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Much overlooked ships for T6
yreodred
Member Posts: 3,527 Arc User
Hello guys, i'd like to talk about lesser popular ships like the (original) Star Cruisers and Heavy Cruisers. I know they are by far not a popular as some Canon ship, not to speak of Galaxy, Sovereign or Defiant, but i think they have their very own charm and i'd love to have them at T6 level.
The very advanced looking Star Cruiser could have a come back as Science Cruisers, similar to the Nebula, but with a even bigger lean towards science. (maybe a Lt. Cmdr and Lt. Science)
They could be a Cruiser variant of the Vesta (aux beam arrays and so on) or even Intrepid. This would give them a very own place within STOs ship hierarchy without taking part of the "more Firepower!!!" loop.
I think it's a pity to see the only original (and nice) looking Cryptic made design being almost forgotten.
The Heavy Cruiser on the other hand could be a more like the Eclipse but without the cloak and a slightly stronger orientation towards tanking. They could also get a more flexible BOFF layout having a Lt. cmdr universal.
What do you think?
(Please keep it civil
)
The very advanced looking Star Cruiser could have a come back as Science Cruisers, similar to the Nebula, but with a even bigger lean towards science. (maybe a Lt. Cmdr and Lt. Science)
They could be a Cruiser variant of the Vesta (aux beam arrays and so on) or even Intrepid. This would give them a very own place within STOs ship hierarchy without taking part of the "more Firepower!!!" loop.
I think it's a pity to see the only original (and nice) looking Cryptic made design being almost forgotten.
The Heavy Cruiser on the other hand could be a more like the Eclipse but without the cloak and a slightly stronger orientation towards tanking. They could also get a more flexible BOFF layout having a Lt. cmdr universal.
What do you think?
(Please keep it civil
) "...'With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured...the first thought forbidden...the first freedom denied--chains us all irrevocably.' ... The first time any man's freedom is trodden on, we're all damaged. I fear that today--"
- (TNG) Picard, quoting Judge Aaron Satie
A tale of two Picards
https://youtu.be/d-f3bscZa0E?t=105
(also applies to Star Trek in general)
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Yep. Seems like a good idea to me. I always wondered why there wasn't a Star Cruiser variant similar to the Assault Cruiser C-Store version, with the Lt. Cmdr Sci instead of Tac. I for lone love me some gravwell!
The Heavy Cruiser was the work horse of the Federation, with the Excelsior being only one variant of it. Adding in a T6 version made for staying power as opposed to being Stealthy makes lots of sense to me.
However, there has been a saturation of cruisers of late and I don't think the majority of forumites will want to see yet another cruiser.
The Star Cruisers don't sport a bad design, but I always considered them completely obsolete in-lore. They are such large and resourceful starships with no purpose besides the Galaxy and later Oddyssey ships - I could never really accept their existence.
What I would like is if the star Cruiser would be completely retired from STO's Starfleet but become the main vessel for the terran empire faction. Alongside the other launch designs (Deep-space science, patrol escort) they could form the majority of mirror ships. Of course, they should not be taken away from players but eliminated as NPCs for prime Starfleet. For T6 I again fail to see it's niche - and I would prefer a T6 Nebula a thousand times over those, sorry
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But i can understand it's not that easy to find a place where to put the 4 nacelled ships to.
(i was struggeling myself, lol)
But i'd hate to see that design being vanished. On the other hand, there is still the mirror empire, as you said.
I always imagined the (original) Star Cruiser (not the Odyssey) as a class of ships designed for extreme long term exploration. Lessons which where made by Voyager where implemented in the Star Cruiser design. But unlike the Galaxy Class, those ships where no flying cities but more like a expedition center/spearhead of Starfleet exploration branch. (more leaned towards science than engineering)
I wouldn't consider them obsolete (in universe) since they where described as the most advanced Starfleet cruisers when STO started and there's still more than enough room for more than just one science heavy Cruiser besides the Nebula imo. There are more than enough tac heavy ships out there, so i see no reason why both the Nebula and the Star Cruiser shouldn't exist side by side.
We don't know which specialization Cryptics devs will relase after Pilot. Who knows maybe they'll find something for the Nebula AND Star Cruiser. Or they could make the Star Cruiser a Intel/science cruiser (yeah, sounds weird, lol) and the Nebula a Command/Science cruiser. there are so much possibilities.
