test content
Logo
What is the Arc Client?
Install Arc
Here's what your fail conditions have really done
shinnok918
Member Posts: 312 Arc User
whatever developer thought these insta-fail conditions on the STF's clearly wasn't thinking. "ooh lets make it more challenging" was the initial thought. but here's what really happened: its impossible if even one mistake is made. in fact in some there's not even the chance for one mistake. first mistake is the fail.
the dps crowd has the right of it, because only way to prevent mistakes is speed, not strategy. a dead enemy cant hurt u. so strategy has been completely overruled by brute force. issue is dps crowd, while not purely elitest, is still rather exclusive as most players haven't figured out the build or just don't care.
now for what the insta-fail has really done: its made players despise each other. I would say hate but it goes beyond that. I'm guilty of it too. my ignore list is around 30% made up of idiots that caused epic fails in stf's or simply didn't listen. I don't want to see them again, and trying to help doesn't due any good because most don't listen. normal queues don't reward enough for the trouble of doing them, and none of us want to be in an advanced queue with anyone that has to be taught at this point. that's the path to a fail. and since we all have limited time to play, we don't have time for fails, and therefore no time to teach the new player. we just scream at them to stay out of advanced until they figure it out.
but how are they going to figure it out if advanced players aren't willing to teach them......
the dps crowd has the right of it, because only way to prevent mistakes is speed, not strategy. a dead enemy cant hurt u. so strategy has been completely overruled by brute force. issue is dps crowd, while not purely elitest, is still rather exclusive as most players haven't figured out the build or just don't care.
now for what the insta-fail has really done: its made players despise each other. I would say hate but it goes beyond that. I'm guilty of it too. my ignore list is around 30% made up of idiots that caused epic fails in stf's or simply didn't listen. I don't want to see them again, and trying to help doesn't due any good because most don't listen. normal queues don't reward enough for the trouble of doing them, and none of us want to be in an advanced queue with anyone that has to be taught at this point. that's the path to a fail. and since we all have limited time to play, we don't have time for fails, and therefore no time to teach the new player. we just scream at them to stay out of advanced until they figure it out.
but how are they going to figure it out if advanced players aren't willing to teach them......
Post edited by shinnok918 on
0
Comments
Everyone wants to jump into Advanced - mostly with the hope that the others there can carry them - so they can get the BNPs, or whatever, and so never really learn. Whereas the players doing the Advanced are there to earn rather then just play.
It is why I have not done a PUG in years. If I am going to teach I am going to do it with Fleetmates rather then some stranger I will never see again.
ive done normal with lower end toons. u cant learn there. honestly enough in there its possible to kill the nanite probes and spheres coming through the gate still.
in advanced attacking the nanite spheres coming through the gate would be mistake #1 that causes the fail.
you get the basics down in normal, but it teaches nothing about advanced.
It baffles me how many people claim pugging is such a baaaaad experience, it always fails because noobs noobs noobs. I at least did not make these experiences. Sure I had fails, pretty dumb ones as well but stuff like that happens. If I had to throw a number into the ring I'd say maybe 1 in 10 STFs fails, probably less. And If a player really struggles just leave some general advice in the party chat, do you best to help and if it fails try again.
This is not directly aimed at you cosmic, but in general what really hurts STO is this sense of elitism that separates the playerbase. People rage about stupid noobs ruining everything but at the same time will never ever play with them in the first place, they just stick with they premades. What's supposed to change, then?
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
My point here is. If you, as the experienced player, aren't even trying to point the group you're with, pug or premade, in the right direction. You're just as responsible for the failure as they are.
this goes back to the part of "most don't listen". as to the one who said the problem is noobs, noobs, noobs. no that's not the problem. its the fact that due to insta-fail conditions nobody wants to teach the noobs because of the greater chance for insta fail.
and cosmic I covered the issue with normal in my second post.
My advice to newer players has become, "Avoid STFs unless there is some type of Event Weekend reward attached to them. Only then are they worth playing. Barely."
People are having trouble completing a mission that, though it has been re-done once or twice, is largely the same mission we've been doing for 5 years now.
That's telling.
The people doing Advanced and Elite are there earning: BNPs, Dilthium, whatever. They are not doing their 250th ASTF because they love the mission so much. They are grinding, and they want the rewards for that grinding. STO is a grind-based economy, so of course they are going to get upset if they just lost what they were grinding for.
And even outside of our individual Fleet communities there are Chat Channels, and this forum, and other forums, and Podcasts, and a lot of places where people can ask questions and get knowledge. So I think people are only as isolated as they wish to be.
The problem is, though, that nowadays with a lot of people who could play advanced or even elite joining normal missions, people don't get a chance to learn.
Whenever I play infected space normal (I like to play an easy mission every now and then), I always target the spheres above the transformer first because in advanced there's a cube at that position people might want to take care of first since it doesn't trigger the nanite spheres.
