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Keybinders vs Non Keybinders

taylor1701dtaylor1701d Member Posts: 3,099 Arc User
Just how much does Keybinding boost a players DPS scores ?
10 - 20 - 30% ? More ?
I'm going to guess at least 25% increase.

Is there a non Keybind DPS channel ? (There should be if not)

Are keybinds cheating ?
Shouldn't a captain use his/her Boff abilities "as needed" rather then keybinding every skill/ability to 1,2 or 3 buttons, or all to spacebar ?

I understand the appeal, but we re not robots here...did you ever see any trek captain call out every attack pattern and defensive manouever all within the time it takes to hit 1 or 2 buttons ?
Maybe DATA could be an exception, but then why would he need a crew, if a ship could be fully automated for him.
Post edited by taylor1701d on
[img][/img]OD5urLn.jpg

Comments

  • lindalefflindaleff Member Posts: 3,734 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    There are those of us, like me, who have NO knowledge of technology, much less coding. And I can tell you for a fact that even without fancy things like keybinds, you will do perfectly good.
    I completed a 2-man CSE, ISE, and KASE, Optionals included. And I soloed Winter Invasion.
    My Ship Builds: USS Conqueror, HMS Victorious, HMS Concord, ISS Queen Elizabeth, Black Widow III
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  • thisslerthissler Member Posts: 2,055 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    Just how much does Keybinding boost a players DPS scores ?
    10 - 20 - 30% ? More ?
    I'm going to guess at least 25% increase.

    Is there a non Keybind DPS channel ? (There should be if not)

    Are keybinds cheating ?
    Shouldn't a captain use his/her Boff abilities "as needed" rather then keybinding every skill/ability to 1,2 or 3 buttons, or all to spacebar ?

    I understand the appeal, but we re not robots here...did you ever see any trek captain call out every attack pattern and defensive manouever all within the time it takes to hit 1 or 2 buttons ?
    Maybe DATA could be an exception, but then why would he need a crew, if a ship could be fully automated for him.

    I think you mean macro. Or maybe not. But if not, I'm not sure that the difference between pressing 4 keys in a row or selecting them with a mouse is something you'd notice on a practiced player. Given the limits of this UI.

    You can actually lose DPS with a macro though. Or get yourself killed. The smaller and more discrete your macros, the better off you are. Otherwise trouble. Same thing with simply using some type of Autokey. It can get you in trouble as often as it helps you. A good macro system takes a bit of work to set up and implement.

    But, in any case, you should macro. Autokey [program or a gaming keyboard if that's what it is called], I leave that choice up to you.

    My take on the Macro thing.

    That's an early one. The specifics have evolved since that time as I'm using different ships.

    EDIT: And there's a link in there to the excellent keybind tool made by FES. It's all GUI so anyone can use it.

    Peace.
  • demonicaestheticdemonicaesthetic Member Posts: 3 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    There was a thread I replied to about ground combat difficulties, the op had one of these many to one keybinds, everything in tray 7 to the spacebar, that are so popular.

    They were having problems doing enough damage to avoid an afk penalty, and not getting killed.

    Problem with these spacebar mash things is that you can spent more time standing around playing tricorder tetris, summoning all your buffs in sequence, that there's no time left to ACTUALLY FIGHT, before the bad guys kill your TRIBBLE dead.

    In addition, all that tricorder tetris leaves you standing still, like a sitting duck, unless you crouch, then you get one shotted in melee.

    In PvP, I suspect novice spacebar mashers will telegraph their intentions a lot. See purple triangles over their char, thats power 46, from observation you know next button mash will trigger pink ray of instant short range death (power 102), so you back off and let them waste it, then close in for the kill, during green spheres of not much use (power 17).

    I cannot imagine any rational reason for converting a keyboard into either a 1 button atari 2600 console joystick from the 1980's (push the single red button), or into a cheap playstation 1 controller from the early 1990's (triangle to attack square to defend).

