You would make the player complete the mission, and need him to understand it all. You want a certain damage output out of him I guess.
I've got one character which does a very low amount of damage. 3-4k. Partially because I don't bother spending recourses on that one, and partially due to the massive amount of heals and crowd control I have on that one. Very good addition to any team so far, whether premade or pugged.
He wouldn't pass your test. He couldn't.
This idea is bad, because it has so many limits.
Let the PUGs pug all they want. I'll make sure to keep educating my fleet and playing with my fleet.
As always, people seem to think that requiring them to think about others before joining advanced and elite queues is all about forcing them to give up their play-style and focus solely on DPS.
So my quick answer is that my main is a tanky engineer running phaser dhcs. He parses at 33K. My main alt is in a drain boat and gets 18K (he turns off shields though, so he gets some credit for that).
You can have whatever play-style you want and still get over 10K. If everyone in advanced got over 8K, even, those missions would be easy. That's all this conversation is about, not getting everyone over 50K or whatever.
"partially due to the massive amount of heals and crowd control I have on that one. Very good addition to any team so far, whether premade or pugged. "
I get healed sometimes in pugs and usually it's because the other person was quicker to the draw than I was and it doesn't matter since I wasn't about to die anyway. I usually say thanks anyway because I appreciate the thought.
On the other hand, I wouldn't say that those people are necessary to the team or better to have on board than someone who can hold their own.
Also too, I'm pretty sure you can have a lot of heals and get over 10K dps, even with mk 12 gear.
This idea is exceedingly stupid. NPC ships typically average less than 2k DPS and have terrible AI. They would be shooting things that they can't kill the entire mission, and leave the player to carry it. And you say it should be exactly like an advanced STF with enemies just a little weaker? The players doing this would need 20k+ DPS to do it.
How about you do what most of everyone else suggested and play with people you know. (Ex.: fleet, friends, DPS channels, etc.)
Support 90 degree arc limitation on BFaW! Save our ships from looking like flying disco balls of dumb!
This idea is exceedingly stupid. NPC ships typically average less than 2k DPS and have terrible AI. They would be shooting things that they can't kill the entire mission, and leave the player to carry it. And you say it should be exactly like an advanced STF with enemies just a little weaker? The players doing this would need 20k+ DPS to do it.
How about you do what most of everyone else suggested and play with people you know. (Ex.: fleet, friends, DPS channels, etc.)
For one, that's false. I get over 2k from Photonic Fleet, and well above that if I use fleet support.
For two, you're assuming some level of NPC that hasn't even been discussed.
For three, as stated, "a proposal to teach people to do the STFs" does not equal "I keep failing pugs wtf n00bz!"
Meh. In a broader sense, I suppose "elitism" applies to a suggestion to address an issue that doesn't even affect me, but I keep seeing brought up.
As always, people seem to think that requiring them to think about others before joining advanced and elite queues is all about forcing them to give up their play-style and focus solely on DPS.
So my quick answer is that my main is a tanky engineer running phaser dhcs. He parses at 33K. My main alt is in a drain boat and gets 18K (he turns off shields though, so he gets some credit for that).
You can have whatever play-style you want and still get over 10K. If everyone in advanced got over 8K, even, those missions would be easy. That's all this conversation is about, not getting everyone over 50K or whatever.
I mentioned it in one of the threads as a light joke, but it definitely appears to be the case as it does tend to happen over and over again. It's like folks seriously do have some sort of butthurt PTSD going on from where some douche was an TRIBBLE to them...so anything, anything, that even comes within a country mile of that moment in their life; they just stop reading and go off full tilt about something that nobody was saying.
You're trying to point that out calmly, but I don't think it's going to matter. Those folks are just seeing red, doesn't matter if somebody's talking about 6k DPS...they might as well be talking about 120k DPS...cause those folks aren't reading anything...they're just raging away...meh.
I would think a rather less harsh approach would be to implement lower level versions of the instances in question.
Starting from level 10 easy mode, with less complicated steps, versions of the instances could be introduced. While this doesn't solve the inherent issue of undergeared players tackling content they aren't prepared for it would let them see how the instance would likely work.
It could perhaps also help newer players operate more as a team, something that is almost discouraged in gorn/starbase 24 due to how the reward system in those instances operates. While it is wrong not to reward players who put time/money into their ships it is equally unproductive to show newer players that lone gun style is the way to go.
This is a wonderful idea, unfortunately i don't think Cryptic would spend the resources to implement it. The queues would be more populated if players had a reasonable expectation that the time they are investing into a pug wouldn't end in 10 marks and a cool down.
To those that say "just team up with friends/fleet/channel", it's a lot faster to simply pug. If I only have a limited time to play i don't want to waste ten minutes of it rounding up folks. The dps channel is great, but even there running anything besides bug hunt, infected, cure and crystalline can take a while.