Most of the times the other people will shoot the generators first, and I'm like 'yeah I could tell them they should destroy the spheres first if they're practicing for advanced, but it doesn't matter that much in this mission'. So people won't listen because what you're saying doesn't matter at that moment. It surely doesn't if entire fleets of spheres are destroyed in seconds anyway.
It's not surprising that some of those newer players are thinking 'well, if this is normal and it's so easy, then why wouldn't I play advanced?'
As for the OP:
I'm always willing to learn things to people, that's one of the reasons I play normal ground missions a lot, even when I could be playing advanced. I just finished Infected ground normal. I explained people twice that they should be remodulating their weapons, even telling them how to open their replicator and how to equip a remodulator in case they didn't know how to do it.
Indeed, they didn't listen.
Probably had their chat screens hidden.
It's not just the fail conditions on advanced, there are several causes. People who are not willing to learn, people who aren't given a chance to learn, and let's not forget another important cause: things people need to learn that aren't logical. Like invisible trigger lines in IGA/N, the fact that blowing up a battleship (cube) in Infected space won't lead to the arrival of reinforcements but the death of a small generator does, turrets in Cure ground that can't be destroyed by conventional weapons but have to be taken down by placing a charge.
Normal is too easy. It doesn't actually teach how to do the optionals on Advanced, because it just gets steamrolled. The skills necessary to finishing Advanced? They barely matter on Normal.
People don't bother because their dil can now be farmed elsewhere. Back when i started playing, late 2011, all the way up to the introduction of New Romulus, the only dil farms we had were, doffing, mining, Defara, Nukara, and STFs, that's it. That's all we had. Want to see the ques fill up again. Riturn to these as the only dil farms around.
This is true. Normals are a bit to easy. But there is a process to this. For me, I had RL to deal with from about a month after New Rom's release. I missed everything that was released from that point until April of this year. There are STFs I don't know. I do look up information on them here and there. But even as a returning player, with a load of experience from back then, I'll hit normals up to get a look at the mechanics of it. This way I say see where the optionals are, I can roughly see how they are done. Then I can progress on without being a very big detriment to the higher level ques. I still have a lot of ques I have to do this with. Mainly the space ones... not something I look forward to. I cover my space combat with the game Starlancer. Space combat here compared to that one, well it's a 1990's flight simulator. It's dull and boring. But I have to do it, so that I have the ability to teach others.
Grinding for...fun.
Don't need anything from them - haven't needed anything from them for the most part for a long time now and they've made it even more a case of not needing anything from them.
EC? Nope.
Dil? Nope.
Marks? Nope.
E-Marks? Nope.
R&D Mats? Nope.
Fun? Oh well...if folks were somewhat prepared, weren't leeching, or weren't trolling.
I run the queues I like...I don't run the queues because of needing anything from them. Even on a new toon, it's just so much easier and potentially less frustrating to get everything elsewhere. Cryptic has made it so easy and keeps on making it easier to get stuff outside of the queues.
It's something to do in a game that doesn't really have much of anything to do. Pugging Advanced, just like pugging Elite was, is one of two sources of dynamic content in this game. And well, PvP, yeah...lol. Back in the day? Sure...definitely...mainly. Now? Lol...
Groups where folks were somewhat prepared, active, not trolling, and there was a chance at success (not guaranteed success)...that was the fun keeping me logging in. I'm not into the how fast can I do it...not into the how much DPS can I do. With pre-DR Elite I kept my builds under 10k...with DR Advanced, I work to keep them below 20k. Build goes over 20k, I change it to do less...just like I did pre-DR with builds that might go over 10k.
Groups that have no chance in Hell from the start though...there's no challenge in that. It's a DOA run. I have fun in the run being challenging but possible. Don't need the guaranteed success...that's boring to me. Group just missed preventing a fail but it was a good faith effort...awesome, winning has no meaning if it's always winning...I don't recall the shows/movies portraying the heroes as bullies flying around the galaxy roflstomping everything.
You're there in Cure, d'oh, something goes wrong - somebody gets popped by a lucky string of crits or they trigger something they maybe shouldn't have...wham, bam, a challenge created - trying to cover for that - are there mobs on the way to Kang and the run doomed? Same in Khitomer...oopsie happens...can the group recover - can they rise to the occasion? Infected? Yep...same. Etc, etc, etc....
Sure, it's cliche in a sense...but the whole facing potential ruin and defeat, the hero/heroes rise to the challenge...yadda, yadda, yadda.
If there's no potential defeat and no need to rise to the challenge, might as well be moving bricks from one pile to the next day in and day out. Yay! Er...no.
Heck... I once nearly soloed the boss in the old UIE.... If it's no-fail then there's no penalty, aside from minor annoyance, when the two team-members who didn't drop due to I-don't-know-what decide to ask questions about whether you can beat the boss with only 3 players while I fight...
