STFs and the modern STO

saboreth · April 2015

I remember when STFs were exploding with players anxious to get in there and take care of bidness. Now, they're all ghost towns. I see maybe two that still get played - the popular conduit and once in a while, Fed/KDF Starbase incursion. After that, good luck getting into one - nobody's doing them, or doing them in such small numbers that they rarely launch.

What happened? How do we bring STFs back? :O

(No, I don't think the game is shutting down after the Iconian War thing, before anyone tries that line. I don't believe that even remotely. But what happened to STFs in general, that much I'm interested in.)

virusdancer · April 2015

saboreth wrote: »

What happened? How do we bring STFs back? :O

Hrmmm....

virusdancer wrote: »

Got a link to that?

Cause you know, everybody's got their reasons for why the queues are the way they are...and well, imho, the queues being the way they are started long before DR was ever mentioned. It was a combination of things, which had little to do with the queues being something one could pug or not...though the nature of some players in pugs could make things far more difficult than necessary.

The #'s are not a ranking, rather they are just a means of organization.

#1) For those that are running them to get E-Marks for gear, they only have to run them so many times to get those E-Marks for gear. Then they no longer have to run them. Without a constant flow of new players or new characters that want those E-Marks, then the queues will wither. If there's no demand, there's no supply of players. This is going to work toward killing the queues.

#2) Above and beyond this though, Cryptic has been making E-Marks more and more available outside of queues. This started before DR, continued with DR, since DR, and they're even adding in the 100:1 trade-in for Marks to E-Marks with Season 10. So even though the demand for E-Marks may be at the same level as it was in #1, the demand to get them from running queues is nowhere what it might have been. In some cases, the ability to earn the E-Marks outside of the queues blows away the ability to earn them inside the queues. For others, earning them outside the queues offers less pressure and a more casual approach. This is going to work toward killing the queues.

#3) Speaking of Marks, though, it's not just about the E-Marks. Cryptic also added in the Daily Bonus Boxes which reward additional Marks to make it easier for folks to do their Reputation Projects without having to hit up any queues for the Marks. There are also a variety of missions that reward the Marks and even various queues that provide ways to grab a selection of Marks. All sorts of things that let players avoid the queues to get what they're looking for, yeah? The Delta Recruitment event even added in the Marks one could grab from having a Delta Recruit run through the story content as an account unlock. Making things easier to get outside of the queues for many...this is going to work toward killing the queues.

#4) Along similar lines, even before Delta Rising it was far easier/efficient, whatever positive adjective you want to use, to get Dilithium from activities outside of a queue than in it. With the "nerf" of the Dil in the queues while adding Dil to missions all over the place, this served further to draw those seeking Dilithium from the queues to elsewhere. This is going to work toward killing the queues.

#5) Following along that thought process, there were folks that ran queues hoping to get decent loot drops they could sell on the Exchange. Or maybe they just hoped for drops of stuff they wanted, eh? Then there was the revamp of the R&D system and one didn't quite need to depend on those loot drops for either. This is going to work toward killing the queues.

#6) Course, the public queues had started to die off long before much of that - because of player behavior. There would be the folks afking/leeching/hoping to be carried, and some folks just didn't find that to be fun, yeah? So more and more folks sought out people that were prepared and looking to do the actual run, right? More and more folks headed off to various channels to do their runs. This is going to work toward killing the queues.

#7) Course, those folks weren't the only folks driving folks away from the queues. Some people thought it funny to troll people running the queues. Through a myriad of actions, they'd cause all sorts of problems for groups. So more and more folks sought out people that were not going to troll, finding ways to avoid those trolls, yeah? More and more folks headed off to various channels to do their runs. This is going to work toward killing the queues.

#8) Sure, but what about R&D Mats? Those VR Mats that one can only get from the queues? Well, the price of those on the Exchange has dropped severely since their introduction. Cause a bunch of those folks doing their channel/friends/fleet runs and so forth are selling them. There's also the R&D Assistance as well as the R&D Boxes. There are R&D Promo Events (there's another one coming up the third week of May). But still, if one wanted to procure them from runs, wouldn't it get into the situation of wanting to avoid the folks leeching/trolling/ruining and so they'd be hitting up various channels themselves? This is going to work toward killing the queues.

That combination of dwindling need to bother with queues and players themselves ruining runs...how could the queues not continue dying off?

Outside of the Elites, and even with some of the Elites...they're something that's easy to pug as long as folks are halfway prepared and there's no dead weight nor trolling going on there.

