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Surgical Strikes.... How to make it work?

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  • standupwookiestandupwookie Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited April 2015
    You use OSS over Aux2Bat because it frees up three DOFF slots, and a bridge power. If you level out the pilot tree you can get extra hull with your attack patterns and you can also get an ability to fix any disabled engine so that negates and power loss.

    And engineer team will clear any power loss as well.

    Plus if you have a fleet warp core with AMP you get the plus damage as well.

    The Phantom's trait is there so you do not have to use Aux2Bat for your Tac/Intel abilities.
  • seaofsorrowsseaofsorrows Member Posts: 10,919 Arc User
    edited April 2015
    amezuki wrote: »
    I'll be honest, I still don't see the appeal of using OSS instead of A2B. Consider:

    OSS
    + Can push weapon power above 125
    + Does not require aux power to boost effect
    - Takes random subsystem offline (can be eliminated with ET)
    - No doff synergies
    - Power boost decays over duration

    A2B
    + Power boost constant over duration
    + Technician doffs reduce cooldown for all other BO abilities
    + Does not require another ability (ET etc) to recover from its effect
    - Drains aux power and depends on it for effect scaling
    - Making the most of it requires VR tech doffs and ability spam

    Am I missing some detail that makes OSS a superior choice? I can see using it if you lack (or don't want to use) the doffs to use A2B to full effect, or if you're just sick of spamming A2B. But for me there is nothing OSS offers that can make up for A2B's ability to have nearly everything on global CD.


    A2B will keep your weapons power at 125, OSS lets you push it past 125.

    If you're going for damage output, a good non A2B build wil outperform A2B every time. Not using A2B lets you take advantage of other damage dealing abilities like the Nukara Offensive Trait and get the full damage boost from Amp Warp Cores (+12% damage.) Non A2B also allows you to take advantage of all the benefits of Science abilities like Hazard Emitters.

    Aux2Bat also takes up 2 engineering spots greatly limiting your build flexibility, especially on a ship like the Phantom that has limited engineering to begin with. Both builds pretty much require 3 DoFFS (A2B using Technicians, non A2b using DCE's) so that part is a wash. The DoFFS are required for A2B though, they're not required for non A2B builds, they just make it work better. And you can actually get away with 2 DCE'2, I just use 3.

    Cramming an A2B build into a Phantom is extremely limiting and in the end the results in less flexibility and lower overall damage. I'm not saying it's 'wrong,' I don't believe there is a right or wrong way to play STO, but that is my reasoning as to why I have abandoned A2b not only on this build but every ship I fly. A2B is fine as a means to an end, but the end goal for me was to break the limitations of A2B.
    Insert witty signature line here.
  • mynameisnommynameisnom Member Posts: 639 Arc User
    edited April 2015
    I recently decided to deviate from my norm of Fawboats and carriers, and opted to try building my first Surgical Strikes setup.
    The ship I chose is the Fleet Eclipse.

    My load out is pretty simple; five protonic Polaron beam arrays (for extra damage on crit), the experimental proton weapon, the advanced thoron Polaron beam array, and the kinetic cutting beam. The set is Jem Hadar XIV with an elite plasma integrated core.
    Consoles are 3x damage res, the plasmonic leech, the proton particle stabilizer (for 2 piece with proton weapon), the assimilated module (for 2 piece with cutting beam), the bio gel pack (for cool down reduction and 2 piece with thoron beam), and four spire vulnerability locators. All consoles and weapons are upgraded to XIV very rare or better.

    BoFF layout is nothing special; as far as offensive skills go, it has Surgical Strikes 3, DEM2, Emergency Power to Weapons 1, Attack Pattern Omega One, Kemosite Laced Weaponry 2, Tactical Team 1. Two copies of Aux 2 Batt (with 3 purple technicians), and then some heals.

    Traits are Battle Ready, Supremacy, and then two I can't remember off the top of my head.

    What tweaks and improves can I make, off the top, for Surgical Strikes to hit harder? On paper this is one of my strongest geared toons, but it's lagging far behind my fawboats and Cannon boats.

