Another idea is to reduce the amount of resistance shields give proportional to their strength.
If full shields give 75%, then maybe shields that are "red" should only give 15-20%?
This is a very valid point. Resistances might need reworked as well. But, someone else posted a this solution (see quote below).
This is actually a really simple and elegant solution. I like it.
Ideally, yes, a full re-work of mechanics would be the best thing to happen to this game in a loooong time.
But, in lieu of that, there are a few relatively easy fixes they could do to free us from the 'RAWR FAWSMASH!!!!' monotony.
You're onto me :P
I think weakened shields should have less resistance, i also think shield power level should affect resistance and/ or bleed through. But that is another discussion.
A 25% resistance to projectile weapons wouldn't be very useful, allow me to explain why... Diminishing Returns.
You seem to like things simple so there you are. ^^
Lets take a cruiser with 75% resists for example, when calculating diminshing returns it would add almost nothing maybe 1-2% more kinetic resists. Not even enough to be noticed. This holds true for almost anyone thats running Neutronium Consoles and lets face it, anyone with two brain cells already is.
So you can either A.) Add considerably more kinetic resists or B.) Make it Invulnerable to 25% kinetic damage and Resistances are calculated seperately. Either choice ends badly for anyone shooting at cruisers.
The trouble with any of the solutions mentioned in this thread is that hull resistances can be added at will. Shields have fixed resistances that cannot be modified by players. There isnt a Neutronium console for Shields... But now that i think about it perhaps there should be. Might make me put actual science consoles in those slots for once! :rolleyes:
Any change you make to hull resistance will stack exponentially with with what players can already do pretty easily. While Shield changes are independant of anything the player can do.
It would make more sense if it were the other way around.
Energy shields absorb the energy from energy weapons. Hulls absorb the impact of kinetic weapons.
Well, yes and no, considering ships as of late, usually have hulls built from a strong resistant material, it would make sense for them to have an innate DR but, alas they do not.
I think weakened shields should have less resistance, i also think shield power level should affect resistance and/ or bleed through. But that is another discussion.
A 25% resistance to projectile weapons wouldn't be very useful, allow me to explain why... Diminishing Returns.
You seem to like things simple so there you are. ^^
Lets take a cruiser with 75% resists for example, when calculating diminshing returns it would add almost nothing maybe 1-2% more kinetic resists. Not even enough to be noticed. This holds true for almost anyone thats running Neutronium Consoles and lets face it, anyone with two brain cells already is.
So you can either A.) Add considerably more kinetic resists or B.) Make it Invulnerable to 25% kinetic damage and Resistances are calculated seperately. Either choice ends badly for anyone shooting at cruisers.
The trouble with any of the solutions mentioned in this thread is that hull resistances can be added at will. Shields have fixed resistances that cannot be modified by players. There isnt a Neutronium console for Shields... But now that i think about it perhaps there should be. Might make me put actual science consoles in those slots for once! :rolleyes:
Any change you make to hull resistance will stack exponentially with with what players can already do pretty easily. While Shield changes are independant of anything the player can do.
Shields DR changes with a lot of things, that the player has control of, it is not just a single DR most of the time so, there is ways to make it like we have neutronium on our shields.
I'd like to see a direct way to increase shield resists to energy damage (but not kin dmg). Engineer or science consoles with +shield resists instead of hull resists.
Shield power levels can then boost that even more if you have that high.
I really hate how shields behave like a yoyo in the game. They go up and down so fast it's a bit lame. I much rather see much stronger shields that take a while to punch trough but regen slower (and rework tactical team).
That way if you're smart you'll turn to a different shield facing if incoming damage is about to breach your shields.
Torps should wreck your hull though, so balance it with that.
That's not /entirely/ true though, is it? On the show Enterprise (yes, I know, but hey, it's canon and we have to live with it), the ship didn't even HAVE many decent torpedoes and it definitely didn't have shields. And yet, beam weapons were still effective. Also, of course, Star Trek II, the Reliant/Enterprise battle was almost all beam weapons and it tore those ships up like crazy.
So canonically, beam weapons are effective. Neutering them against hull just for game balance would clash with that.
Conversely, there's a TON of evidence in the shows that torps act exactly as we have them act. Star Trek VI, for example - the difference between a torp hitting a shield versus hitting the hull when shields collapsed was HUGE, and they definitely made a very big deal out of it.
All of that said, it's not like we need to rely on canon too much when we're 40 years ahead of it. It's as simple as "hey, we've developed new metal X to build our starships, beam weapons practically reflect off of them" and call it a day. Cryptic gets to sell Tier 7 ships out of the new metal and make a TRIBBLE ton (because you know that's how they'd release it, of course), and we get a more balanced weapons system idea.