Whenever I read these kind of threads (dps and how to save queues) there's always the few that say "I heal people", yet I have not met these great Samaritans in game. I really don't see a need for healers in this game, crowd control - yes - healers what for? I only die when I aggro the whole map because I am pullin 20k+ and everyone else is doing 4k.
With today's power creep there's no excuse to only pull 4k - my most basic alt on mk xiii green beams is pulling just over 10-11k (sci borg liberated Klingon on breen carrier - with polarons).
With today's power creep there's no excuse to only pull 4k - my most basic alt on mk xiii green beams is pulling just over 10-11k (sci borg liberated Klingon on breen carrier - with polarons).
Power creep implies that the players have already completed reputations, have acquired a lot of end-game doffs and equipment, and are quite a ways into specializations. The whole point of this is locking new players out of content, and as such the majority of them won't have access to any of this. They specifically won't have access to any reputation gear, they've likely only just hit level 50 so no specialization points, and many of them probably aren't even aware of what's considered "good" in terms of equipment. A tutorial mission isn't going to teach them that anyway.
There are quite a few players I play with who only just reach 5k dps because they don't care to have the be-all end-all gear that min-maxers absolutely require. Doesn't mean we can't finish ISA, although most of them limit themselves to private queues. Many of them prefer to play support roles, as I've said repeatedly throughout this thread, which would seriously hinder their ability to complete the suggested mandatory tutorial mission.
The universe has a wonderful sense of humor. The trick is learning how to take a joke.
I say gate the elite queues all you want but the advanced ones were supposed to be like the original elites before Delta hit. The new elite modes were supposed to be the ones where the game got upped even further. This changing of advanced modes to a more elite style play is for the birds when you already have elite implemented.
Power creep implies that the players have already completed reputations, have acquired a lot of end-game doffs and equipment, and are quite a ways into specializations. The whole point of this is locking new players out of content, and as such the majority of them won't have access to any of this. They specifically won't have access to any reputation gear, they've likely only just hit level 50 so no specialization points, and many of them probably aren't even aware of what's considered "good" in terms of equipment. A tutorial mission isn't going to teach them that anyway.
Undine space battle zone, Dyson ground, Delta patrols, Nukara ground, Defera ground, Romulan ground- these are all available to anyone. You can also get pretty good gear/rep marks out of them. The reputation gear thing makes no sense, unless one has to have either Borg or Delta rep gear right now, and refuses to wait for it.
If it's not locking someone out of private queues, this would only hurt someone who would normally cause a random group of average players a fail.
If you don't like how others play then find a fleet and do private queues where you can all circle jerk your e-peens.
Funny how other posters have the audacity to make topics and claim, literally, 'Do 10K DPS or GTFO of my game noob' aka fly an escort as a tac and/or upgrade your weapons and fly the ship as I dictate despite the fact that none of the above has a causal relationship with mission success & team dynamics.
There is no excuse for ships doing under 10k DPS anymore. The only conclusion is that players doing under that are Trolls / RPers that might as well be trolls... or just not intelligent enough to realize the game design is DPS DPS DPS....
I've even been told, in game, "don't play your alts, noob," despite that my sci alt in a cruiser with 7K DPS on ISA with mediocre gear and knowledge on how to work as a team and how to achieve mission objectives, despite attempting to politely communicate re: mission objectives and team dynamics, and despite the team itself making it impossible for any one person to succeed unless they themselves could carry it through and also account for the mistakes (popping gens on opposite end just because).
Communication in STFs is either pointless, and I doubt it's due to language barriers every single time, and politely trying to communicate more often results in insults and other forms of harassment or negativity resulting swiftly in muting and adding to the private 'do not team/invite' list.
It must be something about the nature of a large share of the audience this game, or perhaps many MMO games, attract that make them act as such a breeding ground for hostility and other forms of negativity as though everything's about some zero-sum gain. Thankfully there's still many exceptions to this.
As to what the OP suggests, I think it's a step in the right direction to improve the game for everyone even if I doubt it would work.
One idea I've thought of along these very lines is to add much more single-player story content that's required, like the OPs accolate key to STF idea, which involves much more complicated scenarios that mirror the types of situations necessary for success in STF and to be an effective teammate. This could help ensure players learn to pay attention to mission objectives instead of fly-shoot-kill-win.
True, NPCs are nearly worthless and predictable for teaching team work, which is why some form of 2 or 3 player team vanilla-PVP STF that also provides accolates necessary for advanced STF access could help ensure players need to learn to work within a team environment, ie. coordinate, communicate, send heals/debuffs/CC/mark targets/focus fire/tank/flank, etc.
