Well, lets be honest here: The pvp-community was never near as big as the dps-leauge.
Perhaps , perhaps not, but they did play a lot more with each other, as they were not segregated by random numbers from each other .
And failed horribly at preserving itself.
Let's talk in 3 years about that shall we ?
That's when the DPS thing will be as old as the PVP thing .
It might even be amusing to theorize how the DPS group would fare if they got no new maps in that 3 year period , to put them closer to the PVP experience ... .
For the DPS-League(s) this is just a set-back, but how many new recruits do you hope to find for the pvp-community in the next year?
Yeah, about that ... , the DPS channels have already emptied out the PSTF and ESTF channels , and there was one Redditor who claimed that there were less runs organised on Reddit chat because of the DPS channels .
While I can't speak for the latter, it was noted on The Show (if I'm not mistaken) , that the DPS channels population doubled since DR .
So the question becomes , with two parties that will be vying for an increasingly shrinking player base, where are they gonna get their next batch of players ?
Well, its not a new thing that pvp-players only see other faults (or "exploits") and not their own.
Heh, if anything , that is the definition of the two sides of the DPS debacle .
... not that I expect that to change anything , as despite claims to the concerns over the " welfare " of those 7500 who got kicked, this is, and will remain about the ppl who took that vote to split the DPS table ...
Why not just make a single player foundry mission and be done with it.
A good idea. Personally, I do like that other players can verify the parse under the current system. It may require a more robust parser to ensure that parses from single player missions aren't easily modified.
For example, if you've been following this discussion, you're likely aware that some of the DPS League admins parsed a queue on Tribble, then edited the parse to mask the presence of a drain build on the team.
"Tolerance and apathy are the last virtues of a dying society." - Aristotle
Let's talk in 3 years about that shall we ?
That's when the DPS thing will be as old as the PVP thing .
It might even be amusing to theorize how the DPS group would fare if they got no new maps in that 3 year period , to put them closer to the PVP experience ... .
We all know now that the game exists quite nicely without the PvP-Experience. What would happen if a company wouldnt add new PvE-maps for three years? I think that would greatly hurt metrics in regard of number of players.
The DPS-Crowd is part of a much bigger crowd in STO, like a neighbourhood near the centre of a large city, while the pvp-crowd is more like the reclusive village.
If the PvP-Community would have been more active -as are the dps-channels these days- they could have prevented their downfall by making their own rules. Unfortunately they choose to ignore that and just hoped the devs would help, greatly overestimating their influence they held in the game. You can blame the devs for your deteriorating community, but at the end of the day, they pvp-community just stood by and thus are to be equally blamed.
Not to mention, the DPS-Chans are 2 years old, and the DPS-Thing itself already began in the first half of 2012.
So the question becomes , with two parties that will be vying for an increasingly shrinking player base, where are they gonna get their next batch of players ?
Since you can join both communities without penalty, this wont be a problem. The problem itself is strictly speaking just between the both leaderships.
As for ESTF and PESTF, they were no better than pugging, thus they suffered the same fate. I cant speak for reddit though. But everyone would go were the quality is.
I think the problem with a heavily coordinated runs is that someone could get say 30k with only having a 10k ship and skill. This causes a problem when they then 30k channel pug. That individual wouldn't perform at a 30k level because they don't have that original team boosting their dps. As for keeping their records, I'm all for that, but I think they should have split the records into two sections: one for team effort dps and one for single effort dps because they are both inherantly different.
And I'm all for that, of course.
Problem just is, how do you then measure 'individual' DPS? As in, try and define it. Like 'The DPS you do in a randomly (dumb) team'? Is your channel qualification run disqualified every time there are signs the rest of your team knew what they were doing?!
I mean, it's easy to say 'A 10k player shouldn't be in a 30k channel.' And I'd be hard-pressed to find anyone disagreeing with that statement an sich. It's gets hard, though, when you actually try and define what a 'normal' run is, is my point.
It's gets hard, though, when you actually try and define what a 'normal' run is, is my point.
Indeed. Would a PUG with a recluse in it be considered a "team" run?
The issue of resetting the table should have been an easy decision; institute a seasonal approach based on STO season releases, and retire the current leaderboards with each new season. It's so obvious a solution that it should already have been implemented.
"Tolerance and apathy are the last virtues of a dying society." - Aristotle
Why not just make a single player foundry mission and be done with it.
No more arguing.
A player either has gear/build/skill or they don't.
