so was kirk a numptie?

torgaddon101 · February 2015

on a day off and Tos is on tv with that episode where they find the botany bay..

kirk allows khan to read tec specs on the enterprise...

what was he thinking?

gulberat · February 2015

I think what the OP is getting at is that a military officer should not be sharing classified information with unknown people. I don't see why Kirk would have done it either.

seannewboy · February 2015

Yes, yes he was a Numptie.

starkaos · February 2015

I think it is more a matter of is Kirk giving Khan the Popular Mechanics of the 23rd Century or classified documents?

gholendhor · February 2015

This occurs in almost every show.The fault lies with Star fleet Command.
TOS - the a for mentioned Khan incident.
Enterprise - Commander Tucker gives a child a pad with the NX-01 specs.
TNG - Worf's adoptive father has all the specs and diagrams at home.
DS9 - Smiley was able to download the Defient Specs to build one in the mirror universe.
Voyager - while it is never mentioned I am betting someone was able to get a hold of the specs for the ship at one point or another.There might be a bunch of generic Intrepid class ships flying around the Delta quadrent.

hevach · February 2015

Technical specs can mean a lot of things. I can go online through official, legal channels, and get the armament and approximate air wing complement of a Nimitz-class carrier, find charts of where its weapons are mounted, find out what model nuclear reactor it uses and where it's located, I can find out what types of computers it carries and get their specs from the manufacturer, I can find out what kind of steel was used in its construction and what changes were made to the later subclasses. All of those things are technical specifications, and none of them are classified (or at least not entirely - for example the power output of the reactors is classified but not its manufacturer or location, and while few missiles are classified, the ranges often are).

They aren't particularly useful or interesting facts to me unless I'm just an avid fan of aircraft carriers or a genetically engineered superhuman with a desire to hijack the ship. At the time, Kirk didn't know if Khan was either.

jonsills · February 2015

It's also quite possible that Kirk, underestimating his guest's capabilities, simply gave him normal library access, and Khan TRIBBLE the security protocols and got access to the ship's classified specs (and there's quite a bit you can find out about even a US Navy ship without violating classification).

torgaddon101 · February 2015

1 in the jj there where 72 torps.. same same.

2 would you allow anyone to see ur ship specs without the same command lvl?

iconians · February 2015

Space Seed was the best extenuating circumstance ever, and the augments love it!

revandarklighter · February 2015

reyan01 wrote: »

TNG: Worf's adoptive father served in Starfleet.

Exactly

DS9: For all intents and purposes, Smiley WAS O'Brien. Any computer that responded to Chief O'Brien's voice would do exactly the same for Smiley, as it wouldn't be able to differentiate . Pretty much exactly the same thing as what occurred when Tom Riker comandeered the USS Defiant in the episode 'Defiant'.

Well there should be some additional security measures in place (especially when starfleet is in exactly that moment in a crises involving shapeshifters) like a special code.
But we don't know what exactly smiley did to get them.

The defiante episode is a much better example IMO.
I mean seriously Kira giving Tom Riker the command access... There is a reason why she has a personal code. If riker were supposed to access the system he had one of his own.

Also why does Kira have the command code for at this time starfleets only warship? She's not a starfleet officer, she is a bajoran.... Until just recently before that she was a known terrorist.

Voyager: Not sure on this one. If anyone was able to obtain the specs it might have been the Kazon, courtesy of Seska - she certainly exposed the Kazon to them as part of her plan to commandeer Voyager.

Well seska was a traitor and given the situation of the voyager beeing stranded she HAD to get some insight into the voyagers system to be helpful....myou know... Before she became a traitor. So in that situation it makes sense....

steamwright · February 2015

jonsills wrote: »

It's also quite possible that Kirk, underestimating his guest's capabilities, simply gave him normal library access, and Khan TRIBBLE the security protocols and got access to the ship's classified specs (and there's quite a bit you can find out about even a US Navy ship without violating classification).

^This, though in the 1960s hacking wasn't really understood as well as it is today. I suspect the closest comparison back then would be Cold War encryptions on Univac systems. Khan left Earth in the late 1990s when hacking was starting its rise, so quite possible, were we to film Space Seed today, Khan would have been shown to use 1990s hacking techniques in a highly adaptive manner, probably after studying what was publicly available on the subject in Kirk's day.

marcusdkane · February 2015

revandarklighter wrote: »

Exactly

Well there should be some additional security measures in place (especially when starfleet is in exactly that moment in a crises involving shapeshifters) like a special code.
But we don't know what exactly smiley did to get them.

The defiante episode is a much better example IMO.
I mean seriously Kira giving Tom Riker the command access... There is a reason why she has a personal code. If riker were supposed to access the system he had one of his own.