On the other hand, i wouldn't want to see them as prime ships of the Mirror Empire, since their design is clearly not as agressive like the Eclipse or Avenger for example. (those would have been perfect examples for Mirror ship designs, imo)
The Nebula is predestined for an intel specialization, as canon does identify it as a vessel capable of covert operation (that's why there are no visible impulse engines on it). A Nebula must have a LTC Intel spec. Since it is meant to be an "advanced" class, maybe it gets a command lt/ens and sports to specializations, who knows. CMDR Sci, LTC Eng/Intel, LTC Uni, Lt Tac, Ens Sci maybe.
The Star Cruiser... I don't know. CMDR Eng, LTC Sci, LTC Eng, Lt Tac, Ens uni, maybe? (Since the galaxy got the Tac console and the guardian (Ambassador) has LTC Tac and LTC Sci). Specialization wise, when there is no new one better suited coming around I'd say intel/command. But then again we already have those covert. It's not easy.
The Olympic would be an excellent T6 ship when they ever rework the crew mechanic to actually work. And it's special console/ability would reflect it's hospital ship status and greatly help players to heal/keep their crews alive.
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So there would be no problem for a T6 Starcruiser-like ship but not with the same design.
I think Cryptic once said they would make T 6 versions of canon, iconic ships. For me that would be Intrepid, Galaxy, Defiant, Sovereign and then maybe Akira (maybe add a Norway skin to the HEC), Prometheus, Maybe even a T6 Constellation since we got a T5(U) Version. But i doubt we will see a T6 Constellation, a T6 Ambassador and a T Excelsior because they didn't even get a 2409 c-store Refit version.
And why not go with the Designs we have for T6 so far Guardian and Eclipse are great Ships, Scryer and Dauntless great Sci Vessels with offensive potential.
Of course not everyone likes all of those ships but also not everyone liked the old STar Cruisers and Deadalus. They had their frieds (incl. me for the Starcruisers) but that does not mean we should get them as T6. Esp. since their offensive potential was way too low.
So the list of ships i'd like as T6:
very likely to come:
T6 Defiant (but best added as a skin to Pilot or Intel Escorts)
T6 Sovereign, continuing the Regent design lineage
more unlikely:
Nebula, Andromeda Variant, Tac/Sci battlecruiser, little borther of the Galaxy
Olympic with a more Canon looking skin
D'Kyr as a Tac cruiser since it was a Combat cruiser in ENT 3-4 Tac consoles 4/4 weapons
Prometheus with increased MVAM abilites (commands, more Damage)
Akira, as a T6 Battlecruiser no cannons but Hangar and Cruiser commands
Ambassador, Added skin to the Guardian, no new 3000 Zen ship
Or Ambassador and Excelsior as Fan service in a 4000Zen Box
That's the first time i hear that tbh.
Of course i was aware that its impulse engine where missing, but i never heard that the Nebula is supposed to do covert operations in canon trek. If you look at it from that perspective, a Intel spec would be appropriate of course. I always associated the Neb with either tactical or Scientific duties (mostly because of it's exchangeable mission pod)
With the availlabe specialization options i'd give it a Lt. Tac.///Cmdr. Eng///Lt. Eng./Intel.///Lt.Cmdr. Sci./intel.///Lt. uni.
I know intel doesn't sound very explorer-ish, but it's too big for a pilot spec and since it is supposed to operate without backup a Command spec would be nonsense imo. Maybe Cryptics devs will pull something more suitable out of the hat, somewhen.
Another possibility would be to make it the mirror counterpart of the Guardian, it wouldn't make much sense for the mirror terrans to build explorer ships, but for us it would be still better than nothing.
I don't think they will make their hands dirty and redo the Starcrusier design. Not until there's a high demand for them, but as much as i like them i don't see many people want to fly one.
I'd be already happy if they would use the old models and give them some useful T6 stats.
I am absolutely sure iconic ships will get a T6 variant.
I also like the Star Gazer design, but always thought it should be something other than cruiser. Of course, STO doesn't have any flexibility in ship categories.
No seriously, Excelsior.
