war.
Space: Fluidic Space
Cutscene: The Herald ship enters Fluidic Space.
You're in Fluidic Space... in control of the Herald ship. You and Drake patrol the area taking your shots at every Undine target you come across.
The Undine start fighting back, but not before you use the super Herald Lazor destroys one of those Terradomes.
Ground: Undine Bridge
CUTSCENE: Iconian #3 arrives with more Herald ships to kill you. However gets intercepted by Undine ships.
CUTSCENE 2: An Undine bioship parks nexts to the Herald ship your on. It beams you and Drake over. ( Oh ****. They know?) Then destroys your captured dreadnought.
CUTSCENE 3: Drake turns out to be one of the Undine Infiltrators left behind after the events of "Surface Tension." It witnessed M'Tara's speech on Qu'Nos and stuff.
You then have the chance to have a chat with the Undine...
"Why?"
"How can you live knowing you killed your own people?"
"Where is Drake?"
"Where is Doctor Cooper?"
"Will Terradome come back?"
"What happens now?" - CUTSCENE 4
CUTSCENE 4: Heralds and Undine fight in the background. Undine ship leaves Fluidic Space, emerges above Earth, then beams you back to SFA.
MISSION COMPLETE
And there you have it... The Children of Fluidic Light were right! The Undine are gods!
Then for the reward... the "Herald Stick"
Note: I did not make this post in an attempt to get an Iconian to go "It's a Fake!" ... well... maybe.
What's happening in the Gamma quadrant? Are the Dominion forces fighting the Iconians too, or is the war against the galaxy really just against half of it? I might have missed something in one of the missions ... does anyone mention it?
Once you start progressing in the Iconian Rep you find a green data reciever in your inventory which is pretty much Selas personal Vlog where she tells you of her attempts to get the Dominion to join the War.
Kinda weird though that Sela is the only one, I mean, we pretty much find prove of a planned Iconian invasion of Dominion space in the Dyson sphere during "Sphere of Influence", Alliance Diplomats should be there already.
Starting a dialogue with the Voth comes to mind as well, they are supposedly a mayor, not evil, power and I'd like to see them as more then a bunch of Space Bullies who are getting worfed constantly to show us how powerful the current newest Foe is.
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Join Starfleet,
Boldly go where no man has gone before,
Meet interesting new species, and Kill them!
The moment she noted that she was at a strategic disadvantage, she could have (and should have) withdrawn. She'd already trotted out the clichéd line about "destroying us with a wave of her [appendage]," then noted that the ol' mojo wasn't where she thought it would be. A reasoning being capable of strategy and tactics would have retreated at that point to restore her energy source.
We were disabling power nodes on the ship, not in the sphere. Clearly M'Tara was capable of creating space warps on her own for the purpose of getting around--so finding another energy source within the sphere should have been a trivial effort. (How, exactly, we know how to use that power node is never explained, other than through the Miracle That is the Tricorder--remember, they come programmed to detect nearby makeshift prisons, as we saw on Nimbus III.)
But no--instead, she "burns her essence" to create space warps for herself, and to bring in the usual gang of thralls, multiple times. (By the way, what is it with the Iconians and overuse of the verb "burn?") This is the functional equivalent of the defenders of the Alamo deciding that, having run out of bullets and arrows, they should cut off their own body parts and fling them at the advancing enemy forces. It makes even less sense when you consider that she was trying to save one ship--not the sphere itself, or anything at all of major consequence, because we've been told the Iconians have millions of ships at their disposal. Metaphorically, she ran into the middle of a busy six-lane highway to save a dropped grocery receipt and got run over by an ice cream truck. That video has been posted in the Fail channel of the Iconian analog to YouTube.
This is not the sign of an intelligent being, much less that of the leader of a group of Highly-Advanced Beings Who Once Ruled the Galaxy.
Who administered the coup de grâce? She did, by coming back one last time to die on-stage instead of allowing one of her servitors to carry her back to wherever Iconians go to twirl their mustaches for a latte and a recharge. It seems as if she could have summoned the other two at any time--but it never occurred to her to send out a "a little help here, m'kay?" query to T'Ket and L'Miren instead of lunging back in to the fray time after time?
Frankly, I've seen more thoughtful behavior from a tribble. What it shows is that the Iconians are irrational, bordering on the clinically insane. It seems like they've been that way for 200,000 years. Rehabilitation might be beyond our capabilities.