All sorts of reasons, otherwise, why the public queues are dying off...yet, as you mention - channels are thriving. Some folks just like running the content, yeah? And well, the thing stopping them from enjoying those runs would be other players...so they find players that won't do that.

So, imho, the biggest cause of the death of the public queues would be players...

...we don't.

millimidget · April 2015

saboreth wrote: »

How do we bring STFs back?

You don't.

virusdancer wrote: »

...we don't.

I swear I didn't see that until after I posted my response.

Also, there's one thing you've left out of that mostly-comprehensive explanation: the pure indifference matchmaking as a mechanic engenders. There's no need to talk to teammates because the matchmaker will always find more for you.

EDIT: And another: the elitism. There's an expectation that for having accepted the queue pop, you're entitled to some rewards.

saboreth · April 2015

Well, that's just disheartening as all get out.

millimidget · April 2015

saboreth wrote: »

Well, that's just disheartening as all get out.

The natural evolution of the matchmaker is to drive people into using private groups.

virusdancer · April 2015

millimidget wrote: »

Also, there's one thing you've left out...

Heh, there are probably several things I forgot there. I know I thought of a couple the other day after posting that, but I forgot them already.

saboreth wrote: »

Well, that's just disheartening as all get out.

There are these guys...

Star Trek Battles channel (NOT for high DPSers)
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1026351

...and these guys...

Official DPS League & DPS Channels Thread
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1347981

...as well as various fleets and channels where they do stuff.

All sorts of folks are doing all sorts of stuff cause they want to...while avoiding some of the issues of the public queues.

keravnios · April 2015

Problem I see is that Star Trek Online is 75% a franchise and 25% a game. If the series never existed, the game would not come to be. And really we will see that now that they come to end the iconian war they will run out of "ideas". Less Trek stars to sell to the folks.

I'm disapointed in this, sorry if this has nothing to do with queues but Virusdancer did cover pretty much everything, nothing more to say.

thecosmic1 · April 2015

keravnios wrote: »

Problem I see is that Star Trek Online is 75% a franchise and 25% a game. If the series never existed, the game would not come to be. And really we will see that now that they come to end the iconian war they will run out of "ideas". Less Trek stars to sell to the folks.

I'm disapointed in this, sorry if this has nothing to do with queues but Virusdancer did cover pretty much everything, nothing more to say.

The franchise wrote 725 episodes, 12 movies, hundreds of comic books, and I have no idea how many hundreds of novels over the last 5 decades. Coming up with ideas is not a problem.

saboreth · April 2015

^ what he said. This is not the end of STO. I don't even understand how people are coming to that conclusion. They only have personal bias or assumptions to support it and that proves truly nothing. Why can't people just sit back and enjoy the ride without all the bitter doomsaying?

narthais · April 2015

Thats the thing about doomsayers, if they keep shouting 'the end is nigh' Eventually they'll be right.

deaftravis05 · April 2015

the queues are full... of players who are doing private matches because of pugs who play way above their skill level.

duncanidaho11 · April 2015

saboreth wrote: »

^ what he said. This is not the end of STO. I don't even understand how people are coming to that conclusion. They only have personal bias or assumptions to support it and that proves truly nothing. Why can't people just sit back and enjoy the ride without all the bitter doomsaying?

They look at something they don't approve of and come up with reasons for why in the end the universe will juisty their opinion. Its a coping/escape mechanism.

duncanidaho11 · April 2015

deaftravis05 wrote: »

the queues are full... of players who are doing private matches because of pugs who play way above their skill level.

...Here's a problem I have with this whole topic.

When was the last time you weren't able to find a game in Inf Space or the CCA? The system not working would be a problem worth an endless series forum posts, the system exhibiting a skewed distribution is...just people (it happens in every multiplayer game, though most cut dead PVE's to consolidate the population. STO's "issue" is that except in rare instances it leaves it all in.)

deaftravis05 · April 2015

duncanidaho11 wrote: »

...Here's a problem I have with this whole topic.

When was the last time you weren't able to find a game in Inf Space or the CCA? The system not working would be a problem worth an endless series forum posts, the system exhibiting a skewed distribution is...just people (it happens in every multiplayer game, though most cut dead PVE's to consolidate the population. STO's "issue" is that except in rare instances it leaves it all in.)

well, there are too many queues, I'll agree on that. They need to be updated as the war changes

virusdancer · April 2015

duncanidaho11 wrote: »

...Here's a problem I have with this whole topic.