But honestly, I don't see a massive influx of beamboats out there. A few people go with it, but most of us like our torps because it FEELS quicker, watching hull drop multiple points in one hit as opposed to pecking them to death. Plus there's a whole feel to that strategy, "knock the shields down and unleash the torpedo spread NOW", that's really a lot of the fun in space combat. Even if beams are inherently superior, they're less FUN.
Tl;dr Why fix a "problem" that isn't really affecting anyone?
Speaking of STVI, it took a mere 6 torpedoes to eradicate the Enterprises shields, while a 7th torpedo blasted straight thru the saucer.
shield resist is 90% (normally) that means 1k dmg only does 100 to shields capacity while 100 bleedthrough (normal standard without traits/buffs)
i think beams should suffer like 20%-35% standard penalty while DEM could be used to alter that.
cannons however should not suffer this penalty cause they already are quite penaltied by range.
but i think beams should. just for the sake of having more canon setups with torps.
also i think the shields should be changed, so that lower capacity also means incresed innate bleedthrough up to 25% max bleedthrough if only 5% facing cap is left.
So with just two rep sets and a lobi console you can be almost as good as an off-the-exchange beam boat.
If you mean "ACT says I am doing more DPS so my build is awesome", which is the reason that people with FAW builds tout them as being so great, sure. The question is, does that FAW build KILL things quickly? ACT and the combat log show how much damage is being done, but it doesn't differentiate between damage spread across 10 targets without killing them and directed forward damage that actually removes the target from the map.
Sandpapering with FAW is great for some missions, but not others. For Crystalline Catastrophe, a torp spread/cannon scatter build will beat the FAW build almost every time, and even when it doesn't, the ships using it will end the scenario faster so you can move on to something else. The same is true of most patrol missions where you are hitting 3-4 ships at a time and higher FAW is wasting shots.
Basically, the reasoning behind FAW's greatness is a bit flawed. It works, sure, and is cheap to implement, but it's not the most efficient way to actually play the game.
Basically, the reasoning behind FAW's greatness is a bit flawed. It works, sure, and is cheap to implement, but it's not the most efficient way to actually play the game.
If BFAW was actually a DPS loss against single targets, perhaps, but for every question, except what to shoot aceton assimilators with when within 5km, the answer is always BFAW.
Building a pure beam or torpedo boat should be harder than building a canon boat (note the one 'n'). Beam boats are as much an aberrant playstyle as torp boats, just much more popular because there are no drawbacks to doing energy and only energy damage whereas shields provide a massive disincentive to pure kinetic builds.
This is my Risian Corvette. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
I think weakened shields should have less resistance, i also think shield power level should affect resistance and/ or bleed through. But that is another discussion.
Shield Power Level affects resistance. Adding even more effects to low shield values however leads to the big problem of death spirals. And only for bleedthrough would you actually see any meaningful difference from just lowering shield points to begin with.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
A Photon will do ~2x the DPS vs. Hull that a DHC will.
A DHC will do ~2x the DPS vs. Shields that a Photon will.
"Should bare hull resist Energy Weapons the same way Shields resist Torpedoes?"
It already does.
What it doesn't take into account is everything else...triggered CDs, Weapon Power, Range Penalty, Weapon Abilities, etc, etc, etc.
Should all Energy Weapons be nerfed because folks can FAW 5x DBB/3x OD...?
Or maybe should FAW be addressed?
Drop it all out...step back...look at everything...eh?
Common photon torpedo
Mark DPV DPS
XII -- 2980 458
Common dual heavy cannons
Mark DPV DPS
XII -- 384 256
While yes, the photon has close to 2X the dps rating and, almost 4X the DPV.
It loses 3/4 [75%] of both values, once it strikes a shield array, just for someone not having to do a thing.
So, our example photon torpedo would essentially lose 2235 DPV and, 343.5 DPS respectively even though the speed rate wouldn't change, only the DPV would cause the DPS to follow suite.
New figures for Common photon torpedo vs shield array
Mark DPV DPS
XII -- 745 114.5
While the dual heavy cannons, would suffer from range drop off and, weapon power loss.
Now, while the new figures would still show the photon torpedo to be almost 2X that of the dual heavies, the dps shows just how ineffective its firing cycles become vs the dual heavies, once faced with having to contend with a shield array.
So, essentially your comment would be pretty much par on but, we forget that a shield array can surpass 75% DR, making it much tougher again on the torpedo, as getting this level of DR is easy vs kinetic, while a bit tougher against energy weapons.
Either way, shield DR can be extremely high against both but, is done far easier against torpedoes.
*snip*
Now, while the new figures would still show the photon torpedo to be almost 2X that of the dual heavies, the dps shows just how ineffective its firing cycles become vs the dual heavies, once faced with having to contend with a shield array.
So, essentially your comment would be pretty much par on but, we forget that a shield array can surpass 75% DR, making it much tougher again on the torpedo, as getting this level of DR is easy vs kinetic, while a bit tougher against energy weapons.
