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The Cardassian Revamp - Speculations?
mustrumridcully0
Member Posts: 12,963 Arc User
I am now (as many others have been and will be thanks to Delta Recruitment) in the Cardassian Arc and wonder what the revamp of the Cardassian Arc wil lchange and cut.
Just as an example - I just played a mission in where a Federation ship's crew was completely exchanged by Undine. The mission before, I was fighting in a Section 31 holodeck simulation (without my knowledge at the time) against a Starfleet crew gone mad from an alleged Undine.
Sounds a bit... too similar, doesn't it? If I were to guess missions to be cut, either of these, possibly even both, would quality.
If one is to stay, the holodeck one is the better, if only for the fact that it includes the "Section 31" loyalty test that I gratefully failed by siding with the alleged Undine Captain. I like it for that very reason - I think it's great to have such a "loyality test", and Section 31 is the ideal candidate for it - Personally, I abhor Section 31 as a violation of anything the Federation is supposed to stand for, but I know others see them as the "Dark Heroes" that do the things that the squeky clean Federation or Starfleet would never be able to do. I can see it, and I think that this diference of opinion makes them worthy of addition to the Star Trek universe. Their only problem is that they are also a bit of Mary Sues. I hope we get another mission along this lines where we can seriously trip them up and lure some of htem in a trap (and the people that think Section 31 is great should have the option to get "double agents" here and set the trap but also provide a way out.)
Anyway, I also noticed that the arc does not contain many Delta Recruitment Iconian artifacts or information. Only "The Long Night" and "Crack in the Mirror" seem to contain anything pertaining the Iconians.
I wonder if that means that Cryptic also picked these as critical to keep around? It kinda makes sense - Crack in the Mirror is what I believe introduces us to the whole Mirror Universe arc, and without that, some things in the game (like the Mirror Event) don't make sense. Even if it's probably one of my least favourite aspects of STO, it's just too ridicilous for me. The DS9 mirror episodes were okay, but entire incursions with masses of ships conveniently looking like 2410's Starfleet lineup? Nope. My disbelief suspsenders don't stretch that far.
Still, I wonder what do you think which missions Crtpic is most likely to expand and revamp, and which will be deleted? Anything you fear to lose in the arc?
Just as an example - I just played a mission in where a Federation ship's crew was completely exchanged by Undine. The mission before, I was fighting in a Section 31 holodeck simulation (without my knowledge at the time) against a Starfleet crew gone mad from an alleged Undine.
Sounds a bit... too similar, doesn't it? If I were to guess missions to be cut, either of these, possibly even both, would quality.
If one is to stay, the holodeck one is the better, if only for the fact that it includes the "Section 31" loyalty test that I gratefully failed by siding with the alleged Undine Captain. I like it for that very reason - I think it's great to have such a "loyality test", and Section 31 is the ideal candidate for it - Personally, I abhor Section 31 as a violation of anything the Federation is supposed to stand for, but I know others see them as the "Dark Heroes" that do the things that the squeky clean Federation or Starfleet would never be able to do. I can see it, and I think that this diference of opinion makes them worthy of addition to the Star Trek universe. Their only problem is that they are also a bit of Mary Sues. I hope we get another mission along this lines where we can seriously trip them up and lure some of htem in a trap (and the people that think Section 31 is great should have the option to get "double agents" here and set the trap but also provide a way out.)
Anyway, I also noticed that the arc does not contain many Delta Recruitment Iconian artifacts or information. Only "The Long Night" and "Crack in the Mirror" seem to contain anything pertaining the Iconians.
I wonder if that means that Cryptic also picked these as critical to keep around? It kinda makes sense - Crack in the Mirror is what I believe introduces us to the whole Mirror Universe arc, and without that, some things in the game (like the Mirror Event) don't make sense. Even if it's probably one of my least favourite aspects of STO, it's just too ridicilous for me. The DS9 mirror episodes were okay, but entire incursions with masses of ships conveniently looking like 2410's Starfleet lineup? Nope. My disbelief suspsenders don't stretch that far.
