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Science Path
philhodgson
Member Posts: 123 Arc User
With the Delta Recruitment that's coming up, I thought I'd use the free alt slot to have a go, but I have pretty much maxxed out the characters that I have - I've done them - and I want a bit of variety.
I'm an Eng player through and through - I love dropping an oribital strike on people when the going gets tough, and having miracle worker has saved me in a lot of fights.
Even so, I'm thinking now about other paths. I've tried Tac before, and I just wasn't satisfied with with it, and I quickly went back to Engineering.
Which got me thinking about Science. Is the Science path worth doing? I've heard it has some good abilities, but is lacking in the level 50+ content. Is Photonic Fleet and Subnucleonic beam going to be much better than the EPS Power transfer and Miracle workers abilities I've got used to?
Basically - Are Science Captains any good? Especially for a Romulan?
Thanks in advance!
I'm an Eng player through and through - I love dropping an oribital strike on people when the going gets tough, and having miracle worker has saved me in a lot of fights.
Even so, I'm thinking now about other paths. I've tried Tac before, and I just wasn't satisfied with with it, and I quickly went back to Engineering.
Which got me thinking about Science. Is the Science path worth doing? I've heard it has some good abilities, but is lacking in the level 50+ content. Is Photonic Fleet and Subnucleonic beam going to be much better than the EPS Power transfer and Miracle workers abilities I've got used to?
Basically - Are Science Captains any good? Especially for a Romulan?
Thanks in advance!
Post edited by philhodgson on
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That said, this game isn't all that alt friendly, so IMHO it doesn't pay to make too many characters if.
Subnucleonic Beam has limited use in PvE, since enemies don't pop 30 buffs before an alpha strike, but it still has its uses (including against the Crystalline Entity).
Sensor Scan is a great damage buff that helps your entire team and also works well with the kind of area effets that many science bridge officer powers provide (though remember that you're not limited to science vessels, if you rather fly an escort or a cruiser, science works great with those, too).
Science Fleet and Dampening Field give you good defensive buffs.
Photonic Fleet adds a bit of extra power to your offense.
Science also is very interesting on the ground. It has a few neat area effect powers, and also can back it up with some healing powers. I think on the ground, I like Science the most. (I am not that much into pets, to be honest, though Engineers are certainly a strong contender, where as Tacs feel... boring.)
I am not sure what you mean by lacking Level 50+ content? Story and missions only differ by faction, not career path.
You can fly any ship, but if you want to fly science vessels for a Science Captain, on the Fed side, Pathfinder, Scryer and Dauntless are great Tier 6 science ships, and the Vesta Tier 5 Upgrade is a strong contender.
On the Romulan side, I think the Faeht is also great for Science Captains thanks to its Lt.Cmdr Science slot.
Especially on a romulan since the selection of endgame sci ships is "limited" (a.k.a. TRIBBLE poor:mad:), same for kdf.
Sci is a class for min/max builds, which means you need to be prepaired to spend some real good amount on gear and especially some doffs.
This. Cryptic really did a good job to kill the alt friendliness they built up prior DR.
I wasn't meaning unique content, I was just referring to the endgame content, that basically science captains were lacking in skills for that level in comparison to eng/tac.
I had heard that the sci ships were lacking kdf and roms, but I probably wouldn't focus on Sci ships anyway - I tend to like ships like the D'D that can take a lot of punishment, but can also throw out a gravity well. That was why I was concerned about the loss of EPS Transfer - I always use a plasmonic leach, but I would need to find other ways to get my Aux power up without sacrificing shields/weapons.
I think I got most my DOFFs from regular DOFFIng over the years. Damage Control Engineers and those Gravity Well Aftershock guys, mostly. The DCEs I have on every char.
The gear I have is mostly reputation sets, which... Well, I try to have sets on every character, regardless of class.
The most specific stuff I have on my Science chars are the torpedoes (Gravimetric Torpedo, Biomolecular Torpedo from the Dyson and Counter-Command.)
EptS replaces any need for having high innate shields power, I think. Of course, you could also use EptA. Damage Control Engineers will keep your cooldowns low even without Aux2Bat (Aux2Bat would be counter-productive, unless you are really good about your timing).
Gravity Well is currently IMO the best Science Bridge Officer power to have in PvE. It deals good damage, but its crowd control effect is also useful in most STFs. (Of course, Science Team and Hazard Emitters are also quite useful.)
