You obviously don't know anything about TRIBBLE stormtroopers.
And as was pointed out, we had already killed tens of thousands by that point.
Further the mission was too drawn out by the need to artificially extend things to fit a running time which caused the problem. Had it simply been one or two groups before you go "Hey, what is really going on" then it would have been fine.
I once asked Kestral. It was written as part 1 of 3. The story would of course have ended with you killing the Undine.
I'm just pointing out that the arguments that the mission wasn't "Trek" is pure BS. There is canon where the crew of the Enterprise was tricked into murdering "innocents".
No argument that the STO mission was poorly written. Most of the content in this game is poorly written.
Yah but the point i was making was how the stories would have ended up. Conundrum started out as Trek, Emperium started out as Trek, Condundrum ended up as Trek Emperium ended up as...hmm i cant think of anything smart alecky to say so i'll just go with "not Trek" hehe. I think kirimuffin already beat me to this though.
In "Conundrum", when things started feeling off, they questioned (and ultimately disobeyed) those orders. And that was with their memories wiped, and nothing but falsified computer data to go by. (They didn't even know who had what job when they woke up!)
When "Zelle" was beamed onto my ship, I obeyed all the orders I was given, even when I started to see what was going on. I was never even given the opportunity to refuse and return to the starbase, even thinking I might face court martial.
(And with the state the "Star Empire" was in at the time, I'm pretty doggone certain they'd have accepted an apology and a statement that we'd been fooled by an Undine - they want to believe Starfleet is stupid, and they had their own issues to deal with, what with the Tal'Shiar, the remaining Imperial Fleet, and the Republic.)
The mission could actually have been salvaged with a single fork in it - about the time you're scanning all those crates and finding nothing but medical supplies, give me the opportunity to tell the Admiral, "TRIBBLE this, you're under arrest and we're going back to the ship." Then cut directly to the "turns into an Undine, we fight, she turns into a Romulan and escapes" thing. At least I didn't have to slaughter an entire base full of innocent bystanders first!
So without searching the entire station you are suddenly going to decide to engage in mutiny. The Undine chooses to remain undercover, and you up on charges at your court martial where you have no evidence to justify your disobeying orders since you didn't complete your mission. So you end up losing your command, and at best getting dishonorably discharged from Starfleet.
We have boarded the station. Defense has been minimal, at best - you'd have a harder time invading a Cub Scout meeting undetected, for crying out loud - and we've scanned multiple canisters, to find that all there are here are medical supplies. We even TRIBBLE the station computer, which also says that all this station does is medical research.
And when you ask the "admiral" about it, all she says is, "Well, you know those sneaky Romulans!"
I'd be confident in defending myself before a court martial on this evidence.
Of course you keep killing everything. They're ROMULANS!!! They are NOT going to believe you were tricked into attacking them by a shape shifting alien, even if they were researching stuff to combat Species 8472.
Killing them all and leaving no hard proof as to who wiped them out is the only way to keep the Romulans confused as to who was actually behind the attack.
Was it the Feds?
Was it the KDF trying to blame the Feds?
Was it Species 8472?
Was it some as yet unknown party?
Romulan paranoia will keep them from retaliating until they get hard evidence.
Actually, no that wouldn't work. Because you weren't jamming any communications. And an away team of personnel blazing away is going to leave all kinds of evidence. Not to mention internal surveillance, records present on any installation would have you down. Lastly, the installation you left with all that evidence still remained. You never destroyed it.
Lastly, the Species 8472 Infiltrator, masquerading as a Romulan, made a distress call that they were being attacked by you... the Federation... So some Warbirds came in to try to save them. That stuff gets broadcast on a wide scale and the ships answer to someone, so they had to report what was going on and what they were doing.
If you're going to be a criminal, you need to be smarter about it, not letting everyone in the quadrant know what's going on, and when the Romulan reinforcements arrive, all they see is a damn Starfleet vessel with dead Romulans all around
I wonder what Picard would have thought about how far the Federation has fallen Starfleet is run by a bunch of fools these days!
Yeah top secret information is always kept on the public database that can be accessed by any terminal and NEVER on a separate secure system... :rolleyes:
And that look on your face when your found guilty would be priceless, because the charges at the court martial aren't about whether or not the evidence you were sent to find was there or not. For all you know you the cannisters you were looking for had been transfered to a ship for delivery to another location before you arrived, or they are in another compartment on the station.
No, the Court Martial is about your disobeying the lawful orders of a superior officer and engaging in mutiny.
Your problem is you are metagaming out of character knowledge to justify taking actions based on things that hadn't happened yet. Your going to mutiny and arrest the admiral because she's going to turn into an undine before you have any idea she's not who she claims to be.
The away team's defense would simply be stating to the military court what they were sent in for, what the goal was, and what was being encountered, and what was actually discovered.
Lawful Orders can be ignored if the orders given was terribly wrong. The overseeing commander may remove you. But the issue can be run up the chain of command or, if the commanding officer wanted to try to bust you summarily, you can request a court martial so outside legal entities from the service can be presented the evidence.
The military doesn't take kindly to people just randomly disobeying orders, but I'm pretty sure Starfleet doesn't look kindly to Starfleet personnel conducting massacres of a bunch of innocent doctors and researchers, either
The problem with Divide et Impera wasn't that it was violent or monstrous - it was that it was stupid. It was plainly obvious that Zelle was an Undine, to the point that being dragged along on tje mission was painful.
STO has far better writing than most MMOs, and even at launch (when it wasn't nearly as good as it is now), it was still in the top 50%. But Divide et Impera is the worst MMO quest I've ever played, because it made my character into an idiot.
Yeah top secret information is always kept on the public database that can be accessed by any terminal and NEVER on a separate secure system... :rolleyes:
And that look on your face when your found guilty would be priceless, because the charges at the court martial aren't about whether or not the evidence you were sent to find was there or not. For all you know you the cannisters you were looking for had been transfered to a ship for delivery to another location before you arrived, or they are in another compartment on the station.
No, the Court Martial is about your disobeying the lawful orders of a superior officer and engaging in mutiny.
Your problem is you are metagaming out of character knowledge to justify taking actions based on things that hadn't happened yet. Your going to mutiny and arrest the admiral because she's going to turn into an undine before you have any idea she's not who she claims to be.
You obviously had enough military experience as the episode's author. If Starfleet's version of the UCMJ is roughly the same as the US', then our character would be stripped of rank sent to a penal colony because it would be our duty to disobey unethical orders.
I love how you're all whining about a mission long removed and thus long irrelevant.
Say what you will about Cryptic story writing, but at least were given more of a choice now, if they redid that mission now it would be very different then it was originally.
Yep. Had am LtJG. charge me with assault for a practical joke I played on a shipmate. Didn't matter no assault actually occurred, technically I was guilty. Fortunately the my CO didn't agree with the LT about the seriousness of the charges, or like him so only gave me a $50 dollar fine, and said not to do it again. My CO also had a chat with the LtJG about wasting his time bringing people to mast with frivolous charges.
Depending the severity and the mood of the presiding officer, even whistleblowers will get an Article 92.
I was a very straight arrow in my time as a "secret squirrel" in the Army.
Back to the Topic, early STO's story was a mess. However, the newer stuff is a lot better.
You obviously had enough military experience as the episode's author. .
If Starfleet's version of the UCMJ is roughly the same as the US', then our character would be stripped of rank sent to a penal colony because it would be our duty to disobey unethical orders.
Spoken as someone who had any experience in special ops ?
No , didn't think so .
See , Divide @ Impera wasn't a "go in and kill the Soviet / German / Bad Guys scientists of your choice " .
It was "go into enemy territory and gather intel" -- with no mention of what to do if resistance in encountered . See that is where "military experience" comes in as an author .
Special ops preparation , especially in enemy territory kind of don't leave that tiny detail missing unless it's stating the obvious , but even then it get's mentioned as part of the routine .
... Divide was STO's best Star Trek mission ever because it had your character doing something questionable . Now you can all sleep better with knowing that you murdered thousands if no millions of NPC's , but your hands are as clean as a white napkin ... , as per the simplified black / white morality code of a shooter game ...
STO's writing is bad. But Cracked.com is pretty atrocious. They constantly break up lists over multiple pages for no reason other than to get more people clicking.
Some of their authors are pretty juvenile. I'm not even sure they have professional writers. Just people who show up and refuse to leave.
Spoken as someone who had any experience in special ops ?
No , didn't think so .