Either way, shield DR can be extremely high against both but, is done far easier against torpedoes.
Which is why transphasic torpedoes, transphasic compressors etc fetch high prices on the exchange, 40% through the shields, plus the kinetic shearing trait, etc...
Sure they do less damage than regular torps, hence the compressors being stupid money on the ex, but better thru shield rates.
<center><font size="+5"><b>Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day... Set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life...</b></size></center>
Which is why transphasic torpedoes, transphasic compressors etc fetch high prices on the exchange, 40% through the shields, plus the kinetic shearing trait, etc...
Sure they do less damage than regular torps, hence the compressors being stupid money on the ex, but better thru shield rates.
Pretty much and, why they have been dipping into the realm of implementing torpedoes, that seemingly effect shield arrays much greater, along with some torpedo skills to try and increase shield bypass easier.
Pretty much and, why they have been dipping into the realm of implementing torpedoes, that seemingly effect shield arrays much greater, along with some torpedo skills to try and increase shield bypass easier.
Rapid fire transphasic up front with your cannons, couple of compressor consoles, omega rep tier 2 kinetic shearing trait, breen cluster transphasic torp on the back with some turrets or beam arrays, charge in torp spread 3 the pack, rapid fire the target, scream past and plant a cluster torp as you pull away, the 10 3k dmg transphasic mines really really hurt, an energy drain (good one from the breen set means no boff needed) and subsystem targeting on shields, with your phasers, good chance their shields will drop enough to slam the hull up nicely.
<center><font size="+5"><b>Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day... Set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life...</b></size></center>
Why does everyone only think in absolutes? That is the problem.
Give hulls an innate 25% resistance to energy weapons.
Bump up torpedo damage by 30%.
All builds are now viable.
At least someone didnt forget to balance out the sheer difference of Hull-HP to Shield-HP. I wonder how many people jumped onto "the same way" thinking as "the same reduction of damage" forgetting that its a difference of <15k SHP to >70k HP, so you need to balance that out in a way that the effective HP are nearly equal.
That being said, what you people want is a buff for players, nothing else. I wont go into pvp. But lets keep the PvE: All ships, NPC and player, get innate energy res. At the end of the day, the only ones benefiting from it are the players, since the NPCs res will still be far in the negatives (Crystal entity anyone. Really hard to bring down, eh, with its innate resistencies to energy weapon fire...). There wont be a change of how long an ISA takes (well, pugs excluded. I like people always forgetting those guys. Not that I have any sympathie for them. People who cant be bothered to L2P should fail or at least have a hard time). But players will have higher res, and thus live longer/easier.
So just be honest, you want a buff for yourself. "Balance", as if that would happen in a game where resistencies are easily circumvented.
A Photon will do ~2x the DPS vs. Hull that a DHC will.
A DHC will do ~2x the DPS vs. Shields that a Photon will.
"Should bare hull resist Energy Weapons the same way Shields resist Torpedoes?"
It already does.
What it doesn't take into account is everything else...triggered CDs, Weapon Power, Range Penalty, Weapon Abilities, etc, etc, etc.
Should all Energy Weapons be nerfed because folks can FAW 5x DBB/3x OD...?
Or maybe should FAW be addressed?
Drop it all out...step back...look at everything...eh?
Right, at everything. Not just faw. You know very well that fiddling with faw wont change anything fundamentally. Faw hasnt changed since "DPS Escorts online" , it just got a better fundament to build upon. Not to mention, that most missions (especially the new Iconian) are very favorable for faw.
That's not the point. Shields innately resists kinetic damage.
Hull does not innately resist energy damage.
Take a piece of steal. Hit it with a high intensity laser beam, in this case a plasma cutting torch. You will punch a hole in said piece of steal.
Take another piece of steel, lay it on the ground, put a grenade on it and run, you'll just warp the steel, generally in to a nice punch through type of item.
What is not counted for in the game is the pressurization change. Hit a truck with the afore mentioned grenade/piece of metal, you'll be lucky to punch through the radiator in to the engine. Use the same on a submarine underwater... you're likely to sink the submarine.
Now take this in to the vaccum of space. The torpedo, while doing a good amount of damage, really wouldn't do a lot. The kenetic force, or concussion of it would be far more damaging to the crew. The explosion of it would be blown out in to space by the sudden pressure change of the air being sucked out of the area it hit. The main problem with torpedos here, is with the rounded tip, they have no way to punch through plating, or the hull. With this in mind, torpedo explode against the hull of the ship. Where as the energy damage from beams/cannons penetrate said hull, like a plasma torch cutting steel.
What torpedos are missing is Armor Penetration. They don't need to do more damage. They just need to ignore more armor.
Torpedos were always the big guns of star trek. Torpedos were never implied by canon to have any weakness against shields and this has always been a game thing since the days of star fleet battles. I support buffing them in any way because they're currently a joke in STO. Unfortunately the Devs think the best way to deal with this is just to make energy damage torpedos, which is nice but completely misses the over all problem, while also making it harder to fix. So basically don't hope it's ever going to get better.
Well no, energy damage type torpedos are not a bad idea. And they're really not a joke. Torpedos are a big gun. But on this you also have to remember, just like beam weapons, there is a skill not only to increase torpedo damage, but crit as well. If you're maxed in energy weapons, but don't point in to torps, then yes torps are not going to be your big gun. In this case, you'll want to wait to use them until you have a clear shot at the hull without shields.
And conanly speaking, the reason why torpedos were the big guns is because I've never once saw a shield in the show actually stop a torpedo. In the show, no matter the circumstance, the torpedo always hit the hull. good reason to make them your big gun. Also conanly speaking, ships never had their shields up ALL the time. They were always put up when needed.
So another way to go about balancing this is to just to give torpedoes 100% shield penetration so that they hit the hull every time.
I have two tac officers. 1 Fed in a patrol escort. 1 KDF in a qin heavy raptor.
My fed tac has no points in the torpedo skills, so I have to wait til I can get a clear shot to fire torps at the hull here. Moderate damage at best.
My KDF Tac has 6 ranks in starship projectile weapons, no real need to wait for a clear shot, torps will eat up shield as well. But, I still tend to wait for that clear shot... and.. well.. those points make all the difference.
Take a piece of steal. Hit it with a high intensity laser beam, in this case a plasma cutting torch. You will punch a hole in said piece of steal.
Take another piece of steel, lay it on the ground, put a grenade on it and run, you'll just warp the steel, generally in to a nice punch through type of item.
What is not counted for in the game is the pressurization change. Hit a truck with the afore mentioned grenade/piece of metal, you'll be lucky to punch through the radiator in to the engine. Use the same on a submarine underwater... you're likely to sink the submarine.
Now take this in to the vaccum of space. The torpedo, while doing a good amount of damage, really wouldn't do a lot. The kenetic force, or concussion of it would be far more damaging to the crew. The explosion of it would be blown out in to space by the sudden pressure change of the air being sucked out of the area it hit. The main problem with torpedos here, is with the rounded tip, they have no way to punch through plating, or the hull. With this in mind, torpedo explode against the hull of the ship. Where as the energy damage from beams/cannons penetrate said hull, like a plasma torch cutting steel.
What torpedos are missing is Armor Penetration. They don't need to do more damage. They just need to ignore more armor.
This information is way incorrect, we aren't using actual torpedoes like modern day equivalents, they are using energy type weapons called torpedoes.
Well no, energy damage type torpedos are not a bad idea. And they're really not a joke. Torpedos are a big gun. But on this you also have to remember, just like beam weapons, there is a skill not only to increase torpedo damage, but crit as well. If you're maxed in energy weapons, but don't point in to torps, then yes torps are not going to be your big gun. In this case, you'll want to wait to use them until you have a clear shot at the hull without shields.
And conanly speaking, the reason why torpedos were the big guns is because I've never once saw a shield in the show actually stop a torpedo. In the show, no matter the circumstance, the torpedo always hit the hull. good reason to make them your big gun. Also conanly speaking, ships never had their shields up ALL the time. They were always put up when needed.
So another way to go about balancing this is to just to give torpedoes 100% shield penetration so that they hit the hull every time.
I have two tac officers. 1 Fed in a patrol escort. 1 KDF in a qin heavy raptor.
My fed tac has no points in the torpedo skills, so I have to wait til I can get a clear shot to fire torps at the hull here. Moderate damage at best.
My KDF Tac has 6 ranks in starship projectile weapons, no real need to wait for a clear shot, torps will eat up shield as well. But, I still tend to wait for that clear shot... and.. well.. those points make all the difference.
100% shield bypass for all torpedoes? Are you out of your mind or, drunk?
Matter/Anti-Matter reaction is mutual destruction, the whole E=MC^2 thing... BANG...
An outward rush of heat energy and kinetic damage from other matter in the vicinity of the reaction being accelerated to C Fractional values, basically the torps casing is turned into near light speed atomic shrapnel.
Ships take severe damage from near misses because its a blast area affect, from the original matter/anti-matter reaction point.
You reduce said damage by keeping the blast further from your ship, so the torp hits your shields, detonates away from the hull, rather than hitting the hull and bang or even worse, punching though the hull and bang, inside the ship.
Forget TV show plot can on, and check out what said canon is actually referring to in scientific terms. Matter/anti-Matter is just fancy high end explosive, H-bomb Plus.
Edit.
A m/am reaction would also put out large quantities of hard radiation, gamma, xrays, radio, as well as heat and visible light...
