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Apologies to the staff...
section31agent
Member Posts: 665 Arc User
Today I learned something that may go a big way into explaining why STO has so many problems. STO has a contract with the cheapest ISP COGENT. For those of you who do not know COGENT owns the servers and has a climate controlled environment. Cryptic rents the servers from COGENT and thus has no way to control when there is a server malfunction. Think of it this way....
It is Summer vacation time at the Beach. You have rented a hotel room for ther entire Summer, the cable goes out, you call the front desk [PWE] and politely tell the clerk the service is out. [PWE] now calls the cable company [COGENT] and reports the outage. The cable company says they will get around to fixing the problem. You call all the friends you have on the same floor their cable is out too. Hours pass still no cable you call back down to the front desk and let your frustration be known. You get the speech "We are working on it" so you try to give them some time to fix it. A week later no one has serviced the room you are staying in and the cable is still out. After months of staying at this hotel with messed up cable you go down to the lobby and some TRIBBLE from across the street claims it isn't the cables fault because they don't have an outage. Get the picture?
#1. The cable company [COGENT] does not care because they have a contract. They don't have to worry about customer service, they get paid the same regardless of when or if they get the cable back up and running.
#2. The hotel [PWE] cares to a point they want the phone to stop ringing with complaints. So they send the maintenance man [DEVS] to check out the problem. Then they want to know if the TV is turned on, is it plugged into the wall. Are the cable fittings tight? All of these redundant things only to say "Yep" cable's out.
#3. The hotel [PWE] gets these horrible reviews and fires employees at this particular hotel. They hire a new clerk at a lower wage and expect him to fix the old problem. Meanwhile hotel management [Cryptic Staff] gets the blame for losing customers.
#4 There is a no money back policy in place. So what is a paying customer to do?
It is Summer vacation time at the Beach. You have rented a hotel room for ther entire Summer, the cable goes out, you call the front desk [PWE] and politely tell the clerk the service is out. [PWE] now calls the cable company [COGENT] and reports the outage. The cable company says they will get around to fixing the problem. You call all the friends you have on the same floor their cable is out too. Hours pass still no cable you call back down to the front desk and let your frustration be known. You get the speech "We are working on it" so you try to give them some time to fix it. A week later no one has serviced the room you are staying in and the cable is still out. After months of staying at this hotel with messed up cable you go down to the lobby and some TRIBBLE from across the street claims it isn't the cables fault because they don't have an outage. Get the picture?
#1. The cable company [COGENT] does not care because they have a contract. They don't have to worry about customer service, they get paid the same regardless of when or if they get the cable back up and running.
#2. The hotel [PWE] cares to a point they want the phone to stop ringing with complaints. So they send the maintenance man [DEVS] to check out the problem. Then they want to know if the TV is turned on, is it plugged into the wall. Are the cable fittings tight? All of these redundant things only to say "Yep" cable's out.
#3. The hotel [PWE] gets these horrible reviews and fires employees at this particular hotel. They hire a new clerk at a lower wage and expect him to fix the old problem. Meanwhile hotel management [Cryptic Staff] gets the blame for losing customers.
#4 There is a no money back policy in place. So what is a paying customer to do?
Post edited by section31agent#8506 on
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http://www.arcgames.com/en/games/star-trek-online/news/detail/10052253
Why are you not rejoicing?
and do we really need a 10th server thread, op? couldn't you have just posted in one of the other thread; even one of your own?
The OP was trying to say it isn't the staff's fault they are dealing with multiple issues. It is true that PWE is locked into a contract with Cogent. Even so, there is no excuse for shoddy code writing and flat out lying to the customers over it. There are obviously many factions of supporters and detractors who think they know what's going on behind closed doors. Until they break the silence we will never know. I rather liked the OP's analogy of the corporate struggle.
Now then OP did you really have to bring back the awful memories of Spring Break 02' at Panama City?
And as was mentioned above by the other poster, some players cannot get past the Launcher. Others get lag when in the game. Some do not get lag at all. I think there are numerous issues going on from multiple sources. It is not just a Cogent issue.
the obvious question not asked that will prove or disprove this thread in a heartbeat. do you have proof of this?
Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
You don't know what's going on, either. And, like you say, until and if they tell us, we'll never know. 'shoddy code writing and flat out lying to the customers over it.' are therefore unusually harsh and uncalled for words.
I cannot agree with the OP, though. Ultimately, it's PWE/Cryptic themselves who choose their ISP. If one service starts consistently performing below the mark, then it's time they found another. The Devs at Cryptic, of course, can't be blamed for that.