Still, I wonder what do you think which missions Crtpic is most likely to expand and revamp, and which will be deleted? Anything you fear to lose in the arc?
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
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That'll probably come around the summer, and we'll (hopefully) see a Cardassian Expansion around the fall to coincide with the Iconian war since the Gamma Quadrant is the only Quadrant that isn't involved in the war so far and I'm sure the Dominion and Cardassians will be manipulated on some level.
That said I think there are more missions that people would classify as "trek" in that arc than anywhere else. I'm talking about the missions where you just run here, talk to dude, run to another dude, talk some more, repeat 3 more times and collect xp. So boring as those missions are I imagine they might stick around.
Be cool if during those pre combat chats with the enemies if there was a sequence of options that would allow you to diplomance (yes, diplomance. It's what bards do in DnD. They aren't pyromancers, they are diplomancers) the enemy and you'd still get xp as if you killed them
Let the stupid suffer
*rimshot* Heh!
- Badlands = removed
- Suspect = removed
- War games = removed
- Shutdown = revamped (crucial for the whole Undine Story)
- Rapier = removed
- Forging Bonds = removed
- The Long Night = removed
- The Tribble with Klingons = removed
- Tear of the Prophets = removed
- Crack in the Mirror = revamped (crucial for the whole "Mirror Story" incl. "Mirror Event")
- The new Link = removed
- Seeds of Dissent = removed
- The other Side = removed
- Cage of Fire = removed
Section 31
-remasterd versions of the Undine missions and "Suspect."
Cardassian arc
- Maybe something to do with the True Way trying to rise to power.
- The reject "Alpha" Jem'Hadar.
- Something on Cardassia
- Maybe the True Way are buying weapons from various powers (Talarians etc)
Mirror arc
Maybe a 5 parter where we take on the role of our mirror selves in a quest to become the Emperor/Empress , Regent , w/e of the Terran Empire / Klingon-Cardassian Alliance / Romulan Empire?
and
The 2800 arc
(remove the audio files from "boldy they rode")
Well I for one did and do pass the loyalty test because of a bit of logic. Franklin Drake had never once lied to me nor asked me to do anything that seemed counter to the Federation or Star Fleet. But both men held me to an all or nothing ultimatum. An unknown captain on a ship full of sick people that may be being assaulted by undine. Undine, known shape-shifting infiltrators. Or the known agent from a shadowy organization that has never asked me or anyone else I know of to do something they despised.
What I would like to see:
More logic and flair given to the True Way movement. So far they seem like throw away villains than an actual threat.
Same done for the mirror universe. Expand what they have and maybe let us know they are around before we find them on DS9? I would also love it if they put down a separate zone to represent being in the mirror universe. That would be cool.
The fire caves and the work there seems to be stretching things. Either flesh it out more or drop it.
Undine / section 31 mission break up the arc missions just a hair as they have a bit of arcs.
Clean up missions like Badlands. The three tiny 'planets' felt ridiculous and broke immersion for me.
Many will hate me for this but. Promote Kurland, having yet another commander at DS9 seems a minor insult to the Bajorans and one to our characters as he is the one giving mission orders to the players. A commander ordering a decorated admiral around seems a bit off.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
Well especially after the "Romulan Revamp" ... Cryptic seems to be removing anything not focussing on the whole Iconian-Sela Plot (like "Saturdays Child" i.E.) ... but maybe you're right & "Crack in the Mirror" will be the only Mission left, that's pretty much the only Mission "needed" for the MU-Event ...
Maybe Iconian involvement really is the best way to explain it. They could be the Vaadwaur Light. Or maybe there is a way to rescue the Undine components in the arc, and establish that an "Undine underground network" has been secretly delivering weapons. Infiltrators in the Federation ensured that no one took notice, and the true buyers for the Ferengi-Cardassian ships has often been the True Way.
If this was less of a game that needs its pew-pew, I'd argue that the whole Cardassian Struggle thing should be mostly a political story, full of diplomacy, treachery, backstabbing and all that. And maybe an attempted coup d'etat that you have to blow up with space magic.
