There's a lot of propaganda being spread around, when it comes to Klingons. This post is going to present some facts against it to set the record straight.
Yep, definitely alot of propaganda being spread around, especially considering the issues you raised are more than 2-3 years old, and after after being mostly addressed, little has changed which really does lend credence to the notion that simply adding more content for the KDF will not increase the appeal of the KDF faction...
The very fact that this logical fallacy has already been demonstrated sufficiently (twice) makes pretty clear that things will not change and dredging up historical anecdotes from STO's (undoubtedly troubled) launch, not to mention random trivia(l) facts that you've googled off the internet, is not going to change that...
The only thing that is going to improve content parity is if people actually start playing more KDF and Romulan characters, otherwise, they are going to keep playing second fiddle to the Federation...
That statement is by no means propaganda, it's just a given fact of life when it comes to providing a service... You always cater most to the largest section of your customer base, with only enough investment to keep the outliers paying along with your primary market...
My apologies if I offended you, it is unfortunately the attitude I've come to expect from most people on these forums. (The internet in general really but that's a whole other kettle of fish.)
The problem is there is no one thing that can be pointed at and said "That, that right there is why the KDF is as small as it is." And to be blunt, I'm not the person to ask for a detailed list, specially when I'm running of 4 hours sleep and working off a hangover. There are a number of people on these forums with much more reasoned points then my own, try the KDF fleetyards and gameplay subsections. Yes you'll need to sort through some heavily opinionated people who don't check with reality, but more reasonable folks are in there too.
I understand where you're coming from... It just seemed a little sudden as I did not think I had said anything which would indicate a refusal to consider an alternative position...
Though I am often set in my views, it doesn't mean I won't consider valid points, especially substantiated arguments, to the contrary...
One thing I can say for sure though is Geko has also gone on record as having a bias against the KDF in general and he personally favours the federation heavily. Under the previous EP Geko was basically left to do whatever he wanted it seems. With the changing of the guard so to speak things are turning around and KDF, and Romulans for that mater, are getting some more attention now.
For the record I don't count Geko's comment that "They (Cryptic) ended the federation/klingon war so that they no longer had to make KDF Exclusive content." Against him. At least in respect to missions and story content that's just a sound business decision for a game with limited resources. I think they could put just a little more effort into varying the dialogue a bit for the different factions, but that's a minor thing and a different discussion.
Ships are where that approach breaks down however since they still lock ships behind faction walls. the recent releases of the iconic and command ships (and pilot if the leaked pics are anything to go by, no romulan pics yet though) have been an appreciated move aware from the farce that was the ship situation at DR's launch, which in turn is what lead to this thread of course.
To the original ration thing though, even had the KDF launched with just as much content as the federation 5 years ago, Even if the Romulans had been brought in with just as much content at the same time, I'd still expect federation players to account for a minimum of 60% of the total characters made.
After five years of the game in this state I have little hope that we'll ever see a major change in the ratios, but does that mean players that predominantly play KDF or Romulan should stop asking for at least the glaring holes in their end game options to be filled, options the federation players have in abundance. The most obvious one is a full Science ship at t6 (of kdf or romulan build, not lockbox/lobi alien ships) the Dyson destroyer is the only option Romulans can even take to T5-U, KDF have the dyson and the gorn varnus that can be upgraded, meanwhile the Federation have 3 fully fledged t6 science ships (not even going to count how many that can be made T5-U, its quite a few.)
... That was somewhat more long winded than I had intended, maybe I'm more awake than I thought I was.
I don't really disagree on any particular point and I am in fact in complete agreeance in relation to the lack of high-tier Romulan Science vessels... I've been using the Breen Carrier thus far for this very reason and continued to use the T5 Ha'nom Science Vessel far longer than I would have otherwise - I could see little point in going to the expense of the Fleet T5U variant...
I would definitely welcome a true high-tier Romulan Science vessel being added...