My character Tsin'xing
It's a shame too, it was a big part of the game and I miss it. I used to be able to pop into whatever que had players in it and have some fun. No stress, no pressure.. no worrying about maximizing each ability.. just have fun. I guess I still can on 'normal' but the experience used to actually be rewarding.
Now all that is gone. The Que changes were without question the biggest failing of Delta Rising. I got used to the Upgrade System, the huge increase in Dilithium requirements, the slower leveling, etc. But the que changes are the one thing that still just don't sit right with me.
And the worst part is, I don't think they're ever going to follow through with fixing it.
When was this any different? The fails are with the questions and orbs. The boss there does need a buff. He is easily soloable.
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."
It's pure laziness really. My point is, insta-fail or insta-wipe game play is not fun nor is it original. Companies that make MMOs though are not interested in providing a fun or rewarding experience beyond the point where it it is perceived to impact profit. That's why MMOs generally suck TRIBBLE. You can always have a more fun, more fulfilling experience from a non-MMORPG because the people who make games to sell one time, like say The Witcher 3 for example are using the motivation of "How awesome can we make this game so that more people will buy it and tell their friends to buy it?"
Whereas MMO makers are like "How awesome can we make this game while still appealing to the most casual, unskilled player, and still appeal to the most hardcore player, while still basing our decisions off of metrics, while generating a profit off of time spent developing content blah blah blah = watered down TRIBBLE that tries to appeal to everyone but fails to please anyone and has to rely on addictive psychology to keep players in the game.
It's just like the new Iconian War queued instances. I didn't dare jump into Advanced until I felt comfortable with Normal.
And that's the basic gist of it which is overlooked. I'm wondering how many of these folks walking in to the women's restroom instead of the men's cause they don't bother with signs...
Advanced <--- a sign
So...some Advanced knowledge of the queue gained from playing Normal. Some Advanced piloting ability from having played the game. Some Advanced familiarity with builds from having played the game.
Instead they just blunder on in and complain about the missing urinals.
I have seen people try to gravwell enemies in ISA to stop them from getting to the generator but instead of targetting the farthest back one they targetted the farthest forward enemy and sucked them into range to repair the transform and instant fail.
I have been with others that where using tractor beam repulsors and their ship was just a little out of position and send repair ship straight to the transform and another instant fail.
Too many abilities require that the game be nearly lag free and require that your target doesn't change and this game does not have that.
I was also with a DPS person earlier today and they popped one generator before the cube was down and the mission failed before people even realized it had been done.
The missions are too easy to troll and too easy to accidentally fail through small errors, lag or glitches.
I agree with OP. Many topics on this have been made in the past, and I think the only practical advice is this: avoid pugs. Use pre-made teams with people you know, and those that aren't on private ignore lists.
Average pug-er keep their chats closed or neglect to set them to team channel, language barriers, age related 'barriers' (despite game being rated Teen), possibly large numbers of those new to STO who barely made L50, and Other (which includes those that are dead-set on failing the mission for everyone repeatedly).
Lag and glitches I can understand. Errors, those are player related. People don't pay attention to what they're doing any more. They'll just BF@W away. They Really need to fix BF@W. Bring it more in-line with what you see in the shows, usually ends up disabling the weapons system for a few seconds giving the system time to recharge. This is what should happen when you use BF@W. Add a mechanic in to where you have to be selective as to when you use BF@W. Just like and cannon/topr runner can tell you. I keep a sctter shot on my bar. Do I use it all the time, no. But when everything is in the right postion for a Scatter/Torp Spread, then I'll use it. Plus cannosns do have about a 5 second CD themselves. Well DHC's do, because of the burst damage they produce. Duel Cannons are good for a standard sustained cannon dps.
Remember, people don't like spam, unless they're the ones doing it in their ship. So lets stop worrying about the iconoians, and stary worrying more over the BF@W zombies.
I know the 10% rule. I know to crowd control the nanites. I've played through this mission a million times.
Trouble is, half the time I PUG it, someone else in the mission doesn't know what to do. That's despite the mission having existed for years and years. And when they do know what to do, half the time I'm with a group that can't do enough damage to clean up the spheres.
"Play it on normal" is a fallacy. It just does not adequately prepare you.
Actual join date: Open beta, 2009ish.
Normal doesn't teach anything becasuse its not the same
Its so much weaker than advanced a new player learns nothing to very little
imo
Normal should be the same as advanced with no fails
Advanced should have no fails but give bonuses and increased optional rewards
Elite should have fails increased rewards and bonuses
however all 3 should be the same otherwise , Having to increase the mobs hull and shields only shows a Fail on cryptics part for out of control dps but that's there money maker...........
So elite has to be increased hp and shields to counter
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse