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Guardian or Concorde?
cecil08
Member Posts: 163 Arc User
With the ship sale going on, I'd like to pick up a new ship, even if I don't start using it immediately. My character is an Engineer and currently flies the engineering variant of the Odyssey.
So like the title says, which would you pick? Guardian seems closest to what I'm flying now but if the Concorde can get me further, I'd be willing to change my style a bit.
What do you think?
So like the title says, which would you pick? Guardian seems closest to what I'm flying now but if the Concorde can get me further, I'd be willing to change my style a bit.
What do you think?
Post edited by cecil08 on
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With Argala being XP nerfed then it will be harder to level up past 60 now, so to get the most from the Concorde could take a long time.
That being said, if doing a straight up comparison between the Guardian and the Concord Command ships, the clear winner is the Guardian. Why?
Lets start with Tactical Options. The Concorde has a Lt. Tactical as well as a Lt. Universal meaning you cannot use Lt. Commander or Commander Tactical abilities on the Concorde. The Guardian has a Lt. Commander Tactical Station meaning that if you run beams you'll have access to Beam Fire at Will III which the Concorde cannot do.
Durability: Both ships feature a Commander Engineering but the Concordes is a Hybrid Command station. The Guardian has a Lt Engineering/Intelligence station which lets you use Override Subsystem Safties as well as Ionic Turbulence or whatever ability you wish. Simply put, these abilities are both superior to anything that Command has to offer with the only possible exception of Overwhelm Emitters which is actually a really good skill. The Concorde has 5 Engineering Consoles, the Guardian has 1 less. However, at some point, the Guardian will gain this extra console through it's fleet version. This will of course require at least 1 fleet module, so keep that in mind as well.
Science: Again, Guardian is superior boasting a Lt. Commander Science Station over the Concorde which has a Lt. Science/Command hybrid station.
Console: Draw.. both consoles are pretty awesome.
Ship Trait: Guardian in a landslide. The Concorde trait is a joke.
The Concorde has a stronger hull and a superior shield modifier due to the fact that it's a Fleet Level ship, the Guardian will require an extra purchase down the road to even out in this area.
As much as I love the Command Cruisers (I have the three pack and love the Science ship with the Presidio trait) if I could only purchase 1 Tier 6 Cruiser, it would be the Guardian. It's simply put, the most versatile single Fed ship available. It's console and use of intel abilities allow it to be a solid damage ship that can take a beating and throw Gravity Wells.
I also own a Guardian and I can tell you firsthand that it's a great ship.
Get the Phantom and the Presidio.
The traits are both OP.
Other than that... I can't really say one way or the other as I have only flown the Samsar.
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Edit: To clarify.. as I'm sure some will freak over this opinion of the Guardian.. it's gimped because it's only got three 3 tactical consoles and really gains nothing in return for that loss. It's got a hybrid intel seat, but it's a Lt Engineer slot.. so you don't gain access to much of anything and possibly have to sacrifice a DEM 1 to gain an intel ability. Compare that to the Eclipse.. which also has 3 tactical consoles, but gains a Commander intel seat (while maintaining a separate Lt Comm Eng seat too for EPTW 3) - allowing you to trade a Lt Comm and the Comm eng powers for OSS3 and SS3. That gives the Eclipse a HUGE punch. The only advantage the Guardian has is the Lt Comm science seating.. which isn't much of an advantage considering the eclipse has a Lt Sci/Intel seat, and the Guardian isn't likely to be maximizing science damage in the way a dedicated science ship would. It's a jack of all trades boat, that in the end isn't very good at anything. If you're looking for an intel setup - use the Eclipse.
The Concorde is an engineering version of a ship. These. are. never. used.
The only exception I can think of is the engineering version of the Andorian escort. Some used that because it wasn't quite as glass cannon-y while still maintaining most of the firepower. In other cases, there's just flat out no point in sacrificing tactical power for engineering power.. engineering slots are only used for universal consoles anyway, because there's nothing better to put there.