Also why does Kira have the command code for at this time starfleets only warship? She's not a starfleet officer, she is a bajoran.... Until just recently before that she was a known terrorist.

Well seska was a traitor and given the situation of the voyager beeing stranded she HAD to get some insight into the voyagers system to be helpful....myou know... Before she became a traitor. So in that situation it makes sense....

But her air of smugness before/when she did it, was a real treat to see Riker stun her. I haven't seen betrayal satisfaction like that outside of Grand Theft Auto

antonine3258 · February 2015

steamwright wrote: »

^This, though in the 1960s hacking wasn't really understood as well as it is today. I suspect the closest comparison back then would be Cold War encryptions on Univac systems. Khan left Earth in the late 1990s when hacking was starting its rise, so quite possible, were we to film Space Seed today, Khan would have been shown to use 1990s hacking techniques in a highly adaptive manner, probably after studying what was publicly available on the subject in Kirk's day.

Let's not forget that Khan had a starship so was familiar with the basic Earth-engineered systems for things like life support. Just knowing how the system was updated from the public data would have proven helpful.

revandarklighter · February 2015

marcusdkane wrote: »

But her air of smugness before/when she did it, was a real treat to see Riker stun her. I haven't seen betrayal satisfaction like that outside of Grand Theft Auto

Agreed...

steamwright wrote: »

^This, though in the 1960s hacking wasn't really understood as well as it is today. I suspect the closest comparison back then would be Cold War encryptions on Univac systems. Khan left Earth in the late 1990s when hacking was starting its rise, so quite possible, were we to film Space Seed today, Khan would have been shown to use 1990s hacking techniques in a highly adaptive manner, probably after studying what was publicly available on the subject in Kirk's day.

Actually it was retconed in wrath of khan to be arround the 2090s not the 1990s.
So from today's pow he knows about hacking and ships in general, just needed an upgrade.
And there is that while superior intellect thing that probably helps adapting fast....

shevet · February 2015

Starfleet isn't a military organization - it can function as one, and is descended from one, but it isn't one - and therefore its commanders aren't operating on constant "need to know" "operational security" military paranoia. The default philosophical position of the Federation is generally that sharing information is a good thing.

Kirk might well have approached the situation with the view that this was a guy who had been asleep for a couple of centuries, would need to re-integrate with modern society, and would therefore need to be brought up to speed on technical developments.

Besides, he wouldn't have expected Khan to be able to assimilate all that technical detail fast enough to use it against him.

It's one of those mistakes that's a lot easier to see in hindsight. (And, yes, it drives the plot of the episode, too.)

marcusdkane · February 2015

shevet wrote: »

Starfleet isn't a military organization - it can function as one, and is descended from one, but it isn't one - and therefore its commanders aren't operating on constant "need to know" "operational security" military paranoia. The default philosophical position of the Federation is generally that sharing information is a good thing.

Kirk might well have approached the situation with the view that this was a guy who had been asleep for a couple of centuries, would need to re-integrate with modern society, and would therefore need to be brought up to speed on technical developments.

Besides, he wouldn't have expected Khan to be able to assimilate all that technical detail fast enough to use it against him.

It's one of those mistakes that's a lot easier to see in hindsight. (And, yes, it drives the plot of the episode, too.)

In the TNG episode Rascals, the class computer could not show Picard the schematics/security information he wanted. Given how user-appropriate software is described in the TNG Technical Manual, as soon as he used his access code, the computer should've shifted to an appropriate LCARS display and given him what he wanted. The fact that it couldn't, suggests that "It's all just information, let's share it..." was not an ethos the Enterprise operated under... :cool:

jonsills · February 2015

marcusdkane wrote: »

In the TNG episode Rascals, the class computer could not show Picard the schematics/security information he wanted. Given how user-appropriate software is described in the TNG Technical Manual, as soon as he used his access code, the computer should've shifted to an appropriate LCARS display and given him what he wanted. The fact that it couldn't, suggests that "It's all just information, let's share it..." was not an ethos the Enterprise operated under... :cool:

The difference there, of course, is that the ship's computer could recognize that Picard was a minor (temporarily, to be sure, but still a minor), and should not be allowed access to anything that might harm a child. Khan was an adult, and the 2260s Enterprise didn't have nearly such sophisticated computer technology (partly due to the cyberphobia that seemed a hallmark of the age, justified by the M-5 incident), so he might have been allowed access to something that the 2360s Enterprise might have ruled off-limits.

marcusdkane · February 2015

jonsills wrote: »

The difference there, of course, is that the ship's computer could recognize that Picard was a minor (temporarily, to be sure, but still a minor), and should not be allowed access to anything that might harm a child. Khan was an adult, and the 2260s Enterprise didn't have nearly such sophisticated computer technology (partly due to the cyberphobia that seemed a hallmark of the age, justified by the M-5 incident), so he might have been allowed access to something that the 2360s Enterprise might have ruled off-limits.

Ahh, but it was made clear that it was only their bodies which had been reverted, their minds and faculties were as per their adult selves... There's no reason (Plot asside) why the computer shouldn't've accepted his passcodes and access as per usual...

shevet · February 2015

I imagine the Enterprise's computer has very specific instructions about "children who appear wise beyond their years" and why it shouldn't let them have access anyway *cough*Wesley Crusher*cough*

marcusdkane · February 2015

shevet wrote: »

I imagine the Enterprise's computer has very specific instructions about "children who appear wise beyond their years" and why it shouldn't let them have access anyway *cough*Wesley Crusher*cough*

Yes, but this wasn't just a child, it was the Captain of the starship... According to the TNG Technical manual, the LCARS displays were user-configurable, and could even mimic older versions of software while an officer was familiarizing/training with new updates, in addition to user-specific security restrictions. I understand that Plot required the computer to reject the order, but based on the manual, and Beverly and Deanna's statements that they were indeed mentally still their adult selves (Keiko's reactions were the most telling and heart-breaking of that fact) it should have simply reconfigured from 'class-mode' to a regular LCARS interface that he could use. The fact that it couldn't do that (despite the above points) suggests that either the Enterprise computer was locked from giving sensitive information to the classes (suggesting that all information was not simply freely available) or, Picard himself might have instigated such a restriction, but, given his thirst for knowledge, I can't see him stiffling a child's access to new knowledge... :cool:

mirrorchaos · February 2015

kirk was a prideful bar room brawler and when he got into situations that put others at risk he couldnt see a way out unless spock was there to pick him up or cover for him. The first officer is meant to help the captain, however hes not meant to be the replacement for a captain gone native half the time :P.

as for khan, khan was always charasmatic, ruthless and bright but not overly so, his arrogance costed him enough. but khan understood kirk because the two are more alike. in that sense kirk should of known better of it and restricted him, but it obviously didnt happen.

antonine3258 · February 2015

shevet wrote: »

I imagine the Enterprise's computer has very specific instructions about "children who appear wise beyond their years" and why it shouldn't let them have access anyway *cough*Wesley Crusher*cough*

The computer in the classroom may have also had specific additional restrictions in place to prevent the children of some of the most driven and talented members of Starfleet from using their free time to try and get control of the warp field, or worse.

marcusdkane · February 2015

antonine3258 wrote: »

The computer in the classroom may have also had specific additional restrictions in place to prevent the children of some of the most driven and talented members of Starfleet from using their free time to try and get control of the warp field, or worse.

Which even then, Picard should have been able to overcome via command override... The fact he couldn't, suggests to me that the computers were indeed hardwired in a 'safemode' which could not be overriden, thus showing that information was not necessarily as freely available as many may believe :cool:

moonshadowdark · February 2015

Kirk: "Your mother is a Numptie."

:eek:

sander233 · February 2015

jonsills wrote: »

It's also quite possible that Kirk, underestimating his guest's capabilities, simply gave him normal library access, and Khan TRIBBLE the security protocols and got access to the ship's classified specs (and there's quite a bit you can find out about even a US Navy ship without violating classification).

Even gaining access to classified tech specs doesn't necessarily mean you can replicate the technology or make it work for you. :cool:

starswordc · February 2015

reyan01 wrote: »

Well then, yeah - it was a pretty dumb thing to do.

Sadly, this falls into one of those 'stupid, but necessary to the story' catergories. The story required Khan to take over the ship. Having him read the tech manuals was the quickest way to work that into the story.

Unfortunately, a by-product of this was that it also made Kirk look like a bit of a dumbass.

Look, if your plot requires your characters to do something uncharacteristically dumb for no good reason, ur doin it rong.

adverbero · February 2015

I never got the impression that Kirk was overly security conscious or concerned with a high degree of precaution. Quite the opposite it would seem

I mean we are talking about the same character who got people killed by failing to raise shields when he was advised to do so in Wrath of Khan

jonsills · February 2015

crashdragon wrote: »

And the actor of the character also thought up, wrote, directed and stared in Star Trek 5 even when the entire Trek population of this dimension said hell no.....

JJ ya off the hook. :cool:

It could have been worse. His original deal called for him to direct two films.

iconians · February 2015

crashdragon wrote: »

And the actor of the character also thought up, wrote, directed and stared in Star Trek 5 even when the entire Trek population of this dimension said hell no.....

JJ ya off the hook. :cool:

But without Star Trek 5, we would never have this glorious gem.

And yes, Abrams Derangement Syndrome aside, the last two films pale in comparison to that kind of TRIBBLE we considered "classic" Star Trek.

so was kirk a numptie?

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