Indeed. Previously I was having consistent issues getting my connection through the point where AT&T offloads its traffic onto Cogent. This was involved directly with their cat-fight about who gets to pay for increasing bandwidth (which net-neutrality regulations will hopefully put an end to). However after replacing my router (old, dying, time for a change) those connection issues are no longer severe enough to noticably affect my STO gametime, though I needed to tweak a couple settings to get that just right.
So at the problem of "STO keeps disconnecting and/or lagging" there were ISP issues, hardware issues, and then hardware setting issues. I could have blammed cryptic (because forum posts are easier to write than troubleshooting a home network) but the fact is that whatever they are or are not doing is merely a contributing factor, and once you sort out the others that factor shouldn't be [much of] a problem (given that the game does work.)
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This is the same question I was having. Where is the proof that Cryptic is renting Servers from Cogent? If you look at Cogent, they also offer closets in their collocation where the clients can put in their own servers and just use the networking services. Many places do things like this so they can have MORE flexibility in upgrading the hardware used for their own server. So who's to say that Cryptic didn't do this as well? Did someone at Cryptic release documentation stating that their servers are rented and thus they have no control over the hardware they get on it?
Most of the time the Devs are just told to create and maintain things but their primary jobs are creation of content, whether ship or episode or other. However, and this seems to be something a lot of people always fails to take into account is that the issues some people say don't simply boil down to only an ISP issue. There are multiple factors that fall into line and lead to the real cause. I know for the lag/rubberbanding for instance, that myself and several others have determined that certain skills and traits are one part of the formula for the cause.
Top DPS 102k
Cogent's a big ISP/hosting provider. Probably one of the world's 10 largest in terms of traffic. Their systems run a lot of important stuff. They're not "the cheapest ISP" by a very long shot.
Not likely. Most contracts with providers, and I'm sure the one involved here between PWE and Cogent, have SLA's. Those SLA's guarantee some degree of uptime and service quality, and if those minimums aren't met, Cogent loses money.
The rest of that first post trying to set up some analogy to hotel service doesn't even make sense in this case, so I'll skip the rest of the points, but here's the deal:
There's a very good chance the problems a lot of people are happening at the network level. Given that all the complaints I've seen have been from AT&T customers, it seems very likely there's a problem at the point where AT&T's network connects to Cogent's. So the people who need to actually fix it are the ones at those two ISPs.
Does that mean PWE is off the hook? No, far from it. As Cogent's customer and the company running this game, they are responsible for riding Cogent's butts and making sure the issue is resolved quickly. While they can't fix it themselves, what they absolutely need to be doing is to wave that contract of theirs in Cogent's faces and yell as loudly as they can until the problem goes away.
They may be doing that, and they may not, but given how long this issue has been going on, it's clear they're not yelling loudly enough.
In the tracert threads, the paths lead through Cogent networks in Boston.
(UFP) Ragnar
that proves nothing. you got something more concreate other then the path it takes to jump from machine to machine?
Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
Not really. It's just an observation I made from the tracert threads and thought it was worthy to note here.
(UFP) Ragnar
Mirrochaos has a point... Those traceroutes prove PWE uses Cogent as an ISP. It doesn't prove anything either way about whether they're using Cogent's servers or their own.
You can force your path to go through China. Does that mean that some company in China is where the servers are hosted?
Top DPS 102k
As I mentioned to mirrochaos, it's just an observation I got from the tracert threads and thought it was something good to note in this discussion.
If anything there's equal evidence of Cogent hosting the servers as there is evidence that Cogent isn't hosting the servers.
(UFP) Ragnar
Is there actually any evidence at all that the servers belong to Cogent? I haven't seen any.
I mean, if you traceroute to my machine, you'll see it go through AT&T's network. That doesn't mean I'm using an AT&T machine, it just means I'm using their network. I also work for a large website that uses (among others) Cogent as an ISP. Traceroutes to our systems look similar to the ones to STO. We don't use Cogent's servers. The fact that a company uses some company as an ISP is no indication at all of who the server hardware belongs to.
This whole "PWE is renting servers from Cogent" thing seems to me to be pure speculation with no evidence at all to back it up.
And for those of us that arent customers of AT&T?
Talk about anecdotal evidence. The only consistent information we have is that there is lag and rubberbanding. Beyond that we dont have enough information to form a theory.
As said before. It could be a number of different factors playing into this. So how about, instead of trying to find something to point the finger at with no evidence. We take a step back and realize that if something can be done. It will. The lag and rubberbanding will only be tolerated for so long before it begins to affect their bottomline.
:: shrugs :: I'll be the first to admit that I have no evidence. But I've haven't seen (or simply overlook by accident) any evidence that the servers aren't at Cogent either.
(UFP) Ragnar
Exactly.