Yeah, it came down to logic for me as well, rather than my personal feelings about Section 31. In that mission, I felt like Drake knew far too much about our past encounters and Section 31 itself to believably be an Undine; if the Undine Infiltration STF taught me anything, it's that Undine agents apparently only gather the bare minimum of information (if that) they need to pass as whom they are disguising themselves as. And Drake couldn't have been an Undine previously, as I doubt an Undine would have cared about stopping the Devidians from TRIBBLE with our universe (it would have actually been beneficial to them). Finally, there was the fact that we found Drake in a shuttlecraft at the start of mission, yet, supposedly, the reason why the telephatic members of the crew had gone crazy is because of a psionic assault by an Undine; I'm not sure the full range or power of an Undine's telepathic abilities, but it would still make more sense that an Undine would want to be as close to their victims as possible to ensure the effectiveness of their abilities.
So yeah, in the end, the evidence all added up in Drake's favor, and, for me at least, it was less about me choosing to be for or against Section 31, and more, at the time, exposing what seemed to be yet another Undine plot. That said, outside of the hoops he has our characters jump through in this mission, Drake has actually done a lot to improve my opinion of Section 31 (or at least individual Section 31 agents) since I first learned about them on DS9, and I'm kind of hoping we eventually see more of him in future. It's actually kind of disappointing we haven't see him again yet; exposing Iconian plots seem likes something that would be right up his alley.
Oh, and as to the topic at hand, even if it's not necessary, I still kind of hope they keep Suspect when they do revamp the Cardassian storyline specifically because it's a neat little mission and, in the end, it's more about building up Section 31 and Drake's character, than anything to do with the Undine. It could definitely do with a little streamlining, of course....
Whichever mission had the Jem'Hadar hatchery should be removed. There wouldn't be any of those left.
It makes perfect sense to have the old Jem'Hadar fleet come out of the wormhole, get some closure off that whole reasoning.
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Doesn't Owe Anyone EC
Kirks Prot
Rapier has a good chance of making the cut as part of an expanded Dominion series, probably using the Defiant replica interior. This probably also means cutting it down to just Captain or Captain + BO for that segment because of the corridor size. The New Link also seems like a mission that could make the cut with a bit of polish. I can see these being made cross faction since the Dominion series already is.
From there, we have the issue of what happens to the True Way and the Mirror Universe.
Much like the Romulan revamp, I'd expect a lot of deleted episodes and some good parts compilations of what remains.
The voiceover from Nimoy is heavy on references to both True Way and Mirror and I can't imagine Cryptic wanting to lose that. But I could see one or the other being shifted to endgame.
- I imagine a heavily streamlined Cage of Fire with autowarp between systems like most modern missions. Possibly Marc Alaimo audio taken from the shows.
- I imagine State of Q popping back up with True Way replacing Borg.
- "Suspect" will be kept in some form.
- I expect there will be a strong push for a show accurate new DS9 interior and that the assets will get heavy use. My money is on "The Long Night" becoming a queued STF-like event on Empok Nor with more show accurate sets like the conference room and habitat ring getting use. I can see the Mirror Universe becoming a Mirror Terok Nor Adventure Zone in 5 parts, with plot elements borrowed from the originals.
No Undine.
So something like:
The Mirror Struggle:
Suspect
4-5 new adventure zone missions on Mirror Terok Nor, culminating in a new Shutdown
The Cardassian Turmoil:
Badlands (Basically New)
Forging Bonds (Basically New)
Rapier (Ground completely redone to use replica interior)
State of Q (Revamped with True Way replacing Borg)
Seeds of Dissent (Revamped)
Cage of Fire (Major Revamp, streamlined)
The Dominion Threat:
The New Link (Minor revamp)
Second Wave (Major Revamp)
Of Bajor
Operation Gamma
Facility 4028
Boldly They Rode (Major Revamp)
Empok Nor reworked as a queued ground mission with new maps and objectives.
Fire Caves rescue ground queue.
New Space Fleet action against the KCA: "Assault on Terok Nor"?