If anything, get the Presidio. It's the tactical version of the command ship, which is the only version that's really ever worth considering. The trait is extremely potent, especially when combined with the Phantom's trait. I picked one up for this reason, and have been flying it since. It's a mostly "average" ship (in a game where most are terribly gimped for one reason or another), it's got everything required to be competitive but isn't scimitar level OP. In the end though, like any "average" ship.. you can build it to do 50k or more.. or you can get outdps'd by your own hanger pets five times over. Or - you can run the wrong hanger pets, still be that bad.. and get outdps'd by someone else's hanger pets. As for Command Specialization and/or Powers.. I don't use either. The powers are bad, and the spec is inferior to intel for most setups. I run my Presidio like I would any T5-U FAW Cruiser.
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She's got NOTHING on the Assault Cruiser. I used to fly the FACR pre-DR, and still take it out from time to time. The FACR has 4 tactical consoles and vastly superior tactical seating. Having the option to run three SRO tactical Boffs on the FACR gives it inherently better crit.
This is even more true if you decide to run an Aux2Batt setup, which while no longer the best option is still extremely viable for those trying to get from the low end up to the middle of the pack. In this case, the Guardian's science powers become extremely useless while the FACR excels as it has the option of dropping science entirely.
The Guardian's trait package also leaves something to be desired. It's got the full cruiser setup, and is entirely defensive. I believe the FACR has the same, but the Presidio and Eclipse both have battlecruiser packages so they gain some offensive traits as well (+crit chance or +crit damage if I recall correctly).
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The STANDARD Assault Cruiser has a Lt. Cmdr. Engie. The Assault Cruiser Refit (The one I'm referring to from the C-Store) Has a Lt. Cmdr. tac and a Lt. Universal. NO mandatory Science.
http://sto.gamepedia.com/Assault_Cruiser_Refit
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T5 ships aside though, if you're looking into T6 fed-specific boats the Presidio or Eclipse are your best bets atm. The Presidio has the advantage of being fleet level from the get go, so it'll have an additional console slot - while the eclipse has the advantage of intel powers (and will likely be the superior option in it's fleet T6 version, provided it gains the hoped for tactical console).
I'm sorry, but you just don't understand the Guardian at all.
The Guardian can out DPS the FACR any day, on any non Aux2Bat Build (In other words, any good build.)
The FACR has a Lt Commander Tactical and an Ensign Tactical. The Guardian has a Lt Commander Tactical and a Ensign Universal, so not seeing this 'vastly superior' tactical seating. Unless of course, you're skipping science all together and using the Lt. Universal for Tactical as well which would be an unnecessary and silly sacrifice.
You're way too hung up on that 1 extra tactical console. The Guardian lacks that one console but can make up for it by being able to use O.S.S. to push Weapon power above 125. The Guardian can also make up some DPS with AOE Gravity Wells which the FACR can't do.
The Guardians trait and console are both highly useful, the Console when active pushes DPS even higher. Your first reply where you say that Guardian is 'flat out terrible' just proves you have never used one and know very little about it. The ship comes with a Commander and 2 Lt. Commander stations, it's one of, if not the single most versatile Fed Ship that you can get.
The FACR can't touch the Guardian. The FACR is outclassed at Tier 5 by the Tactical Odyssey, it doesn't even rank with the T6 ships. I flew a FACR for a very long time, it's a great ship but it can't touch the Guardian.
This is even more useful on an Aux2Batt setup - which frankly, is generally your best bet on most federation cruisers.. until you can afford the Doffs and gear required for the higher tier setups. There's absolutely nothing wrong with Aux2Batt, it's just as good as it ever was. There are just better, albeit more expensive options out there now.
The fourth tactical console is important, it's extremely rare that a ship makes it to the top tier without four (or five even, in the case of romulans).. they make a difference, especially when you're throwing locators in. Between the extra SRO and locator you're looking at a huge amount of additional crit.
The guardian's gravity well is going to hit for next to nothing without a dedicated science setup supporting it, and the cooldown is going to be pretty darn long. You might get three GW's off in an ISA run.. maybe. They run around 2-2.5 minutes. Even then, the better your team gets the less those wells will do.. in a good run the spheres die almost instantly, making that long cooldown AoE DoT not so useful.
