The Hur'q conquered the Klingons and were driven off thousands of years ago (they were the ones that the Klingons got their warp tech from). They were said to be extinct, but......are they? (DUN DUN DUNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN!).
The Hur'q conquered the Klingons and were driven off thousands of years ago (they were the ones that the Klingons got their warp tech from). They were said to be extinct, but......are they? (DUN DUN DUNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN!).
Ooh nice idea. I mean an empire as spread out as that of the Hur'q (They had outposts in Gamma Quadrant, and a power base in Beta and possibly Alpha after all.) in a setting with FTL tech that works like war drive and as many starships as they almost certainly had would be very hard to wipe out IMO.
The Hur'q conquered the Klingons and were driven off thousands of years ago (they were the ones that the Klingons got their warp tech from). They were said to be extinct, but......are they? (DUN DUN DUNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN!).
The Hur'q conquered the Klingons and were driven off thousands of years ago (they were the ones that the Klingons got their warp tech from). They were said to be extinct, but......are they? (DUN DUN DUNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN!).
That makes the iconians even more stagnant than the voth, since the seeding happened over 68 times farther back than the voth left earth.
On the other hand, if they are the first to recover after the slavers eradicated all life, that was only 17 times as far back as the voth leaving earth. Still means it took them a billion years to found their empire, or they lost it multiple times over that billion years. Still better than four billion years.
On the other hand it could be a reference to those who inherited the galaxy after the tkon fell which I find more likely. This also makes a neat tie in to Sargon's race.
The tkon were able to transport worlds and fell 600k years ago from a supernova. Their technology and history does parallel the sto iconians in a few significant ways.
Sargon's race were on the verge of evolving past bodies and wiped themselves out 500k years ago. The iconians reign length is not mentioned, but it ended 300k years ago. They could have been "siblings".
These time spans are far more reasonable than suddenly jumping to a billion.
Its too big of a gap to have them be the first children of the preservers without some major explanation why they are so primitive, like the voth's doctrine locking them out of scientific progress.
On the pah wraiths, the bajorans knew the prophets for 30,000 years, but the pah wraiths only 10,000ish. That is a limit of what was presented in the show, never stated as starts or ends of anything. And it is clear the prophets are older than that, and the imprisoning of pah wraiths in the fire caves does not necessarily define the date of their split. Sto has pretty much free reign to back date as far as they want.
Well... Maybe the whole thing with the Iconians getting defeated by a coalition of other races is a cycle that has happened many times?
Which reminds me.... We still don't know HOW a GAMMA quadrant race was able to conquer the Klingons....
Before the Iconians started the war they would have been one, if not the, premier species in the galaxy in terms of size and power.
The first, could be referring to their position as the "Superpower" of their time. They had the power and influence and squandered that when they started to basically perform their version of black ops. Using people against others so that didn't have direct involvement in anything that they did.
"The Whole" probably would be all the other species. It makes it seem that they were apart of an alliance. The "children" would definately point back to them being the Children of the Preservers seeding life throughout the galaxy. If "The Whole" wasn't an alliance then it could definately be an extension of the idea of family. Each race being a brother/sister race to the others.
If the Whole is family, then The Other would have to be outsiders, not preservers and not part of the Whole. (The preservers being the parents of the family (the whole) and thus being part of it.
As for who the other is it's unknown but with the mention of the Andromeda galaxy that could very well be where they came from. What do we know about species of the Andromeda Galaxy? Very little, we only know of two and both of these come from TOS.
We have an unnamed and presumably extinct race who made outposts in the Milky Way Galaxy whicih Harcourt Fenton Mudd used in "I,Mudd" and the Kelvans who dispatched Multigenerational ships to conquer neighbouring galaxies as radiation levels were rising and could potentially become hazardous as seen in "By Any Other Name".
Before the Iconians started the war they would have been one, if not the, premier species in the galaxy in terms of size and power.