As has been pointed out elsewhere, we could have taken out T'Ket and L'Miren as well--after all, we brought over 600 Federation crew members with us, and only sent about a dozen onto that ship. The transporters were still working, so it shouldn't have been a problem to bring in a few more guns and solve those two problems--or at least find out if they're better at strategy and tactics than M'Tara was. If M'Tara was without a local energy source thanks to our shenanigans, then so were T'Ket and M'Liren. We could have had a major victory there.
Instead, we bailed out and indulged in a nice sulk.
I've completely given up on this storyline. From a gameplay perspective, you have completely failed to make the Iconian War even the least bit interesting. These "Tales from the War" hype it up into something that isn't reflected in the game. You just added Ferenginar, Trill, Betazed, and a host of other worlds that weren't in the game previously. You could have turned any one of them into a Space or Ground battlezone to make the war feel like it's actually hitting home. Iconian Deep Space Encounters and Red Alerts would have been nice to add and likely wouldn't have required much work. This was a huge let down, guys. Really disappointing.
Can anyone recommend any good Foundry missions that might make the Iconian War feel a bit more like a war? I've given up on the devs - the Featured Episodes keep getting worse and worse.
Comments
If you aren't willing to die for what you believe in, then kindly shut your trap the next time an alien race does something morally ambiguous that offends your delicate sensibilities. You've already opted out of the moral high ground.
You can't have it both ways.
Why? 'cause they can't remember shifts in time.
I can easily see this story arc taking that path.
We build this morally ambiguous weapon, then Sela steals it and heads out to zap Iconia out of existence.
Suddenly we have to save the Iconians from Sela's vengeance.
We can keep our starfleet morals, be the heroes, be the "other" and set the timeline back on track upholding the principles of the temporal prime directive and all that good jazz.
Now there's a temporal paradox.
:: sneezes :: Why is it no-one dusts the bridge on Starfleet vessels?" -Emsil Marat, Glinn
"We can not interfere in the progression of one's life" -Richard Lynch, LtCdr
They should add these Tales of the War blogs to the missions in the Iconian War story arc as stuff that people could read at various consoles, padds, etc.
I do like the insight they add to the war and they make me brainstorm over just ~~what happens neeeext?~~
But posting them on the website only --- they're only going to get burried under the newer posts as time passes and I believe they have a value worth preserving, as well as a place in-game.
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"To boldly go to the stars on the wings of the faithful."
2. Cardassia is not currently a Major military power, they forces are likely busy protect Cardassian space from the Iconians and the True Way forces.
3. The Tholians Empire exists in multiple realities and times, and I see no evidence of conflict between them and the Iconians.
4. The Ferengi are primarily a commercial power and even Ferengi Mercs are unlikely to take a suicidal job. Dead men spend no latinium.
5. The Borg maybe waiting to pick over the Iconians left overs or they may actually be a result of Iconian experimentation. They do talk alot about repairing the whole.
6. The Deferi and no where near being a major military power and whatever military they have is likely mostly focused on defending they're own people.
7. available ships for the attack on the sphere are likely to havs been a limited percentage of the fleet, as core worlds like the Gorn Home World, Earth, Qoronos, Ter'jas Mor, Betazed, Vulcan, Tellar, Andoria, Lethean, Trill Prime, New Romulus, ect... are under attack by fleets of Iconian ships.
They have before. Everything we say on the Cryptic forums becomes the intellectual property of Cryptic. Any changes to the game (including the story) as a result of forum feedback is theirs to own.
Another potential ally that I still find completely abhorrent--though more of a long shot because I don't know that they have a grievance against the Iconians--is the Devidians. We know the Devidians excel in temporophasic manipulation, and the Spectres series has IMO sufficiently established that their threats in "Time's Arrow" were not idle. If they can pull an entire sector out of temporophasic alignment, then their threat on Earth in that TNG episode probably wasn't empty. Imagine what would happen if they pulled the Iconia system out of alignment and wiped the minds of the Heralds and Iconians inside that sphere. Or if they set up a resonance that blew it up, like they threatened to do to Earth. The only thing is that...incentivizing them...is likely to be very, VERY ugly, and could involve trading in blood. We would essentially be using them as OUR version of the Solanae and Elachi, with all of the nastiness that entails. This option would be marginally better than the Krenim time weapon, IMO--but only marginally and with great potential of backfiring.
Another possibility is to attempt to beam the Iconians out of time and then put them back, as others have discussed--erase their minds by beaming them aboard the time ship to hopefully make them more amenable, but don't fire the main weapon.