All of this is beside the point though. However the FACR stands relative to the T6 or Fleet T6 ships, the Guardian is quite outclassed by the Eclipse, which concentrates on doing one thing very well instead of being mediocre at everything. As for the Presidio.. my mind isn't made up yet. The seating and consoles are adequate, and the hanger slot / team dps buff can be put to very good use. The cost is the weapon efficiency buff and inability to run intel powers. That it can run command powers instead is inconsequential, as they're terrible. As it stands now, my Presidio and Eclipse do fairly similarly. My Guardian.. I leveled it. Then trashed it. Even the trait is unused now. It's not bad, but with only four slots Supremacy, All Hands on Deck, Reciprocity, and Improved Predictive Algorithms leave no place for Desperate Repairs.
Concorde - Probably the weakest of the Command Battlecruisers; it doesn't really excel at any role and you don't really gain much from using it over some of the eng-heavy T5(U) counterparts.
The Presidio is basically the love-child of the Tactical Odyssey and Regent that gets the best of both worlds(good tactical bridge seating, good maneuverability). It does lose the Attack Comm, but gains the ability to launch fighters, use Command Abilities, and equip dual cannons.
That said I did find a set up using one command power that I LOVE. Rally Marker, Comboed with the Anchored trait from the last lockbox(Like 6Mil on exchange)
Park in the middle of the TRIBBLE. Anchored goes up to +20% Damage, Cast Rally Marker III, Fleet Platform shortly After, then Rally Marker I, along with other heals in between.
The Presidios Trait gets Sci team and Hazzard on Global(Plus Captain Skills). Reprocity Keeps Tac skills global. 3 DCE's for EPTX global. Kobalit Engine drops healing skills. lol
Called the Ship Eveready, because every skill I need is always ready to go. I so far got it to tank 80% of ISA while parked for the Majority of it and do 30k. So in love with this ship. Can't do that in the guardian the same. Rally Marker III heals 32k Hull, 4k Shields, 360+ Hull Regen. And the Fleet Support Platform can only be used on a command ship.
EDIT: Hmm that said it did take the Concorde to get that Fleet Platform lol. Didn't think of that. I bought them both seperately DOH!.
So my opinion is Presidio all the way. Even without that setup Love the ship in the basic FAW and circle role.
BOFF layout beats console layout. For this reason the tac oddessy and the avenger beat them both. Both the odyssey and the avenger will allow you to equip lt cdr, lt, and ensign tac officers if you utilize the universal seats. The T5 avenger already has 4 tac consoles and the t5-u odyssey gains a 4th tac console. The FACR cannot hang with these.
The guardian is not horrible and with the intel seat you can make some usefull builds. The command*abilities don't seem useful enough to me to buy a command cruiser over a normal cruiser..
Any ship with the right setup can be effective, some are better than others but none are really flat out perfect. There is a trend toward dps centric builds, which makes sense in some content and with some play styles. However, that play style may not be yours, and that content may not be what you play.
The oddy is a fine ship, the only reason to up grade is if you want the new powers to play with or your looking for that little bit of extra edge because your at your limit.
Get the kobali cruiser, its pretty boss.
Not everything you see on the internet is true - Abraham Lincoln
Occidere populo et effercio confractus
Overwhelm Emitters is a nice ability. It's essentially a Valdore Console with a debuf to the enemy, very nice. It has a very short cool down so you get a lot of use out of it. I also like Suppression Barrage, not OP by any means, but not bad at all.
Hey, something we agree on!
Amen. The Tac Oddy and Avenger are head and shoulders above the FACR. That's why you see tons of both ships and the FACR is all but extinct. I loved my FACR, flew it for over a year and dominated in it, but it's been replaced by far better options.
In my experience, DPS wise, the Avenger takes 1st. The Tac Oddy and the Guardian are close enough to call it a draw, and the FACR is far in the rear view.
The FACR is superior in one area and one area only, and that's Aux2Bat builds.
Those are the only other 2 honarable mentions. But Overwhelm Emitters is like a poor mans Valdore console. 15% as shield generation still aint much. Supression Barrage it'd be nice to actually tell if it was doing something. Rally marker is instantly noticable, and stands out in all the Command skills IMO. But, night drop one Rally marker for Overwhelm again. As it is the kobali Impulse drops both my copies to global when I take to much damage so 2 copies of it is overkill.
