Keep in mind that a lot of people here are confusing science as a class with science as a ship. The two are in no way linked. Also, don't let tactical's performance on the ground dissuade you from it. It's far and away the best of the three in space. Attack Pattern Alpha, Fire on My Mark, and Go Down Fighting are arguably just about the three best abilities in the game. With the new traits reducing captain cooldowns repeatedly.. they're only getting better.
Frankly, the difference is large enough that I've seen many argue for splitting up the DPS League records based on character class.. and the best argument against doing so is pretty much "Who doesn't run tac?".
I said it in the post above yours, but I'll say it again... which pretty much agrees with what the second half of your post is saying... if you run a Science Captain you kind of need to run a science ship to take advantage of the traits that a Science Captain is given. Otherwise you might as well run something else because a Science Captain offers nothing to another ship class that another Captain Class doesn't do better.
The only thing really a Science Captain in Space has going for it is exotic damage, and if you're going to go the exotic damage route, you need to go science vessel to make the most of it. Otherwise if you're going to only dabble (grav well I for example) just go tact or engineer.
Very true... but honestly if you're not going to fly a science ship you might as well be another class, there isn't anything in space that science can do that another class can't do better except come up with better science traits to influence exotic damage... which you really need a science ship to be good at.
I beg to differ. A tactical captain can put out far more exotic damage then a science captain can. Of course the same can be said when you compare a science and tactical captain in a cruiser or an escort.
And this brings us back to the why be anything but a tactical captain argument. If toping the DPS league is your goal the answer is; don't be anything but a tactical captain.
However if that's not important to you and you do actually want to play a science captain then don't let the DPS monkeys fool you. You don't need to do more then 15k DPS to be competitive in STO, if you want to be an engineer or a science captain go for it. Go down fighting and attack pattern alpha are not necessary to place in the 20k-50k DPS bracket.
And if you do want to be a science captain you can be so in an escort or cruiser just as happily as a science ship, in fact a science captain in an escort can wipe the floor with tactical captains, who find their stack of buffs to be as mysteriously gone as last nights rum.
I beg to differ. A tactical captain can put out far more exotic damage then a science captain can. Of course the same can be said when you compare a science and tactical captain in a cruiser or an escort.
And this brings us back to the why be anything but a tactical captain argument. If toping the DPS league is your goal the answer is; don't be anything but a tactical captain.
However if that's not important to you and you do actually want to play a science captain then don't let the DPS monkeys fool you. You don't need to do more then 15k DPS to be competitive in STO, if you want to be an engineer or a science captain go for it. Go down fighting and attack pattern alpha are not necessary to place in the 20k-50k DPS bracket.
And if you do want to be a science captain you can be so in an escort or cruiser just as happily as a science ship, in fact a science captain in an escort can wipe the floor with tactical captains, who find their stack off buffs to be as misteriusly gone as last nights rum.
Very true to what you say, but your whole arguement basically boils down to "tacs rock, but if you don't care about dps then this whole discussion doesn't matter."
Lets be honest the game is playable with any class in any ship, and any class on ground or space doing anything and surviving. If you don't care about being the top of the class in anything... nothing in this thread really matters because you can do everything with white gear with a sci/cruiser, eng/sci or tac/anything and at the very least level. Really at the base who cares level STO is very forgiving. Hell you can do almost anything in anything with anything and PVE level in this game since the boffs do most of the work, and you really don't need any extra boff skills then what you can buy from the vendor or are given.
As a new lvl 59 KDF Science Captain of about 6 weeks of gaming, where do I start with science build in a dyson (zen) ship. All the guides I am finding are 2-3 years old. Ship builds are slightly more common, but everyone just talks about either a drain or torp build with no real details on consoles, BoFF or DoFF abilities. Never found a captains build yet....
I don't have a lot of EC or Dilithium, have access to Tier 3 in most reps... Will (hopefully) get the Torp at the end of CE event.