Even something as basic as making it necessary to reply to an NPC using team chat using either "Yes/No" response that ties to some ongoing mission objective could help teach the value of team communication even if it's for something simple as 'converge at top lane of UIA.'
Something clearly needs to be done, even if that something may not necessarily work with what the OP suggested, but it is a definite step in the right direction.
The 11k character doesn't have rep gear, too expensive in terms of dil. It has a leech because I bought the ship, a fleet spire warp core and I think a fleet shield? Not sure. No rep gear or epic gear. No spaceship traits either because I don't play him often. Matter of fact he just recently reached level 4 in the nukara rep.
The power creep comes from all the easy to get items that are available. There is the problem though that this game is atrocious in helping new players understand the concepts of the game.
If set up properly a single player mission that show the player his dps, heal per second, threat generation and a total score would help. It would at least point out to said player that he should seek some help somewhere if he can't get past the mission. Infected would be a good candidate.
I'll save the preface, since it's been discussed/argued over/trolled enough since DR.
Gating the Advanced and/or Elite queues could be (theoretically) implemented as follows:
A single player (skippable) mission, at the end of a story arc, in each player's journal. Let's, for example, take Infected Space Advanced.
At the end of the Borg story arc, there appears a few missions- one being "Infected Space Simulator." This mission is single player only. You can not get help from someone else to complete this mission. Period. This mission is repeatable.
The mission begins the same as any Infected Space Advanced begins. Only, instead of other players, you are teamed with 4 NPCs. Two escort types, and either one cruiser/battlecruiser and one science vessel, or two cruisers/battlecruisers.
It is, effectively, Infected Space Advanced, albeit one with 75%(?) hitpoints for critters. There is a timer for this mission.
If objectives are not met, a popup stating "You are not yet ready for this engagement" is displayed.
If successful, a score will appear, and you will receive an accolade. This accolade will unlock the Advanced version of Infected Space for this character. The accolade will take into consideration 1. time, 2. # of deaths, and 3. DPS. If one completes this by buffing the NPCs, it helps with time (and the overall DPS). If one does high DPS, it helps with time. If one dies repeatedly, it detracts from time. One can heal the NPCs, as they can be destroyed.
I think this would work with any and all queues. It can't be "gamed," unless someone plays your account for you. And, if there is an "Elite" version of the STF, an additional accolade can be acquired based on score, as well. One could gain all accolades from a single mission based upon score, thus unlocking Advanced and Elite, if applicable.
If one does not acquire these accolades, one can not join Advanced or Elite queues. These missions can be completed once for all requirements, thus not being a massive hassle to acquire, for those who already know how to do this content.
No one complains about not being able to learn the STFs, no one complains about people not knowing what they're doing (in a general sense), and no one has to do these if they choose not to do so. They aren't 100% of the strength of the actual STFs, so there would be some learning- but they would be harder than Normal, and closer to what the actual Advanced or Elite STFs would be like.
TL;DR a repeatable, skippable mission to see if one can unlock Advanced difficulty in queues.
This whole post stinks of a DPS centric player. Even IF they could come up with a good AI for it (Nope, but lets say the devs can make an awesome AI), it still comes down to pure DPS if it's on a timer. Not a good suggestion.
If set up properly a single player mission that show the player his dps, heal per second, threat generation and a total score would help. It would at least point out to said player that he should seek some help somewhere if he can't get past the mission. Infected would be a good candidate.
Science power drains? Shield drains? This is what's wrong with the game. It's all DPS/Pull all the threat I can/heal to keep alive. All the rest is classified by many players as garbage. Same players get challenged to PvP versus a t5-U science ship and get turned to dust quickly.
This whole post stinks of a DPS centric player. Even IF they could come up with a good AI for it (Nope, but lets say the devs can make an awesome AI), it still comes down to pure DPS if it's on a timer. Not a good suggestion.
Undine space battle zone, Dyson ground, Delta patrols, Nukara ground, Defera ground, Romulan ground- these are all available to anyone. You can also get pretty good gear/rep marks out of them. The reputation gear thing makes no sense, unless one has to have either Borg or Delta rep gear right now, and refuses to wait for it.
If it's not locking someone out of private queues, this would only hurt someone who would normally cause a random group of average players a fail.
Fair enough, some reputations can be completed alone (technically), but it doesn't entirely nullify my point. A tutorial mission should not be trying to teach what the best equipment, skills, and traits are. The whole point of customization is letting a player find something that works for them, not having it all dictated to them. Power creep really only occurs under specific combinations of powers.
He said because of power creep doing less than 10k dps is inexcusable. I provided a specific counter point: I know players who only do 5k but we can still clear ISA. These players tend to play support roles, but they know what they're doing.