    Wanna maximize it? Be romulan. Lol
    [SIGPIC]http://s286.photobucket.com/user/parasite_12000/media/jub_zps9318ae82.jpg.html[/SIGPIC]
    stoutes wrote: »
    Those fish are much like their masters, filthy backstabbers... All battlecloaked fish, waiting for the right moment...
    The boss being a gigantic Winter Epohh Researcher. As you lay waste to the Epohh Horde, she can occasionally cry out things like, "Didn't you want an Epohh friend?"
  • amezukiamezuki Member Posts: 364 Arc User
    edited April 2015
    Cramming an A2B build into a Phantom is extremely limiting and in the end the results in less flexibility and lower overall damage. I'm not saying it's 'wrong,' I don't believe there is a right or wrong way to play STO, but that is my reasoning as to why I have abandoned A2b not only on this build but every ship I fly. A2B is fine as a means to an end, but the end goal for me was to break the limitations of A2B.
    I should probably clarify that I drive an Eclipse and love it to pieces. That itself probably goes a long way towards explaining why I prefer A2B over OSS--I honestly have far more Eng ability slots than I really need for my playstyle, whereas you're right that an A2B-spam build would be crippling to a Phantom.

    This is what I currently run (from memory):
    LCDR Tac: TT1, APB1, FAW3 (for CC and point defense)
    CDR IntEng: EPtS1, A2B1, A2B2, SS2 (primary DPS source)
    LCDR Eng: ET1, ET2, RSP
    LT IntSci: IT1, HE2
    ENS Uni (Sci): ST1

    Another factor is probably that I have always, always hated and shunned abilities that inflict damage/debuffs on the user, or otherwise have side effects that can TRIBBLE you at an inconvenient time--especially when they're random. As I mentioned, I do realize that you can neutralize the disable with ET--but I resent the fact that I'd have to.
    Fleet Admiral L'Yern - Screenshot and doffing addict
    Eclipse Class Intel Cruiser U.S.S. Dioscuria NX-91121-A - Interactive Crew Roster
  • seaofsorrowsseaofsorrows Member Posts: 10,919 Arc User
    edited April 2015
    amezuki wrote: »
    I should probably clarify that I drive an Eclipse and love it to pieces. That itself probably goes a long way towards explaining why I prefer A2B over OSS--I honestly have far more Eng ability slots than I really need for my playstyle, whereas you're right that an A2B-spam build would be crippling to a Phantom.

    This is what I currently run (from memory):
    LCDR Tac: TT1, APB1, FAW3 (for CC and point defense)
    CDR IntEng: EPtS1, A2B1, A2B2, SS2 (primary DPS source)
    LCDR Eng: ET1, ET2, RSP
    LT IntSci: IT1, HE2
    ENS Uni (Sci): ST1

    Another factor is probably that I have always, always hated and shunned abilities that inflict damage/debuffs on the user, or otherwise have side effects that can TRIBBLE you at an inconvenient time--especially when they're random. As I mentioned, I do realize that you can neutralize the disable with ET--but I resent the fact that I'd have to.

    OSS doesn't conflict in any way with A2B though, so if you wanted to, you could use OSS with A2B. If you used an Aux Battery and then popped A2B, you would likely be able to push your weapons past 125 for a nice little damage spike.

    While I personally don't use A2B anymore, it's still a perfectly viable setup on the right ship. It just can't be accommodated on every ship. I have always believed that the best build in this game is the one that works best for the particular player. I used A2B for a very long time, and had tremendous success with it. I have since found options that work better for me, but there is nothing wrong with using A2B if that's what works for you. It's definitely more viable on the Eclipse then it would be on the Phantom.

    I agree with you on the draw back part, that's one thing I don't like about OSS. On a cruiser, it's not as big of a deal, but the only time I ever die in my Phantom is when OSS takes down my shields a split second before a warp core breech goes off right next to me. I personally believe the drawback to OSS is too severe. Especially when more powerful abilities like Surgical Strikes have no real draw back outside of slightly decreased fire rate. The drawback is not proportionate to the gain, on an Escort OSS can absolutely get you killed, and it has many times.
    Insert witty signature line here.
  • birzarkbirzark Member Posts: 634 Arc User
    edited April 2015
    OSS doesn't conflict in any way with A2B though, so if you wanted to, you could use OSS with A2B. If you used an Aux Battery and then popped A2B, you would likely be able to push your weapons past 125 for a nice little damage spike.

    While I personally don't use A2B anymore, it's still a perfectly viable setup on the right ship. It just can't be accommodated on every ship. I have always believed that the best build in this game is the one that works best for the particular player. I used A2B for a very long time, and had tremendous success with it. I have since found options that work better for me, but there is nothing wrong with using A2B if that's what works for you. It's definitely more viable on the Eclipse then it would be on the Phantom.

    I agree with you on the draw back part, that's one thing I don't like about OSS. On a cruiser, it's not as big of a deal, but the only time I ever die in my Phantom is when OSS takes down my shields a split second before a warp core breech goes off right next to me. I personally believe the drawback to OSS is too severe. Especially when more powerful abilities like Surgical Strikes have no real draw back outside of slightly decreased fire rate. The drawback is not proportionate to the gain, on an Escort OSS can absolutely get you killed, and it has many times.