See , Divide @ Impera wasn't a "go in and kill the Soviet / German / Bad Guys scientists of your choice " .
It was "go into enemy territory and gather intel" -- with no mention of what to do if resistance in encountered . See that is where "military experience" comes in as an author .
Special ops preparation , especially in enemy territory kind of don't leave that tiny detail missing unless it's stating the obvious , but even then it get's mentioned as part of the routine .
... Divide was STO's best Star Trek mission ever because it had your character doing something questionable . Now you can all sleep better with knowing that you murdered thousands if no millions of NPC's , but your hands are as clean as a white napkin ... , as per the simplified black / white morality code of a shooter game ...
You're talking about going into enemy territory based on a false presumptions, kill innocent medical researchers despite all the evidence that you were given turns out to be false. So our character's next move after the mission is to send in the after action reports with either the false information to protect ourselves or tell the truth hoping that outing an Undine agent whitewashes your actions. Due to the structure of that mission, our characters are criminals either way. I am glad that mission in its original state is gone.
The newer ones werent that well written either. I mean, in Blood of the ancients we stomp every squad the enemy throws at us, yet after we leave, everything gets destroyed (even on New Romulus).
In House of the Idiots we see what we all knew, Covert Ops isnt for the Klingons. They sabotage the mission in some misguided believe of higher powers. Its the same Cliche we saw multiple times in ST and STO.
If worse came to worse, they now see what their hubris holds for them, if an insect can cut a gods arm. Then they will adapt their strategies and push us even further into a corner. Unfortunately, with STOs poor writing, this wont ever happen.
... Divide was STO's best Star Trek mission ever because it had your character doing something questionable . Now you can all sleep better with knowing that you murdered thousands if no millions of NPC's , but your hands are as clean as a white napkin ... , as per the simplified black / white morality code of a shooter game ...
I dont think so. The question was never asked, not even implied. It was "oops we got crossed. Nothing we can do about. Lalala" and in the next mission, the slaughter begins anew. Its nowhere near Sisko Pale Moonlight or Picard overlooking Rikers violation of the prime directive. It was just a generic episode of sto, similar to how you can kill the remans in their secret base and still become best mates with Obisek.
It was just a generic episode of sto, similar to how you can kill the remans in their secret base and still become best mates with Obisek.
You can't kill the Remans in Frozen. Even if you go against them, you only stun them and can then choose to arrest them or leave them there, after defeating the Tal Shiar. Either way, they're saved from the Tal Shiar who would surely execute them.
That choice is actually very well written and a perfect example of how things can be done to give the player a choice that really affects the outcome of the misssion, without throwing the rest of the storyline off the rails.
The problem with Divide et Impera wasn't that it was violent or monstrous - it was that it was stupid. It was plainly obvious that Zelle was an Undine, to the point that being dragged along on tje mission was painful.
STO has far better writing than most MMOs, and even at launch (when it wasn't nearly as good as it is now), it was still in the top 50%. But Divide et Impera is the worst MMO quest I've ever played, because it made my character into an idiot.
Yeah, I figured it out when Zelle ordered me to essentially execute all of the Romulans I encountered to "prevent a diplomatic incident" or something. Uh and who are the Romulans going to blame for this?
Yeah, I figured it out when Zelle ordered me to essentially execute all of the Romulans I encountered to "prevent a diplomatic incident" or something. Uh and who are the Romulans going to blame for this?
But that is what you are supposed to feel. You should feel manipulated and upset by the end of the mission. It is supposed to feel wrong. That is why I wish they had not removed it. It is one of the few missions in the game where you can feel bad for all the people you killed - rather then just killing them by the hundreds and shouting out "cool" when they disintegrate from your phaser blast. It is one of the few missions that had a sense of morality.
completely agree with this post. and the mission succeeded in evoking that feeling.
But that is what you are supposed to feel. You should feel manipulated and upset by the end of the mission. It is supposed to feel wrong. That is why I wish they had not removed it. It is one of the few missions in the game where you can feel bad for all the people you killed - rather then just killing them by the hundreds and shouting out "cool" when they disintegrate from your phaser blast. It is one of the few missions that had a sense of morality.
Are you sure you're thinking of Divide et Impera and not, like, Mind Game?
Are you sure you're thinking of Divide et Impera and not, like, Mind Game?