On the Nebula: "A careful inspection of the Nebula-class model reveals that it has no visible impulse engines. In a recent entry on Doug Drexler's weblog, Rick Sternbach indicated that he envisioned the ship's impulse drives as being hidden behind baffles to scatter their signature for stealth reasons. He added that "modern" Starfleet vessel impulse engines operated on little conventional rocket thrust anyways, being more of a sub-warp subspace drive." (MA). Add to that the versatility of the "pod" including sophisticated long-range sensors ("listening post") and it was said to be faster than a small runabout (In Voyager "Non Sequitur"). I don't know, however, wether this was meant in terms of sub-warp or warp. Warp wouldn't surprise me, but if it's sub-warp then the ship would even qualify for a low tier pilot spec. Like
CMDR Sci
LTC Eng (Intel)
LTC Uni (Intel)
Lt Tac (Pilot)
Ens Sci (Pilot)
I am not sure where to place the specs, but of course there's only one of them each. The Nebula is a really versatile and powerful design, the LTC uni is a promotion from T5 and supplies a great flexibilit to fill many roles, it's 3/3 weapon layout and sci-heavy consoles make it not as tough as a Galaxy in combat, though. It still should be the heaviest sci ship.
On the Star Cruiser, your reasoning makes sense, but I really fail to see the "Intel" theme on it. Tha being said, I fail to see the "intel" on the Ambassador/Guardian as well, so maybe it doesn't have to make sense all the time
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I like this thread.
"Critics who say that the optimistic utopia Star Trek depicted is now outmoded forget the cultural context that gave birth to it: Star Trek was not a manifestation of optimism when optimism was easy. Star Trek declared a hope for a future that nobody stuck in the present could believe in. For all our struggles today, we haven’t outgrown the need for stories like Star Trek. We need tales of optimism, of heroes, of courage and goodness now as much as we’ve ever needed them."
-Thomas Marrone
Even at the begin of STO, the Star Cruisers BOFF layout was rather medicore. I can't imaginge anyone would buy that ship for real money, not whith such a BOFF layout.
I agree, the old Stargazer always felt like a Sci/tac to me (don't ask me why, lol)
Depending its ship configuration the Heavy Cruiser has a very different appearing and can feel very different imo.
(never liked the offset nacelles some variants have. Idk what they where thinking, lol)
I am sure the Excelsior won't be forgotten by cryptics devs.
Sternbachs explaination (stealth) seems to be a bit too much of a strech to me (they could have admit they just forgot the impulse engine, lol), but anyway. It gives the ship a interesting touch imo.
I like the BOFF layout, it's very unconventional. But 2x intel and 2x pilot seems a bit too much for a "older" ship like the Nebula and Pilot feels a bit out of place on such a big ship anyway. I'd rather give it a Lt. Tac (intel) and a ens Sci (intel) seat, without a hybrid LTC eng and LTC uni. Additionally it should have Sensor analysis in any case.
On the other hand if Cryptics devs really give the T6 Sovereign a Pilot hybrid Spec, things look different of course.:)
But i'm not so sure about the Nebula being the heaviest Sci ship anymore. (Galaxy is not the most powerful ship anymore, too) There should be room for newer designs, but that's a matter of opinion.
I favour intel only because of the lack of more suitable alternatives.
The more i think about it, i think that a Guardian-like BOFF Laout would fit very well to a T6 Star Cruiser.
Maybe something like that:
Tac: Lt.Cmdr
Eng (intel): Cmdr.
Eng: Lt.
Sci: Lt. Cmdr
Universal. Ens.
Consoles: 3 (fleet:4) 4 3
+ Strategic Maneuvering
+ Weapon System Efficiency
(+ Shield Frequency, maybe)
Hull: 40,425 (at level 50) and 49,000 (at level 60)
Turn Rate: 10
Crew: 500*
*I lowered its Crew from originaly 1000 to 500. (1000 seems to be way too much for that ship, imo.)
What about the DSSV and Research Science Vessel?
I think the DSSV could be a good Mirror design (maybe a mirror pathfinder or dauntless?)
The Research Science Vessel should be a 100% science ship on T6 too imo.
(I love that design especially Cryptics variants, which doesn't happen very often, lol.)
EDIT:
@psycoticvulcan
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To be fair, the D'Kyr is a vastly underestimated, solid ship. It is now old and overhauled, but it never was a bad ship - people just were pissed because it wasn't a escort.
That's a general problem - for a long time and even today, the general playerbase considered every ship short of tac consoles and high level tac boffs worthless. That's what pushed those ships into obscurity in the first place.
Another candidate that however never made it into the game is a Tellarite ship - Andorian and Vulcan ships are there - where's Tellar's contribution?