    Under ideal conditions, with a copy/pasta keybind/build from the dps-101 forum, yeah it might give you a modest advantage in terms of dps, but that doesn't mean it's actually something you must use anywhere else.
    <center><font size="+5"><b>Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day...
    Set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life...</b></size></center>
  • thisslerthissler Member Posts: 2,055 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    skollulfr wrote: »

    macro's / keybinds are a player created way to avoid using/mitigate the effects of shoddy rpg gui's

    eg, if your ship has multiple heals, is its easier to;

    a) click one icon for each with your mouse.
    b) press several keys, one for each heal.
    c) press one key, which will sequentially activates available heals.

    And STO supports this.

    And thematically what makes more sense for you as a RP Captain?

    You give an order to go to Red Alert and all your Officers spring to action and start issuing their commands?

    Or you give an order to go to Red Alert and you...

    ...order the Conn Officer to increase speed.
    ...get a hold of someone in Engineering and have them put some power into weapons.
    ...find someone with a torpedo, and have them load it in the proper tube.
    ...get a hold of whoever has their fingers on the Phaser Button. Have them fire it.
    ...Have them fire it again.
    ...Have them fire it again.
    ...Have them fire it again.

    But really, Having played PVP with some measure of success without any type of key bind at all as well as PVE without any type of key bind at all I can say with all sincerity that everyone can benefit from some level of key binds or macro.

    It's a GUI issue, it isn't a person issue. So don't make it about people. We love people.:P
  • taylor1701dtaylor1701d Member Posts: 3,099 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    There was a thread I replied to about ground combat difficulties, the op had one of these many to one keybinds, everything in tray 7 to the spacebar, that are so popular.

    They were having problems doing enough damage to avoid an afk penalty, and not getting killed.

    Problem with these spacebar mash things is that you can spent more time standing around playing tricorder tetris, summoning all your buffs in sequence, that there's no time left to ACTUALLY FIGHT, before the bad guys kill your TRIBBLE dead.

    In addition, all that tricorder tetris leaves you standing still, like a sitting duck, unless you crouch, then you get one shotted in melee.

    In PvP, I suspect novice spacebar mashers will telegraph their intentions a lot. See purple triangles over their char, thats power 46, from observation you know next button mash will trigger pink ray of instant short range death (power 102), so you back off and let them waste it, then close in for the kill, during green spheres of not much use (power 17).

    I cannot imagine any rational reason for converting a keyboard into either a 1 button atari 2600 console joystick from the 1980's (push the single red button), or into a cheap playstation 1 controller from the early 1990's (triangle to attack square to defend).

    Under ideal conditions, with a copy/pasta keybind/build from the dps-101 forum, yeah it might give you a modest advantage in terms of dps, but that doesn't mean it's actually something you must use anywhere else.

    Interesting, I guess that's why I keep hearing people say, it takes some time to refine keybinds into a useful advantage.
    I could imagine my sci on ground... Casting debuffs for a good 10secs, while everyone else is smashing enemies.
    Hadn't considered that aspect
    So it seems there is some serious pitfalls to avoid if keybinding..
    [img][/img]OD5urLn.jpg
  • taylor1701dtaylor1701d Member Posts: 3,099 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    thissler wrote: »
    And STO supports this.

    And thematically what makes more sense for you as a RP Captain?

    You give an order to go to Red Alert and all your Officers spring to action and start issuing their commands?

    Or you give an order to go to Red Alert and you...

    ...order the Conn Officer to increase speed.
    ...get a hold of someone in Engineering and have them put some power into weapons.
    ...find someone with a torpedo, and have them load it in the proper tube.
    ...get a hold of whoever has their fingers on the Phaser Button. Have them fire it.
    ...Have them fire it again.
    ...Have them fire it again.
    ...Have them fire it again.

    But really, Having played PVP with some measure of success without any type of key bind at all as well as PVE without any type of key bind at all I can say with all sincerity that everyone can benefit from some level of key binds or macro.

    It's a GUI issue, it isn't a person issue. So don't make it about people. We love people.:P

    First of all I salute you.
    It takes some level of organization and hand eye skill to run without keybinds. It also takes a well organized tray, and knowledge of what skills to use first. (Suppose the same could be said for a proper set of keybinds)

    To answer the question you pose.
    I'd go to red alert, and have all hand fire at will, perhaps only firing torps on command.
    For patterns and defense, that would be at my discretion as well.

    But phaser ops could have at it. Weapons free basically.
    [img][/img]OD5urLn.jpg
  • demonicaestheticdemonicaesthetic Member Posts: 3 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    Interesting, I guess that's why I keep hearing people say, it takes some time to refine keybinds into a useful advantage.
    I could imagine my sci on ground... Casting debuffs for a good 10secs, while everyone else is smashing enemies.
    Hadn't considered that aspect
    So it seems there is some serious pitfalls to avoid if keybinding..

    when my sci toon goes hunting for lizard skin handbags in the dyson zone, she takes exothermic induction, a plusewave, and a full auto rifle...

    'keybinds' used most often?

    1 - fire gun
    2 - fire gun harder
    3 - See you vothy, take a face full of gunstock
    4 - Burn baby burn, lizard inferno!
    z - swap guns
    x - aim gun

    0 - resurrect split beam using tricorder tetris players
    <center><font size="+5"><b>Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day...
    Set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life...</b></size></center>
  • taylor1701dtaylor1701d Member Posts: 3,099 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    when my sci toon goes hunting for lizard skin handbags in the dyson zone, she takes exothermic induction, a plusewave, and a full auto rifle...

    'keybinds' used most often?

    1 - fire gun
    2 - fire gun harder
    3 - See you vothy, take a face full of gunstock
    4 - Burn baby burn, lizard inferno!
    z - swap guns
    x - aim gun

    0 - resurrect split beam using tricorder tetris players



    Got any extra lizard pelts ?
    My toon needs a lizard skin bikini for risa :)
    [img][/img]OD5urLn.jpg
  • demonicaestheticdemonicaesthetic Member Posts: 3 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    Got any extra lizard pelts ?
    My toon needs a lizard skin bikini for risa :)

    All my female boffs have thigh boots with their combat catsuits... All out of lizard pelts... :P
    <center><font size="+5"><b>Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day...
    Set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life...</b></size></center>
  • ryakidrysryakidrys Member Posts: 830 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    Just how much does Keybinding boost a players DPS scores ?
    10 - 20 - 30% ? More ?
    I'm going to guess at least 25% increase.

    Is there a non Keybind DPS channel ? (There should be if not)

    Are keybinds cheating ?
    Shouldn't a captain use his/her Boff abilities "as needed" rather then keybinding every skill/ability to 1,2 or 3 buttons, or all to spacebar ?

    I understand the appeal, but we re not robots here...did you ever see any trek captain call out every attack pattern and defensive manouever all within the time it takes to hit 1 or 2 buttons ?
    Maybe DATA could be an exception, but then why would he need a crew, if a ship could be fully automated for him.

    Are keybinds cheating ? No, the keybinding system is built into the game, the developers wanted you to be able to use it. It even prevents you from pressing a single button and activate several things at once. You must press again to activate another item. There is also a small time-out with which button presses are ignored, so no rapid fire of abilities either.

    Shouldn't a captain use his/her Boff abilities "as needed" EPTx abilities, for one, also add boosts that are beneficial to have up before needed, such as EPTS having a damage resistance boost to shields and A2SIF adding a damage resist to hull. Using something that adds a resist before taking damage can drastically reduce the damage taken and the need for heals. Using an ability after the fact can be too late to get the greatest benefit from it.

    rather then keybinding every skill/ability to 1,2 or 3 buttons, or all to spacebar ? Keybinding is an individual preference. Binding everything to a single key, like the spacebar, can easily reduce performance. Using certain keys to do several smaller number of things, can be helpful. Shield heals on one key, hull heals on another. Not just keyboard keys either, you can bind things to mouse buttons, something I find handy on 4+ button mice.

    I personally use keybinding on all my ships, but I use a mouse with 6 thumb buttons and have bound each one of them as well as several keyboard keys to a different tray to achieve the desired effects. Heals in tray X that are assigned to a certain mouse button, attack buffs on tray Z assigned to different mouse button, etc., etc.
    All in all, it's real easy to mess up with keybinds and get horrible performance. Done well, it can help you keep your head up and not missing things you would miss when you'd have to look down to find this key or that key on the keyboard. It can be a PC version of HOTAS that fighter pilots have had for many years.
  • thisslerthissler Member Posts: 2,055 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    First of all I salute you.
    It takes some level of organization and hand eye skill to run without keybinds. It also takes a well organized tray, and knowledge of what skills to use first. (Suppose the same could be said for a proper set of keybinds)

    To answer the question you pose.
    I'd go to red alert, and have all hand fire at will, perhaps only firing torps on command.
    For patterns and defense, that would be at my discretion as well.

    But phaser ops could have at it. Weapons free basically.

    Some of my earliest videos were, by request, how I set up my ability tray. And pretty simply I grouped all the things I used together, together.

    And the same would go for binds sure.

    And just as much for using a macro. Maybe you followed the link I gave, maybe you didn't. But there's a couple of Macro posts on there.

    Essentially even with a Macro, if you set it up sensibly and use it as you designed it it can do wonderful things.

    All at your discretion.

    Press it once it distributes shields.
    Press it twice and it uses Science Team.
    Press it three times and it uses an Aux Battery.
    Press it a fourth time and it uses Transfer Shield Strength.

    So that's the strength of a Macro over a simple key bind or clicking. You KNOW what order to use abilities in. You prioritize them and put them all in one place. This makes it physically easier to operate the game. It doesn't make a person make smart choices.

    And weapons fire....isn't what it used to be.
  • thisslerthissler Member Posts: 2,055 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    [QUOTE=skollulfr;24158111]edit; ^ isnt TSS aux power dependant?

    the rpg genre would be dead if keybinding wasnt allowed.
    the requirment to press multiple times is an anti automation system to prevent you hitting one key and farming mobs while afk
    delay during activation was basically the same. adopt to mess with automation systems that at the time only accounted for the abilities cd timer.

    as it is now, rpg hosts got a lot smarter with detecting automation of gameplay since macro's can be programmed externally.

    heck, i can create them on my keyboard just by hitting one button, typing, then hitting the button again.[/QUOTE]
    Don't Aux Batteries give Aux power?

    But yes. Yes it is Aux dependent.
  • taylor1701dtaylor1701d Member Posts: 3,099 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    thissler wrote: »

    Oh yeah just opened up that link, thanks that looks really helpful.
    Will give it a good read tonight.

    And yeah, it was macros I was refering to. Not keybinds.
    You learn something new everyday.

    Think I'm going to try out a few simple macro combos, see what kind of results I get. That link seems to suggest its pretty helpful if done proper.
    Also i've been curious about it for a longtime now.
    My fleetmate has been trying to get me to try em out for a while now.

    Ive been stubborn to changing gameplay methods I guess.
    [img][/img]OD5urLn.jpg
  • thisslerthissler Member Posts: 2,055 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    Oh yeah just opened up that link, thanks that looks really helpful.
    Will give it a good read tonight.

    And yeah, it was macros I was refering to. Not keybinds.
    You learn something new everyday.

    Think I'm going to try out a few simple macro combos, see what kind of results I get. That link seems to suggest its pretty helpful if done proper.
    Also i've been curious about it for a longtime now.
    My fleetmate has been trying to get me to try em out for a while now.

    Ive been stubborn to changing gameplay methods I guess.

    Take your time with change and enjoy it.

    There's a wide range of what you can do by putting just a few binds or macros onto your keyboard.

    And really they are just a means to facilitate executions of actions you KNOW you want to take.

    I have a mix of things that I macro, bind, or simply still just click when I need to.

    Peace:)
  • e30erneste30ernest Member Posts: 1,794 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    I personally don't use macros. I'm sure there is a benefit, but I enjoy doing things manually. Besides, my flying style and build doesnt need to regularly cycle through abilities in sequence except maybe when I am preparing a torpedo volley.
  • darkjeffdarkjeff Member Posts: 2,590 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    I think Macros are cheating.

    I think Keybinds are perfectly fine. If they had auto-firing abilities (fire whenever off cooldown, not exactly a new thing for MMOs) then a lot of what I keybind would become unnecessary.