    The negative of OSS isnit really that bad cause on level 3 its only 2 sec downtime which isnt bad and the pilot tree has an ability that can protect you from a warpcore breech every 60 sec on top of that. Also now compare this to the other power ability they added with command reroute power from life support (doesn't break cap, increases cooldowns of abilites and cant be countered) So a simple ET ability that most people have that can counter the offline, and there are plenty of cores and items to bring back offline systems that go offline so having that the only draw back isnt really bad.
  • duebartonduebarton Member Posts: 15 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    You're welcome, hope you like it. :cool:

    Hey seaofsorrows,

    I finally got a change to really test the new tweaks and it was amazing!
    I reached a power level of 175, which is more then before but it is going to take some time to adjust my game play.
  • seaofsorrowsseaofsorrows Member Posts: 10,919 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    duebarton wrote: »
    Hey seaofsorrows,

    I finally got a change to really test the new tweaks and it was amazing!
    I reached a power level of 175, which is more then before but it is going to take some time to adjust my game play.

    Nice!

    It takes some getting used to, I'm mostly a 'cruiser captain' so I had my share of explosions when learning to switch over to an Escort. It's definitely much harder then flying a Cruiser, but it's pretty fun once you get it down. :cool:
    Insert witty signature line here.
  • seaofsorrowsseaofsorrows Member Posts: 10,919 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    So, a bit of an update.

    While the Phantom built around Surgical Strikes proved highly effective, I decided I wanted to try applying these same concepts to the Eclipse Intel Cruiser and the results have been nothing short of amazing.

    The Eclipse build can be found here, and as you can see is pretty much the same thing I did on the Phantom. I expected the damage output to be slightly less because of the 4 Tactical consoles compared to the 5, but the exact opposite has happened. The Eclipse takes things down even faster then the Phantom using Surgical Strikes. Right now the build I have is exactly as linked only everything is Mark XII, once I get my Delta Recruit to Mark XIV gear it should be unreal. If I didn't have the Reciprocity Trait, I would use the Commander Intel to double up on SS as well as OSS. The ionic turbulence and intelligence team are a luxury afforded by the Phantom Trait.

    My theory is, the reason the Eclipse puts out more damage is the fact that the Cruiser Command Weapon System Efficiency grants 25% less weapon drain pushing my power levels even higher. That, combined having 8 Weapon Slots instead of 7 pushes the Eclipse ahead of the Phantom. The Eclipse is a stronger ship with far more hull and better shields as well making it overall superior.

    I should qualify this all by admitting up front, I'm not the best Escort Pilot. My play style is definitely more acclimated toward Cruisers, and that might be part of why I'm doing better with this ship. As far as I know, The Eclipse is the only Fed ship that can broad side using a build based around Surgical Strikes, and it's massively and insanely powerful. Again, it's a single target build, but with all Mark 12 gear in a Red Alert, I can take down a cube solo in under 6 seconds from when I come out of cloak. Spheres disappear so fast I can't even change targets fast enough.

    This ship is a monster. I absolutely love Surgical Strikes.
    Insert witty signature line here.
  • standupwookiestandupwookie Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    Try putting DHCs on the phantom and 2 AP omnis and the kinetic beam in the back. Putting regular beams on a Phantom, of course the damage will be low. At the very least put DBBs on the phantom.

    It takes a while to fly an escort at 100 engine speed, but once you get used to it I can promise you that the damage will totally outperform the Eclipse on single targets, which is what the Phantom is best at.
  • seaofsorrowsseaofsorrows Member Posts: 10,919 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    Try putting DHCs on the phantom and 2 AP omnis and the kinetic beam in the back. Putting regular beams on a Phantom, of course the damage will be low. At the very least put DBBs on the phantom.

    It takes a while to fly an escort at 100 engine speed, but once you get used to it I can promise you that the damage will totally outperform the Eclipse on single targets, which is what the Phantom is best at.

    Oh, the damage is anything but low. Outside of the Eclipse, the Beam Phantom is the highest damage ship I have flown, far out damaging when I ran it with Cannons. In my opinion (and this is just opinion) Cannons in STO are officially obsolete until they're completely re-worked. On a ship like the Phantom, they are all but completely useless. The Phantom is a ship that requires speed, from the ship trait to it's defensive rating, the key to the Phantom has always been to keep moving. Weapons with a 45 degree firing arc are directly contrary to this weapon style. Why do the work to keep enemies in your firing arc when you can just use beams and not have to worry about it?