Unshielded crew members close to a torp blast area would suffer burns and radiation sickness if they survived the blast it's self
The radiation part is even mentioned in canon, think STVI or II did. Other than that you are correct, but photon torpedoes aren't supposed to work like cannon shots and "punch" through armour, it's a fuzzy, energy based reaction and a kaboom that, of course, creates some kind of kinetic wave. But STO portrays it as if we're shooting projectiles to sink the other ship.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
It makes sense that energy weapons whittle away the shields whilst doing some hull damamge and torps do great kinetic damage which is lessened by shields.
So... tear the shields away THEN fre your torps... isn't that the way its supposed to work?
The radiation part is even mentioned in canon, think STVI or II did. Other than that you are correct, but photon torpedoes aren't supposed to work like cannon shots and "punch" through armour, it's a fuzzy, energy based reaction and a kaboom that, of course, creates some kind of kinetic wave. But STO portrays it as if we're shooting projectiles to sink the other ship.
Pretty sure if you check the series/movies, there are a number of scenes showing the torp room, with its launchers, and the casings of torps being loaded.
Whatever is supposedly going on in those things when fired, before 'impact' produces a glowy ball, but somewhere in there is a material device, with circuitry etc, to keep the matter/anti-matter apart until you want it to go boom, a drive un it, targeting package, etc.
It IS a projectile, a big exploding guided self propelled projectile, fired from a launcher in a torpedo room.
<center><font size="+5"><b>Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day... Set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life...</b></size></center>
Pretty sure if you check the series/movies, there are a number of scenes showing the torp room, with its launchers, and the casings of torps being loaded.
Whatever is supposedly going on in those things when fired, before 'impact' produces a glowy ball, but somewhere in there is a material device, with circuitry etc, to keep the matter/anti-matter apart until you want it to go boom, a drive un it, targeting package, etc.
It IS a projectile, a big exploding guided self propelled projectile, fired from a launcher in a torpedo room.
Of course they are casings. But that doesn't change my point, they aren't supposed to be working like cannon balls, that's all I'm saying.
The only exception in STO is the Hargh'peng torpedo. It's even shaped triangular and it seems/"feels" as if it would punch through the hull to detonate from within.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
Of course they are casings. But that doesn't change my point, they aren't supposed to be working like cannon balls, that's all I'm saying.
The only exception in STO is the Hargh'peng torpedo. It's even shaped triangular and it seems/"feels" as if it would punch through the hull to detonate from within.
I never said they worked like cannon balls, that was an analogy for why shields stop torps...
The shield, spaced from the hull is the 'rubber sheet' that stops the projectile from hitting the hull and detonating against it, and stops the ejecta from the explosion to a certain degree.
I'f i'd mentioned throwing cusdard pies at a curtain compaired to firing a laser at it, would you assume I meant topedos were made of splashy edible goo?
*sigh*
<center><font size="+5"><b>Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day... Set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life...</b></size></center>
I never said they worked like cannon balls, that was an analogy for why shields stop torps...
The shield, spaced from the hull is the 'rubber sheet' that stops the projectile from hitting the hull and detonating against it, and stops the ejecta from the explosion to a certain degree.
I'f i'd mentioned throwing cusdard pies at a curtain compaired to firing a laser at it, would you assume I meant topedos were made of splashy edible goo?
*sigh*
Considering the phased biomatter weapons in STO that are literally supposed to be snot guns, that wouldn't be too far off :P
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
Considering the phased biomatter weapons in STO that are literally supposed to be snot guns, that wouldn't be too far off :P
Hmmm, the Iconian Deep Frozen Space Custard Dual Cannon Mk XIV [Acc] [Dmg] [Splat]... splatters your enemy's windows and sensor dishes with a 5 ft thick layer of deep frozen space custard, rendering them totally blind in combat...
<center><font size="+5"><b>Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day... Set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life...</b></size></center>
This information is way incorrect, we aren't using actual torpedoes like modern day equivalents, they are using energy type weapons called torpedoes.
100% shield bypass for all torpedoes? Are you out of your mind or, drunk?
Yeah its an enery type weapon. So is a Magnesium Tipped Bullet(tracer Round), Phosphorus Grenade(Thermite), Molotov Cocktail, the Deleted Uranium Anti-Armor Tank Round.
Tracer Round, the pretty light you see when you fire a torpedo.
Phosphorus, Think Plasma here.
Molotov Coxktail: Exothermitc Induction Field
Deleted Uranium: Har'peng/Plasma Hybrid. Pentrates then explodes.
Depleted uranium is favored for the penetrator because it is self-sharpening and pyrophoric. On impact with a hard target, such as an armored vehicle, the nose of the rod fractures in such a way that it remains sharp. The impact and subsequent release of heat energy causes it to disintegrate to dust and burn when it reaches air because of its pyrophoric properties.
When a DU penetrator reaches the interior of an armored vehicle it catches fire, often igniting ammunition and fuel, killing the crew and possibly causing the vehicle to explode. DU is used by the U.S. Army in 120 mm or 105 mm cannons employed on the M1 Abrams tank. The Russian military has used DU ammunition in tank main gun ammunition since the late 1970s, mostly for the 115 mm guns in the T-62 tank and the 125 mm guns in the T-64, T-72, T-80, and T-90 tanks.