Mind Game is the mind control one the Romulan PC does, right? Because that mission is amazing. And it does in fact hit the notes Divide et Impera shot for and failed miserably at.
Are you sure you're thinking of Divide et Impera and not, like, Mind Game?
And there's a great counter-example. In Mind Games, you're on rails - but you have the option of fighting against them, and trying (futilely, but trying) to escape the mental trap you're in. (In fact, you get an accolade for fighting them, and a different one for not fighting.)
In Divide et Impera, you were an idiot, plain and simple. Or worse, complacently complicit in the Undine's plot to destabilize relations between the Federation and the remnants of the Star Empire even further.
Are you sure you're thinking of Divide et Impera and not, like, Mind Game?
Look, I am not saying it was a good mission, or even a well written mission - though I could say the same thing about hundreds of Trek episodes over their 28 Season. I am simply saying it is one of the few missions in the game where killing ships and starbases full of people had some sort of moral implication. Everywhere else you go it is just kill for fun.
Heck, your very first mission as a Starfleet Captain, Stranded in Space, has you blowing up 7 Orion ships full of people, killing Orions on the ship - going in and coming out - and even leaving injured people behind on the Azura if you were not a Science Captain. And the killing just increases by the thousands afterwards in the missions which follow. All without any moral implications within them. It was a rare mission in the STO pantheon, IMO.
STO is about my Liberated Borg Federation Captain with his Breen 1st Officer, Jem'Hadar Tactical Officer, Liberated Borg Engineering Officer, Android Ops Officer, Photonic Science Officer, Gorn Science Officer, and Reman Medical Officer jumping into their Jem'Hadar Carrier and flying off to do missions for the new Romulan Empire. But for some players allowing a T5 Connie to be used breaks the canon in the game.
Comments
My character Tsin'xing
Yah but the point i was making was how the stories would have ended up. Conundrum started out as Trek, Emperium started out as Trek, Condundrum ended up as Trek Emperium ended up as...hmm i cant think of anything smart alecky to say so i'll just go with "not Trek" hehe. I think kirimuffin already beat me to this though.
When "Zelle" was beamed onto my ship, I obeyed all the orders I was given, even when I started to see what was going on. I was never even given the opportunity to refuse and return to the starbase, even thinking I might face court martial.
(And with the state the "Star Empire" was in at the time, I'm pretty doggone certain they'd have accepted an apology and a statement that we'd been fooled by an Undine - they want to believe Starfleet is stupid, and they had their own issues to deal with, what with the Tal'Shiar, the remaining Imperial Fleet, and the Republic.)
The mission could actually have been salvaged with a single fork in it - about the time you're scanning all those crates and finding nothing but medical supplies, give me the opportunity to tell the Admiral, "TRIBBLE this, you're under arrest and we're going back to the ship." Then cut directly to the "turns into an Undine, we fight, she turns into a Romulan and escapes" thing. At least I didn't have to slaughter an entire base full of innocent bystanders first!
And when you ask the "admiral" about it, all she says is, "Well, you know those sneaky Romulans!"
I'd be confident in defending myself before a court martial on this evidence.
Actually, no that wouldn't work. Because you weren't jamming any communications. And an away team of personnel blazing away is going to leave all kinds of evidence. Not to mention internal surveillance, records present on any installation would have you down. Lastly, the installation you left with all that evidence still remained. You never destroyed it.
Lastly, the Species 8472 Infiltrator, masquerading as a Romulan, made a distress call that they were being attacked by you... the Federation... So some Warbirds came in to try to save them. That stuff gets broadcast on a wide scale and the ships answer to someone, so they had to report what was going on and what they were doing.
If you're going to be a criminal, you need to be smarter about it, not letting everyone in the quadrant know what's going on, and when the Romulan reinforcements arrive, all they see is a damn Starfleet vessel with dead Romulans all around
I wonder what Picard would have thought about how far the Federation has fallen
The away team's defense would simply be stating to the military court what they were sent in for, what the goal was, and what was being encountered, and what was actually discovered.
Lawful Orders can be ignored if the orders given was terribly wrong. The overseeing commander may remove you. But the issue can be run up the chain of command or, if the commanding officer wanted to try to bust you summarily, you can request a court martial so outside legal entities from the service can be presented the evidence.