I figure around the same time, we'll see a T6 Keldon lockbox and Cardassian military attire/Command BOff combo for Lobi. (Getting the BOff unlocks the uniform.) Possibly the same for Ferengi with more show accurate costumes. Spiral Wave lockbox weapons. New Lobi T6 D'Kora possibly at the same time given the split faction focus of late. Bajoran Orb Shards as lockbox prizes with variations on Orb of Prossibilities-type effects.
"The New Link" and "The Long Night" will probably stay, albeit with a quality pass like what the Klingon arc got.
Not sure about the others. I hope they don't cut too much; I kind of liked the missions from a story perspective. It makes sense that, since the True Way is a decentralized terrorist organization rather than a unified empire, there would be a lot more "villain of the week" style missions. But I do hope the missions that survive are cut down so playing them is less tedious. And "The New Link" only makes sense if the True Way are a big part of the story.
"Critics who say that the optimistic utopia Star Trek depicted is now outmoded forget the cultural context that gave birth to it: Star Trek was not a manifestation of optimism when optimism was easy. Star Trek declared a hope for a future that nobody stuck in the present could believe in. For all our struggles today, we haven’t outgrown the need for stories like Star Trek. We need tales of optimism, of heroes, of courage and goodness now as much as we’ve ever needed them."
-Thomas Marrone
He's the only guy I know who can go toe to toe in a fist fight with a Heavy Antiproton Turret, and win.
I don't care what they do to the missions as long as I still get to see this.
They will have to if they re-do DS9 from the ground up (which is what the map artist wants to do) although it may mean the 2800 series uses a dated map until a later update.
State of Q is something they've worked on internally for awhile. I think sandwiching it into the Cardassian arc is a way to keep that up.
I am standing by:
Rapier (Ground completely redone to use replica interior)
State of Q (Revamped with True Way replacing Borg)
Seeds of Dissent (Revamped)
Cage of Fire (Major Revamp, streamlined)
I think it may take two or more passes to hit the Cardassian front as it gets broken up into what are essentially three arcs.
I think there's simply too much stuff that relies on references to multiple mirror episodes and multiple True Way episodes to gut much further though.
Now, in what I'm envisioning for the Mirror stuff, it's probably five episodes that use one map in various states. It would just be the new DS9 social map (and habitat ring) with set dressing, reused multiple times. No distinct maps created for the individual instanced episodes. Maybe a reuse of Hathon with some set dressing.
I think they will redo DS9's interior and copies of that one map may get reused 10-12 times or so in missions, with tweaks.
Reason being, it's expensive enough that they need to amortize the cost through repeated use, it's "true to the show", and it's how they preserve the flow of the story/needed references while still having time to do the other new stuff that's needed.
I can see this being a 2-3 pass job though where they maybe start off by deleting the True Way missions and replacing them with a condensed front and save the revamp/condensing of Mirror/Undine and harmonizing of The 2800 for later updates.
I know remastering FEs sounds nuts but when you're looking at a DS9 revamp that gets rid of the old map and starts over, you have to redo significant portions of Second Wave and Boldly They Rode and even some of Of Bajor's cutscenes.
I am as happy as a clam in pig ****
I finally reached the 2800, and it's good ol times
KURLAND HERE! And he does not approve.
True Way arc:
Forging bonds: removed
Badlans: removed
Rapier: removed
Cage of fire: removed
The tribble with klingons: removed
Kurtland: executed for incompetence
Seeds of dissent: Moved to first mission, revamped to make it a bit less boring, you end up interrupting a meeting between the True way cardassians and the New link Jem'hadar/vorta where they were trying to form an alliance, here you meet with the arc nemesis (like Hakeev but cardassian)
3-5 new missions where you need to find where are the true way and new link bases located, as well as pursuing the arc nemesis.
The new link: minor revamp, cardassians removed.
The long night: moved to last mission, revamped, no jem'hadar ships, you assault the station with a joint task force composed of your faction and Cardassian military, both space and ground, fixed psychotropic gases so environmental suits protect against them, optional subquest to reprogram station automatic defenses, map reworked so you can fight through the habitat ring as well as the cargo area, leaders are found in the conference room and the nemesis escapes to Ops.