A tutorial mission with dialogue boxes is going to be skipped over by a lot of players so they aren't likely to actually learn anything because they want to get straight to the action (note: I'm not saying a majority or assuming anything about specific numbers or proportions). Maybe after repeated fails they would finally take the time to read the mission dialogues, but it's far more likely they'll come complaining to the forums or they'll give up. The former doesn't really solve anything and the latter should not be the desirable outcome. Players giving up means fewer players actually playing the content, which is already troublesome.
I'm not necessarily opposed to some form of gating the content, but I don't think a tutorial mission would work due to the points I've already made. It would make more sense to force players to play through Normal first until they reach tier 1 or tier 2 of the corresponding reputation. Private queues would be an exception of course, and players who have sponsorship from an alt would be exempt as well because they've already proven they at least have a character at tier 5. I will admit, however, that even this has shortcomings. It's easy to get carried through STFs, especially Normal, so a player could do almost nothing and still end up at the required tier to progress to Advanced.
The universe has a wonderful sense of humor. The trick is learning how to take a joke.
Let's take isa and substitute four human players with four ai. The ai is programmed to destroy the patrol, go left, one ai ship will throw a single grav well or a tractor beam repulsor to keep the nanite spheres away. Once the left side is done the ai quickly moves right and repeats.
On the back of this basic setup you can then add wrinkles, such as the player has to do x dps so the instance doesn't fail, he can keep the ai ships alive while rebuffing the borg and buffing the ai, he can help by doing more crowd control. From the player's actions a final score is given from his dps, heals, etc. it's not about dps, it's about learning to play the game, and having some way to get feedback on how well you are doing.
Yes there is, but your suggestion basically leaves non DPS centric science builds out cold. In the end, you would have to solo said STF because the AI doesn't help much in this game.
Let's take isa and substitute four human players with four ai. The ai is programmed to destroy the patrol, go left, one ai ship will throw a single grav well or a tractor beam repulsor to keep the nanite spheres away. Once the left side is done the ai quickly moves right and repeats.
On the back of this basic setup you can then add wrinkles, such as the player has to do x dps so the instance doesn't fail, he can keep the ai ships alive while rebuffing the borg and buffing the ai, he can help by doing more crowd control. From the player's actions a final score is given from his dps, heals, etc. it's not about dps, it's about learning to play the game, and having some way to get feedback on how well you are doing.
Have you seen anything to indicate Cryptic can set up AI ships to follow a specific path without interruption (escorts don't count, they rarely if ever participate in combat and only fly in a single flight path), use a specific power at a specific time, or in this case under a specific set of conditions, i.e. when the Nanite probes have reached a specific location, and target specific enemies so that they aren't firing at a perpetually invulnerable target? It's not going to happen.
The universe has a wonderful sense of humor. The trick is learning how to take a joke.
He said because of power creep doing less than 10k dps is inexcusable. I provided a specific counter point: I know players who only do 5k but we can still clear ISA. These players tend to play support roles, but they know what they're doing.
I can verify this to be true, and it took place in a pug that were parsed, and it wasn't a chance event but repeatable. Yes it did take longer to finish it, but it was fun, a good challenge, and totally surprising for a pug every time.
Key words of course being "they know what they're doing."
I cannot agree with the OP's suggestion. Why? A fleetmate of mine set aside his 30k DPS controtrix and ran a build based solely on controlling. In cure advanced, for example, he held the BOPs, raptors and neggies so well, nothing got within range of the kang, and the other 4 teammates were able to romp from right to left as a group. His final DPS was just over 3k. Was he effective at 3k DPS, certainly. Why? Because the team adapted and used the low DPS control build ship to an advantage.
If that same, totally effective build within the makeup of the team, were to play a solo mission with a time limit, it might fail.
Not everyone plays to DPS.
The current statement I have seen often is that 10k DPS is what you need to do advanced queue STFs. It is a bunch of baloney. I joined a random group and completed Infected Space Advanced with a team average of 6.29k DPS. You need to kill baddies, yes, which means you need some amount of DPS within the TEAM to complete STFs in a timely manner, but not everyone in the TEAM needs to measure up with X DPS to contribute in an effective way. Just because it is possible for anyone to get to 10k DPS with the right setup or even a bad setup does not mean everyone is going to focus on DPS.
Another thing to consider, I have 1 toon that ran argala in 4 minutes with X DPS. Another toon does argala in 5 minutes 30 seconds, but has X+(X/2) DPS. Which is more effective? The one that completes the mission faster or the one with the higher DPS? IF there was a 5 minute time limit, the higher DPS ship is considered worse than the lower DPS ship?
If you have cryptic create a space mission with 4 NPCs, how do they have the NPC's adapt to the play style and abilities that the solo player brings to the mission?
