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pvp please (again)
jackmorgan1149
Member Posts: 111 Arc User
Dear Cryptic,
I have been playing since f2p. While I have enjoyed many aspects of the game, the part that has always had me playing the longest and spending the most is pvp. I get bored by pve. If it weren't for the variety of ways you can play, and have to adapt, I would have done one character and focused on one build. I spend money for this. The PVP in this game is ________(fill in the blank).
PVP makes money and maintains a solid player base if it's a fun system. Games today are built solely for pvp. You have half of it right now. Fill in the other half and make some cash.
So here are my thoughts:
-Separate it
--The mechanics are already there.
--PVP begins at tier 1 (yay Mirandas). Doesn't matter where you have progressed in the pve game, everyone starts at tier 1. World of Tanks style. You gain experience to advance, but you don't have to leave your tier until you are ready to.
--higher tiers equal greater rewards. Motivation to advance.
--gives players the opportunity to learn pvp mechanics. Pve doesn't do nearly enough to teach this. Start everyone at the bottom, and let them learn how to be successful fighting real competition.
-You may use the ships you have purchased.
--Here is your money maker, and your minor pay to win. Any ship you've bought at your tier may be used for pvp. This will give a small advantage to the guys who spend cash. This will encourage folks to buy a variety of ships, particularly at lower levels.
--All universal consoles are restricted to the ships they come with. Universal consoles are pay to win. Cryptic makes money. This is not insurmountable by the guys that want to free to play. Maintains an element of balance as the game progresses. Allows for minor pay to win which makes money.
--10 consoles, 12 boffs vs. the same.
--11 consoles, 12 boffs vs. 10 consoles 13 boffs
--11 consoles, 13 boffs vs 11 consoles 13 boffs--Only way to be fair.
-Matchmaking
--gives the best chance for balanced matches between groups. For the best, balance class types as well. Working against the possibility of 5 sci's, etc. This is so doable. Tons of games have this feature. If you make games competitive, people will play. Bad guys have to kill bad guys, and they will feel rewarded to do it if they're given the chance. I truly believe if it's a competitive match, guys will strive to get there. It's an mmo... we thrive on improvement.
-Gear
--Every piece of equipment available for ec/skill/research is maximum rare. You already have this in your system and it can pick it up on the exchange for a reasonable amount.
--pay to play gets very rare. It costs cash/experience/ec to earn this. I'm ok with it. It's an advantage, but one that isn't a huge detriment to skill. Blue can still beat purple. Just takes more skill. No fleet gear. You can use rep sets (I really don't think that's a huge deal, as most sets suck to have everything... but I am not perfect).
-Doffs
--maximum green
--pay to play gets blue. I think that kills off most of the major doff issues. Aux to bat still exists, but so what.
-Skill points
--Your pvp character has pvp skill points and starts off new.
--Think of the money you're going to earn on respecs.
-No fleet gear, no rep traits, no specializations, no ship traits, no ship progressions. 5U's and 6's stay at the bottom. Keep it reasonable for time in game. If he's here more than me, than his skill should be better.
-No Lobi gear. Lobi ships, yes.
-Que are the only rewards. None for privates.
-1k dil and some fleet marks for the victors, half for the losers. Make it a 3 match daily. Figure this out among tiers... I'm not gonna.
-15 minute time limit. Kills then scores/caps.
-Event to get it started. Like mirror, or crystalline. You do so many matches (earning rewards) in a month's plus time, you get a TRIBBLE load of dil and a cool doff or weapon for pvp. If you sell it well, people will keep playing.
-Gives players something to do besides the grind. Earns credits towards the grind. You create the system, players make their own content (you've heard this before). Why not make money on this? It's a niche, but it's a positive one that keeps players in your game.
I have been playing since f2p. While I have enjoyed many aspects of the game, the part that has always had me playing the longest and spending the most is pvp. I get bored by pve. If it weren't for the variety of ways you can play, and have to adapt, I would have done one character and focused on one build. I spend money for this. The PVP in this game is ________(fill in the blank).
PVP makes money and maintains a solid player base if it's a fun system. Games today are built solely for pvp. You have half of it right now. Fill in the other half and make some cash.
So here are my thoughts:
-Separate it
--The mechanics are already there.