The first, could be referring to their position as the "Superpower" of their time. They had the power and influence and squandered that when they started to basically perform their version of black ops. Using people against others so that didn't have direct involvement in anything that they did.
"The Whole" probably would be all the other species. It makes it seem that they were apart of an alliance. The "children" would definately point back to them being the Children of the Preservers seeding life throughout the galaxy. If "The Whole" wasn't an alliance then it could definately be an extension of the idea of family. Each race being a brother/sister race to the others.
If the Whole is family, then The Other would have to be outsiders, not preservers and not part of the Whole. (The preservers being the parents of the family (the whole) and thus being part of it.
As for who the other is it's unknown but with the mention of the Andromeda galaxy that could very well be where they came from. What do we know about species of the Andromeda Galaxy? Very little, we only know of two and both of these come from TOS.
We have an unnamed and presumably extinct race who made outposts in the Milky Way Galaxy whicih Harcourt Fenton Mudd used in "I,Mudd" and the Kelvans who dispatched Multigenerational ships to conquer neighbouring galaxies as radiation levels were rising and could potentially become hazardous as seen in "By Any Other Name".
Ther's probably two different entities that were called that, but still... I must wonder if they fit in here some how.
The ones from Exo were advanced, but not exactly a superpower. If they had expanded instead of hiding in their caves they might have become a major power in the galaxy.
The Old Ones mentioned in Catspaw, were from outside the Milky way, but we don't know WHERE exactly. there are... many other galaxies, such as the Magellenic clouds.
When you do the mission with the Obelisk one of the Iconian consoles talks about how they have an active gateway network in Andromeda.
This was, if memory serves, part of what reinvigorated my thinking the Iconians are the Old Ones from TOS.
Memory Alpha insists the two references are to different species. One created androids servants that overthrew them. One was served by the witches from Catspaw and sent their servants as scouts.
Both TOS episodes that referenced "Old Ones" were written by the same writer who likely used the term because he was a personal friend of H.P. Lovecraft. I think they were intended to be the same "old ones" and that the approximate biology we see of the Iconians and their servitors in STO coupled with Andromeda reference meant that the Iconians were intended by STO's developers to be the Old Ones.
Ruk's android species was probably involved in overthrowing Iconians and may be why Iconians had computer virus defenses.
Meanwhile, the Iconians' allies we have seen so far include several bug species and there is superficial similarity to the Ornithoid lifeforms seen in TOS and in graphics on DS9.
And a very cool idea, I always did like cat's paw as an episode.
There are some interesting things to ponder for sure. Like how long have the iconians been working on their return?
The elachi were seen by starfleet centuries ago in the enterprise episode. Per sto, were they acting independently at that time or had the iconians already been active and giving them directions?
Kahless heard stories of them a thousand+ years ago. Were they just old rehashed stories from before the fall? Were some of the iconian siblings the gods ancient Klingons overthrew? Or were they working behind the scenes that long ago?
Another question is.... How many Iconians are there? I'm guessing the number is rather small compared to most races.
That is a good question.
Edit: mark, I was thinking about your idea that the iconians might have risen and fallen multiple times. While billions or even millions of years is still implausible, I was thinking about an interesting line from enterprise. Archer asked t'pol how did the vulcans handle their early encounters with other races. She answered that it was a different time with "far fewer warp capable species".
Why would that be though? Clearly in the 250 years the federation has been around the number of warp capable races/has only increased. What might have taken out all warp capable races in the area near the alpha/beta quad border 3 thousand years ago and set back the pace of development so long such that a slew of races all get to a similar level of technology in a relatively short period of time?
Whether or not the iconians rise and fall periodically, it could be argued something whammy's the galaxy periodically.
While I know very little of actual Star Trek cannon and there does seem to be consensus that the books are non-cannon, the entity "O" does look to me to be the most likely candidate for "the other".