The only fact that they "COULD" be renting is where their main office is. But as far as anyone knows they could fly out from time to time when needed to do their maintenance or have a satellite office located nearby in Boston that houses only the server admins.
Until someone at Cryptic/PWE comes out and declares "We rent servers" there is nothing to prove one way or the other. So people need to stop force feeding on an issue not as yet proven.
Top DPS 102k
It is starting to affect the bottom line of things. Some of the whales, the truly high end PVE DPS chasers for instance, have all but stopped playing, which means they have stopped paying for new things.
While it might only be a drop in the bucket in cases it is still something you can track, IE their highest paying customers is something I'm sure they track.
Top DPS 102k
I wasn't talking about the general lag and rubberbanding... I'm sure those exist, as I've seen a lot of it myself.
But lately, if you're coming from AT&T's network, the problems have been a lot worse than that. For several hours a day over the last week, a large number of AT&T customers (myself included) haven't been able to log into the game, and when we can, it's either unplayable or we get booted off very quickly. It's getting pretty predictable -- it seems to start around 3:00pm (for me, in Central time) and last a few hours after that.
This isn't "pointing the finger with no evidence." There's a metric crapton of evidence that this is a real issue affecting a lot of people, and that it's exactly what I'm talking about: a problem at the peering point between AT&T and Cogent.
Will fixing that fix all the lag and rubberbanding people are experiencing? No, definitely not. But it would fix a much worse issue that's making the game completely unplayable for several hours a day for players who happen to have AT&T as their ISP.
You are not alone. My ISP is Windstream and it has the very same problems and their team of engineers said the problem lies with Cogent not with my computer or router or their network. My fleetmates use Time Warner Cable and experience similar problems to the point they can't even login. These problems do exist.
My original post was designed to show it is not 100% the fault of Cryptic's staff. That does not give them a free pass either. The game has had issues since before launch and these issues were swept under the rug. Now these issues reappear every Thursday with a patch or a launch of new content.
They need to take the game totally down and fix it right. If that means 72 hours with no STO so be it. Otherwise they will start to lose more and more players.....
Where did they say that it was the ISP?
I've been trawling the forums for STO, CO, and NW for the last two weeks looking for that thread. It's because I haven't been able to find it that I've been so pissed off at this whole situation, not because there's issues. Problems happen. But a lack of communication is what gets me more than anything, and I haven't seen anything from cryptic more than "We're looking into it". You can only "look into it" for so long.
And I do tech support and repairs. I've used the "look into it" line myself when it was something I really didn't want to do and tried to put it off. But after two weeks, I want an answer more than speculation from the FORUM GOERS as to cryptics problem.
The problem is they have always said it is the fault of the players ISP. They will continue to do so until someone forces their hand and calls their bluff. The stink is getting to the point that one of two things is going to happen. Either they will get to the bottom of the problems and fix them or the players will leave it to die a slow painful death.
First of all, I have no idea whether any of that is actually true, so my comment is just assuming it is for the sake of conversation. That said, if you enter into a contract with someone without doing enough research to determine they are not reliable, that is still your own fault. So as customers, we would have just as much right to blame Cryptic/PW for entering into a bad contract as we would to blame Cogent for poor service.
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
So true but greed and the lowest bid seem to be bedfellows.
I am sure for some people that Cogent is the issue - especially Cogent's war with certain ISPs.
I am sure some people are dealing with graphics lag rather then actual Server lag - especially in high video card memory areas like ESD.
I am also sure that for some others there are personal ISP issues causing problems - especially in pathing.
I am equally sure there is some internal issues going on with the software - anyone remember a couple of years ago when Saucer Separation would cause Server crashes?
This is not just a single problem that has a ''push one button" fix. It is a lot of issues all compounding at the same time. Cogent is just one cog in the wheel.
If the game ends up being unplayable, nobody logs in and the flow of Zen/Dil stops which means no purchases of any kind and the money stops coming in.
PWE has zero incentive to put their heads in the sand and pretend there's no issue. They're about to release Season 10. That's not the act of a company that's having a "Going Out Of Business Sale". That release is specifically intended to stimulate more sales. Sales that won't happen if people can't play the game.
So to say that they don't care and they're only out to grab the money... is completely irrational. They have to make money, therefore they have to care. Ignoring the problems would be corporate suicide.
That said, knowing there's a problem and being able to fix it are two very different things. Root causes can be very difficult to find, especially if there are multiple issues as Cosmic suggests.
I suspect there are a lot of techs tearing their hair out over this stuff right about now. But that's not exactly the kind of thing a company can publicly admit to. I'm going to guess that they're going to do everything in their power to correct any issues before S10 goes live.
That's what I'd be doing if I were in their place.
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