So as I said in my prvious post. There are two ways to improve the torpedos we have.
A: Is to give them more Hull Penetration. Think on it this way. Our torpedos right now are little more than laying a firecracker in the palm of you hand and setting it out. You burn your hand. Close your hand around the same fire cracker and set it off. Well, your signifigant other will be opening bottle for you from then on.
B)Is to give them 100% Shield Penetration. On this one, they will strike the hull every time. But due to this you'd have a limited number of Torpedo's. At max I'd say 1 fore and 1 aft. Wouldn't want torp boats to be to OP and out do the pretty streamers of the beam dancers.
photon torpedo's are a matter anti matter explosion much like a warp core Breech
That's energy damage and every other sort of damage you can think up
Its not a cannon ball..................But I can be flanked thru my 360 degree shield so ...............
Jellico....Engineer ground.....Da'val Romulan space Sci
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
Comments
I think weakened shields should have less resistance, i also think shield power level should affect resistance and/ or bleed through. But that is another discussion.
A 25% resistance to projectile weapons wouldn't be very useful, allow me to explain why... Diminishing Returns.
You seem to like things simple so there you are. ^^
Lets take a cruiser with 75% resists for example, when calculating diminshing returns it would add almost nothing maybe 1-2% more kinetic resists. Not even enough to be noticed. This holds true for almost anyone thats running Neutronium Consoles and lets face it, anyone with two brain cells already is.
So you can either A.) Add considerably more kinetic resists or B.) Make it Invulnerable to 25% kinetic damage and Resistances are calculated seperately. Either choice ends badly for anyone shooting at cruisers.
The trouble with any of the solutions mentioned in this thread is that hull resistances can be added at will. Shields have fixed resistances that cannot be modified by players. There isnt a Neutronium console for Shields... But now that i think about it perhaps there should be. Might make me put actual science consoles in those slots for once! :rolleyes:
Any change you make to hull resistance will stack exponentially with with what players can already do pretty easily. While Shield changes are independant of anything the player can do.
Sounds reasonable imo.
Well, yes and no, considering ships as of late, usually have hulls built from a strong resistant material, it would make sense for them to have an innate DR but, alas they do not.
Shields DR changes with a lot of things, that the player has control of, it is not just a single DR most of the time so, there is ways to make it like we have neutronium on our shields.
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I remember that. That bro was awesome and left with "I'm not the STO guy anymore". All the good guys left.
That sentence sums up how even some devs gave up on this shovelware.
Shield power levels can then boost that even more if you have that high.
I really hate how shields behave like a yoyo in the game. They go up and down so fast it's a bit lame. I much rather see much stronger shields that take a while to punch trough but regen slower (and rework tactical team).
That way if you're smart you'll turn to a different shield facing if incoming damage is about to breach your shields.
Torps should wreck your hull though, so balance it with that.
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It is a peculiar phenomenon that we can imagine events that defy the laws of the universe.
Speaking of STVI, it took a mere 6 torpedoes to eradicate the Enterprises shields, while a 7th torpedo blasted straight thru the saucer.
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shield resist is 90% (normally) that means 1k dmg only does 100 to shields capacity while 100 bleedthrough (normal standard without traits/buffs)
i think beams should suffer like 20%-35% standard penalty while DEM could be used to alter that.
cannons however should not suffer this penalty cause they already are quite penaltied by range.
but i think beams should. just for the sake of having more canon setups with torps.
also i think the shields should be changed, so that lower capacity also means incresed innate bleedthrough up to 25% max bleedthrough if only 5% facing cap is left.
If you mean "ACT says I am doing more DPS so my build is awesome", which is the reason that people with FAW builds tout them as being so great, sure. The question is, does that FAW build KILL things quickly? ACT and the combat log show how much damage is being done, but it doesn't differentiate between damage spread across 10 targets without killing them and directed forward damage that actually removes the target from the map.
Sandpapering with FAW is great for some missions, but not others. For Crystalline Catastrophe, a torp spread/cannon scatter build will beat the FAW build almost every time, and even when it doesn't, the ships using it will end the scenario faster so you can move on to something else. The same is true of most patrol missions where you are hitting 3-4 ships at a time and higher FAW is wasting shots.
Basically, the reasoning behind FAW's greatness is a bit flawed. It works, sure, and is cheap to implement, but it's not the most efficient way to actually play the game.
If BFAW was actually a DPS loss against single targets, perhaps, but for every question, except what to shoot aceton assimilators with when within 5km, the answer is always BFAW.
Building a pure beam or torpedo boat should be harder than building a canon boat (note the one 'n'). Beam boats are as much an aberrant playstyle as torp boats, just much more popular because there are no drawbacks to doing energy and only energy damage whereas shields provide a massive disincentive to pure kinetic builds.