A few months back I even opened a topic on the matter, asking Bort to give us access to a test-dummy mission (akin to what he's seen using in a vid himself, actually), which would be ideally suited for individual parsing. It went nowhere, as usual. :P
I think these guys are completely clueless after listening to this recording. While yes they now how to ramp up some DPS they have no idea how to run anything. There is a way to fix what they are talking about but it is not even a issue. If recluses are an issue so is "Going Down Fighting" and Romulan "Superior Romulan Operative trait".
So it is unfair for a captain to pilot a Recluse but is oay to use GDF? It is unfair for a captain to have 12% more crith than another faction?
They need to make 3 tabs.
Best solo DPS: The title is misleading. This is a measure of one players true DPS. This is how a player is invited to the channels. This channel has to have numerous rules. First one being one is only one recluse that way you don't punish the player that wants to play in a Recluse. Rule two player can not take any warpcore damage to artificially trigger GDF. If player crith can not reach over 40%. Using these rules will get you invited to one of the numeric channels.
Best Team DPS: This table really is fr premade runs and has no limit on ships and abilities used. The whole point of this is to see how much DPS one team can produce. They can do ether by buffing one or two main players or all players performing well. The way you do this is add up entire team DPS divide by 5. This set your record to a team average. Set a few channels for this tab.
Theory DPS: This is the no holds barred of DPS channels. People trying to push one single players numbers up to insane numbers. ALL game mechanics can and should be used.
Hands down DPS for the invite channels should no be artificially buffed by few controlled meassure as possible.
I'm pretty sure a decent recluse nanny will contribute substantially more then GDF or SRO ever could.
If the league is going to pick on major factors of inflating numbers lets go after them all! I understand the argument, but they are not looking at other issues. Well at least it was not mentioned in the sound bite. All i am saying is level the playing field. Part of the problem these guys have is they are all top end contenders and all have a say and no low end players have a voice.
So, the goal is to get your name on the DPS chart? Preferably at the top? Yet, in many cases, it is a team effort to get to the top? The single name seems misleading to me. Why don't the other members of the team get credit? That seems the most unfair to me.
But then, I equip Tethered Quantum Mines, so I probably don't know what I am talking about.
It's worth making a distinction between what you're bringing yourself and what someone else is, effectively, bringing for you.
I agree with this as long as everyone is on a even playing field. Class and faction should have nothing to do with numbers on the leader board. Right now Romulans can have up to 12% more damage critical hitting than other two factions and tactical captains can inflate numbers with an artificial proc using a warp core explosion to trigger going down fighting. I am not saying a tactical captain can't use it, just don't internally do so.
It was a few years back when the PvP community at large turned on each other in what was a war based 10% on personality and 90% on a terribly broken game.
The junk development of this game led to fights over everything in PvP. The balance has been terrible for years.
Now it seems PvE land is finally waking up to the fact that this game is beyond broken. Some of the mechanic issues are indeed bugs, or unintended issues (9 out of 10 bugs are a result of Cryptic not really understanding their own game) The unpleasant truth is most of the issue is simply poor design. Their model is built to sell power creep. In order to keep that whirring along, they need to release things fast. Even if they wanted to balance things they couldn't possibly at the pace of releases. Which leads to second unpleasant truth, they do not want to balance anything. To Captain Geko things should be unbalanced on purpose, so that people can feel special when they find some magik combo of gear/skills/doffs/boffs/traits ect that gives them some edge.
The issue is this game isn't really that hard to figure out. Anyone with a brain and a willingness to test junk for a few hours will find more then enough exploitable bad mechanics and or bugs. Geko is happy they feel special and is glad to sell tons of the traits or consoles or weapon types or anything else they find. That is until everyone buys one... then they ride in claim it had some Unintended effect ect fix it... and the cycle continues.
The PvP community figured this out a few years ago and for the most part those people are all been gone... or in reality mode (playing but not spending) for a long time now.
So perhaps now the larger PvE community is at last at a point where they can admit the truth. Gaming this game is not a challenge in anyway. By all means stick around and play if you are having FUN... blow up the bad guys, RP some Trek. Just don't take it so serious, and skip the majority of Cryptics Desperation sales. The pace the release new things, that are always better then the old stuff is sad, jump off the train. Let them spin the wheels for a few months and hope your purses are more important to them then the PvPers purses where.
First off, as a guy who's gotten his invites to DPS-10k and Bronze via flying my Recluse, I can attest to how this particular ship can and will boost DPS numbers...
However, let me spell out in much more clearer terms, what the argument in Channel-land here is falling around:
What the PvP crowd specifically called "force multipliers"...
SRO and GDF aren't force multipliers. A squad of 4x SRO-laden Scimitars aren't going to push a 9k Pathfinder up to the 20k or 30k levels. These abilities only affect the captain/ship using them...