    I do run a variant of the Phantom with DBB's and it's pretty nice. Still doesn't do quite the damage that the single beam version does, but both greatly outclass the Cannon Variant. In all my time playing STO, I have tried so many times to make Cannons work, and have finally determined that they're not worth the effort. They're far more work for less payoff. I would love to see Cannons re-done to make them more beneficial. I run them sometimes just for 'something different,' but if I'm going into an STF or something where my team is depending on me, it's always beams for me.

    Again, just my opinion based on my play style and personal results. By no means do i think this applies to everyone. I'm totally willing to accept that part of my issue is piloting skill, the only way I have made Cannons work is doing 'strafing runs' which means I spend too much time repositioning so I can fire again.
    Insert witty signature line here.
  • standupwookiestandupwookie Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    If you put all AP CRIT D cannons and three omnis on the back and run surgical strikes with the phantom trait, full weapon and engine plus OSS III, EPTWIII, APO, and whatever else you will out perform the Eclipse.

    The eclipse does it with multiple targets, that is not the way the Phantom works. The phantom is a single target DPS machine, especially with SSIII, OSSIII and all the other escort stuff.

    SS lowers your firing rate, so you have to be able to get close enough to the enemy and fire off a SS volley, then turn and fire again at the same shield facing. Sometimes you can just run right into the side of a ship and stay there (like Borg Cubes) but you can fire off all the SS volleys if you have enough turn rate, all the while keeping high speed so that as soon as you are done with that SS volley, it will have refreshed with the Phantom's trait.

    Add in evade target lock, and it works even better.

    It's not an Alpha strike ship if you build it right, it is sustained single target DPS but you have to practice flying it because it is not easy to do.

    Using a mouse to click the BOFF powers won't work, the main keys (OSS, SS, APO, EPTW) should be rebound so you can press them all in under a second.

    And if you build it right, it's a ship with great defenses too.

    If you have all the traits, and full INTEL specialization and Pilot (up to pedal to the medal) and you have the cannons, try it out for a couple of weeks.
  • seaofsorrowsseaofsorrows Member Posts: 10,919 Arc User
    edited May 2015

    The eclipse does it with multiple targets, that is not the way the Phantom works. The phantom is a single target DPS machine, especially with SSIII, OSSIII and all the other escort stuff.

    Actually, they're both Single Target.

    Don't get me wrong, you can easily set up the Eclipse just like any other beam boat with FAW and it will perform as well, or slightly better then other FAW cruisers (due to OSS) but it's a waste of the true potential of the Eclipse. The Eclipse reaches it's true power when set up similar to the Phantom as a single target build using OSS + SS. The Eclipse is the only cruiser that can take advantage of this setup so it seems silly not to use it that way. Any Fed Cruiser can be a FAW boat, but only the Eclipse can use Commander Level Intel Abilities (SS III.)

    I have played the Phantom the exact way you suggested, only Phaser instead of AP (Which is arguably better for the Phantom since Phaser boosting Tac consoles buff the Lance.) It just didn't work for me. Again, I'm fully open to the possibility that it's just me.. that it's not my personal style to play the cannon style escort. I'm not denying the ship can be effective, it absolutely can, just to me cannon setup seems like a whole lot of extra work for little to no benefit over beam builds. Using the Phantom, my damage was far better with beams then it was with Cannons.

    Overall, you're probably just a better Cannon Escort pilot then I am. I can accept that. :cool:
    Insert witty signature line here.
  • miri2miri2 Member Posts: 112 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    In all my time playing STO, I have tried so many times to make Cannons work, and have finally determined that they're not worth the effort. They're far more work for less payoff. I would love to see Cannons re-done to make them more beneficial. I run them sometimes just for 'something different,' but if I'm going into an STF or something where my team is depending on me, it's always beams for me.

    Again, just my opinion based on my play style and personal results. By no means do i think this applies to everyone. I'm totally willing to accept that part of my issue is piloting skill, the only way I have made Cannons work is doing 'strafing runs' which means I spend too much time repositioning so I can fire again.

    I've been flying a Risian Corvette for a while now (ever since my Ambassador was rendered obsolete by not being upgradable to T5-U), and I also had one heck of a problem keeping my cannons on-target at the speeds the corvette needs in order to remain not dead. Not sure if this is applicable, but my solution was to use AP:O-3 to pull Impulse 30 in reverse, and A2B+Technicians to maximize the relative uptime of screaming backwards. Granted, I'm not sure if the Phantom has a high enough impulse modifier to quite hit that mark, and I'm sure it isn't exactly tier one tactics, but it certainly makes it easier to keep your nose on a target, at least.
    “True success is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm.”
    -- Winston Churchill
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