That said, specifically rom sci is bad. There are zero top ships and few lower tier ships. Your *first* science ship is at level 40 I think. Then you can replace it at 50 IF you have a maxed out fleet and want to spend big money on a sub-par ship. Or you can buy a dyson. That is ALL you get... there is no t6 sci ship, and the t5Us are weak (dyson has less sci seating and haanom has no advantages, its just a generic boat). My rom sci uses the breen carrier, tal shier cruiser and the recluse as "science" ships.
What rom sci capatains do *well* is a hybrid build. That is, a not quite science ship packing loads of gun firepower. You use the two ideas, science AND guns, to do significant damage. You need specific ships for this .... again, the tal shier cruiser or the breen carrier are excellent picks for this idea. The science command cruiser is also pretty good at it. There are a couple of others that work well too. There are many ways to approach this idea from really, really heavy guns (escort with a lt sci slot and say 3 sci consoles) to nearly pure sci (cmdr sci 4 sci consoles).
Maybe a cruiser is better, you can be a Shield tank, and Hull tank in second, and you have more weapons and the Command to Attract fire, and the Command to Tank with shields.
Back in my PvP days, the best healer used to be someone playing a Science/Cruiser build. Of course, healers are not tanks, but a healer that blows up easily usually isn't very good, either.
Romulan sci is a problem because there is no T6 ship. The Breen carrier is science-themed and supports grav well / tyken 3 but it isn't a science ship with scan and secondary deflector. Fed is by far best for science right now.
Maybe enough people will create Romulan and KDF alts during the Recruitment event that Cryptic will think about supporting Romulans more but who knows?
Perhaps you could go with an Alien fed and give them a Romulan look.
Yes. A science captain, just like an engineer or a tactical captain, can fly anything with any build and do very well.
Completely false. If some ones experience of level 50+ content with their science captain has been lacklustre the blame can be placed on the player. If you know what your doing and build your ship and kit appropriately there is no reason you shouldn't be able to out DPS 9/10 Tacs and out tank 9/10 engineers. (admittedly the average player in this game sets the bar very low)
Captain abilities are nice, but they shouldn't be necessary for you to maintain the required performance level to complete content. If you realy need miracle worker to stay alive, or EPS Power transfer to keep your power levels high then there is something you could improve about your build.
The same can be said for science and tactical abilities. A tactical captain who cant brake 20k DPS without attack pattern alpha or go down fighting, or a science captain who needs Subnuke to PVP has work to do.
On the ground science captains can both tank and heal better then any other captain type.
In space their abilities are not all as universally useful to all situations as a tactical or engineering captain's abilities are.
Scattering field is a defensive ability you need to use before you need it, unlike miracle worker which you use after you take the big hit, so it takes more foresight to utilize, especially if you want to provide its benefit to allies who need to stay in range.
Subnuke has been nurfed several times over the years and still make PVP'ers cry. Sadly in PvE you will mostly use it for those few ships that utilize tactical team, feedback pulse or high yield, and not much else.
Photonic fleet was hugely overpowered back when STO was new. It got nurffed and became a gimmick for a long time. More recently it has received a few buffs and actually contributes some meaningfull damage again now.
Now all this said. The 'Romulans' part of your question changes the answer from a Yes to a No.
The reason is not the lack of romulan science ships. A science captain doesn't bring much to a science ship and in most situations (not all) doesn't benefit from using one any more then a tac or engineer dose.
The reason is that romulans have one big weekness and one big advantage. Low power levels, and high damage potential. A romulan tac has the potential for grater damage output then any one else in the game, playing to this strength completely obsoletes the advantages that subnuke or photonic fleet would bring.
Romulan ships lack subsystems power, which both sensor scan and scattering field benefit from. For running science bridge officer abilities an engineer has a far easyer time boosting the power levels for higher aux.
And..
Let me be the first to welcome you to Hogwarts School for ScienceCraft.
Here you shall learn the ways of space magic !
.
I have three science captains; one in each faction. The Federation faction is by far the best faction for a science captain due to the variety of starships. The KDF and Romulans... not so much. My Fed sci captain flies the T6 Dauntless science vessel; it a bit more tactical oriented than the T6 Scryer science vessel and more importantly it does not look like a doughnut with engines. It's pretty fun to fly.
My KDF science captain flies a T5u B'rel BoP Retrofit since the KDF does not have a T5 science ship other than the T5 Varanus which is okay and the Dyson Science Destroyers, but you need to spend more Zen to upgrade them to T5u. Besides I have already upgraded the T5 B'rel BoP Retrofit for my KDF tactical toon. It is decent enough for now to be used as a science vessel.