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Cmdr Eng
Lt Cmdr Sci
Lt Cmdr Tac/Intel
Lt Eng
Ens Univ
Star Cruisers are thematically not combat vessels. They're big, lumbering space whale explorers that seem to be designed to take the most the farthest, if that makes any sense. Firepower should come at the sacrifice of intel and vice versa, while Sci and Eng (this ship's bread and butter) be largely inflexible. The Ensign Univ can help offset some of the Tac sacrifice, but not much. Lt. Cmdr Intel allows for Surgical Strikes, however, which also offsets some of the firepower loss from having to sacrifice Tac powers for Intel. Though frankly I don't like any of the current specializations for the Star Cruiser. None of them feel quite right. Intel is probably the best fit, though Command could be argued easily.
As for underappreciated ships, my dream is a T6 Recon Sci Vessel, laid out as such:
Cmdr Sci
Lt Cmdr Tac
Lt Cmdr Sci/Intel
Lt Eng
Ens Univ
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Speaking of the Nebula, I kind of wish they would just make it THE science cruiser. Make it an 8 gun cruiser with two hard mounted LCDR Sci BOffs. Give up the cruiser commands for a secondary deflector and be done with it.
I personally am not fond of this because I am very fond of the CMDR Sci
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I appreciate your opinion. I am just think about what it would take for me to pull the Neb' out of mothballs. Towards the end of T5, she was feeling pretty tired to my sci toon.
So instead of just dismissing them, why not simply unlock those ship parts for the Intel Cruiser which has a very similar configuration anyway?
(except the constellation saucer of course)
I would love this update to the Recon. The Luna is still one of my all time favourite Starfleet designs.
Cryptic, name your price
It's one of my favourite non-canon-but-still-quasi-official starship designs.
I doubt that would work. This isn't like making T5 retrofits; the Eclipse is an absolutely massive ship, while the Heavy Cruisers are pretty small. They'd probably look horrible if they were simply resized to Intel cruiser scale, so Cryptic would most likely have to make whole new models from scratch.
Can't see them going to that much trouble just to appease HC fans.
If Heavy Cruisers were to make it to T6, it would likely have to be as their own thing.
There's more money to sqeeze if they release a new T6 Heavy Cruiser in the future.
EDIT:
Like most ships in STO(aside from some canon Cruisers), the Eclipses comparable high turnrate makes it feel more like a escort than a Cruiser. Especially if you run 2x AtID.
Btw, have Cryptics devs even tried to explain why some huge ships like the Ha'feh or Eclipse for example have such a high turnrate and other ships like the guardian, Galaxy or D'D for ex. don't? (although some are even smaller)
Even some Escorts like the Patrol Escort are comparable big, but have a rediculus high turnrate.
On this same note I'd REALLY love the Mirror Universe ship skins to be available for ALL ships of the line. Maybe have a c-store package available just for ship skins or something. I'd drop 5 bucks on more exterior looks.
As far as overlooked ships go:
I would rather see a Tier 5 Heavy Cruiser available with a possible upgrade to Tier 5-U than a tier 6 Heavy Cruiser. I know there is a Fleet version, but I'd like one available without having to buy one from a fleet shipyard. It's a work horse, not meant to be special with all the bells and whistles. Even Picard when talking to Scotty talks about how much he missed the Stargazer and what it was in comparison to the Enterprise D.
The same goes for a Star Cruiser: Same exact thing they did for the Assault Cruiser (Tier 5 upgradable to Tier 5-U), except with a Star Cruiserish skin (maybe something even more Leviathan looking), and instead of Lt Com Tac, make it Lt. Com Sci.
I for one use mostly tier 5-U ships, with only a couple of exceptions. My Captains have their individualized ships, and I still wish I didn't have to go through a string of different ships on the way to end game content... Tier 6 is supposed to be top of the line exceptional and special. Flooding the market with them will just make them the norm.
Not really, T6 *is* the new norm. It's what ships lvl 60 players are supposed to use and since STO is all about endgame (everything before queued content and battlezones is single-player tutorial, basically) T6 is the baseline people use now after the upgrade. T5U is just a "transition", basically. Once the T6 loadout is as oveersaturated as T5 was those ships become entirely obsolete, just like T1-T4 c-store ships which you only buy for a console/skin/set bonus but not to "play" them more than a few hours tops.
Eventually all T5 ships will have T6 versions. All of them, except some models they want to phase out and I think the launch models are amongst those as Geko once said he basically wants to delete everything from the past.
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That would be a shame. I have grown quite fond of the looks of the patrol escort.