When was the last time you weren't able to find a game in Inf Space or the CCA? The system not working would be a problem worth an endless series forum posts, the system exhibiting a skewed distribution is...just people (it happens in every multiplayer game, though most cut dead PVE's to consolidate the population. STO's "issue" is that except in rare instances it leaves it all in.)

Still wonder what it would be like if the queues were random based on Reputation attached to them...including the possibility of ending up in a Select-A-Mark queue.

duncanidaho11 · April 2015

deaftravis05 wrote: »

well, there are too many queues, I'll agree on that. They need to be updated as the war changes

I'd love to see Cryptic ape the Weekend playlist format. Take Mine Trap for instance. Its a big, elaborate, ground PVE with a unique gameplay concept in STO. Therefore we should want to play it, but its not worth it right now to try to find a game. You could try queuing, but your time would be more productively spent in a ground battlezone or Bug Hunt (the empty queue is a self-reinforcing problem. People don't find games so they don't bother looking in the first place.)

But what if you boost the rewards up for a limited time (while cutting the queue during normal operations to consolidate the players drifting through the various under-populated queues)? The occasion generates interest in Mine Trap but without any expectation of long-term interest. Cryptic just needs to make an event, not a stable state (ie. a healthy queue). And as merely a weekend playlist crpytic wouldn't obligated to provide unique, developer-intensive, reward items (bonus marks, skill, and dil will do) as they do with the multi-week mirror/crystaline events.

Repeat for other dead/under-utilized Queues (while still keeping the private match open for those who REALLY want to have their Big Dig right now) to create a standing rotation that shows up perhaps every other weekend around the other types of rewards (ex. global skill, R+D, and dilithium.)

duncanidaho11 · April 2015

virusdancer wrote: »

Still wonder what it would be like if the queues were random based on Reputation attached to them...including the possibility of ending up in a Select-A-Mark queue.

I think you'd have a similar problem as Halo 2's playlists had: people quitting if they don't get their favorite map/gametype. Then cryptic would look into a compromise, say a voting system (Halo 3) and compromise that further to try to give people more options (Halo Reach.) Still, the best they could hope for is a tolerable situation while governming people's play time (which is only justifiable when you assume that people can't make fair games on their own, which when you can setup the match as Red Team: tanks, Blue team: rocks is quite so. With STO, its more a question of conflicting preferences between individuals and mob tendencies.)

zeatrex · April 2015

I don't understand the people that blame the number of STFs that are playable.

1. If we didn't have this many, then people would be complaining about no content.
2. When we have this many, people complain about having too many.

Makes no damn sense.

I tell you why people do not queue for STFs, it isn't because of all the things in the past or whatever the TRIBBLE you all want to make up. NO! It is because people queue for these things knowing the following failures they bring;

1. They do not have the gear for the advanced/elites.
2. They have no idea what they are doing 90% of the times.
3. They die from mobs with 1-hit even against basic mobs that are around.
4. Everyone most of the time is a cruiser with no DPS to kill anything whatsoever.
5. People coming in on Science ships with no CC abilities at all.
6. No one heals, knowing a healer is all because all have engineering/science abilities to do it.

You go into the very easy and standard Fleet Starbase 5-man alert and you get 3 level 5-15 players and 2 level 60s in a level 59-60 match. Not even with 3 lvl 5-15s but just with 2 level 5-15s it is an automatic waste of time and you won't win. If the other 2 level 60s aren't crazy TRIBBLE high DPS (which they aren't because most of the time they are the damn T6 battlecruisers) - it's pointless. Why the heck are people who are level 5-15 even queuing for alerts to begin with? You should be doing the damn missions and leveling your damn toon up! Start doing the queues when you are level 20+ at least.

The problem is not how the game has turned out, or how it is now. The problem is the players, it is because the players you will more likely get teamed with will fail. You don't have to come over here with a huge scientific explanation full of countless paragraphs and comparison to know the real reason why people do not queue for STFs.

The STFs should be limited to the tier your gear is, if you are all Very Rare + level 50+ you can get into Advanced. If you are level 50+ with all Green and/or Common gear, you can't get in it. If you are level 50+ with Very Rare and Epic you can get into Elites.

Just by looking at people's ships when the match starts let's you know - yep this is going to be a waste of my time. It is sad, but it is true. You have to face that fact. You go into a Fleet Alert and see an NX, you know you either going to lose or get close to losing unless you are a crazy DPSer. Even if you are or not, you are sitting there hoping someone other then the NX is.