Having said that, I do still disagree with the generalised notion that, by simply adding more content to the KDF, more people will start playing KDF, as it's been demonstrated twice now that adding new content simply does not guarantee new people playing it...
LoR is probably the better of the two examples as it was an entire expansion and often lauded as 'the best expansion ever' by the players (to borrow from the stereotypical passive aggressive jibes at Cryptic), yet still only secured about 15-20% of the player base...
Having said that, I do still disagree with the generalised notion that, by simply adding more content to the KDF, more people will start playing KDF, as it's been demonstrated twice now that adding new content simply does not guarantee new people playing it...
I agree with this.
I have a KDF character I use for Doffing only, mostly for contraband and Dilithium. He even has the K'tinga, the one end-game TOS ship Cryptic allows and thus feels the most like the Star Trek I like. But despite that, and no matter how much content they add- he will remain a Doffing alt at best.
This is a result of how difficult they made gaining spec points and gear upgrades, there's just no time to waste on alts.
And the other part is that there's just nothing about KDF appearance, culture and play style that appeals to me as much as running a human character does.
Having said that, I do still disagree with the generalised notion that, by simply adding more content to the KDF, more people will start playing KDF, as it's been demonstrated twice now that adding new content simply does not guarantee new people playing it...
Gotta agree here.
At this point its far too along in the game for the KDF to ever 'bounce back'. Had they launched with equal PvE content as the Feds back in 2010. Things might have been different. More players would of chosen STOs Monster Faction on the principal of being different. But unfortunately that boat has sailed.
Im glad that the KDF now have a proper tutorial, PvE content that will get them from level one to level sixty for the most part. I do feel for the KDF players when it comes to a lack of Klingon oriented choices in the newer FEs and their lack of options in T6 Ships. Same for Roms.
But I dont blame the Devs for focusing more effort on the core playerbase. And honestly, the Klingons arent the ones that have had it the worst in this game. They could be in the same boat as the PvPers.
Sometimes you just gotta be thankful for what you do have.
And the other part is that there's just nothing about KDF appearance, culture and play style that appeals to me as much as running a human character does.
I think a lot of people feel this way. They only play KDF to farm or for easy access to dillithium/contraband.
I'm one of those weirdos that absolutely 's the KDF side of the game. It's honestly the only side I play. And again there's there's the rub. People who like to play KDF content - are usually very enthusiastic about it.
So you have a small % of really dedicated and enthused KDF players vs. just about everyone else.
>why do races with less canon ships, and less canon ships to build off of, have less ships
I honestly dont understand why people keep asking this question.
Because Cryptic just uses canon ships :rolleyes:
Can't have a honest conversation because of a white knight with power
While the primary issue is the return on investment of new KDF ships. Theres also the issue of not having enough to go off of when trying to design new ships that would seamlessly fall into line with the established ships.
The Fed side have a well established number of canon ships the Devs can look to for inspiration. They dont have that when it comes to the Klingons. Theres a couple of ships and thats it. Same for the Romulans.
The reason why more people don't stick with the KDF is the lack of compelling Star Ships for end game. I highly doubt it is the content, because for the most part, the actual content for KDF is superb.
I gotta agree with everything Karmog said...they have done little to even try and make Klingons better.
They haven't even gotten a original ship since before F2P...what is this nonsense about them trying multiple times and failed?
The first KDF ship the KDF got in a long time was the Bortasqu'...you know what...they made a completely horrible ship that was completely anti-Battlecruiser...and they're surprised it tanked? If you ask me it was intentional so it could be their go to excuse.
Same things happened with Romulans...they sold the Scimitar...then they gave up...they made the Ar'Kif such a shotty ship and it didn't sell.
Both factions ended getting exclusive ships with lousy stat pieces of trash...coincidence? I doubt it.
Further proof that they never cared about any faction other than the Federation ever is the fact they started giving Starfleet everything unique the KDF had piece by piece till they weren't left with a single unique thing.