Would he be the most fitting enemy to improve upon the story of STO? Likely not. He is however, one of the few entities who could one-up the Iconians. Memory Alpha suggests that O was able to corrupt telepathic beings passing through the galactic rim causing them to become extremely arrogant - to the point of believing themselves gods. As the Andromeda galaxy doesn't have a galactic barrier, once the Iconians left our galaxy O would have been able to influence them to become the grumpy prodders they now are.
Again, not the most fitting story wise but the only enemy I can see as being more potent then an ancient race of mystical god science is an ancient god of mystical god god.
Although more mischevious than benevolent, "0" from the Q-Continuum books would have the power. Pair him off with his trifecta of minions: Gorgan (from "And the Children Shall Lead"), "The One" (The God entity from ST:V), and (*) (The entity from "Day of the Dove") and you have some entities even Q doesn't want to deal with.
Since the storyline from the books has "0" looking for worthy beings to become omnipotent like Q and himself, and chooses poorly every time, it could be "0".
I know Trelane is considered to be a "Q" or similar and based on the recent comic storylines the Prophets, Pah-wraiths and other immortal beings like the Q just don't get along together, but could be combined to bring about a HUGE "Deus ex-machina."
So, as part of playing Crack in the Mirror, for the Bajor Omega work around, I played through to the end, and was suprised by something that I didn't remember being there last time I played through.
In the conversation with The Prophet, the non-corporeal being says when asked about the Iconians.
So, who's "The Other".
My theories, drawn mostly from the Star Trek Extended Universe.
1. A Q or Q like being, such as Trelaine or the Gorgon or "god who needs a starship" from ST:V
2. A being greater than Q, the Them, as seen in Q and A
In the extended universe, these beings are closely linked to the Iconians. While I understand that STO draws from Canon source material, you have to wonder.
Thoughts?
I figured it would turn out that the Preservers (who preserve everything and are probably responsible for the Voth and others like Amelia Earhart turning up where they did) probably saved the last of the Iconians from orbital bombardment and are the reason we're fighting the Iconians right now. Good intentions behind making sure that no species ever goes extinct. Bad result.
The Others are a race of humanoids originating in the far north of the continent of Westeros, beyond even the Land of Always Winter beyond the Wall. They are considered mythical by most of the people of Westeros. The wildlings call them 'White Walkers '. Despite what is thought, they are not dead.
Edit: mark, I was thinking about your idea that the iconians might have risen and fallen multiple times. While billions or even millions of years is still implausible, I was thinking about an interesting line from enterprise. Archer asked t'pol how did the vulcans handle their early encounters with other races. She answered that it was a different time with "far fewer warp capable species".
Why would that be though? Clearly in the 250 years the federation has been around the number of warp capable races/has only increased. What might have taken out all warp capable races in the area near the alpha/beta quad border 3 thousand years ago and set back the pace of development so long such that a slew of races all get to a similar level of technology in a relatively short period of time?
Whether or not the iconians rise and fall periodically, it could be argued something whammy's the galaxy periodically.
Now that I think about this again.... there is another anomaly that is similar, well one among many, but a particularly relevant one. Orion civilization has apparently been in a state of decline since before the start of TOS. Why? they've been a space faring race as long as or longer than the Vulcans.... In TOS there is more than one episode dealing with what the Orions USED TO be. Why? Roger Korby made an important medical breakthrough by studing Orion writings he found in a ruined building... This would seemingly be technology the Orions themselves had lost. Again.... Why?
a) The Iconians are the "children" of the Other... and that they Other takes an active hand in protecting the Iconians... this could make them a servitor race of the Other... or it could simply be a parent who steps in... the question being... if the Other are constantly protecting the Iconians... why wouldn't they protect their other "children". It also show that the Other aren't bound to this galaxy either.
b) The Preservers may or may not be the first. They admit to seeding the galaxy... and creating all the currently known races.. but they never admit to creating the older races. It's possibly that the Preservers are simply siblings to the Iconians. Either way it's apparent by their name that the Preservers saved life from some catastrophe.
c) The Prophets are incredibally powerful beings able to transcend space and time, and they know of the Others. So it's very possibly that either the Prophets are the siblings to the Other... an off-shoot to the Other... or another sibling race to the Iconians.