The Romulans... I cannot figure out why the Romulans do not have many science vessels since some of the ST:TNG episodes portray the Romulans to be somewhat "sciencey". The KDF I can understand... blast your enemy until it is dead, then blast it 10 more times to make sure it is dead, then run some science tests. In my opinion, the Romulan faction is the worst faction for a science toon. Why....?
Romulan ships use a singularity core. It grants singularity abilities to your ship, but it will cost you 40 power points. Excluding any bonuses, warp cores give you 200 point to distribute into your subsystems. Singularity cores only give you 160 points to distribute into your subsystems. Prior to Delta Rising it was possible for a Romulan science toon to play end game content with the T5 Ha'nom (basically the only Romulan science vessel and you need to wait until level 40 to get it); it was a bit tough but doable. Delta Rising made the game into a DPS race and this is what has truly nerfed Romulan science captain because now you really do need power in both weapons and auxiliary subsystems whereas before Delta Rising you could neglect weapon power a little bit.
The Plasmonic Leech is a really nice console to have. However, for a Romulan science toon flying a Romulan starship, it is absolutely mandatory. My toon is aligned to the Fed so I would need to spend 35 million - 40 million EC to purchase one from the Exchange. With very high Flow Capacitor skills, the Plamonic Leech give back most of the power taken away by the singularity core.
I actually considered deleting my Romulan science toon due to the power penalty of the singularity core. Back around August or September 2014 when Cryptic had a 4 day giveaway event Fed aligned Rom toons were able to claim the T5 Ambassador Support Cruiser; they were not supposed to, but Cryptic overlooked a bug. It's not a Romulan ship and it only has a Lt Cmdr science station, but at least it made playing that toon fun again.
There are no Romulan T6 science vessels, but at least the Winter Event provided the Breen Carrier for free which has a Cmdr science station and it is the ship that my Rom science toon is currently flying. I suppose the T6 Faeht Warbird could be used by a Romulan science toon, but it only has a Lt Cmdr science station. I am sure one of the Romulan T6 Command Cruiser does also has a Lt Cmdr science station.
If you want to play a Romulan science toon, then I recommend you consider purchasing one of the T5 lockbox science oriented starships (excluding Mirror Universe ships) from the Exchange since they can be upgrade to T5u for free. I purchased the T5 Temporal Science Vessel for about 145 million EC, but I have not unboxed it.
Engineer: Bulk yourself up and stay in the fight.
Science: Force multiplying flexibility to adapt to any situation.
Science has several tools that run the gambit. As such, they have a tool for most situations they encounter.
Have a target that's being a tough nut to crack? Throw down Sensor Scan to soften it up and Subnuke it to strip it of buffs(which can also be used as a defense tool to strip attack buffs).
Are you or your allies getting pummeled and need a little breathing room? Throw down Scattering Field or Photonic Fleet - the former reduces damage to everyone around you(including pets and even projectiles); the latter will draw aggro and deal some decent damage in the process.
You've also got Science Fleet which is pretty good at keeping the shields of your party alive - a lot of people tend to overlook it in grouped play.
On ground, Science is able to run a kit that locks down multiple targets(Electro-Gravity Field) and AoE bomb them for nasty damage(-Thermic Induction Field). They have solid ground heals for both single target(Medical Nanites) and AoE(Triage). The Medical Vanguard captain trait also gives them a small bit of shield restoration every time they heal. They're not as spammy on ground as Engineers, but they're very effective when you're smart about skill activation.
If you're talking about science-themed ship builds, the main thing to keep in mind is that you'll generally want to specialize in them as hard as you would an energy weapon build(often investing in energy/kinetic weapon skills at the same time). This means maxing out your Flow Capacitor or Particle Generator skill like you would weapon skills and then using your Science consoles(and deflector choice) like you would tactical damage consoles.
You should have seen Science Captains and Science BOFF abilities when this game launched. They were amazing in every possible build style.
Science ground is pretty darn good, with heals (including self heals), CC, and damage kit abilities allowing you to play how you want to play pretty much. On the ground I rate it science >engineer >>>>> tactical. Engineer you can heal your shields and drop turrets (that both heal and do damage)... tactical you... do damage and hope your BOffs can help mitigate damage for you.
In space Science is one of those classes that suck until they're great. Grav well and Tyken's Rift are really good... but to make it truely shine you need a bunch of exotic damage traits and DOffs and such. Tractor Beam Repulsors suck until you get the DOff to reverse them then they're great.
The biggest issue with Science in space is the ships really. Science ships lack weapon hardpoints and tactical consoles and BO slots... so you tend to rely less and less on tact and more on exotic damage and torps. Other ships tend to move you to only using Grav Well I which is a good power but not even close to what you can do with a fully tricked out Grav Well III.