Carriers, consoles, battlecruisers, and eventually raiders as well...raider...RAIDERS...the virtuous Federation even got Raiders...perhaps the most anti-Federation ship type in game. Pretty much the only thing Starfleet doesn't have is Battle Cloak.
Can't have a honest conversation because of a white knight with power
Feds have a Intel BC...so does KDF
Feds have a Intel Escort...KDF only has a Lt Intel seat.
Feds have a Intel Sci ship and 2 Intel light ships...KDF has none of either
Same things with Romulans only the have a Intel Escort and Intel light BC.
Can't have a honest conversation because of a white knight with power
Once again the klingons and romulan walk behind on ships !!!
Both only get two fleet T6 ships where the feds get 6 Fleet T6 ships.
Why ???
Klingons make up what % of the population of STO ?
Romulans make up what % of STO ?
Feds make up what % of that population ? A guess 75% if that's right that leaves 25% to split between the Roms and klinks
Jellico....Engineer ground.....Da'val Romulan space Sci
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
The battle cruiser was alright, but there hasn't been any BoPs this entire time and it's like a four to 7 ratio in terms of ships created for both the KDF and the Rommie faction with the KDF ships basically looking extremely similar to one another.
I like the design of the Korath because it implies an evolution in ship design, the intel battlecruiser sort of hints at this, but that's about it, and the Korath is gated behind a lockbox (a gamble or a fortune in credits is not a reasonable gate). As for the rest of the KDF ships, there's no ship design evolution, just more of the same thing that was in the TOS movies and the TNG series.
Klingons make up what % of the population of STO ?
Romulans make up what % of STO ?
Feds make up what % of that population ? A guess 75% if that's right that leaves 25% to split between the Roms and klinks
That assumes that it's a zero sum game, it's not necessarily, and that with some appreciation to players' needs for alts that tweaks to the Rommie and KDF factions could really boost participation in said factions.
I mean, LoR was easily the more successful expansion looking at Steam charts ( just looking at the trends ) and it featured the introduction of the Romulan faction and the Klingon tutorial with zero fed content. It's probable that people go to the end of the Romulan storyline or the KDF storyline and realized just how disadvantaged they become by comparison to the Feds in respect to both ship selection and content.
Klingons make up what % of the population of STO ?
Romulans make up what % of STO ?
Feds make up what % of that population ? A guess 75% if that's right that leaves 25% to split between the Roms and klinks
Why play another faction when not only does the Federation have the biggest selection...of well pretty much anything and everything? They also have been handed almost everything unique from the other factions...so why play anything else?
Can't have a honest conversation because of a white knight with power
a guess would be my romulans get a 7.5% crit chance over my Klingons and Feds just from my bridge crew and character..Decloak subtrafuge damage boost !!!!!!!
and a free no console battlecloak.............double free duty officers.........singularity powers
Klingon marauder missions !!!
I can see where it really suks to be a Romulan
Jellico....Engineer ground.....Da'val Romulan space Sci
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
a guess would be my romulans get a 7.5% crit chance over my Klingons and Feds just from my bridge crew and character..Decloak subtrafuge damage boost !!!!!!!
and a free no console battlecloak.............double free duty officers.........singularity powers
Klingon marauder missions !!!
I can see where it really suks to be a Romulan
That's why everyone plays Romulans? Oh wait...
Yup...so many Marauder missions...why so many KDF characters aren't just farming alts...oh wait
Singularity powers aren't all that great...we lose 40 power and get piece of junk Singularity Cores.
Feds get most of of the best non-fed consoles in the game, they have killer T6 traits compared to the Rom and KDF T6 ships...where as the Romulan ones just plain suck.
Can't have a honest conversation because of a white knight with power
All of my Feds would trade -40 power for 7.5% crit chance and a valdore console
We will give you the grappler in exchange :P
keep the battlecloak so Roms can feel special and unique
My Roms have no issue with power at all..power is not a issue
Jellico....Engineer ground.....Da'val Romulan space Sci
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
Singularity powers were nice when feds didn't have so much cloak access and along with the fact that KDF battlecloaks don't cost you -40 power. (the scimitar isn't that great when you think about the fact that it is brittle glass tank wise with the inertia of a small moon and even with it's success - it's one ship.)