--PVP begins at tier 1 (yay Mirandas). Doesn't matter where you have progressed in the pve game, everyone starts at tier 1. World of Tanks style. You gain experience to advance, but you don't have to leave your tier until you are ready to.
--higher tiers equal greater rewards. Motivation to advance.
--gives players the opportunity to learn pvp mechanics. Pve doesn't do nearly enough to teach this. Start everyone at the bottom, and let them learn how to be successful fighting real competition.
-You may use the ships you have purchased.
--Here is your money maker, and your minor pay to win. Any ship you've bought at your tier may be used for pvp. This will give a small advantage to the guys who spend cash. This will encourage folks to buy a variety of ships, particularly at lower levels.
--All universal consoles are restricted to the ships they come with. Universal consoles are pay to win. Cryptic makes money. This is not insurmountable by the guys that want to free to play. Maintains an element of balance as the game progresses. Allows for minor pay to win which makes money.
--10 consoles, 12 boffs vs. the same.
--11 consoles, 12 boffs vs. 10 consoles 13 boffs
--11 consoles, 13 boffs vs 11 consoles 13 boffs--Only way to be fair.
-Matchmaking
--gives the best chance for balanced matches between groups. For the best, balance class types as well. Working against the possibility of 5 sci's, etc. This is so doable. Tons of games have this feature. If you make games competitive, people will play. Bad guys have to kill bad guys, and they will feel rewarded to do it if they're given the chance. I truly believe if it's a competitive match, guys will strive to get there. It's an mmo... we thrive on improvement.
-Gear
--Every piece of equipment available for ec/skill/research is maximum rare. You already have this in your system and it can pick it up on the exchange for a reasonable amount.
--pay to play gets very rare. It costs cash/experience/ec to earn this. I'm ok with it. It's an advantage, but one that isn't a huge detriment to skill. Blue can still beat purple. Just takes more skill. No fleet gear. You can use rep sets (I really don't think that's a huge deal, as most sets suck to have everything... but I am not perfect).
-Doffs
--maximum green
--pay to play gets blue. I think that kills off most of the major doff issues. Aux to bat still exists, but so what.
-Skill points
--Your pvp character has pvp skill points and starts off new.
--Think of the money you're going to earn on respecs.
-No fleet gear, no rep traits, no specializations, no ship traits, no ship progressions. 5U's and 6's stay at the bottom. Keep it reasonable for time in game. If he's here more than me, than his skill should be better.
-No Lobi gear. Lobi ships, yes.
-Que are the only rewards. None for privates.
-1k dil and some fleet marks for the victors, half for the losers. Make it a 3 match daily. Figure this out among tiers... I'm not gonna.
-15 minute time limit. Kills then scores/caps.
-Event to get it started. Like mirror, or crystalline. You do so many matches (earning rewards) in a month's plus time, you get a TRIBBLE load of dil and a cool doff or weapon for pvp. If you sell it well, people will keep playing.
-Gives players something to do besides the grind. Earns credits towards the grind. You create the system, players make their own content (you've heard this before). Why not make money on this? It's a niche, but it's a positive one that keeps players in your game.
Post edited by askray on
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Comments
-system that doesn't reward non participants.
-solo/dual and team play available. Pugs and teams.
I know there is more. I know some of you hate the idea of pvp, and that's ok. I think there is a large player base that is competitive, and I think this would be a great way to keep them/me engaged.
-If you are que'd for an hour with no match, you get the daily.
This is all opinion. Take it as such. Approve and/or lambast at will.
It's pretty much this hard to keep just one timeline intact. ♪
Al Rivera personally stated in one of the Priority One Podcasts about 3 months ago that while he knows the PvP aspect of the game is in a rather sorry state, there are no plans to improve on PvP since Cryptic has many other priorities they want to address first. He further stated, that once most of the other priorities have been addressed he may look into the PvP aspect of the game.
I would guess at best he might look into improving PvP around 12 - 18 months from now.
because it sucks in this game. Make it fun. No shame. Just fun.
On a side note, saying "Who cares about PvP" is another way of saying "I have no clue what gaming is about".
Or, better yet, pinpoints "sunday players". Don't misunderstand me, I have nothing against them. It's hilarious when they pretend to be high enough for those bold statements.