A DHC will do ~2x the DPS vs. Shields that a Photon will.
"Should bare hull resist Energy Weapons the same way Shields resist Torpedoes?"
It already does.
What it doesn't take into account is everything else...triggered CDs, Weapon Power, Range Penalty, Weapon Abilities, etc, etc, etc.
Should all Energy Weapons be nerfed because folks can FAW 5x DBB/3x OD...?
Or maybe should FAW be addressed?
Drop it all out...step back...look at everything...eh?
Common photon torpedo
Mark DPV DPS
XII -- 2980 458
Common dual heavy cannons
Mark DPV DPS
XII -- 384 256
While yes, the photon has close to 2X the dps rating and, almost 4X the DPV.
It loses 3/4 [75%] of both values, once it strikes a shield array, just for someone not having to do a thing.
So, our example photon torpedo would essentially lose 2235 DPV and, 343.5 DPS respectively even though the speed rate wouldn't change, only the DPV would cause the DPS to follow suite.
New figures for Common photon torpedo vs shield array
Mark DPV DPS
XII -- 745 114.5
While the dual heavy cannons, would suffer from range drop off and, weapon power loss.
Now, while the new figures would still show the photon torpedo to be almost 2X that of the dual heavies, the dps shows just how ineffective its firing cycles become vs the dual heavies, once faced with having to contend with a shield array.
So, essentially your comment would be pretty much par on but, we forget that a shield array can surpass 75% DR, making it much tougher again on the torpedo, as getting this level of DR is easy vs kinetic, while a bit tougher against energy weapons.
Either way, shield DR can be extremely high against both but, is done far easier against torpedoes.
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Which is why transphasic torpedoes, transphasic compressors etc fetch high prices on the exchange, 40% through the shields, plus the kinetic shearing trait, etc...
Sure they do less damage than regular torps, hence the compressors being stupid money on the ex, but better thru shield rates.
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Pretty much and, why they have been dipping into the realm of implementing torpedoes, that seemingly effect shield arrays much greater, along with some torpedo skills to try and increase shield bypass easier.
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Rapid fire transphasic up front with your cannons, couple of compressor consoles, omega rep tier 2 kinetic shearing trait, breen cluster transphasic torp on the back with some turrets or beam arrays, charge in torp spread 3 the pack, rapid fire the target, scream past and plant a cluster torp as you pull away, the 10 3k dmg transphasic mines really really hurt, an energy drain (good one from the breen set means no boff needed) and subsystem targeting on shields, with your phasers, good chance their shields will drop enough to slam the hull up nicely.
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At least someone didnt forget to balance out the sheer difference of Hull-HP to Shield-HP. I wonder how many people jumped onto "the same way" thinking as "the same reduction of damage" forgetting that its a difference of <15k SHP to >70k HP, so you need to balance that out in a way that the effective HP are nearly equal.
That being said, what you people want is a buff for players, nothing else. I wont go into pvp. But lets keep the PvE: All ships, NPC and player, get innate energy res. At the end of the day, the only ones benefiting from it are the players, since the NPCs res will still be far in the negatives (Crystal entity anyone. Really hard to bring down, eh, with its innate resistencies to energy weapon fire...). There wont be a change of how long an ISA takes (well, pugs excluded. I like people always forgetting those guys. Not that I have any sympathie for them. People who cant be bothered to L2P should fail or at least have a hard time). But players will have higher res, and thus live longer/easier.
So just be honest, you want a buff for yourself. "Balance", as if that would happen in a game where resistencies are easily circumvented.
Right, at everything. Not just faw. You know very well that fiddling with faw wont change anything fundamentally. Faw hasnt changed since "DPS Escorts online"
Take a piece of steal. Hit it with a high intensity laser beam, in this case a plasma cutting torch. You will punch a hole in said piece of steal.
Take another piece of steel, lay it on the ground, put a grenade on it and run, you'll just warp the steel, generally in to a nice punch through type of item.
What is not counted for in the game is the pressurization change. Hit a truck with the afore mentioned grenade/piece of metal, you'll be lucky to punch through the radiator in to the engine. Use the same on a submarine underwater... you're likely to sink the submarine.
Now take this in to the vaccum of space. The torpedo, while doing a good amount of damage, really wouldn't do a lot. The kenetic force, or concussion of it would be far more damaging to the crew. The explosion of it would be blown out in to space by the sudden pressure change of the air being sucked out of the area it hit. The main problem with torpedos here, is with the rounded tip, they have no way to punch through plating, or the hull. With this in mind, torpedo explode against the hull of the ship. Where as the energy damage from beams/cannons penetrate said hull, like a plasma torch cutting steel.
What torpedos are missing is Armor Penetration. They don't need to do more damage. They just need to ignore more armor.
