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Feel gimped as a sci for PvE?
joshmaaaaaaans
Member Posts: 32 Arc User
So, I fly a pathfinder, and I love the ship, but I can't help but think I would be better of as a tac in a pathfinder due to go down fighting, the tac boff small reduction of cooldown and the attack pattern alpha skills.
This is mainly for PvE, I understand subnucleonic beam must be pretty ****ing crazy for PvP but idgaf, this isn't a game I play for PvP, if I want a game for PvP I play Mortal Online.
So, I'm a sci captain running ISE (Or infected the conduit advanced, w/e it's called now) in my pathfinder, and I see another tac out DPSing me by 12k DPS, which I figure, meh, standard, until I find out he's also in a pathfinder with exactly the same build, all I can think is, I really wish they implement a captain retrain token because sci is severely gimped compared to tac.
This is mainly for PvE, I understand subnucleonic beam must be pretty ****ing crazy for PvP but idgaf, this isn't a game I play for PvP, if I want a game for PvP I play Mortal Online.
So, I'm a sci captain running ISE (Or infected the conduit advanced, w/e it's called now) in my pathfinder, and I see another tac out DPSing me by 12k DPS, which I figure, meh, standard, until I find out he's also in a pathfinder with exactly the same build, all I can think is, I really wish they implement a captain retrain token because sci is severely gimped compared to tac.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Post edited by joshmaaaaaaans on
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If your intent is to do high damage with weapons on a science vessel, you're going about it wrong. Not to mention TAC Captain ability "Tactical Initiative" applies only to Tactical abilities, which the overwhelming vast majority of SCI Vessels tend to have a low count of in terms of TAC BOFF ability slots. And even if you do have a SCI Vessel with decent TAC ability counts like the Dauntless, it's still lacking in Cmdr TAC station and a whopping 6 weapon slots. That's why DPS builds using weapons as a foundation with a SCI Vessel is wasteful.
Without repeating some very long posts I had in various threads on the boards to get SCI to do good damage, I will merely point you to some of these related threads.
Nebula build
Science builds that ignore shields
Realize that to make a truly effective science build, it requires the same level of time, dedication, spending, etc. as you would with a good tactical oriented build/ship. Those efforts are merely directed to a whole different set of skillboxes and abilities.
The exact same build would yield more DPS flown by a tac captain and have pretty much the same amount of survivability.
(It's a part gen build..................................................................)
Should some damage boosting effects be swapped to "Only Exotic" and others "Only Weapons"?
Yes, they really should.
I'm a complete min maxer, and until I have all my consoles and weapons as epic as possible, ([Crtd]x4 or [Crtd]x3 [Pen] epic weapons, epic [Flow] enhanced rcs console, epic [Partg] exotic particle field exciter, etc, I wont be finished, but once that happens, the only logical thinking I have is that, ALL of what I have could be more benifical if I had begun on a tac captain, and that sucks some massive ****.
And, unfortunately, in this game, DPS is King. You really don't need to do anything else but DPS. Tanking, Debuffing, Control, Healing others, and Buffing are only needed when your team can't do enough DPS.
Cryptic is obviously fine with it, since they haven't bothered to change in, and in fact has made it more about DPS with their time gated mandatory objectives in plenty of queues.
TAC Captains of course can do great all damage increases. APA is outstanding in that you dictate at any time when you want to surge your attacks. It also of course can work in conjunction with BOFF Attack Patterns for the SCI ships that can support them, esp. APO1.
SCI Captains have to rely on Sensor Scan and "Conservation of Energy" trait. The catch for Conservation of Energy is that you must be shot at a few times for a max stack of 3, though the damage bonus is great for Exotic. The good thing with the trait is that it is always there to begin getting stacks of and stays up if you're always getting shot at (which should be all the time if you're a decent SCI player). It doesn't go into a lengthy CD like APA would.
Either way, both TAC Captains and SCI Captains can perform quite well in a PGen build. Engineers? No.
- Strive to get R&D Lv15 SCI and get "Particle Manpulator."
- Long term plan because of its high cost, replace your existing Exotic Particle Field Exciter with the [PartG] version. That gives a very high total of about 70 something Particle Generator Skill.
- Nukara Rep's universal console has a Particle Generator Skill stat to it, and deserves a console slot. You need to stack more and more PGen as possible.