The problem with the devs and PvP is that Cryptic has decided to move to a 'grind keeps players playing' and 'new toys keeps players interested' business model. This is the complete antitheses for having good PvP in a game since that business model promotes unbalanced abilities and a very high entry bar to PvP.
So saying 'we want good PvP' is essentially asking Cryptic to completely change their business model that they have since going F2P. Unless there is a major shakeup at Cryptic or somehow the business model that has worked until now fails, PvP will never be successful in STO.
The sad truth, but I for one will stay loyal to the game only because it's Star Trek. Even with all the Hax and opvp QQ, nothing beats blowing another player up with a ship you've spent a lot of time perfecting. People need to focus on one thing and use that to jump into pvp. No one takes time to master one thing & most don't have the discipline, new ship comes out they want it. New console comes out, they want it. To really be proficient in a ship for pvp in this game it takes about 100+ hours with your ship. Trial n error, testing, play style, power levels, boff layout, traits, Etc & finding the synergy with all that...
Then to actually learn when to send TT (tact team) to a friend over eng team. The pvp in this game is great once you can get your head around it all and fly with like minded individuals then vs like minded individuals.
But it takes discipline, a bit more effort than just log on & button smash. This is the difference between the PVP Vets and everyone else. Most people in ques Are the pvp vets. This current buisness model keeps most if not all players turning theirs heads, distracted from really understanding PvP. (Space pvp, no one cares about ground)
One day this games pvp will be fun, but it starts with the player making the best out of what they have.
PvP should remain end game content though, a whole new pvp mechanic system where everyone starts it tier one ships is silly for Star Trek.
So true...most good mmos use pvp as high level end game content for it's players. Obviously not the case here where it's virtually ignored.
I would disagree on that. The real PvP vets mostly all left STO after DR. What's left on the queues are players that don't mind using cheese and unbalanced abilities to stomp on players that can't really defend themselves against them*. Those people are one of the reasons why people don't want to PvP.
*I know of a couple of exceptions that don't fall into this category. You know who you are and this is not aimed at you.
I mean, unlesss cryptic make any way to separate servers into a pve and pvp one (something that will never happen because of money, you know), there is nothing that can be done to fix pvp.
True story, I've heard that from a lot of the oldies I used to fly with. I still think the most OP skill in the ques is teamwork/Awareness
A lot of pvp vets have left with DR & yet a lot have stayed. The ones i personally know who have stayed aren't using those cheesy builds, hell my build is so far from cheese & I still get scolded for using Hax.
The difference in the big picture is skill I think, well id like to imagine lol
false.
Those who abuse broken mechanics and/or claim that PvP is playable are not veterans.
They always say "in a year". That has been the response since 2010. At this point, those kinds of answers are just meaningless. Might as well say: "When pigs fly".
But it takes discipline, a bit more effort than just log on & button smash. This is the difference between the PVP Vets and everyone else. Most people in ques Are the pvp vets. This current buisness model keeps most if not all players turning theirs heads, distracted from really understanding PvP. (Space pvp, no one cares about ground)
One day this games pvp will be fun, but it starts with the player making the best out of what they have.
PvP should remain end game content though, a whole new pvp mechanic system where everyone starts it tier one ships is silly for Star Trek.
[/quote]
For pvp to be successful, it has to be available and competitive for everyone without vast differences in power. I totally respect and get why guys used to poor a ton of time and cash in this game. I can do that in spurts, but I'm not playing 2-4 a day. There is a huge chunk of this playerbase that is the same. I don't care about being the best, I just wanna have fun matches.
My pug team doesn't cross heal, neither does their's so no biggie. One of my tac teammates doesn't use tactical team, their sci is in a six hardpoint ship with no aux and all power to weapons. If The match is balanced by a system, we can still have fun. It's a game. The pvp immersion in this game is outstanding(I learn something new almost everytime I play) but there's got to be a place for guys who don't have the time or money, and a way to move on when they get it.
Endgame pvp is too fast for new guys. Too much to get the hang of. Baby steps. Build a population at the bottom and the competitive guys with resources will start making their way up. Entire games are based on this system, and you don't need major changes to pve (though I wish they would).