So my take is... we're going to defeat the Iconians... it's going to take a while as STO is going to drag this out for a few more episodes. Right now we're only fighting the Heralds... which means at least one more episode until the Iconians show up possibly more... we're have to start losing when the Iconians finally show... then another episode for us to start wining in the Alpha and Beta Quadrants... then we'll need to invade Iconia so that's another episdoe... so we're looking at probably a year.
After that we'll have "peace" but we'll need an episode or two to set up the new danger... hidden and such.
Finally about the time we're ready to get a new expansion... assuming STO is still around by then... we're move into the Gamma Quadrant... and start seeing how the Other are related to the Prophets and the Preservers.
It's quite possibly that we're going to start dealing with time spanning entities leading into the Temporal Cold War. So it's possibly that the Other isn't even a past threat but a future one that's meddling with time.
It's also possibly that the Q become involved with this...
But here's the thing... we have a number of time/space straddling races in Star Trek and specifically in STO... and none of them are meddling with any of the rest. So the Preservers don't mess with the Prophets who don't mess with the Q who don't mess with the Other.
Personally I would love that, However If the writers do go down that path I hope they don't go too far a lot of stories in many games have attempted to or intentionally hyped up an enemy to the very point where when they introduce a new more powerful enemy that it essentially becomes less impending and devalues the whole story arc itself.
b) The Preservers may or may not be the first. They admit to seeding the galaxy... and creating all the currently known races.. but they never admit to creating the older races. It's possibly that the Preservers are simply siblings to the Iconians. Either way it's apparent by their name that the Preservers saved life from some catastrophe.
Well, the preservers did say they didnt find anyone "like them" so its entirely possible that there are races that we could see as "truely alien" in the sense that we just cant comprehend them so it stands to reason that there are far older races than the preservers and that they were simply so different they didnt feel like they could establish a dialogue or anything with them meaning the preservers when exploring were looking for something specific and not dynamic so the easiest interpretation of it is they didnt find any "humanoids" which is why they seeded the galaxy.
That said is it stated whether they expanded outside the milky way or not because thats something im curious about because if they didnt that opens up a ton of potential theories of mine.
Comments
Compare images:
Hur'q
http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/startrek/images/6/66/Hur%27q_2a.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20130714232105
Evil mystery woman from "Surface Tension"
http://forum.stoacademy.com/attachment.php?aid=685
Ooh nice idea. I mean an empire as spread out as that of the Hur'q (They had outposts in Gamma Quadrant, and a power base in Beta and possibly Alpha after all.) in a setting with FTL tech that works like war drive and as many starships as they almost certainly had would be very hard to wipe out IMO.
Your Hur'q picture is just a Collector from Mass Effect: http://nerdsworthacademy.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/collector-squad.png
Commanding Officer: Captain Pyotr Ramonovich Amosov
Dedication Plaque: "Nil Intentatum Reliquit"
What is that image from?
Edit, I see, not a trek race at all.
Which reminds me.... We still don't know HOW a GAMMA quadrant race was able to conquer the Klingons....
My character Tsin'xing
Admittedly it has been 5 years and I may have forgotten, but where in STO's story does it say that the Iconians are in the Andromeda Galaxy?
My character Tsin'xing
Before the Iconians started the war they would have been one, if not the, premier species in the galaxy in terms of size and power.
The first, could be referring to their position as the "Superpower" of their time. They had the power and influence and squandered that when they started to basically perform their version of black ops. Using people against others so that didn't have direct involvement in anything that they did.