Fair enough, some reputations can be completed alone (technically), but it doesn't entirely nullify my point. A tutorial mission should not be trying to teach what the best equipment, skills, and traits are. The whole point of customization is letting a player find something that works for them, not having it all dictated to them. Power creep really only occurs under specific combinations of powers.
Oh, I definitely wouldn't want that. Nor would my odd builds that I love messing with. And not "technically." I usually do ground stuff to get most of my rep marks. Especially Romulan ones. Perfectly viable. Space battle zone is way quicker than grinding out UIE over and over, especially on weekends- if the lag doesn't stop you.
He said because of power creep doing less than 10k dps is inexcusable. I provided a specific counter point: I know players who only do 5k but we can still clear ISA. These players tend to play support roles, but they know what they're doing.
While I agree that it's not hard to get 10k out of 90% of builds (pirate distress call or photonic fleet get around 2k dps each alone), I've noticed the average is 7-12k. An average team would have no problems, as long as there wasn't someone who had no idea where to go or what to do (or just shot the minimum amount of times so they got rewards).
A tutorial mission with dialogue boxes is going to be skipped over by a lot of players so they aren't likely to actually learn anything because they want to get straight to the action (note: I'm not saying a majority or assuming anything about specific numbers or proportions). Maybe after repeated fails they would finally take the time to read the mission dialogues, but it's far more likely they'll come complaining to the forums or they'll give up. The former doesn't really solve anything and the latter should not be the desirable outcome. Players giving up means fewer players actually playing the content, which is already troublesome.
I agree. Is it worse that someone is frustrated, or that they frustrate 4 other people, though?
I'm not necessarily opposed to some form of gating the content, but I don't think a tutorial mission would work due to the points I've already made. It would make more sense to force players to play through Normal first until they reach tier 1 or tier 2 of the corresponding reputation. Private queues would be an exception of course, and players who have sponsorship from an alt would be exempt as well because they've already proven they at least have a character at tier 5.
Something, right? Admittedly flawed as it is, it's a suggestion. Empty queues may not affect me, personally, but how many are they negatively affecting? Judging by the forums, it's a sign of the Armageddon. :P
I cannot agree with the OP's suggestion. Why? A fleetmate of mine set aside his 30k DPS controtrix and ran a build based solely on controlling. In cure advanced, for example, he held the BOPs, raptors and neggies so well, nothing got within range of the kang, and the other 4 teammates were able to romp from right to left as a group. His final DPS was just over 3k. Was he effective at 3k DPS, certainly. Why? Because the team adapted and used the low DPS control build ship to an advantage.
If that same, totally effective build within the makeup of the team, were to play a solo mission with a time limit, it might fail.
Not everyone plays to DPS.
The current statement I have seen often is that 10k DPS is what you need to do advanced queue STFs. It is a bunch of baloney. I joined a random group and completed Infected Space Advanced with a team average of 6.29k DPS. You need to kill baddies, yes, which means you need some amount of DPS within the TEAM to complete STFs in a timely manner, but not everyone in the TEAM needs to measure up with X DPS to contribute in an effective way. Just because it is possible for anyone to get to 10k DPS with the right setup or even a bad setup does not mean everyone is going to focus on DPS.
Another thing to consider, I have 1 toon that ran argala in 4 minutes with X DPS. Another toon does argala in 5 minutes 30 seconds, but has X+(X/2) DPS. Which is more effective? The one that completes the mission faster or the one with the higher DPS? IF there was a 5 minute time limit, the higher DPS ship is considered worse than the lower DPS ship?
If you have cryptic create a space mission with 4 NPCs, how do they have the NPC's adapt to the play style and abilities that the solo player brings to the mission?
If you read the OP, it stated that the DPS of the NPCs would be counted, so healing and crowd control would be a factor. The issue with the timers is- well, they're in the STFs themselves. I'm sure this or that could be changed, but, it seems like when people see "DPS," it's automatically assumed it's all about nothing but DPS, and therefore is ruining the game.
Just because something says "DPS," it doesn't automatically make it super evil and wrong. It's one of the few measurements the game has.
Oh, I definitely wouldn't want that. Nor would my odd builds that I love messing with. And not "technically." I usually do ground stuff to get most of my rep marks. Especially Romulan ones. Perfectly viable. Space battle zone is way quicker than grinding out UIE over and over, especially on weekends- if the lag doesn't stop you.
My "technically" was pointed mostly at the Undine Space Combat Zone. In order to get rep gear, you need Isomorphic Injectors. You can't reliably get those without participating in the Planet Killer portion of the zone or the following Voth Invasion. Neither of those can be completed alone. You aren't required to be in a team but I doubt a new player could defeat even one Planet Killer let alone three.