But it takes discipline, a bit more effort than just log on & button smash. This is the difference between the PVP Vets and everyone else. Most people in ques Are the pvp vets. This current buisness model keeps most if not all players turning theirs heads, distracted from really understanding PvP. (Space pvp, no one cares about ground)
One day this games pvp will be fun, but it starts with the player making the best out of what they have.
PvP should remain end game content though, a whole new pvp mechanic system where everyone starts it tier one ships is silly for Star Trek.
[/quote]
For pvp to be successful, it has to be available and competitive for everyone without vast differences in power. I totally respect and get why guys used to poor a ton of time and cash in this game. I can do that in spurts, but I'm not playing 2-4 a day. There is a huge chunk of this playerbase that is the same. I don't care about being the best, I just wanna have fun matches.
My pug team doesn't cross heal, neither does their's so no biggie. One of my tac teammates doesn't use tactical team, their sci is in a six hardpoint ship with no aux and all power to weapons. If The match is balanced by a system, we can still have fun. It's a game. The pvp immersion in this game is outstanding(I learn something new almost everytime I play) but there's got to be a place for guys who don't have the time or money, and a way to move on when they get it.
Endgame pvp is too fast for new guys. Too much to get the hang of. Baby steps. Build a population at the bottom and the competitive guys with resources will start making their way up. Entire games are based on this system, and you don't need major changes to pve (though I wish they would).[/quote]
Actually, I agree with that. The new guys shouldn't be thrown in it right away, there should be away to learn the basics before being placed with the well experienced.
Second... I respect you both. Both of you have a desire for a return to good pvp. One doesn't believe, which is more than fair... and frankly a very legitimate conclusion. The other is a super positive thinker; I believe that's a good thing too. Personally, I am more in line with Deo, but I just can't understand why this game abandons it's opportunities for fun pvp. If the Devs will offer some tools for the pvp community to regulate itself until (if ever...great possibility never) they "find" some time to help this community find solid footing, I really believe it will be ok.
I proposed this specifically for that (and added a lot of pve stuff to hopefully prevent another transfer).
http://www.arcgames.com/en/forums#/discussion/1194793/improve-the-gateway-and-improve-the-game
I think this is the baseline for a pvp community. There needs to be transparency for it to develop. There is so much TRIBBLE in game that may never get a dev balance pass, but if we're given the opportunity to do it, may develop a strong enough community that it will earn dev attention (earn is a very kind use).
I believe if we start VERY small, like at tier 1 and develop a community there, we can start building tiers on top of it. I believe most players would enjoy a pvp experience that isn't predicated on power creep and disparity. I think to be successful, we have to start very small and very low to pick up guys that figure " what the hell, I'll give it a go... not costing me hardly anything," and finally, a community that will finally stand up to the exploiting, newb pounding, newby insulting jack-asses that simply enjoy lording over other players because they have been here longer. Opvp sucks because of this. You can't be nice and helpful, see ya. The BS on that channel and in this forum is empowering morons, and driving away interest. The only reason I still care is because I'm a glutton.
None.
History has proven that no matter what we try, it will eventually fail because the devs keep chugging along with game-breaking powercreep with no concern for us. Any revival effort would be squashed by dev negligence long, long, before you earned any of their attention. Heck, even the dev-supported Bootcamp, which was back when PvP was alive and well, lost support because the devs just didn't care.
To my knowledge, Vanilla PvP was the last big, fully organized attempt. Let me tell you, it was hard enough to keep this community from tearing it down - do you think that you could hope to unite everyone left in an even more restrictive ruleset? I'm sorry, I'd love to see another effort succeed, but it just can't.
We won't get anywhere without dev support, which we haven't had for literally half a decade.
Patrick, you are quite right on a bunch of things, and I actually think it has to start smaller than that. I think you need at least 10 guys that would be willing to meet up once a week for low toon battles. Very vanilla. You can use c-store, and you can use the uni console that comes with the ship, but vanilla after that. Maybe every couple of weeks,you level it and go at a different tier. Everybody moves together. Get to fifty, play for a couple... Kill the toon... Back to one. If folks have any fun doing this, they might bring a friend or two.
On the positive, this would be very new guy friendly. On the uncertain... Would tier 1 pvp be any fun? It would most certainly be a lot slower. That's my concern. If it can be fun, this would work as long as enough folks showed up for a match. Will it survive? Who cares? Low investment in toons means nothing lost.
Speculating.