"The Whole" probably would be all the other species. It makes it seem that they were apart of an alliance. The "children" would definately point back to them being the Children of the Preservers seeding life throughout the galaxy. If "The Whole" wasn't an alliance then it could definately be an extension of the idea of family. Each race being a brother/sister race to the others.
If the Whole is family, then The Other would have to be outsiders, not preservers and not part of the Whole. (The preservers being the parents of the family (the whole) and thus being part of it.
As for who the other is it's unknown but with the mention of the Andromeda galaxy that could very well be where they came from. What do we know about species of the Andromeda Galaxy? Very little, we only know of two and both of these come from TOS.
We have an unnamed and presumably extinct race who made outposts in the Milky Way Galaxy whicih Harcourt Fenton Mudd used in "I,Mudd" and the Kelvans who dispatched Multigenerational ships to conquer neighbouring galaxies as radiation levels were rising and could potentially become hazardous as seen in "By Any Other Name".
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Andromeda_Galaxy
Ther's probably two different entities that were called that, but still... I must wonder if they fit in here some how.
The ones from Exo were advanced, but not exactly a superpower. If they had expanded instead of hiding in their caves they might have become a major power in the galaxy.
The Old Ones mentioned in Catspaw, were from outside the Milky way, but we don't know WHERE exactly. there are... many other galaxies, such as the Magellenic clouds.
My character Tsin'xing
This was, if memory serves, part of what reinvigorated my thinking the Iconians are the Old Ones from TOS.
Memory Alpha insists the two references are to different species. One created androids servants that overthrew them. One was served by the witches from Catspaw and sent their servants as scouts.
Both TOS episodes that referenced "Old Ones" were written by the same writer who likely used the term because he was a personal friend of H.P. Lovecraft. I think they were intended to be the same "old ones" and that the approximate biology we see of the Iconians and their servitors in STO coupled with Andromeda reference meant that the Iconians were intended by STO's developers to be the Old Ones.
Ruk's android species was probably involved in overthrowing Iconians and may be why Iconians had computer virus defenses.
Meanwhile, the Iconians' allies we have seen so far include several bug species and there is superficial similarity to the Ornithoid lifeforms seen in TOS and in graphics on DS9.
And a very cool idea, I always did like cat's paw as an episode.
There are some interesting things to ponder for sure. Like how long have the iconians been working on their return?
The elachi were seen by starfleet centuries ago in the enterprise episode. Per sto, were they acting independently at that time or had the iconians already been active and giving them directions?
Kahless heard stories of them a thousand+ years ago. Were they just old rehashed stories from before the fall? Were some of the iconian siblings the gods ancient Klingons overthrew? Or were they working behind the scenes that long ago?
My character Tsin'xing
That is a good question.
Edit: mark, I was thinking about your idea that the iconians might have risen and fallen multiple times. While billions or even millions of years is still implausible, I was thinking about an interesting line from enterprise. Archer asked t'pol how did the vulcans handle their early encounters with other races. She answered that it was a different time with "far fewer warp capable species".
Why would that be though? Clearly in the 250 years the federation has been around the number of warp capable races/has only increased. What might have taken out all warp capable races in the area near the alpha/beta quad border 3 thousand years ago and set back the pace of development so long such that a slew of races all get to a similar level of technology in a relatively short period of time?
Whether or not the iconians rise and fall periodically, it could be argued something whammy's the galaxy periodically.
Would he be the most fitting enemy to improve upon the story of STO? Likely not. He is however, one of the few entities who could one-up the Iconians. Memory Alpha suggests that O was able to corrupt telepathic beings passing through the galactic rim causing them to become extremely arrogant - to the point of believing themselves gods. As the Andromeda galaxy doesn't have a galactic barrier, once the Iconians left our galaxy O would have been able to influence them to become the grumpy prodders they now are.
Again, not the most fitting story wise but the only enemy I can see as being more potent then an ancient race of mystical god science is an ancient god of mystical god god.