That is the problem with STFs and the main things people do not point out and leave out, and I seriously do not understand why.

virusdancer · April 2015

duncanidaho11 wrote: »

I think you'd have a similar problem as Halo 2's playlists had: people quitting if they don't get their favorite map/gametype. Then cryptic would look into a compromise, say a voting system (Halo 3) and compromise that further to try to give people more options (Halo Reach.) Still, the best they could hope for is a tolerable situation while governming people's play time (which is only justifiable when you assume that people can't make fair games on their own, which when you can setup the match as Red Team: tanks, Blue team: rocks is quite so. With STO, its more a question of conflicting preferences between individuals and mob tendencies.)

The compromise would already exist in the form of doing a private queue for whatever somebody wanted to do...

zeatrex wrote: »

Just by looking at people's ships when the match starts let's you know - yep this is going to be a waste of my time. It is sad, but it is true. You have to face that fact.

Except it's not true. But thanks for playing!

deaftravis05 · April 2015

zeatrex wrote: »

I don't understand the people that blame the number of STFs that are playable.

1. If we didn't have this many, then people would be complaining about no content.
2. When we have this many, people complain about having too many.

Makes no damn sense.

I tell you why people do not queues for STFs, it isn't because of all the things in the past or whatever the TRIBBLE you all want to make up. NO! It is because people queue for these things for the following reasons;

1. They do not have the gear for the advanced/elites.
2. They have no idea what they are doing 90% of the times.
3. They die from mobs with 1-hit but even basic mobs that are around.
4. Everyone most of the time is a cruiser with no DPS to kill anything whatsoever.
5. People coming in on Science ships with no CC abilities at all.
6. No one heals, knowing a healer is all because all has engineering/science abilities to do it.

You go into the very easy and standard Fleet Starbase 5-man alert and you get 3 level 5-15 players and 2 level 60s. Not even with 3 lvl 5-15s but just with 2 level 5-15s it is an automatic waste of time and you won't win. If the other 2 level 60s aren't crazy TRIBBLE high DPS - it's pointless. Why the heck are people who are level 5-15 even queuing for alerts to begin with? You should be doing the damn missions and leveling you damn toon up! Start doing the queues when you are level 20+ at least.

The problem is not how the game has turned out, or how it is now. The problem is the players, it is because the players you will more likely get teamed with will fail. You don't have to come over here with a huge scientific explanation full of countless paragraphs and comparison to know the real reason why people do not queue for STFs.

The STFs should be limited to the tier your gear is, if you are all Very Rare + level 50+ you can get into Advanced. If you are level 50+ with all Green and/or Common gear, you can't get in it. If you are level 50+ with Very Rare with Epic you can get into Elites.

Just by looking at people's ships when the match starts let's you know - yep this is going to be a waste of my time. It is sad, but it is true. You have to face that fact. You go into a Fleet Alert and see an NX, you know you either going to lose or get close to losing unless you are a crazy DPSer. Even if you are or not, you are sitting there hoping someone other then the NX is.

That is the problem with STFs and the main things people do not point out and leave out, and I seriously do not understand why.

heh... I've done that... the fleet alert as the only high dpser and everyone else was like 5-15... bawhahahaha... against the Romulans...

Ah that was fun and yes we won. with about 120 seconds to go...

the difference though, that i'm a 30k dsper... but my entire team knew how to play... so while they weren't able to punch hard, they could still punch.

There really should be some sort of gatekeeper that prevents you from doing the advanced, elite content until you've reached a certain dps or healed a certain amount of damage for players.

jorantomalak · April 2015

keravnios wrote: »

Problem I see is that Star Trek Online is 75% a franchise and 25% a game. If the series never existed, the game would not come to be. And really we will see that now that they come to end the iconian war they will run out of "ideas". Less Trek stars to sell to the folks.

I'm disapointed in this, sorry if this has nothing to do with queues but Virusdancer did cover pretty much everything, nothing more to say.

Imagination my friend thats what sparks creativity

And we still have the gamma quadrant to explore the dominion is still rebuilding thier forces for a as yet unknown reason there is alot left to be told in the star trek universe.

zeatrex · April 2015

deaftravis05 wrote: »

against the Romulans...