The last, should we "HAVE" to fire the time weapon, is to eliminate J'mpok from the timeline. J'mpok is the idiot responsible for the destabilization of the quadrant that gave the Iconians a foothold. Instead of recognizing that he cannot just attack the Federation and use the infiltrators as a blatant excuse for territorial aggrandizement--AND recognizing that after the Klingon attack on Cardassia on false pretenses in 2372 they have zero credibility with the Federation in this area and therefore must build it nonviolently--he just went like a rabid targ after the Federation, who could have gotten to the bottom of what was happening with the Undine IF actually given the news by reasonable adults instead of people who were acting like war-hungry animals. The Federation could have gotten the Undine talking, and the Iconians would have to live in fear of facing a quadrant united all the way to fluidic space.
Another point I want to raise: the Delta Recruit plotline did not pay off at all. Nothing Cray did, or the Delta Recruit does, matters. Not. One. Bit. That was very poorly executed and we can see now just how much so.
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They have also thoroughly demonstrated their capability to reach into other realms (see Fluid Dynamics), so containing an Iconian is extremely difficult if they can just go *poof* on you with gateways that they can summon at will. Plus the Iconians are energy based and the Devidians specifically target neural energy in organics. How can you drain neural energy from someone if your "victim" doesn't have a physical brain to talk about, and has some kind of energy matrix instead? Heck I don't know they might be able to drain an Iconian but it may have the wrong flavor. ^^
And yes they might turn on us any second.
Come to think of it how come T'Ket never gets her... its left arm back? If they are energy based I bet they can regenerate at an amazing rate if they have a suitable energy source (omega? ^^).
For the Undine... you know their policy: "Don't call us, we'll call you."
For the Borg: I think firepower is the best they can provide at this point. Remember the Romulan storyline. A cube got pretty much gutted from the inside by something - probably Iconian gateway technology - and a huge chunk was removed from the ship. The Iconians and their servitors appear to be pwning them tech-wise.
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"To boldly go to the stars on the wings of the faithful."
I do want to throw something out there though. The Vadwaar and the Iconians were initially defeated by a coalition of species. Perhaps the developers may have us go back in time to join the coalition of forces 200k years prior to make sure the Iconians don't escape and put them in suspended animation. it's just a thought, however, anything that is done from that event could also affect travel to the delta quadrant or even the use of spheres, so that would have to be carefully planned.
Then again if the Turei were one of the slave races... who knows at this point X)
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"To boldly go to the stars on the wings of the faithful."
I do not know if most of you ever played the R-Type series video game at all... But I remember that in one of the games (R-Type Delta) there was an R-13A Cerberus you can play as. In that game when you finish the game using this ship - the end is very sad because you find yourself adrift in space, alone, with no help to pretty much die. However, when R-Type Final came out, there was a mission in the game called "Forest Watchdog" and it was Stage 3.5. In this mission, the boss is a R-13A Cerberus - how it got there, how did it come to that situation?.. Well no one knows. Back in Delta they mentioned that one was sent to investigate something and never came back, in Final it is also mentioned this ship along with also stating the military never mentioning the incident... So I'm guessing this is the same R-13A that the player used in Delta and the player's fate was to become part of the Bydo (within a tree).
To make my long post short, it would be nice to see something like this. I mean, the whole war is talking about losing just about everything... But why do I feel we aren't losing anything at all? Probably because I do not find myself dying at all at any time. Maybe if they show our ship explode or whatever and then we are recovered from a pod, or something in the timeline revives us to keep fighting - the story would be interesting... Either way, this war doesn't feel 1% anything of what it claims.
Not quite. The Devidians' form of phasing is temporal in nature. They exist +.004 seconds ahead of us, which is sufficient to render them invisible. The Krenim on Kyana used a similar technique, pushing an entire +.500 ahead. The nature of the Devidians' phasing is both TNG canon and STO canon. The nature of the Krenim's phasing is stated directly in "Time in a Bottle."
Surely there are plenty of Heralds to snack on, and not all of them are Constructs... O_O
Indeed, that IS the big risk and one I make no bones about.
My Devidian captain (Earth-raised and takes artificial sustenance, unlike his extremely dangerous biological kin) would definitely call out the wrongness of calling them "energy beings" based on the evidence that they are not. "I am a 'neurovore' and a telekinete, but that does not make me an 'energy being.' I am made of matter just like you are. Being an 'energiovore,' to make up a word, doesn't make the Iconians any less matter-based than me. Or you, humanoids."
Of course, all of our "calls" have been in the form of violence. As far as I am aware, communication-only attempts have been made only once, namely with the Starfleet Academy replica, and that actually resulted in, if not a truce, some evidence of real, independent thought on the part of the individuals there. So I would not rule out the possibility of alliance if a means of transmitting into fluidic space without physically intruding were discovered.
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So it may be as simple as opening the door and just sending a message through instead of flying in.