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And conanly speaking, the reason why torpedos were the big guns is because I've never once saw a shield in the show actually stop a torpedo. In the show, no matter the circumstance, the torpedo always hit the hull. good reason to make them your big gun. Also conanly speaking, ships never had their shields up ALL the time. They were always put up when needed.
So another way to go about balancing this is to just to give torpedoes 100% shield penetration so that they hit the hull every time.
I have two tac officers. 1 Fed in a patrol escort. 1 KDF in a qin heavy raptor.
My fed tac has no points in the torpedo skills, so I have to wait til I can get a clear shot to fire torps at the hull here. Moderate damage at best.
My KDF Tac has 6 ranks in starship projectile weapons, no real need to wait for a clear shot, torps will eat up shield as well. But, I still tend to wait for that clear shot... and.. well.. those points make all the difference.
This information is way incorrect, we aren't using actual torpedoes like modern day equivalents, they are using energy type weapons called torpedoes.
100% shield bypass for all torpedoes? Are you out of your mind or, drunk?
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The radiation part is even mentioned in canon, think STVI or II did. Other than that you are correct, but photon torpedoes aren't supposed to work like cannon shots and "punch" through armour, it's a fuzzy, energy based reaction and a kaboom that, of course, creates some kind of kinetic wave. But STO portrays it as if we're shooting projectiles to sink the other ship.
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So... tear the shields away THEN fre your torps... isn't that the way its supposed to work?
Pretty sure if you check the series/movies, there are a number of scenes showing the torp room, with its launchers, and the casings of torps being loaded.
Whatever is supposedly going on in those things when fired, before 'impact' produces a glowy ball, but somewhere in there is a material device, with circuitry etc, to keep the matter/anti-matter apart until you want it to go boom, a drive un it, targeting package, etc.
It IS a projectile, a big exploding guided self propelled projectile, fired from a launcher in a torpedo room.
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Of course they are casings. But that doesn't change my point, they aren't supposed to be working like cannon balls, that's all I'm saying.
The only exception in STO is the Hargh'peng torpedo. It's even shaped triangular and it seems/"feels" as if it would punch through the hull to detonate from within.
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I never said they worked like cannon balls, that was an analogy for why shields stop torps...
The shield, spaced from the hull is the 'rubber sheet' that stops the projectile from hitting the hull and detonating against it, and stops the ejecta from the explosion to a certain degree.
I'f i'd mentioned throwing cusdard pies at a curtain compaired to firing a laser at it, would you assume I meant topedos were made of splashy edible goo?
*sigh*
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Considering the phased biomatter weapons in STO that are literally supposed to be snot guns, that wouldn't be too far off :P
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Hmmm, the Iconian Deep Frozen Space Custard Dual Cannon Mk XIV [Acc] [Dmg] [Splat]... splatters your enemy's windows and sensor dishes with a 5 ft thick layer of deep frozen space custard, rendering them totally blind in combat...
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Yeah its an enery type weapon. So is a Magnesium Tipped Bullet(tracer Round), Phosphorus Grenade(Thermite), Molotov Cocktail, the Deleted Uranium Anti-Armor Tank Round.
Tracer Round, the pretty light you see when you fire a torpedo.
Phosphorus, Think Plasma here.
Molotov Coxktail: Exothermitc Induction Field
Deleted Uranium: Har'peng/Plasma Hybrid. Pentrates then explodes.
Depleted uranium is favored for the penetrator because it is self-sharpening and pyrophoric. On impact with a hard target, such as an armored vehicle, the nose of the rod fractures in such a way that it remains sharp. The impact and subsequent release of heat energy causes it to disintegrate to dust and burn when it reaches air because of its pyrophoric properties.
When a DU penetrator reaches the interior of an armored vehicle it catches fire, often igniting ammunition and fuel, killing the crew and possibly causing the vehicle to explode. DU is used by the U.S. Army in 120 mm or 105 mm cannons employed on the M1 Abrams tank. The Russian military has used DU ammunition in tank main gun ammunition since the late 1970s, mostly for the 115 mm guns in the T-62 tank and the 125 mm guns in the T-64, T-72, T-80, and T-90 tanks.
So as I said in my prvious post. There are two ways to improve the torpedos we have.
A: Is to give them more Hull Penetration. Think on it this way. Our torpedos right now are little more than laying a firecracker in the palm of you hand and setting it out. You burn your hand. Close your hand around the same fire cracker and set it off. Well, your signifigant other will be opening bottle for you from then on.
B)Is to give them 100% Shield Penetration. On this one, they will strike the hull every time. But due to this you'd have a limited number of Torpedo's. At max I'd say 1 fore and 1 aft. Wouldn't want torp boats to be to OP and out do the pretty streamers of the beam dancers.
That's energy damage and every other sort of damage you can think up
Its not a cannon ball..................But I can be flanked thru my 360 degree shield so ...............
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