The universe has a wonderful sense of humor. The trick is learning how to take a joke.
My "technically" was pointed mostly at the Undine Space Combat Zone. In order to get rep gear, you need Isomorphic Injectors. You can't reliably get those without participating in the Planet Killer portion of the zone or the following Voth Invasion. Neither of those can be completed alone. You aren't required to be in a team but I doubt a new player could defeat even one Planet Killer let alone three.
Ive almost never teamed up doing it, and I've always got IMEs. Even on debuffing sci alts. Just follow the horde and start shooting!
Comments
There's a lot of "I didn't read this, so I'm going to assume it's something about DPS and [insert elitism comment here]."
"Forever"? I don't even think that puggers are that bad.
You would make the player complete the mission, and need him to understand it all. You want a certain damage output out of him I guess.
I've got one character which does a very low amount of damage. 3-4k. Partially because I don't bother spending recourses on that one, and partially due to the massive amount of heals and crowd control I have on that one. Very good addition to any team so far, whether premade or pugged.
He wouldn't pass your test. He couldn't.
This idea is bad, because it has so many limits.
Let the PUGs pug all they want. I'll make sure to keep educating my fleet and playing with my fleet.
Join the Deltas today!
So my quick answer is that my main is a tanky engineer running phaser dhcs. He parses at 33K. My main alt is in a drain boat and gets 18K (he turns off shields though, so he gets some credit for that).
You can have whatever play-style you want and still get over 10K. If everyone in advanced got over 8K, even, those missions would be easy. That's all this conversation is about, not getting everyone over 50K or whatever.
I get healed sometimes in pugs and usually it's because the other person was quicker to the draw than I was and it doesn't matter since I wasn't about to die anyway. I usually say thanks anyway because I appreciate the thought.
On the other hand, I wouldn't say that those people are necessary to the team or better to have on board than someone who can hold their own.
Also too, I'm pretty sure you can have a lot of heals and get over 10K dps, even with mk 12 gear.
How about you do what most of everyone else suggested and play with people you know. (Ex.: fleet, friends, DPS channels, etc.)
Support 90 degree arc limitation on BFaW! Save our ships from looking like flying disco balls of dumb!
For one, that's false. I get over 2k from Photonic Fleet, and well above that if I use fleet support.
For two, you're assuming some level of NPC that hasn't even been discussed.
For three, as stated, "a proposal to teach people to do the STFs" does not equal "I keep failing pugs wtf n00bz!"
Meh. In a broader sense, I suppose "elitism" applies to a suggestion to address an issue that doesn't even affect me, but I keep seeing brought up.
I mentioned it in one of the threads as a light joke, but it definitely appears to be the case as it does tend to happen over and over again. It's like folks seriously do have some sort of butthurt PTSD going on from where some douche was an TRIBBLE to them...so anything, anything, that even comes within a country mile of that moment in their life; they just stop reading and go off full tilt about something that nobody was saying.
You're trying to point that out calmly, but I don't think it's going to matter. Those folks are just seeing red, doesn't matter if somebody's talking about 6k DPS...they might as well be talking about 120k DPS...cause those folks aren't reading anything...they're just raging away...meh.
Starting from level 10 easy mode, with less complicated steps, versions of the instances could be introduced. While this doesn't solve the inherent issue of undergeared players tackling content they aren't prepared for it would let them see how the instance would likely work.
It could perhaps also help newer players operate more as a team, something that is almost discouraged in gorn/starbase 24 due to how the reward system in those instances operates. While it is wrong not to reward players who put time/money into their ships it is equally unproductive to show newer players that lone gun style is the way to go.
Just my two cents.
To those that say "just team up with friends/fleet/channel", it's a lot faster to simply pug. If I only have a limited time to play i don't want to waste ten minutes of it rounding up folks. The dps channel is great, but even there running anything besides bug hunt, infected, cure and crystalline can take a while.
Whenever I read these kind of threads (dps and how to save queues) there's always the few that say "I heal people", yet I have not met these great Samaritans in game. I really don't see a need for healers in this game, crowd control - yes - healers what for? I only die when I aggro the whole map because I am pullin 20k+ and everyone else is doing 4k.
With today's power creep there's no excuse to only pull 4k - my most basic alt on mk xiii green beams is pulling just over 10-11k (sci borg liberated Klingon on breen carrier - with polarons).
Power creep implies that the players have already completed reputations, have acquired a lot of end-game doffs and equipment, and are quite a ways into specializations. The whole point of this is locking new players out of content, and as such the majority of them won't have access to any of this. They specifically won't have access to any reputation gear, they've likely only just hit level 50 so no specialization points, and many of them probably aren't even aware of what's considered "good" in terms of equipment. A tutorial mission isn't going to teach them that anyway.