My main beef along with the fact that this is already throwing more money into existing ships is that cryptic is intentionally maintaining the disparity.
Not a cent from me again PWE and my main is a romulan.
Comments
Yep, definitely alot of propaganda being spread around, especially considering the issues you raised are more than 2-3 years old, and after after being mostly addressed, little has changed which really does lend credence to the notion that simply adding more content for the KDF will not increase the appeal of the KDF faction...
The very fact that this logical fallacy has already been demonstrated sufficiently (twice) makes pretty clear that things will not change and dredging up historical anecdotes from STO's (undoubtedly troubled) launch, not to mention random trivia(l) facts that you've googled off the internet, is not going to change that...
The only thing that is going to improve content parity is if people actually start playing more KDF and Romulan characters, otherwise, they are going to keep playing second fiddle to the Federation...
That statement is by no means propaganda, it's just a given fact of life when it comes to providing a service... You always cater most to the largest section of your customer base, with only enough investment to keep the outliers paying along with your primary market...
I understand where you're coming from... It just seemed a little sudden as I did not think I had said anything which would indicate a refusal to consider an alternative position...
Though I am often set in my views, it doesn't mean I won't consider valid points, especially substantiated arguments, to the contrary...
I don't really disagree on any particular point and I am in fact in complete agreeance in relation to the lack of high-tier Romulan Science vessels... I've been using the Breen Carrier thus far for this very reason and continued to use the T5 Ha'nom Science Vessel far longer than I would have otherwise - I could see little point in going to the expense of the Fleet T5U variant...
I would definitely welcome a true high-tier Romulan Science vessel being added...
Having said that, I do still disagree with the generalised notion that, by simply adding more content to the KDF, more people will start playing KDF, as it's been demonstrated twice now that adding new content simply does not guarantee new people playing it...
LoR is probably the better of the two examples as it was an entire expansion and often lauded as 'the best expansion ever' by the players (to borrow from the stereotypical passive aggressive jibes at Cryptic), yet still only secured about 15-20% of the player base...
The developers finally do what people have literally been pissing and moaning for them to do, and some are STILL not satisfied. :rolleyes:
I agree with this.
I have a KDF character I use for Doffing only, mostly for contraband and Dilithium. He even has the K'tinga, the one end-game TOS ship Cryptic allows and thus feels the most like the Star Trek I like. But despite that, and no matter how much content they add- he will remain a Doffing alt at best.
This is a result of how difficult they made gaining spec points and gear upgrades, there's just no time to waste on alts.
And the other part is that there's just nothing about KDF appearance, culture and play style that appeals to me as much as running a human character does.
Gotta agree here.
At this point its far too along in the game for the KDF to ever 'bounce back'. Had they launched with equal PvE content as the Feds back in 2010. Things might have been different. More players would of chosen STOs Monster Faction on the principal of being different. But unfortunately that boat has sailed.
Im glad that the KDF now have a proper tutorial, PvE content that will get them from level one to level sixty for the most part. I do feel for the KDF players when it comes to a lack of Klingon oriented choices in the newer FEs and their lack of options in T6 Ships. Same for Roms.
But I dont blame the Devs for focusing more effort on the core playerbase. And honestly, the Klingons arent the ones that have had it the worst in this game. They could be in the same boat as the PvPers.
Sometimes you just gotta be thankful for what you do have.
I think a lot of people feel this way. They only play KDF to farm or for easy access to dillithium/contraband.
I'm one of those weirdos that absolutely
So you have a small % of really dedicated and enthused KDF players vs. just about everyone else.
Because Cryptic just uses canon ships :rolleyes:
While the primary issue is the return on investment of new KDF ships. Theres also the issue of not having enough to go off of when trying to design new ships that would seamlessly fall into line with the established ships.