Still not sure what kind of reaction to expect from the Undine there. We might get a simple Nicor with an envoy, or a battle-ready Tethys dread' with an escort.
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"To boldly go to the stars on the wings of the faithful."
The Iotians did!
That said, from an Undine perspective those transceivers were placed there as part of an aggressive act. So IMO we would need to figure out how to get a signal in without any physical intrusion. Not impossible, I don't think, but if there are naturally "thin" areas between our space and fluidic space--and I think there would have to be, for the Borg to have realized they exist in the first place, and for the Gekli to get out into our space in TNG--then it might be possible to just park a signal repeater on OUR side of such a rift and broadcast until we got a reply.
I believe that would give us the best chances of a semi-civil response versus inviting another war fleet out to slaughter us.
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Worf thought it was a bad idea and slayed Gowron
I'm sure that's part of why they don't shut the forums down but I also think our theories and ideas need a bit more lead time than they typically have for episodes.
I think about the closest turnaround for a forum idea making it in game without already being worked on was the stuff with the other dead Harry Kim and the Kobali and that was several months.
So Say We All!
Here you go.. 20 minutes of throwing ideas around... If you don't want it. I'll foundry it at some point.
After the defeat at the Herald Sphere. Franklin Drake decides we need some help.. now! So he contacts us and meets us in some secret place posing as the Starfleet Academy Janitor.
Ground: SFA
So after talking with the player about who to recruit... Borg, Undine, Breen, Nyberite Alliance... they decide.. the Undine are the only ones who have the ability to make a rather large hole in the material the Iconians use. As they did when they blew open the doors on the Jenolan Dyson Sphere. ("Step Between Stars")
Then you go on about how to get the Undine involved... the end result being... "Yeah, let's do it the same way the Iconians did it."
Now the conversation changes to.. "We need a Herald ship then" so.. we go through a list of targets... and recent battles.
"Battle of the Herald Sphere" - Yeah... going back there will end well.
"Battle of Mol'Rihan" - No Herald ships here anymore... choose again.
"Battle of New Talax" - Too far away... I'm sure they'll be fine.
"Battle of X System" - TaDa!
So... Now we're off to go find a Herald Dreadnought.
"But how will we get close enough without them killing us?"
Well... remember the Elachi ship from "Target Alpha/Devil's choice" ? Tada!
CUTSCENE: Elachi Ship inside ESD.
Space: X System
CUTSCENE: Elachi/Herald and Talarian ships fighting.
We arrive in "X System" and find find Elachi forces (Bring em back!) with a Herald Dreadnought attacking the Talarian Republic (Generic Frigate 01)
Caught in the battle.. you're forced to attack the Talarians to fool the Elachi/Heralds.
Now... after watching the Talarians explode... Drake and the player decide it's better if no one knows about this mission... so no Bridge officers on board the Herald Dreadnought.
Once you get in range... you beam over and your officers on the "Elachi Alpha" ship retreat.
Ground: Herald Dreadnought
You and Drake, now on the Herald ship.. (With your Herald holographic disguises) start to explore the ship.. soon you discover the ship is part of an Invasion of X Talarian planet. (Heralds... Heralds everywhere!)
Drake tells you not to worry as he has some samples of gasses S31 was working on. One of them should deal with all the Heralds. Providing you can reach the enviromental controls.
(20 minutes of getting lost on the Herald ship here.)
CUTSCENE: As your about to enter the "Enviromental control room" L'Miren and Iconian #3 leave said room gliding down the corridor having a chat about M'Tara and the events of "Broken Circle" (Yes. Even they're like "Wtf?") L'Miren evaporates leaving Iconian #3 to oversee the Invasion.
You then enter the room and start playing around with the gas. After one of those minigames one of the gasses begins to kill off the Herald crew.
Iconian #3 then appears in the room. Confused, she looks at you and Drake. The player and Drake for no other reason than what your about to read below... deactivate your diguises.
Iconian #3 shakes her fist cursing "IT'S A FAKE!" then inspired by T'Ket insults you, threatens you and brings in some Elachi minions for a fight.
"BOSS FIGHT"
Iconian #3 and her Elachi minions start shooting at you. You and Drake defeat them.
CUTSCENE: Iconian #3... knowing how this will end, leaves the dreadnought to you and Drake.
You and Drake find the ship's bridge and begin your plan to bring the Undine into the war.
Space: Fluidic Space
Cutscene: The Herald ship enters Fluidic Space.
You're in Fluidic Space... in control of the Herald ship. You and Drake patrol the area taking your shots at every Undine target you come across.
The Undine start fighting back, but not before you use the super Herald Lazor destroys one of those Terradomes.