There are quite a few players I play with who only just reach 5k dps because they don't care to have the be-all end-all gear that min-maxers absolutely require. Doesn't mean we can't finish ISA, although most of them limit themselves to private queues. Many of them prefer to play support roles, as I've said repeatedly throughout this thread, which would seriously hinder their ability to complete the suggested mandatory tutorial mission.
The universe has a wonderful sense of humor. The trick is learning how to take a joke.
Undine space battle zone, Dyson ground, Delta patrols, Nukara ground, Defera ground, Romulan ground- these are all available to anyone. You can also get pretty good gear/rep marks out of them. The reputation gear thing makes no sense, unless one has to have either Borg or Delta rep gear right now, and refuses to wait for it.
If it's not locking someone out of private queues, this would only hurt someone who would normally cause a random group of average players a fail.
Funny how other posters have the audacity to make topics and claim, literally, 'Do 10K DPS or GTFO of my game noob' aka fly an escort as a tac and/or upgrade your weapons and fly the ship as I dictate despite the fact that none of the above has a causal relationship with mission success & team dynamics.
Edit to add: Proof:
I've even been told, in game, "don't play your alts, noob," despite that my sci alt in a cruiser with 7K DPS on ISA with mediocre gear and knowledge on how to work as a team and how to achieve mission objectives, despite attempting to politely communicate re: mission objectives and team dynamics, and despite the team itself making it impossible for any one person to succeed unless they themselves could carry it through and also account for the mistakes (popping gens on opposite end just because).
Communication in STFs is either pointless, and I doubt it's due to language barriers every single time, and politely trying to communicate more often results in insults and other forms of harassment or negativity resulting swiftly in muting and adding to the private 'do not team/invite' list.
It must be something about the nature of a large share of the audience this game, or perhaps many MMO games, attract that make them act as such a breeding ground for hostility and other forms of negativity as though everything's about some zero-sum gain. Thankfully there's still many exceptions to this.
As to what the OP suggests, I think it's a step in the right direction to improve the game for everyone even if I doubt it would work.
One idea I've thought of along these very lines is to add much more single-player story content that's required, like the OPs accolate key to STF idea, which involves much more complicated scenarios that mirror the types of situations necessary for success in STF and to be an effective teammate. This could help ensure players learn to pay attention to mission objectives instead of fly-shoot-kill-win.
True, NPCs are nearly worthless and predictable for teaching team work, which is why some form of 2 or 3 player team vanilla-PVP STF that also provides accolates necessary for advanced STF access could help ensure players need to learn to work within a team environment, ie. coordinate, communicate, send heals/debuffs/CC/mark targets/focus fire/tank/flank, etc.
Even something as basic as making it necessary to reply to an NPC using team chat using either "Yes/No" response that ties to some ongoing mission objective could help teach the value of team communication even if it's for something simple as 'converge at top lane of UIA.'
Something clearly needs to be done, even if that something may not necessarily work with what the OP suggested, but it is a definite step in the right direction.
The power creep comes from all the easy to get items that are available. There is the problem though that this game is atrocious in helping new players understand the concepts of the game.
If set up properly a single player mission that show the player his dps, heal per second, threat generation and a total score would help. It would at least point out to said player that he should seek some help somewhere if he can't get past the mission. Infected would be a good candidate.
This whole post stinks of a DPS centric player. Even IF they could come up with a good AI for it (Nope, but lets say the devs can make an awesome AI), it still comes down to pure DPS if it's on a timer. Not a good suggestion.
Science power drains? Shield drains? This is what's wrong with the game. It's all DPS/Pull all the threat I can/heal to keep alive. All the rest is classified by many players as garbage. Same players get challenged to PvP versus a t5-U science ship and get turned to dust quickly.
There are no timers in STFs now?
Fair enough, some reputations can be completed alone (technically), but it doesn't entirely nullify my point. A tutorial mission should not be trying to teach what the best equipment, skills, and traits are. The whole point of customization is letting a player find something that works for them, not having it all dictated to them. Power creep really only occurs under specific combinations of powers.
He said because of power creep doing less than 10k dps is inexcusable. I provided a specific counter point: I know players who only do 5k but we can still clear ISA. These players tend to play support roles, but they know what they're doing.
A tutorial mission with dialogue boxes is going to be skipped over by a lot of players so they aren't likely to actually learn anything because they want to get straight to the action (note: I'm not saying a majority or assuming anything about specific numbers or proportions). Maybe after repeated fails they would finally take the time to read the mission dialogues, but it's far more likely they'll come complaining to the forums or they'll give up. The former doesn't really solve anything and the latter should not be the desirable outcome. Players giving up means fewer players actually playing the content, which is already troublesome.