    (It also seems a lot of people don't know the difference between a macro and a keybind. A macro is where you press one key to send multiple commands. A keybind is not. The former is not supported by STO and requires using third person applications which violate the ToS, the latter is built into STO.)
  • crusty8maccrusty8mac Member Posts: 1,370 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    I don't know if it boosts my dps any, but it does reduce my carpal tunnel risk.
    __________________________________
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  • demonicaestheticdemonicaesthetic Member Posts: 3 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    crusty8mac wrote: »
    I don't know if it boosts my dps any, but it does reduce my carpal tunnel risk.

    Actually... repeatedly mashing the space bar with 1 finger rather than pressing different keys with different fingers as needed INCREASES your risk of carpal tunnel syndrome (in your keybind finger).

    REPETITIVE strain injury.
    <center><font size="+5"><b>Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day...
    Set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life...</b></size></center>
  • thisslerthissler Member Posts: 2,055 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    darkjeff wrote: »
    I think Macros are cheating.

    I think Keybinds are perfectly fine. If they had auto-firing abilities (fire whenever off cooldown, not exactly a new thing for MMOs) then a lot of what I keybind would become unnecessary.

    (It also seems a lot of people don't know the difference between a macro and a keybind. A macro is where you press one key to send multiple commands. A keybind is not. The former is not supported by STO and requires using third person applications which violate the ToS, the latter is built into STO.)

    That is absolutely false, and you need to stop spreading that information.

    A macro key simply takes and maps any number of commands to one key.
    Each time the key is pressed it attempts to execute the next available command.
    Not all the commands.
    Not three of the commands.
    Not any number of commands that isn't ONE.
    One command. Per Key Press. Like any other key bind.

    It is built entirely using the code that STO has implemented in the game.

    Entirely.

    I'll assume you're not intentionally spreading misinformation, but now you know better, so stop.


    EDIT: There ARE scripts out there that you can RUN in the background that can do really sketchy things. Those aren't macros. Within the confines of STO, macros that are created using the STO bind file system as well as using gaming keyboards or a mouse is absolutely supported by STO. Keep some clarity here so that people can evaluate the facts and not hearsay.
  • demonicaestheticdemonicaesthetic Member Posts: 3 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    thissler wrote: »
    That is absolutely false, and you need to stop spreading that information.

    A macro key simply takes and maps any number of commands to one key.
    Each time the key is pressed it attempts to execute the next available command.
    Not all the commands.
    Not three of the commands.
    Not any number of commands that isn't ONE.
    One command. Per Key Press. Like any other key bind.

    It is built entirely using the code that STO has implemented in the game.

    Entirely.

    I'll assume you're not intentionally spreading misinformation, but now you know better, so stop.

    That is not a 'macro'.

    A macro is traditionally, either 1 press does many tasks, or 1 press starts a conditional chain of tasks.

    What you refer to as a macro, the in-game supported version, is in fact a many-2-one keybind, that uses the systems mechanic of switching the command activated to the next in the bind list if the previous entries are on cooldown.

    His point was...

    many-2-one keybinds using the in-game mechanics - not cheating
    macros using 3rd party software - cheating
    <center><font size="+5"><b>Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day...
    Set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life...</b></size></center>
  • darkjeffdarkjeff Member Posts: 2,590 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    That is not a 'macro'.

    A macro is traditionally, either 1 press does many tasks, or 1 press starts a conditional chain of tasks.

    What you refer to as a macro, the in-game supported version, is in fact a many-2-one keybind, that uses the systems mechanic of switching the command activated to the next in the bind list if the previous entries are on cooldown.

    His point was...

    many-2-one keybinds using the in-game mechanics - not cheating
    macros using 3rd party software - cheating

    Exactly this.
  • thisslerthissler Member Posts: 2,055 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    That is not a 'macro'.

    A macro is traditionally, either 1 press does many tasks, or 1 press starts a conditional chain of tasks.

    What you refer to as a macro, the in-game supported version, is in fact a many-2-one keybind, that uses the systems mechanic of switching the command activated to the next in the bind list if the previous entries are on cooldown.