On the other hand, what makes "force multipliers" so dangerous is how they boost the DPS of the rest of the team, and why they were frequently whined about (or desired) in PvP-land. To wit:
Team of 4x Disruptor laden ships dropping the resists on target(s) so that one crit-laden AP user can score massive damage numbers? Upward of 20 copies of AP-B III from the squad of elite mesh weavers on top of those disruptors? Can we say -300 or -400 resist and quadruple damage? Sensor analysis, sensor scan, FoMM, Viral Matrix, Energy Syphons, AP-D on the "alpha tank" etc. etc. all dropping the resists of the target and/or increasing the damage that all captains in the engagement do? Now we're looking at possibly 5x, 6x, over 17x damage per hit?
And combined in this manner solely to make one player's set of numbers "shine"?
As an "outsider looking in" on the PvP arguments around this subject, I saw a few times where someone compained "power x us UP" and the devs retort "but 5x copies of power X at any level higher than this is OP, and we need to balance against this."
Yes, PvP seemed to be balanced around 5 on 1 "gankings", not 1 on 1 combat(s)... Especially these "power multiplier" abilities (we have to be on the lookout for what happens when some team spams 5 of these on a glass cannon, the cannon needs a chance to survive this, not "be down one man and the opponent being so weak from focusing so much collective power on this single target that they get steamrolled in the resulting 4 on 5")...
Still, they haven't quite mastered the balance of force multipliers, and as such, they keep worrying about the very situation that led to these 200k "enhanced" runs... Watch the force multipliers get nerfed into oblivion, again.
Detecting big-time "anti-old-school" bias here. NX? Lobi. TOS/TMP Connie? Super-promotion-box. (aka the two hardest ways to get ships) Excelsior & all 3 TNG "big hero" ships? C-Store. Please Equalize...
To rob a line: [quote: Mariemaia Kushrenada] Forum Posting is much like an endless waltz. The three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever. However, opinions will change upon the reading of my post.[/quote]
stop the debate cold do away with private or premade teams make everybody PUG. and not allow teams of more than 2 people. unless the que is empty. even if its only for a few months to get people used to playing with each other again. and stop worrying about all the BS.
Trophies for killing FEDS ahh those were the days.
and tactical captains can inflate numbers with an artificial proc using a warp core explosion to trigger going down fighting.
At least this requires some sembalance of skill in terms of timing and avoiding death. Top level players may make it look easy, but that's only with practice.
Four supporting recluses, on the other hand, requires much less skill or practice, and can dramatically increase DPS. The number I've heard kicked around by high DPS players is ~20%, though it's much more impressive in its raw form, something like 40-50k DPS, though I have no idea just how accurate that is, and I suspect it's a highly conservative estimate. I've also heard discussion suggesting that without nanny support, 100k would be difficult to achieve; compare that to parses which break 150, 160, 170k DPS, and nanny support may be good for something like a 50-75% DPS boost.
"Tolerance and apathy are the last virtues of a dying society." - Aristotle
Yep, regular pugging is the only way to determine real DPS. What you can consistently bring to the fight in any situation is all that matters. I'd take a 30k pug build over any 150k max deeps, tweak every variable player any day of the week. However, kudos to those that can figure out how to max deeps and show off that epeen. Those people deserve respect for rigging every variable in their favor to achieve such numbers.
I'm really disappointed by the egos in this whole situation... I've left both leagues and removed CLR from my computer. And I'll suggest everyone I know does the same.
I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
All the more reason a Kazon Argala or Japori should be the testing grounds. Single action and let the pilot show off what he can do. Anyways true does is measures over time not a 2 minute run where GDF and recluse span is king. I would love to see these 50k runner hold it for 10 minutes. All of my 30k runs have been pugs with ten minute matches.
Yes, I'm that Askray@Batbayer in game. Yes, I still play. No, I don't care. Former Community Moderator, Former SSR DJ, Now Full time father to two kids, Husband, Retail Worker. Tiktok: @Askray Facebook: Askray113
Comments
Why not just make a single player foundry mission and be done with it.
No more arguing.
A player either has gear/build/skill or they don't.
...#LLAP...
Perhaps , perhaps not, but they did play a lot more with each other, as they were not segregated by random numbers from each other .
Let's talk in 3 years about that shall we ?
That's when the DPS thing will be as old as the PVP thing .
It might even be amusing to theorize how the DPS group would fare if they got no new maps in that 3 year period , to put them closer to the PVP experience ... .
Yeah, about that ... , the DPS channels have already emptied out the PSTF and ESTF channels , and there was one Redditor who claimed that there were less runs organised on Reddit chat because of the DPS channels .