So Science in space is a lot of trying to figure out what you want to do a long time prior to you getting there.
But I will say this, once you get there Science can be one of the hardest hitting ships out there that can frustrate the hell out of almost anything else going on. It just takes time and planning to get there.
As to the specific Romulan Faction... you're pretty much relegated to not using Science Space abilities to the max anyway since the Romulan faction has zero decent Science ships (without getting into lockbox ships). So generally you're going to build a science-hybrid ship anyway which helps with your decision making.
Edit: One thing to remember too about Science is that they play differently then a lot of other classes. The current belief is you max out your weapon energy and leave aux at bare minimum. If you plan on using Grav Well at all, you need to concider raising your aux up, and if you go with a torp/exotic build you can safely tank your weapon energy... which is pretty much counter to standard STO practice. The issue with Romulans and other Hybrid science builds (using energy weapons and science abilities) is you'll want a high weapon and aux energy... at the same time and you'll need to decide what takes a hit.
My character Tsin'xing
Or a Grav Torp spread =D
It's all about the Plasma Emission Seeking Whatever-Freaking Torpedo (R&D Lv15 Projectiles special torpedo). If you have a PGen/Exotic Dmg based build, it's an amazing weapon. Guaranteed AOE plasma burns that will snare your opponents. Fired into a GW ball, it's great stuff. Unlike the occasions where the Dyson Torps don't pop their rifts.
Side Note:
You have to put in the effort and resources if you want a good Science-based, Particle Generator-based build. But one can say the same thing if you wanted to kit out for a high-end TAC-based build.
My character Tsin'xing
Pop a Grav Well III... pull all the fragments together... pop the Grav Torp which causes nice pretty red wells to go along with your Grav Well (similiar to the tricobolt wells just red)... oh and they slow down the fragments after your grav well is done... meaning you pop a tyken's and a grav torp spread for extra fun.
And thank you, by the way, for dangling the idea of spawning a new character for the upcoming event who would be based on Agatha Hetreodyne or Yuina Himoo...
Tricobalts with spread are lovely. I like to drop a Tyken's Rift and then a TS of Particle Emission Plasma (PEP) torpedoes to snare a few ships to further their drain.
Ooooooo... I didn't think of that one.... now I have to try that! :eek:
In ground I love to group or single target heal, do mass debuff, Do the gravity thing then light a fire under 'em, Finish by laying some rather nasty and infectious nano on them, and shoot what ever is left standing. Works pretty much the same for most boss mobs. And thats just my favorite kit powers. And there are some rather nice command spec modules you can slot in your in your kit. Some of the Intel powers complement the Sci bag of tricks rather nicely.
Ship selection.. thats a toughy. KDF side Sci can do quite well in one of the T5/T5U/T6 Battle cruisers. Where they surprisingly shine though is in Destroyer class ships.
And frankly any of the Destroyer class ships in the KDF line up are awesome stuff. They are how ever almost all special event or special award and lock box ships. The Temporal Science Ships and the mirror Temporal Destroyers (both are upgradeable to T5U). The Vet DD, it's T5U version, the fleet Vet DD, and the fleet T5U. And Lets not forget the Dyson ships... even the plain vanilla Dyson has a T5U version. Same applies in all cased with Feds... who grumbles a bit... have way way WAY to daggone much to play with in the form of Science ships.
Sci can be fun..But the captain simply adds to the ships abilities, and has some fun little PvE toys to always play with such as Photonic Fleet.
Romulan Sci captains may have a very limited selection of ships at end game, but the ones they got are totally nasty. Toss a Rom Sci ship with singularity powers and battle cloak out there with a properly set up sci captain and.. well.. try not to let your teeth get tooooooo long, for long in the tooth you shall be. And dangerous. Also a priority target in PvP.
with the new kit moduls can actually heal himself and dps like mad very fun melee character
Science could be toothless tomorrow with a patch to gravity wells and this has happened berfore more than once. I would not level a toon banking on gravity wells staying king
Science is good on ground the best overall I think with so many abilitys to choose from, and when ground elites come out will most likely be the best character
Engineer ....isn't the best but still fun and competitive on the ground
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
The determening factor of how you play space combat is the choice of ship, not your class. Class adds either firepower, utility or survivability.
Very true... but honestly if you're not going to fly a science ship you might as well be another class, there isn't anything in space that science can do that another class can't do better except come up with better science traits to influence exotic damage... which you really need a science ship to be good at.
Frankly, the difference is large enough that I've seen many argue for splitting up the DPS League records based on character class.. and the best argument against doing so is pretty much "Who doesn't run tac?".