The Avenger is a fine ship, I think it's the only federation specific cruiser we've got that can run DBB/Omni setups. As for the tactical odyssey, I wasn't aware that it gained the fourth tactical console on upgrading. That makes it as viable as the FACR, but in no way places it above it. Assuming you're using the universals as tactical slots, the only difference between them is that the Ody trades the Lt Eng slot for a Lt Sci slot. If anything, that's a dps loss because you're losing access to a DEM 1. Aside from that, the Ody is slightly less maneuverable and has a larger crew (not that that matters).
Whatever the case though, the Eclipse can do everything the FACR/Ody can but also gains a dps trait, defense debuff, and SS3/OSS3. It's the clear winner there. The Presidio - well, it's at least as good as the FACR/Ody.. and I'm betting better because it's turning the ensign universal into a Lt Uni, along with the hanger bay, dmg buff, and dps trait. I'd guess the Avenger is also likely on the level of these two, but that's kinda a moot point as it's a bit overshadowed by the new fleet T6 lobi ship which can fulfill the same DBB/Omni role.
Except doesn't overwhelm emitters grand that shield heal/steal to everyone who fires on that target?
And wouldn't that give it a greater net advantage in team content?
It's hard to compare the command abilities to the others since they are things designed to benefit multiple players per activation, and not just a single target.
Hell the advanced tachyon beam trait seems dull, bit then again a 20 player wide shield heal isn't something we already have.
Not everything you see on the internet is true - Abraham Lincoln
Occidere populo et effercio confractus
My build is pretty tanky and I'm still working on some other aspects of my build.
As for consoles - replace the tac consoles with spire locator consoles. Crit and crit damage is where dps comes from. Same goes for the engineering consoles (especially the chevron seperation) - those slots are used for universal consoles that add crit chance like the borg and romulan rep consoles, and the tachyokinetic/bioneural lobi consoles. A plasmonic leech is also incredibly powerful - more so than almost anything else out there. As for science, a few weeks ago embassy plasma would be best.. now, it's uncertain. Not really willing to make any recommendations there just yet, as I don't know what's best. That kobali console isn't terrible if you find yourself needing healing, but eventually it should be dropped for something damage related - in the end damage is just far more useful than healing, as it prevents you from needing healing.
Deflector/Shield/Engines - Most use romulan engines (buff to attack patterns is powerful), and nukara shields/deflector (1.5% dmg increase) or the counter-command deflector for the accuracy/energy weapons stats.
Warp Core - A spire warp core with W->A or W->S, along with an AMP mod. With a leech (and maybe a supremacy ship trait) it's extremely easy to max out all four subsystems and get the AMP bonus x4.
Boff powers -
Tactical - Beam Overload is terrible. Don't even run it, especially not in place of a higher level of FAW. Run Tac Team 1, FAW 2, Omega 1 / Tac Team 1, Beta 1 in your tac slots. If you have the inspirational leader trait, throw in an ensign torp skill either in the ensign uni slot (for another Superior Romulan Operative crit buff) or in place of one of the tac teams. Even without a torp, it'll still provide a free chance at proccing inspirational leader.
Engineering - Mostly okay here, but I'd personally swap out Eng Team 2 for DEM 1 and DEM 3 for Reverse Shield Polarity 3. It's a great "oh TRIBBLE" button, and the damage loss is minimal. The ensign uni can stay Eng Team 1 if you don't trade it out for another SRO tac boff.
Science - Mostly just preference here, nothing to increase damage. I run Hazard Emitters 1 and Transfer Shield Strength 2 personally, the cleanse and shield hardness buff is handy.
Can't speak to your skills/traits as they're not filled out - and the traits vary wildly from player to player depending on what they've got available. Doff's are similar in that regard. Zemok, Marion, Dlyrene, Exocomp, and a Damage Control Engineer/Warp Core Engineer are all common choices though. An energy weapons officer that reduces beam cooldowns or Agent Nerul from the Delta Pack are options too.
Lastly - If you choose to stay with the Odyssey, at least switch to the tactical version. It's got essentially the same defensive capabilities, but far higher offensive capability. The tactical versions of ships are almost universally so far superior it's mind boggling why they even release engineering/science versions.