As a new lvl 59 KDF Science Captain of about 6 weeks of gaming, where do I start with science build in a dyson (zen) ship. All the guides I am finding are 2-3 years old. Ship builds are slightly more common, but everyone just talks about either a drain or torp build with no real details on consoles, BoFF or DoFF abilities. Never found a captains build yet....
I don't have a lot of EC or Dilithium, have access to Tier 3 in most reps... Will (hopefully) get the Torp at the end of CE event.
Any suggestions welcome
The reason the guides are 2-3 years old is that basically science wise not much has changed... there are some really really good discussions in the Academy (just search Science) that aren't guides per say... but are really nice.
Here's my suggestions is you're not using much... Science first takes some time to build up... don't expect overnight results... and forget the torp at the end of the CE event... it's junk for a proper science build.
Now these are my opinions...
First as a science captain ignore the destoryer set up of the dyson ships... it's a trap for a science captain... they're basically underpowered escorts... which suck for a Science captain... keep it in science mode.
Next... crafting... fast track your projectile and science crafting to 15 to get the traits and the torp/console... it's almost imperative... beams are tertiary for the omni beams... but you'll want those too...
Next power settings... max AUX... decent shields... meh wepons and engines... which is directly opposite what any other ship class will tell you...
Skills... grav well III is a must... I like Grav Welll III in my Commander slot and Tyken's in my LCDR but I also like Feedback pulse... as you can see exotic damage is becoming you major focus here...
Tractor Beam Repulsors... avoid them untill you get the BOff that reverses them and pulls things in instead of repulsers them... then grab those skills... those will become you FAW for science... but if you don't reverse them then annoy the hell out of your team mates (and you).
Reputation... Dyson is very very nice for this... grav torp is one of the best science torps in game... and the console is also very nice for science... obviously the space set (shield/engines/core/deflector) is also very nice though I prefer other for that... the Experimental Protonic weapon isn't bad either
Second torpedo is kind of a personal choice... some like the radiation torp from Undine... others like the neutronic from the Delta... and others simply like the level 15 torp (the particle emission plasma torp or PEP) since you really want to get to level 15 in torps anyway... personally I use all three... the Neutronic gives you access to the Isokinetic cannon and the PEP is just a really nice torp... I personally use a Dyson rep Grav Torp/Neutronic/PEP up front and an ancient Antiproton/Delta rep Phaser/Omni-turret on back. Space set currently is the Undine rep... but I also really like the Dyson and Delta rep Space sets... pick one... the Borg sets aren't bad either but more general purpose and less "science" then these.
Consoles... for lack of anything else from your post... use torp enhancing consoles in your tactical... the consoles from whatever reps you use for the torps for engineer or tactical... shield boosts for engineer (when you have room.) The most important thing for your science console slots is particle boosters or exotic damage boosters... When you get EC find some consoles that throw out powers that use exotic damage or boost it... or both (like the the Vaadwar console.)
That's what I can think of off hand with my partially drunken self...
Thanks for the information, it makes interesting reading. I've purchased a console from the Vaadwar box set and I have the leech one from KDF ship.
Have at the moment the Jem'Hadar 3pc space set and Breen 3pc set so far, not sure if they're of much use so far. Nearly forgot I have the Omni directional BA and Warp Core from the Ancient Obelisk set.
So reading between the lines it would appear to be grind rep and crafting skills and get the doffs
Arrgghhh so the doff is only available from a lock box or C-store DOFF pack.... thats going to be expensive >:(
Thanks for the information, it makes interesting reading. I've purchased a console from the Vaadwar box set and I have the leech one from KDF ship.
Have at the moment the Jem'Hadar 3pc space set and Breen 3pc set so far, not sure if they're of much use so far. Nearly forgot I have the Omni directional BA and Warp Core from the Ancient Obelisk set.
So reading between the lines it would appear to be grind rep and crafting skills and get the doffs
Pretty much yes... grind rep/crafting/ec... and hope for the best...
The Jem'Hadar makes a decent set for a drain build but then you're going back to energy hyrbid builds which isn't bad at all for a drain build...