While I can't speak for the latter, it was noted on The Show (if I'm not mistaken) , that the DPS channels population doubled since DR .
So the question becomes , with two parties that will be vying for an increasingly shrinking player base, where are they gonna get their next batch of players ?
Heh, if anything , that is the definition of the two sides of the DPS debacle .
... not that I expect that to change anything , as despite claims to the concerns over the " welfare " of those 7500 who got kicked, this is, and will remain about the ppl who took that vote to split the DPS table ...
For example, if you've been following this discussion, you're likely aware that some of the DPS League admins parsed a queue on Tribble, then edited the parse to mask the presence of a drain build on the team.
We all know now that the game exists quite nicely without the PvP-Experience. What would happen if a company wouldnt add new PvE-maps for three years? I think that would greatly hurt metrics in regard of number of players.
The DPS-Crowd is part of a much bigger crowd in STO, like a neighbourhood near the centre of a large city, while the pvp-crowd is more like the reclusive village.
If the PvP-Community would have been more active -as are the dps-channels these days- they could have prevented their downfall by making their own rules. Unfortunately they choose to ignore that and just hoped the devs would help, greatly overestimating their influence they held in the game. You can blame the devs for your deteriorating community, but at the end of the day, they pvp-community just stood by and thus are to be equally blamed.
Not to mention, the DPS-Chans are 2 years old, and the DPS-Thing itself already began in the first half of 2012.
Since you can join both communities without penalty, this wont be a problem. The problem itself is strictly speaking just between the both leaderships.
As for ESTF and PESTF, they were no better than pugging, thus they suffered the same fate. I cant speak for reddit though. But everyone would go were the quality is.
And I'm all for that, of course.
Problem just is, how do you then measure 'individual' DPS? As in, try and define it. Like 'The DPS you do in a randomly (dumb) team'? Is your channel qualification run disqualified every time there are signs the rest of your team knew what they were doing?!
I mean, it's easy to say 'A 10k player shouldn't be in a 30k channel.' And I'd be hard-pressed to find anyone disagreeing with that statement an sich. It's gets hard, though, when you actually try and define what a 'normal' run is, is my point.
The issue of resetting the table should have been an easy decision; institute a seasonal approach based on STO season releases, and retire the current leaderboards with each new season. It's so obvious a solution that it should already have been implemented.
A few months back I even opened a topic on the matter, asking Bort to give us access to a test-dummy mission (akin to what he's seen using in a vid himself, actually), which would be ideally suited for individual parsing. It went nowhere, as usual. :P
A single-person Foundry mission could work too.
So it is unfair for a captain to pilot a Recluse but is oay to use GDF? It is unfair for a captain to have 12% more crith than another faction?
They need to make 3 tabs.
Best solo DPS: The title is misleading. This is a measure of one players true DPS. This is how a player is invited to the channels. This channel has to have numerous rules. First one being one is only one recluse that way you don't punish the player that wants to play in a Recluse. Rule two player can not take any warpcore damage to artificially trigger GDF. If player crith can not reach over 40%. Using these rules will get you invited to one of the numeric channels.
Best Team DPS: This table really is fr premade runs and has no limit on ships and abilities used. The whole point of this is to see how much DPS one team can produce. They can do ether by buffing one or two main players or all players performing well. The way you do this is add up entire team DPS divide by 5. This set your record to a team average. Set a few channels for this tab.
Theory DPS: This is the no holds barred of DPS channels. People trying to push one single players numbers up to insane numbers. ALL game mechanics can and should be used.
Hands down DPS for the invite channels should no be artificially buffed by few controlled meassure as possible.
If the league is going to pick on major factors of inflating numbers lets go after them all! I understand the argument, but they are not looking at other issues. Well at least it was not mentioned in the sound bite. All i am saying is level the playing field. Part of the problem these guys have is they are all top end contenders and all have a say and no low end players have a voice.
All I have to say is: Why should anyone care about some dudes sitting around having slap fights about whose e-peen is larger?
Guys, seriously, grow up. This is so amazingly stupid I can barely believe anyone with a functional brain even gives a TRIBBLE.
It's pretty much this hard to keep just one timeline intact. ♪
But then, I equip Tethered Quantum Mines, so I probably don't know what I am talking about.
I agree with this as long as everyone is on a even playing field. Class and faction should have nothing to do with numbers on the leader board. Right now Romulans can have up to 12% more damage critical hitting than other two factions and tactical captains can inflate numbers with an artificial proc using a warp core explosion to trigger going down fighting. I am not saying a tactical captain can't use it, just don't internally do so.