Yeah, try that TRIBBLE against the Borg with their freaking shield drain or the Voth with portals + slowing orbs and see if you win. You don't have to know what you are doing in a Fleet Alert, it's damn simple - kill everything that moves. I have no idea why you bring out "they know what they were doing" for.

You got lucky getting an easy opponent.

duncanidaho11 · April 2015

virusdancer wrote: »

The compromise would already exist in the form of doing a private queue for whatever somebody wanted to do...

Which already is a voting based process. Individivual queues allow individuals the choice for what PVE they want to play. That's not provided for by private matches (not entirely, you have to compromise.)

A categorical playlist system has demonstrably worked for other games but a big component of that was 1. eliminating host power abuses and 2. accommodating many more combinations of maps and gametypes (consider having as many PVE variants as individual PVE's).

STO's issues are 1. mob tendencies (which categorical playlists don't solve, there's still bias at higher selection level) and 2. accommodating too many individual PVE's than the current population/level of interest can support (which categorical might help with but the relative cost to individual choice is much greater. We have viable alternatives, namely the current system or the current system with a few cuts and the introduction of more temporary playlists.)

That said if you don't eliminate individual queues then a quick select "random [insert rep here] PVE" would be a neat feature (one step less to think about, and for every time used mob tendencies have one less action to bias.) But to get at meatier problems in the PVE system I think cryptic would still be looking at other changes.

virusdancer · April 2015

I'm having a hard time following how removing choices allows players to make choices.

duncanidaho11 · April 2015

virusdancer wrote: »

I'm having a hard time following how removing choices allows players to make choices.

ATM there isn't a choice to play dead PVE's (there isn't the necessary interest in those queues and private matches are an unreliable fall-back, you're still up against a lack of interest and with a much smaller population sample). If you repurpose some of them as events then with the added interest [owing to the occasion and reward bonuses] they become viable for at least some time during the year.

Its a question of nothing at all or something in moderation. The act of cutting isn't the final step to consider (though it may be the most easily fixated upon.)

In Halo 3 for example Bungie tried a wacky "rocket race" playlist. It died (because it wasn't mechanically up to the task of serving as a staple playlist), but a few months later Bungie tried out Rocket Race on a temporary basis. It came back, attracted a lot of players, and then went away before the mob rush became bored with it.

High-explosive racing is still a part of the Halo franchise now (as are all the other notable weekend playlists). It wouldn't be if the devs didn't cycle playlists. It preserves interest over the long term (making it possible to have nice things in the future, even if it isn't all the time).

farmallm · April 2015

From my past experience doing group missions. I rather do it with a group of friends. Since in pugs you have some who wont listen or ninja gear or is a pain to work with. As of now, I can't do group missions due to time limits. I don't want to get into one, get started, and have to leave early. Thus leaving them short until a replacement shows up. That is just a bad deal.

saboreth · April 2015

How about scaling some of them down to be doable with less than four? Even one? Can, for example, ICA be powered down to the point where it could challenge one player without being a cake walk? Then people can do whatever and other players can jump in along the way, perhaps with rewards reduced it the STF is too far in.

gonzothegreat78 · April 2015

so last week pvp is dead thread now this week pve is dead thread, good balance.

My personal reason for not doing STFs is not the content, but the type of people playing it.

I know theres good respectfull people who play them.. wheter a pug or organized, but the vast majority of them are just selfish crybabys. PASS

zeatrex · April 2015

There we go, now people are making sense - the reason for no queues in STFs are the players, not the game.

virusdancer wrote: »

Except it's not true. But thanks for playing!

Stop trolling.

virusdancer · April 2015

zeatrex wrote: »

Stop trolling.

Trolling? By being kind about how idiotic a statement you made I'm trolling?

HSN - HSA - HSE

Do I have to have run any of them to have a FT6 boat instead of a T6 boat instead of a FT5U boat instead of a T5U boat instead of a FT5 boat instead of a T5 boat?

Do I have to have run any of them to have G14 gear instead of UR13 gear instead of VR12 gear instead of R11 gear instead of U10 gear?

I could have a G14 FT6 boat and not only have zero clue about the content, but I could have next to zero clue about anything to do with the game.

Yet you'd look at that and think I was good to go for the content?

Yeah, that's where you've outed yourself as not having the slightest clue in the least...

This isn't some progression game where somebody has to have done A to get gear to do B to get gear to do C to get gear to do D, etc, etc, etc. Gear/ship doesn't tell anybody diddly squat about what the player can or cannot do.

STFs and the modern STO

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