The Organians
The Cytherians
Although more mischevious than benevolent, "0" from the Q-Continuum books would have the power. Pair him off with his trifecta of minions: Gorgan (from "And the Children Shall Lead"), "The One" (The God entity from ST:V), and (*) (The entity from "Day of the Dove") and you have some entities even Q doesn't want to deal with.
Since the storyline from the books has "0" looking for worthy beings to become omnipotent like Q and himself, and chooses poorly every time, it could be "0".
I know Trelane is considered to be a "Q" or similar and based on the recent comic storylines the Prophets, Pah-wraiths and other immortal beings like the Q just don't get along together, but could be combined to bring about a HUGE "Deus ex-machina."
I'm telling you, they're helping the Iconians cause they're waiting for their chance to take their place as rulers of the universe.
How to defeat them? They have the same weak spot, 'hubris' as Sela mentioned
(Just kidding, in case anyone of CSP reads this. I play Caitians a lot too, my main is a Caitian
I figured it would turn out that the Preservers (who preserve everything and are probably responsible for the Voth and others like Amelia Earhart turning up where they did) probably saved the last of the Iconians from orbital bombardment and are the reason we're fighting the Iconians right now. Good intentions behind making sure that no species ever goes extinct. Bad result.
My character Tsin'xing
a) The Iconians are the "children" of the Other... and that they Other takes an active hand in protecting the Iconians... this could make them a servitor race of the Other... or it could simply be a parent who steps in... the question being... if the Other are constantly protecting the Iconians... why wouldn't they protect their other "children". It also show that the Other aren't bound to this galaxy either.
b) The Preservers may or may not be the first. They admit to seeding the galaxy... and creating all the currently known races.. but they never admit to creating the older races. It's possibly that the Preservers are simply siblings to the Iconians. Either way it's apparent by their name that the Preservers saved life from some catastrophe.
c) The Prophets are incredibally powerful beings able to transcend space and time, and they know of the Others. So it's very possibly that either the Prophets are the siblings to the Other... an off-shoot to the Other... or another sibling race to the Iconians.
So my take is... we're going to defeat the Iconians... it's going to take a while as STO is going to drag this out for a few more episodes. Right now we're only fighting the Heralds... which means at least one more episode until the Iconians show up possibly more... we're have to start losing when the Iconians finally show... then another episode for us to start wining in the Alpha and Beta Quadrants... then we'll need to invade Iconia so that's another episdoe... so we're looking at probably a year.
After that we'll have "peace" but we'll need an episode or two to set up the new danger... hidden and such.
Finally about the time we're ready to get a new expansion... assuming STO is still around by then... we're move into the Gamma Quadrant... and start seeing how the Other are related to the Prophets and the Preservers.
It's quite possibly that we're going to start dealing with time spanning entities leading into the Temporal Cold War. So it's possibly that the Other isn't even a past threat but a future one that's meddling with time.
It's also possibly that the Q become involved with this...
But here's the thing... we have a number of time/space straddling races in Star Trek and specifically in STO... and none of them are meddling with any of the rest. So the Preservers don't mess with the Prophets who don't mess with the Q who don't mess with the Other.
The question really is... Why?
Personally I would love that, However If the writers do go down that path I hope they don't go too far a lot of stories in many games have attempted to or intentionally hyped up an enemy to the very point where when they introduce a new more powerful enemy that it essentially becomes less impending and devalues the whole story arc itself.
Well, the preservers did say they didnt find anyone "like them" so its entirely possible that there are races that we could see as "truely alien" in the sense that we just cant comprehend them so it stands to reason that there are far older races than the preservers and that they were simply so different they didnt feel like they could establish a dialogue or anything with them meaning the preservers when exploring were looking for something specific and not dynamic so the easiest interpretation of it is they didnt find any "humanoids" which is why they seeded the galaxy.
That said is it stated whether they expanded outside the milky way or not because thats something im curious about because if they didnt that opens up a ton of potential theories of mine.
Adopting pirate culture no doubt came at a price.