Mirror arc: available to all
Tear of the prophets: modified a bit so you are fighting the remnants of the true way, in a desperate attempt to turn the tide after losing most of their leaders and support from the new link they try to steal the orb in exchange for the mirror universe armada.
1-2 new missions for a bit more background story
1 special mission in which you play as mirror you against the terran empire if you are klingon or romulan (independent of alignment), or you help the terran empire if you are a a federation player.
Crack in the mirror: minor revamp, a ferengi dies, a famous mirror character is in charge of the assault, for example mirror Tuvok, or mirror admiral Quinn, or any other mirror fed who plays a "good guy" in our universe, (Mirror Neelix? I know many would love to have a chance to kill him XD).
The other side: minor revamp, and you end up being helped by your mirror you (KDF/ROM) or you fight and kill mirror you (FED).
Undine arc:
All missions removed, complete rework with new missions, including one in bajor to justify the ground queues.
The 2800 arc:
Minor revamp, focused in "of Bajor" and "boldly they rode"
It dealt with Iconians sending Borg back in time to kill Sisko.
Having the Iconians send the True Way back in time to Wolf 359 to kill Sisko actually heightens the DS9 connection (if the Borg wanted to go back in time to kill Sisko, why would they need Iconians?), means two enemy groups, and it heightens the main plot connection if the True Way are servitors.
As it stands, the time travelers and native Borg in the mission are costumed differently but it's difficult to distinguish because Borg look so much alike.
Q would need to get involved just as much as he would before. The Iconians tampering by sending True Way back to board the Saratoga at Wolf 359 would tip the balance in a variety of ways.
The True Way have more motivation to do this than the Borg would. If the Borg went back to Wolf 359, you'd think they'd get a lot more mileage out of blowing up the Enterprise and keeping Locutus.
Whereas if the True Way wound up back there, their sights would be on Sisko. No wormhole discovery. No Dominion messing up Cardassia. Killing Sisko at Wolf 359 saves Cardassia.
Wil Wheaton has talked to STO developers before. He's not the biggest Wesley fan though from what I hear.
Get Wheaton as Mirror Wesley. Wheaton loves the memes about Wesley having a badass evil twin.
Mirror Wesley could be a General Chang-level villain. He's almost like Hamlet. His "uncle" Picard probably killed Wesley's father and married his mother.
He could be a Shakespeare-loving, cackling mad scientist/warlord. Half Chang, half Dr. Soren, a dash of Goffrey from Game of Thrones. Probably would have a base filled with traps. Maybe some Portal-inspired taunting of the player. And we get to fight him.
How cathartic would it be for Wil Wheaton to be Terran Emperor Wesley? For him because he gets to do a heel turn (he seems to love those on BBT and The Guild) and gets to actively taunt people who made fun of him as Wesley. And cathartic for many fans because they get to kill Wesley.
When I told several friends that Voyager cast were in STO, the first question was always, "Do we get to kill Neelix?"
Oh yes. I like this idea. :cool:
"Critics who say that the optimistic utopia Star Trek depicted is now outmoded forget the cultural context that gave birth to it: Star Trek was not a manifestation of optimism when optimism was easy. Star Trek declared a hope for a future that nobody stuck in the present could believe in. For all our struggles today, we haven’t outgrown the need for stories like Star Trek. We need tales of optimism, of heroes, of courage and goodness now as much as we’ve ever needed them."
-Thomas Marrone
The revamp can't come soon enough.
But if it's coming... Will it also finally come with a new DS9 map? And if so, doesn't hat suggest the revamp is still months off?
Well, maybe this isn't ONE revamp.
There are really three fronts there. Mirror, True Way, Dominion.
Maybe they get addressed in phases?
True Way could be largely addressed without a DS9 revamp if they actually tried to prevent reducing the number of episodes by too much.
Then you rip the Mirror/Undine episodes out and replace them with a new DS9 map as an adventure zone version of Terok Nor.
Finally, you update regular DS9 social zone to the new more show accurate Terok Nor map and fix the Dominion series to use the new DS9 interior map.
So it could maybe happen over the course of three seasons.