I'm of the opinion that Science takes a bit more brain to play than Tactical Officers or Engineers tend to ask for off the bat. While playing any strong character or build intelligently is obviously going to help, Science isn't a class you always see the benefits off.
For example, you might choose to fly a drain ship as a Sci Officer. You taking power out of ships means they're easier to kill and generally have a harder time killing you or the team. However you don't actually see a whole lot that tells you that ship has less power, so others don't tend to realise what you're contributing. On the other hand you hit something with a decked out sensor scan, that's going to raise some eyebrows when the health on the targets suddenly begin plummeting like a lead brick.
When it comes to ground, like others have said Science makes a great tank and healer, only thing is pulling threat isn't quite as easy what with the 116's and Shotguns about, but it should be doable still. That said you don't need to tank everything, you just need to get the attention of a fair chunk of the enemies so the rest of your team has less to worry about. Of course you could also build a debuff sci, those always make missions easier regardless.
Science is a very flexible class on the whole though, so I dare say if you're inclined to learn to play one reasonably well you'll probably enjoy it.
Ten soldiers wisely led will beat a hundred without a head. - Euripides
I no longer do any Bug Hunting work for Cryptic. I may resume if a serious attempt to fix the game is made.
Thanks for the information, it makes interesting reading. I've purchased a console from the Vaadwar box set and I have the leech one from KDF ship.
I recommend you look into purchasing an Exotic Particle Field Exciter (EPFE) console from the Exchange if you do not have one already. It is a crafted science console that basically combines a Particle Generator and Field Generator (increases shield capacity) into one console.
The very rare EPFE Mk XII are fairly inexpensive (+30 Particle Generator, +20% max shield capacity), but naturally the higher mark ultra and epic versions will be more expensive... much more expensive. The best versions to get are the ones with the [PrtG] mod which boosts Particle Generator. For example, the ultra rare EPFE Mk XII [PrtG] is around +63 Particle Generator. However, it is not surprising that this is likely the most sought after mod so expect to pay more than an arm and a leg. The epic Mk XIV [PrtG] version gives +75 Particle Generator and +25% max shield capacity.
Since all my toons had a very rare Field Generator Mk XII, I decided to simply replace them with the very rare EPFE Mk XII since they were very inexpensive when I bought them. Except for 2 toons all my captains are flying a ship that can at least toss out a Gravity Well 1.
As a new lvl 59 KDF Science Captain of about 6 weeks of gaming, where do I start with science build in a dyson (zen) ship. All the guides I am finding are 2-3 years old. Ship builds are slightly more common, but everyone just talks about either a drain or torp build with no real details on consoles, BoFF or DoFF abilities. Never found a captains build yet....
I don't have a lot of EC or Dilithium, have access to Tier 3 in most reps... Will (hopefully) get the Torp at the end of CE event.
Any suggestions welcome
In addition to ladymyajha's excellent advice, I suggest looking at what the ship gives you in the way of a Secondary Deflector and making a cheap build off of that. You were given a Secondary Deflector but you can buy two others. Pick the secondary deflector you want to use and begin your build there.
In addition to creating a Particle Generator build, I would suggest using a Secondary Deflector that boosts Particle Gen Sci skills, you can also build a science console build (flow capacitor) to work off of the synergies of Secondary Deflector's boosting flow cap abilities. In short, use BOFF abilities listed by the secondary deflector and use doffs (Perhaps Deflector doffs that have a % chance to reduce Deflector ability recharge times) that reduce cool downs on those listed abilities. Then use science consoles Flow Capacitors, in this case, to boost the chosen BOFF abilities. You can pick up white and green Mark XII consoles for fairly cheap on the exchange to start you off, and then move onto Fleet equipment later.
If you choose to maximize your Aux power, you might want to think about relying on weapons that do not force you to use weapons power. If you mix energy and projectile weapons then think about keeping your weapon power as a second or third priority. Please search "Science skills STO" on the browser of your choice for interesting forum discussion on science powers, abilities, and tactical consoles.
Consider myself primarily into Science. All 4 of my Feds are Sci.
1 new KDF Sci, because I couldn't deal with lacking Sci abilities.