    His point was...

    many-2-one keybinds using the in-game mechanics - not cheating
    macros using 3rd party software - cheating


    That isn't a point. It's misleading. Much like your post. Never in the history of EVER has a macro performed many tasks at once. Ever.

    In fact, it is a task sequence. An ORDER of doing things.

    So stop it.

    Hell there's only ever been ONE third party script rumored to have been used in STO that possibly has any credence to it.

    And at no point do I reference it or condone using it or CONFUSE that with a macro.

    Okay, so maybe in the future you can both call a key bind a key bind, call many binds to one key a macro, and call a script a script.

    This way you won't have to explain what you 'really meant'

    Seriously just stop. Please don't even try to say that I've ever described anything besides exactly what it is. If you don't want to read my posts and understand them, great. But stop posting on it as if you've actually read and understood it. Please.

    This is worse than the Global Cool Down conspiracy.
  • plaztikman64plaztikman64 Member Posts: 725 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    Got bored at some point in time with some parts of my gameplay so I decided to create myself a "text file" (whatever you wanna call it anyway...) with strings combining the actions which I need to press the most, in a row - or at the same time, most of the time.

    pic

    As you can see in the picture, the ground buffs are one string, and in space, the tac abilities in combination with aux2bat.

    This is saving me some time, not much, but many times, I could leave my eyes on the target and keep pressing one button, instead of looking at the hotbar or cycling the keys on the board.

    I am sure that some people have gone mayhem and got far more stuff than I do, but yeah, all I needed was a little optimisation while keeping everything else as it is (going manually for the heals, clicky consoles, attack patterns ect)
  • darkjeffdarkjeff Member Posts: 2,590 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    thissler wrote: »
    That isn't a point. It's misleading. Much like your post. Never in the history of EVER has a macro performed many tasks at once. Ever.

    In fact, it is a task sequence. An ORDER of doing things.
    thissler wrote: »
    Okay, so maybe in the future you can both call a key bind a key bind, call many binds to one key a macro, and call a script a script.
    Why would we call many binds to one key a macro? That's an incorrect definition that you appear to be pushing in direct opposition to us calling that incorrect.

    One key press resulting in multiple actions is a macro, the timing is irrelevant. It's like you've never used an office productivity suite before.

    STO's keybinds are one key press resulting in one action. STO does not support macros.
  • demonicaestheticdemonicaesthetic Member Posts: 3 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    thissler wrote: »
    That isn't a point. It's misleading. Much like your post. Never in the history of EVER has a macro performed many tasks at once. Ever.

    In fact, it is a task sequence. An ORDER of doing things.

    So stop it.

    No... I know what macros are, I've written enough of them over the last 30 odd years.
    I once wrote a macro for a scripted render engine that built an entire greek temple to order, based on the rules of doric architecture.

    I find your lack of knowledge disturbing.
    Hell there's only ever been ONE third party script rumored to have been used in STO that possibly has any credence to it.

    And at no point do I reference it or condone using it or CONFUSE that with a macro.

    That you don't know what a macro is, is your problem.
    Okay, so maybe in the future you can both call a key bind a key bind, call many binds to one key a macro, and call a script a script.

    I won't use technically incorrect terminology to appease your lack of knowledge.
    This way you won't have to explain what you 'really meant'

    You can't explain what I really meant, because you lack knowledge.
    Seriously just stop. Please don't even try to say that I've ever described anything besides exactly what it is. If you don't want to read my posts and understand them, great. But stop posting on it as if you've actually read and understood it. Please.

    The other poster pointed out that in his view, use of 3rd party scripts/macros was cheating.

    Due to your lack of knowledge, you falsely assumed he was calling you a cheat for using many-2-one keybinds.

    I merely explained that he wasn't accusing you, and that the misunderstanding was due to your lack of knowledge.

    I read and understood your posts just fine, though I did translate your incorrect terminology in my head while I read.
    This is worse than the Global Cool Down conspiracy.

    Meh.
    <center><font size="+5"><b>Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day...
    Set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life...</b></size></center>
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