Ground: Undine Bridge
CUTSCENE: Iconian #3 arrives with more Herald ships to kill you. However gets intercepted by Undine ships.
CUTSCENE 2: An Undine bioship parks nexts to the Herald ship your on. It beams you and Drake over. ( Oh ****. They know?) Then destroys your captured dreadnought.
CUTSCENE 3: Drake turns out to be one of the Undine Infiltrators left behind after the events of "Surface Tension." It witnessed M'Tara's speech on Qu'Nos and stuff.
You then have the chance to have a chat with the Undine...
"Why?"
"How can you live knowing you killed your own people?"
"Where is Drake?"
"Where is Doctor Cooper?"
"Will Terradome come back?"
"What happens now?" - CUTSCENE 4
CUTSCENE 4: Heralds and Undine fight in the background. Undine ship leaves Fluidic Space, emerges above Earth, then beams you back to SFA.
And there you have it... The Children of Fluidic Light were right! The Undine are gods!
Then for the reward... the "Herald Stick"
Note: I did not make this post in an attempt to get an Iconian to go "It's a Fake!" ... well... maybe.
Once you start progressing in the Iconian Rep you find a green data reciever in your inventory which is pretty much Selas personal Vlog where she tells you of her attempts to get the Dominion to join the War.
Kinda weird though that Sela is the only one, I mean, we pretty much find prove of a planned Iconian invasion of Dominion space in the Dyson sphere during "Sphere of Influence", Alliance Diplomats should be there already.
Starting a dialogue with the Voth comes to mind as well, they are supposedly a mayor, not evil, power and I'd like to see them as more then a bunch of Space Bullies who are getting worfed constantly to show us how powerful the current newest Foe is.
Join Starfleet,
Boldly go where no man has gone before,
Meet interesting new species, and Kill them!
Except we didn't. M'Tara committed suicide.
The moment she noted that she was at a strategic disadvantage, she could have (and should have) withdrawn. She'd already trotted out the clichéd line about "destroying us with a wave of her [appendage]," then noted that the ol' mojo wasn't where she thought it would be. A reasoning being capable of strategy and tactics would have retreated at that point to restore her energy source.
We were disabling power nodes on the ship, not in the sphere. Clearly M'Tara was capable of creating space warps on her own for the purpose of getting around--so finding another energy source within the sphere should have been a trivial effort. (How, exactly, we know how to use that power node is never explained, other than through the Miracle That is the Tricorder--remember, they come programmed to detect nearby makeshift prisons, as we saw on Nimbus III.)
But no--instead, she "burns her essence" to create space warps for herself, and to bring in the usual gang of thralls, multiple times. (By the way, what is it with the Iconians and overuse of the verb "burn?") This is the functional equivalent of the defenders of the Alamo deciding that, having run out of bullets and arrows, they should cut off their own body parts and fling them at the advancing enemy forces. It makes even less sense when you consider that she was trying to save one ship--not the sphere itself, or anything at all of major consequence, because we've been told the Iconians have millions of ships at their disposal. Metaphorically, she ran into the middle of a busy six-lane highway to save a dropped grocery receipt and got run over by an ice cream truck. That video has been posted in the Fail channel of the Iconian analog to YouTube.
This is not the sign of an intelligent being, much less that of the leader of a group of Highly-Advanced Beings Who Once Ruled the Galaxy.
Who administered the coup de grâce? She did, by coming back one last time to die on-stage instead of allowing one of her servitors to carry her back to wherever Iconians go to twirl their mustaches for a latte and a recharge. It seems as if she could have summoned the other two at any time--but it never occurred to her to send out a "a little help here, m'kay?" query to T'Ket and L'Miren instead of lunging back in to the fray time after time?
Frankly, I've seen more thoughtful behavior from a tribble. What it shows is that the Iconians are irrational, bordering on the clinically insane. It seems like they've been that way for 200,000 years. Rehabilitation might be beyond our capabilities.
As has been pointed out elsewhere, we could have taken out T'Ket and L'Miren as well--after all, we brought over 600 Federation crew members with us, and only sent about a dozen onto that ship. The transporters were still working, so it shouldn't have been a problem to bring in a few more guns and solve those two problems--or at least find out if they're better at strategy and tactics than M'Tara was. If M'Tara was without a local energy source thanks to our shenanigans, then so were T'Ket and M'Liren. We could have had a major victory there.
Instead, we bailed out and indulged in a nice sulk.
Can anyone recommend any good Foundry missions that might make the Iconian War feel a bit more like a war? I've given up on the devs - the Featured Episodes keep getting worse and worse.