Other 3 all Tacs.
Zero Sci for Roms, at least for now. Roms don't have a Vesta-equivalent to my knowledge, where you can keep max Aux with Aux-powered DHCs and also have 5 slots for Sci consoles, +power for aux, sci BOFF stations, sensor analylsis, and subsystem targeting.
That said, if there was a true Science Romulan Ship, with the singularity abilities, I'd jump on it instantly, and might even consider a Delta Recruit to be Rom/KDF-Science.
Why? Because I like multitask-intensive ships like the Vestas, the Rom Dreadnoughts, or any intel ships. Romulans are the best for that due to singularity powers, and while the trade-off for drastically lower power levels across the other subsystems can be restrictive at times, the benefits do pay off.
The way I see it, with the original pay to play STO, Feds were the baby novice faction, KDF the advanced, and then much later when Roms arrived the elite faction. KDF had enhanced battle cloak ability, BoP, carrier, plasmonic, aceton, more risky DOFF missions, and were restricted to L50 Feds only.
Roms are the latest half-faction that I wish were made into a full faction who can again remind all others about why they should be Feared, perhaps as a Star Empire faction choice that tolerates the Romulan Republic but not their allies. Their enhanced battle cloaks, superior technology, and singularity abilities makes them the most demanding to fly.
So if you like the greater complexity that comes from a Sci in a Sci ship, have a fleet or pre-made team that knows how to work well together, or want to max out in complexity/multi-tasking with a Rom Sci if they are ever given a T6 Science Ship with singularity abilities, intel, and enhanced battle cloak that rivals the Rom Dreadnoughts, then go for it. But if you're really happy with Engis already for reasons you can't really explain, then stick with them so there's no regret later on like I have with wanting a Sci KDF & Rom.
Comments
I said it in the post above yours, but I'll say it again... which pretty much agrees with what the second half of your post is saying... if you run a Science Captain you kind of need to run a science ship to take advantage of the traits that a Science Captain is given. Otherwise you might as well run something else because a Science Captain offers nothing to another ship class that another Captain Class doesn't do better.
The only thing really a Science Captain in Space has going for it is exotic damage, and if you're going to go the exotic damage route, you need to go science vessel to make the most of it. Otherwise if you're going to only dabble (grav well I for example) just go tact or engineer.
I beg to differ. A tactical captain can put out far more exotic damage then a science captain can. Of course the same can be said when you compare a science and tactical captain in a cruiser or an escort.
And this brings us back to the why be anything but a tactical captain argument. If toping the DPS league is your goal the answer is; don't be anything but a tactical captain.
However if that's not important to you and you do actually want to play a science captain then don't let the DPS monkeys fool you. You don't need to do more then 15k DPS to be competitive in STO, if you want to be an engineer or a science captain go for it. Go down fighting and attack pattern alpha are not necessary to place in the 20k-50k DPS bracket.
And if you do want to be a science captain you can be so in an escort or cruiser just as happily as a science ship, in fact a science captain in an escort can wipe the floor with tactical captains, who find their stack of buffs to be as mysteriously gone as last nights rum.
Very true to what you say, but your whole arguement basically boils down to "tacs rock, but if you don't care about dps then this whole discussion doesn't matter."
Lets be honest the game is playable with any class in any ship, and any class on ground or space doing anything and surviving. If you don't care about being the top of the class in anything... nothing in this thread really matters because you can do everything with white gear with a sci/cruiser, eng/sci or tac/anything and at the very least level. Really at the base who cares level STO is very forgiving. Hell you can do almost anything in anything with anything and PVE level in this game since the boffs do most of the work, and you really don't need any extra boff skills then what you can buy from the vendor or are given.
As a new lvl 59 KDF Science Captain of about 6 weeks of gaming, where do I start with science build in a dyson (zen) ship. All the guides I am finding are 2-3 years old. Ship builds are slightly more common, but everyone just talks about either a drain or torp build with no real details on consoles, BoFF or DoFF abilities. Never found a captains build yet....