I'm not necessarily opposed to some form of gating the content, but I don't think a tutorial mission would work due to the points I've already made. It would make more sense to force players to play through Normal first until they reach tier 1 or tier 2 of the corresponding reputation. Private queues would be an exception of course, and players who have sponsorship from an alt would be exempt as well because they've already proven they at least have a character at tier 5. I will admit, however, that even this has shortcomings. It's easy to get carried through STFs, especially Normal, so a player could do almost nothing and still end up at the required tier to progress to Advanced.
The universe has a wonderful sense of humor. The trick is learning how to take a joke.
On the back of this basic setup you can then add wrinkles, such as the player has to do x dps so the instance doesn't fail, he can keep the ai ships alive while rebuffing the borg and buffing the ai, he can help by doing more crowd control. From the player's actions a final score is given from his dps, heals, etc. it's not about dps, it's about learning to play the game, and having some way to get feedback on how well you are doing.
Yes there is, but your suggestion basically leaves non DPS centric science builds out cold. In the end, you would have to solo said STF because the AI doesn't help much in this game.
Have you seen anything to indicate Cryptic can set up AI ships to follow a specific path without interruption (escorts don't count, they rarely if ever participate in combat and only fly in a single flight path), use a specific power at a specific time, or in this case under a specific set of conditions, i.e. when the Nanite probes have reached a specific location, and target specific enemies so that they aren't firing at a perpetually invulnerable target? It's not going to happen.
The universe has a wonderful sense of humor. The trick is learning how to take a joke.
I can verify this to be true, and it took place in a pug that were parsed, and it wasn't a chance event but repeatable. Yes it did take longer to finish it, but it was fun, a good challenge, and totally surprising for a pug every time.
Key words of course being "they know what they're doing."
If that same, totally effective build within the makeup of the team, were to play a solo mission with a time limit, it might fail.
Not everyone plays to DPS.
The current statement I have seen often is that 10k DPS is what you need to do advanced queue STFs. It is a bunch of baloney. I joined a random group and completed Infected Space Advanced with a team average of 6.29k DPS. You need to kill baddies, yes, which means you need some amount of DPS within the TEAM to complete STFs in a timely manner, but not everyone in the TEAM needs to measure up with X DPS to contribute in an effective way. Just because it is possible for anyone to get to 10k DPS with the right setup or even a bad setup does not mean everyone is going to focus on DPS.
Another thing to consider, I have 1 toon that ran argala in 4 minutes with X DPS. Another toon does argala in 5 minutes 30 seconds, but has X+(X/2) DPS. Which is more effective? The one that completes the mission faster or the one with the higher DPS? IF there was a 5 minute time limit, the higher DPS ship is considered worse than the lower DPS ship?
If you have cryptic create a space mission with 4 NPCs, how do they have the NPC's adapt to the play style and abilities that the solo player brings to the mission?
Oh, I definitely wouldn't want that. Nor would my odd builds that I love messing with. And not "technically." I usually do ground stuff to get most of my rep marks. Especially Romulan ones. Perfectly viable. Space battle zone is way quicker than grinding out UIE over and over, especially on weekends- if the lag doesn't stop you.
While I agree that it's not hard to get 10k out of 90% of builds (pirate distress call or photonic fleet get around 2k dps each alone), I've noticed the average is 7-12k. An average team would have no problems, as long as there wasn't someone who had no idea where to go or what to do (or just shot the minimum amount of times so they got rewards).
I agree. Is it worse that someone is frustrated, or that they frustrate 4 other people, though?
Something, right? Admittedly flawed as it is, it's a suggestion. Empty queues may not affect me, personally, but how many are they negatively affecting? Judging by the forums, it's a sign of the Armageddon. :P
If you read the OP, it stated that the DPS of the NPCs would be counted, so healing and crowd control would be a factor. The issue with the timers is- well, they're in the STFs themselves. I'm sure this or that could be changed, but, it seems like when people see "DPS," it's automatically assumed it's all about nothing but DPS, and therefore is ruining the game.
Just because something says "DPS," it doesn't automatically make it super evil and wrong. It's one of the few measurements the game has.
My "technically" was pointed mostly at the Undine Space Combat Zone. In order to get rep gear, you need Isomorphic Injectors. You can't reliably get those without participating in the Planet Killer portion of the zone or the following Voth Invasion. Neither of those can be completed alone. You aren't required to be in a team but I doubt a new player could defeat even one Planet Killer let alone three.
The universe has a wonderful sense of humor. The trick is learning how to take a joke.
Ive almost never teamed up doing it, and I've always got IMEs. Even on debuffing sci alts. Just follow the horde and start shooting!