The Fed side have a well established number of canon ships the Devs can look to for inspiration. They dont have that when it comes to the Klingons. Theres a couple of ships and thats it. Same for the Romulans.
They haven't even gotten a original ship since before F2P...what is this nonsense about them trying multiple times and failed?
The first KDF ship the KDF got in a long time was the Bortasqu'...you know what...they made a completely horrible ship that was completely anti-Battlecruiser...and they're surprised it tanked? If you ask me it was intentional so it could be their go to excuse.
Same things happened with Romulans...they sold the Scimitar...then they gave up...they made the Ar'Kif such a shotty ship and it didn't sell.
Both factions ended getting exclusive ships with lousy stat pieces of trash...coincidence? I doubt it.
Further proof that they never cared about any faction other than the Federation ever is the fact they started giving Starfleet everything unique the KDF had piece by piece till they weren't left with a single unique thing.
Carriers, consoles, battlecruisers, and eventually raiders as well...raider...RAIDERS...the virtuous Federation even got Raiders...perhaps the most anti-Federation ship type in game. Pretty much the only thing Starfleet doesn't have is Battle Cloak.
You might want to check out the T6 ships, then.
You also might want to check out the T6 ships.
YET, Im sure they'll get it soon enough
What T6 ships?
Feds have a Intel BC...so does KDF
Feds have a Intel Escort...KDF only has a Lt Intel seat.
Feds have a Intel Sci ship and 2 Intel light ships...KDF has none of either
Same things with Romulans only the have a Intel Escort and Intel light BC.
Klingons make up what % of the population of STO ?
Romulans make up what % of STO ?
Feds make up what % of that population ? A guess 75% if that's right that leaves 25% to split between the Roms and klinks
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
The battle cruiser was alright, but there hasn't been any BoPs this entire time and it's like a four to 7 ratio in terms of ships created for both the KDF and the Rommie faction with the KDF ships basically looking extremely similar to one another.
I like the design of the Korath because it implies an evolution in ship design, the intel battlecruiser sort of hints at this, but that's about it, and the Korath is gated behind a lockbox (a gamble or a fortune in credits is not a reasonable gate). As for the rest of the KDF ships, there's no ship design evolution, just more of the same thing that was in the TOS movies and the TNG series.
That assumes that it's a zero sum game, it's not necessarily, and that with some appreciation to players' needs for alts that tweaks to the Rommie and KDF factions could really boost participation in said factions.
I mean, LoR was easily the more successful expansion looking at Steam charts ( just looking at the trends ) and it featured the introduction of the Romulan faction and the Klingon tutorial with zero fed content. It's probable that people go to the end of the Romulan storyline or the KDF storyline and realized just how disadvantaged they become by comparison to the Feds in respect to both ship selection and content.
Why play another faction when not only does the Federation have the biggest selection...of well pretty much anything and everything? They also have been handed almost everything unique from the other factions...so why play anything else?
and a free no console battlecloak.............double free duty officers.........singularity powers
Klingon marauder missions !!!
I can see where it really suks to be a Romulan
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
That's why everyone plays Romulans? Oh wait...
Yup...so many Marauder missions...why so many KDF characters aren't just farming alts...oh wait
Singularity powers aren't all that great...we lose 40 power and get piece of junk Singularity Cores.
Feds get most of of the best non-fed consoles in the game, they have killer T6 traits compared to the Rom and KDF T6 ships...where as the Romulan ones just plain suck.
We will give you the grappler in exchange :P
keep the battlecloak so Roms can feel special and unique
My Roms have no issue with power at all..power is not a issue
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
Singularity powers were nice when feds didn't have so much cloak access and along with the fact that KDF battlecloaks don't cost you -40 power. (the scimitar isn't that great when you think about the fact that it is brittle glass tank wise with the inertia of a small moon and even with it's success - it's one ship.)
My main beef along with the fact that this is already throwing more money into existing ships is that cryptic is intentionally maintaining the disparity.
Not a cent from me again PWE and my main is a romulan.