I don't have a lot of EC or Dilithium, have access to Tier 3 in most reps... Will (hopefully) get the Torp at the end of CE event.
Any suggestions welcome
The reason the guides are 2-3 years old is that basically science wise not much has changed... there are some really really good discussions in the Academy (just search Science) that aren't guides per say... but are really nice.
Here's my suggestions is you're not using much... Science first takes some time to build up... don't expect overnight results... and forget the torp at the end of the CE event... it's junk for a proper science build.
Now these are my opinions...
First as a science captain ignore the destoryer set up of the dyson ships... it's a trap for a science captain... they're basically underpowered escorts... which suck for a Science captain... keep it in science mode.
Next... crafting... fast track your projectile and science crafting to 15 to get the traits and the torp/console... it's almost imperative... beams are tertiary for the omni beams... but you'll want those too...
Next power settings... max AUX... decent shields... meh wepons and engines... which is directly opposite what any other ship class will tell you...
Skills... grav well III is a must... I like Grav Welll III in my Commander slot and Tyken's in my LCDR but I also like Feedback pulse... as you can see exotic damage is becoming you major focus here...
Tractor Beam Repulsors... avoid them untill you get the BOff that reverses them and pulls things in instead of repulsers them... then grab those skills... those will become you FAW for science... but if you don't reverse them then annoy the hell out of your team mates (and you).
Reputation... Dyson is very very nice for this... grav torp is one of the best science torps in game... and the console is also very nice for science... obviously the space set (shield/engines/core/deflector) is also very nice though I prefer other for that... the Experimental Protonic weapon isn't bad either
Second torpedo is kind of a personal choice... some like the radiation torp from Undine... others like the neutronic from the Delta... and others simply like the level 15 torp (the particle emission plasma torp or PEP) since you really want to get to level 15 in torps anyway... personally I use all three... the Neutronic gives you access to the Isokinetic cannon and the PEP is just a really nice torp... I personally use a Dyson rep Grav Torp/Neutronic/PEP up front and an ancient Antiproton/Delta rep Phaser/Omni-turret on back. Space set currently is the Undine rep... but I also really like the Dyson and Delta rep Space sets... pick one... the Borg sets aren't bad either but more general purpose and less "science" then these.
Consoles... for lack of anything else from your post... use torp enhancing consoles in your tactical... the consoles from whatever reps you use for the torps for engineer or tactical... shield boosts for engineer (when you have room.) The most important thing for your science console slots is particle boosters or exotic damage boosters... When you get EC find some consoles that throw out powers that use exotic damage or boost it... or both (like the the Vaadwar console.)
That's what I can think of off hand with my partially drunken self...
Have at the moment the Jem'Hadar 3pc space set and Breen 3pc set so far, not sure if they're of much use so far. Nearly forgot I have the Omni directional BA and Warp Core from the Ancient Obelisk set.
So reading between the lines it would appear to be grind rep and crafting skills and get the doffs
Arrgghhh so the doff is only available from a lock box or C-store DOFF pack.... thats going to be expensive >:(
Pretty much yes... grind rep/crafting/ec... and hope for the best...
The Jem'Hadar makes a decent set for a drain build but then you're going back to energy hyrbid builds which isn't bad at all for a drain build...
For example, you might choose to fly a drain ship as a Sci Officer. You taking power out of ships means they're easier to kill and generally have a harder time killing you or the team. However you don't actually see a whole lot that tells you that ship has less power, so others don't tend to realise what you're contributing. On the other hand you hit something with a decked out sensor scan, that's going to raise some eyebrows when the health on the targets suddenly begin plummeting like a lead brick.
When it comes to ground, like others have said Science makes a great tank and healer, only thing is pulling threat isn't quite as easy what with the 116's and Shotguns about, but it should be doable still. That said you don't need to tank everything, you just need to get the attention of a fair chunk of the enemies so the rest of your team has less to worry about. Of course you could also build a debuff sci, those always make missions easier regardless.
Science is a very flexible class on the whole though, so I dare say if you're inclined to learn to play one reasonably well you'll probably enjoy it.