The military doesn't take kindly to people just randomly disobeying orders, but I'm pretty sure Starfleet doesn't look kindly to Starfleet personnel conducting massacres of a bunch of innocent doctors and researchers, either
STO has far better writing than most MMOs, and even at launch (when it wasn't nearly as good as it is now), it was still in the top 50%. But Divide et Impera is the worst MMO quest I've ever played, because it made my character into an idiot.
You obviously had enough military experience as the episode's author. If Starfleet's version of the UCMJ is roughly the same as the US', then our character would be stripped of rank sent to a penal colony because it would be our duty to disobey unethical orders.
Say what you will about Cryptic story writing, but at least were given more of a choice now, if they redid that mission now it would be very different then it was originally.
Depending the severity and the mood of the presiding officer, even whistleblowers will get an Article 92.
I was a very straight arrow in my time as a "secret squirrel" in the Army.
Back to the Topic, early STO's story was a mess. However, the newer stuff is a lot better.
Now, on to other more important topics ...
Spoken as someone who had any experience in special ops ?
No , didn't think so .
See , Divide @ Impera wasn't a "go in and kill the Soviet / German / Bad Guys scientists of your choice " .
It was "go into enemy territory and gather intel" -- with no mention of what to do if resistance in encountered . See that is where "military experience" comes in as an author .
Special ops preparation , especially in enemy territory kind of don't leave that tiny detail missing unless it's stating the obvious , but even then it get's mentioned as part of the routine .
... Divide was STO's best Star Trek mission ever because it had your character doing something questionable . Now you can all sleep better with knowing that you murdered thousands if no millions of NPC's , but your hands are as clean as a white napkin ... , as per the simplified black / white morality code of a shooter game ...
Lol you jelly. Jelly jelly jelly.
Saw the article....yep pretty accurate.
Interested in Role Playing? Join the 12th Fleet Science division!
You're talking about going into enemy territory based on a false presumptions, kill innocent medical researchers despite all the evidence that you were given turns out to be false. So our character's next move after the mission is to send in the after action reports with either the false information to protect ourselves or tell the truth hoping that outing an Undine agent whitewashes your actions. Due to the structure of that mission, our characters are criminals either way. I am glad that mission in its original state is gone.
In House of the Idiots we see what we all knew, Covert Ops isnt for the Klingons. They sabotage the mission in some misguided believe of higher powers. Its the same Cliche we saw multiple times in ST and STO.
If worse came to worse, they now see what their hubris holds for them, if an insect can cut a gods arm. Then they will adapt their strategies and push us even further into a corner. Unfortunately, with STOs poor writing, this wont ever happen.
I dont think so. The question was never asked, not even implied. It was "oops we got crossed. Nothing we can do about. Lalala" and in the next mission, the slaughter begins anew. Its nowhere near Sisko Pale Moonlight or Picard overlooking Rikers violation of the prime directive. It was just a generic episode of sto, similar to how you can kill the remans in their secret base and still become best mates with Obisek.
You can't kill the Remans in Frozen. Even if you go against them, you only stun them and can then choose to arrest them or leave them there, after defeating the Tal Shiar. Either way, they're saved from the Tal Shiar who would surely execute them.
That choice is actually very well written and a perfect example of how things can be done to give the player a choice that really affects the outcome of the misssion, without throwing the rest of the storyline off the rails.
My character Tsin'xing
If they werent to blame, you wouldnt shoot them.
I didn't feel manipulated, though, because the truth of what was happening was plainly obvious. I felt like my character was an idiot.
And there were no repercussions.
Did I really have to set the ironty-tags?
Are you sure you're thinking of Divide et Impera and not, like, Mind Game?
Mind Game is the mind control one the Romulan PC does, right? Because that mission is amazing. And it does in fact hit the notes Divide et Impera shot for and failed miserably at.
In Divide et Impera, you were an idiot, plain and simple. Or worse, complacently complicit in the Undine's plot to destabilize relations between the Federation and the remnants of the Star Empire even further.
Heck, your very first mission as a Starfleet Captain, Stranded in Space, has you blowing up 7 Orion ships full of people, killing Orions on the ship - going in and coming out - and even leaving injured people behind on the Azura if you were not a Science Captain. And the killing just increases by the thousands afterwards in the missions which follow. All without any moral implications within them. It was a rare mission in the STO pantheon, IMO.