It was a few years back when the PvP community at large turned on each other in what was a war based 10% on personality and 90% on a terribly broken game.
The junk development of this game led to fights over everything in PvP. The balance has been terrible for years.
Now it seems PvE land is finally waking up to the fact that this game is beyond broken. Some of the mechanic issues are indeed bugs, or unintended issues (9 out of 10 bugs are a result of Cryptic not really understanding their own game) The unpleasant truth is most of the issue is simply poor design. Their model is built to sell power creep. In order to keep that whirring along, they need to release things fast. Even if they wanted to balance things they couldn't possibly at the pace of releases. Which leads to second unpleasant truth, they do not want to balance anything. To Captain Geko things should be unbalanced on purpose, so that people can feel special when they find some magik combo of gear/skills/doffs/boffs/traits ect that gives them some edge.
The issue is this game isn't really that hard to figure out. Anyone with a brain and a willingness to test junk for a few hours will find more then enough exploitable bad mechanics and or bugs. Geko is happy they feel special and is glad to sell tons of the traits or consoles or weapon types or anything else they find. That is until everyone buys one... then they ride in claim it had some Unintended effect ect fix it... and the cycle continues.
The PvP community figured this out a few years ago and for the most part those people are all been gone... or in reality mode (playing but not spending) for a long time now.
So perhaps now the larger PvE community is at last at a point where they can admit the truth. Gaming this game is not a challenge in anyway. By all means stick around and play if you are having FUN... blow up the bad guys, RP some Trek. Just don't take it so serious, and skip the majority of Cryptics Desperation sales. The pace the release new things, that are always better then the old stuff is sad, jump off the train. Let them spin the wheels for a few months and hope your purses are more important to them then the PvPers purses where.
However, let me spell out in much more clearer terms, what the argument in Channel-land here is falling around:
What the PvP crowd specifically called "force multipliers"...
SRO and GDF aren't force multipliers. A squad of 4x SRO-laden Scimitars aren't going to push a 9k Pathfinder up to the 20k or 30k levels. These abilities only affect the captain/ship using them...
On the other hand, what makes "force multipliers" so dangerous is how they boost the DPS of the rest of the team, and why they were frequently whined about (or desired) in PvP-land. To wit:
Team of 4x Disruptor laden ships dropping the resists on target(s) so that one crit-laden AP user can score massive damage numbers? Upward of 20 copies of AP-B III from the squad of elite mesh weavers on top of those disruptors? Can we say -300 or -400 resist and quadruple damage? Sensor analysis, sensor scan, FoMM, Viral Matrix, Energy Syphons, AP-D on the "alpha tank" etc. etc. all dropping the resists of the target and/or increasing the damage that all captains in the engagement do? Now we're looking at possibly 5x, 6x, over 17x damage per hit?
And combined in this manner solely to make one player's set of numbers "shine"?
As an "outsider looking in" on the PvP arguments around this subject, I saw a few times where someone compained "power x us UP" and the devs retort "but 5x copies of power X at any level higher than this is OP, and we need to balance against this."
Yes, PvP seemed to be balanced around 5 on 1 "gankings", not 1 on 1 combat(s)... Especially these "power multiplier" abilities (we have to be on the lookout for what happens when some team spams 5 of these on a glass cannon, the cannon needs a chance to survive this, not "be down one man and the opponent being so weak from focusing so much collective power on this single target that they get steamrolled in the resulting 4 on 5")...
Still, they haven't quite mastered the balance of force multipliers, and as such, they keep worrying about the very situation that led to these 200k "enhanced" runs... Watch the force multipliers get nerfed into oblivion, again.
To rob a line: [quote: Mariemaia Kushrenada] Forum Posting is much like an endless waltz. The three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever. However, opinions will change upon the reading of my post.[/quote]
At least this requires some sembalance of skill in terms of timing and avoiding death. Top level players may make it look easy, but that's only with practice.
Four supporting recluses, on the other hand, requires much less skill or practice, and can dramatically increase DPS. The number I've heard kicked around by high DPS players is ~20%, though it's much more impressive in its raw form, something like 40-50k DPS, though I have no idea just how accurate that is, and I suspect it's a highly conservative estimate. I've also heard discussion suggesting that without nanny support, 100k would be difficult to achieve; compare that to parses which break 150, 160, 170k DPS, and nanny support may be good for something like a 50-75% DPS boost.
I'm really disappointed by the egos in this whole situation... I've left both leagues and removed CLR from my computer. And I'll suggest everyone I know does the same.
I think I did....
Former Community Moderator, Former SSR DJ, Now Full time father to two kids, Husband, Retail Worker.
Tiktok: @Askray Facebook: Askray113