I recommend you look into purchasing an Exotic Particle Field Exciter (EPFE) console from the Exchange if you do not have one already. It is a crafted science console that basically combines a Particle Generator and Field Generator (increases shield capacity) into one console.
The very rare EPFE Mk XII are fairly inexpensive (+30 Particle Generator, +20% max shield capacity), but naturally the higher mark ultra and epic versions will be more expensive... much more expensive. The best versions to get are the ones with the [PrtG] mod which boosts Particle Generator. For example, the ultra rare EPFE Mk XII [PrtG] is around +63 Particle Generator. However, it is not surprising that this is likely the most sought after mod so expect to pay more than an arm and a leg. The epic Mk XIV [PrtG] version gives +75 Particle Generator and +25% max shield capacity.
Since all my toons had a very rare Field Generator Mk XII, I decided to simply replace them with the very rare EPFE Mk XII since they were very inexpensive when I bought them. Except for 2 toons all my captains are flying a ship that can at least toss out a Gravity Well 1.
In addition to ladymyajha's excellent advice, I suggest looking at what the ship gives you in the way of a Secondary Deflector and making a cheap build off of that. You were given a Secondary Deflector but you can buy two others. Pick the secondary deflector you want to use and begin your build there.
In addition to creating a Particle Generator build, I would suggest using a Secondary Deflector that boosts Particle Gen Sci skills, you can also build a science console build (flow capacitor) to work off of the synergies of Secondary Deflector's boosting flow cap abilities. In short, use BOFF abilities listed by the secondary deflector and use doffs (Perhaps Deflector doffs that have a % chance to reduce Deflector ability recharge times) that reduce cool downs on those listed abilities. Then use science consoles Flow Capacitors, in this case, to boost the chosen BOFF abilities. You can pick up white and green Mark XII consoles for fairly cheap on the exchange to start you off, and then move onto Fleet equipment later.
If you choose to maximize your Aux power, you might want to think about relying on weapons that do not force you to use weapons power. If you mix energy and projectile weapons then think about keeping your weapon power as a second or third priority. Please search "Science skills STO" on the browser of your choice for interesting forum discussion on science powers, abilities, and tactical consoles.
1 new KDF Sci, because I couldn't deal with lacking Sci abilities.
Other 3 all Tacs.
Zero Sci for Roms, at least for now. Roms don't have a Vesta-equivalent to my knowledge, where you can keep max Aux with Aux-powered DHCs and also have 5 slots for Sci consoles, +power for aux, sci BOFF stations, sensor analylsis, and subsystem targeting.
That said, if there was a true Science Romulan Ship, with the singularity abilities, I'd jump on it instantly, and might even consider a Delta Recruit to be Rom/KDF-Science.
Why? Because I like multitask-intensive ships like the Vestas, the Rom Dreadnoughts, or any intel ships. Romulans are the best for that due to singularity powers, and while the trade-off for drastically lower power levels across the other subsystems can be restrictive at times, the benefits do pay off.
The way I see it, with the original pay to play STO, Feds were the baby novice faction, KDF the advanced, and then much later when Roms arrived the elite faction. KDF had enhanced battle cloak ability, BoP, carrier, plasmonic, aceton, more risky DOFF missions, and were restricted to L50 Feds only.
Roms are the latest half-faction that I wish were made into a full faction who can again remind all others about why they should be Feared, perhaps as a Star Empire faction choice that tolerates the Romulan Republic but not their allies. Their enhanced battle cloaks, superior technology, and singularity abilities makes them the most demanding to fly.
So if you like the greater complexity that comes from a Sci in a Sci ship, have a fleet or pre-made team that knows how to work well together, or want to max out in complexity/multi-tasking with a Rom Sci if they are ever given a T6 Science Ship with singularity abilities, intel, and enhanced battle cloak that rivals the Rom Dreadnoughts, then go for it. But if you're really happy with Engis already for reasons you can't really explain, then stick with them so there's no regret later on like I have with wanting a Sci KDF & Rom.