- I'd dump the BFAW and slot a Torpedo Ability in its place and make the most of your special plasma torp there. That torp has lots of interesting characteristics and supports your PGen build far more than undersupported antiproton weapons that aren't backed up with great Crit Hit stats in the build. On top of that, you're never going to do impressive damage with 2 mere beam arrays and 1 omni beam array doing BFAW.
- You slotted TBR, so I'm *assuming* it's DOFFed. What I would do? Slot TBR3 and have GW1 in its old slot.
- Tykien's Rift throws Grav Well into shared cooldowns and is wasteful. You could have TBR2 in its place, which gives you 2 in addition to the previous point to have TBR3.
By making Sci a Tac instead of a Sci?
I mean, it probably kills you to realize that you're helping him outperform you by playing Sci...your Sensor Scan is increasing his damage by the same % as your damage, but because his damage is higher to begin with he's benefiting more from it.
Extremely rough example with fake numbers.
You apply a debuff that increases damage against those targets by 25%.
Your damage is 10000.
His damage is 15000.
Both of you have your damage increased by 25%.
You go to 12500 damage.
He goes to 18750 damage.
You saw an increase of 2500 damage.
He saw an increase of 3750 damage.
Both were a 25% increase, but he got 1250 more out of it.
So work in whatever real numbers one wants, but the fact that the person with more damage to begin will benefit more from the same % increase will remain.
The same would go for when he shared his TacFleet...he's going to benefit more from it than you will. The same would go for him dropping out FoMM on a target.
Hell, same goes for when you guys are dropping out the APBs.
Was he in range when you dropped out Scattering Field so you helped keep him alive? How about when you hit your SciFleet and boosted his shield heals, drain resistance, and shield damage reduction?
His APA...only helps him. His GDF...only helps him. And oh man, did you read that discussion about AMP that took place recently? His AMP > Your AMP.
If you're running the exact same build as a Tac, not only is he going to outDPS you - but Hell, you're likely helping him to do it.
Cause you're a Sci...you're not a Tac.
Which is where it usually gets into trying to ask for Tac buffs not to boost Exotic damage and making it so Sci Exotic is on par with Tac Weapon. Which usually quickly turns into a massive flamewar.
Wait wait. I thought what happened was that it applied a debuff that lowered the resistance rating of the target by an amount determined by...whatever affects sensor scan. Like Aux power and such.
And then that new lower resistance rating (previously magnitude) was used to calculate the targets new damage resistance percentage.
This number, barring any other influence, would presumably be lower than it was before you did such a mean thing.
So for example the targets final damage resistance rating may go from 50% to 25%!
If you had hit the target earlier with 100 damage it would have resisted 50% of that and you would have done 50 damage!
Now you hit it with 100 damage and it only resists 25% so the target takes 75 damage!
A fifty percent increase! Lord! you rock!
Sensor analysis seems to work off that straight percentage though.
Nerf Science!
EDIT: I totally get what you're saying Virus, I just couldn't resist the fun. Peace!
Lol...meanie!
For those that don't know, heh, NPCs have a base damage resistance of 0...so all damage debuffs actually end up resulting in an increase to final damage.
So like my guy for example (yeah, I only play a Sci)...at 125 Aux, his Sensor Scan III provides a debuff of -67.6 DRR.
Against that target with that initial 0 DR, my Scan3 will increase hull damage by 64.9%. It's not 67.6%, because although the formula is different there are still diminishing returns when it comes to damage resistance debuffs (that's before even taking into account there having been any positive damage resistance which would have resisted/reduced the amount of the debuff). Anybody interested in frying their gray matter: http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1128181 :provides a fun discussion on damage resistance.
But for a quick 'n dirty example, say I was to work some Enhanced Armor Penetration into that mix with its lol -50 DRR.
I've applied -117.6 DRR...but it's only going to increase my hull damage by 105.9%. It's a curve, like damage resistance - so eventually you'll see the diminished returns as you continue to stack the debuffs.
Speaking of Sensor Analysis though, though I should probably ask about it in the other thread with that Sci Ody...wonder if that boosts AMP too, eh?
The OP linked the build here...
See someone couldn't answer that question for me before so that's good info to have. (NPC base damage resistance)
As a far as the curve when the final value is negative shouldn't it simply mirror the positive value curve? Well you would think it would be like that.
As we move away from zero returns diminish, approaching zero they increase.
As a funny note, here's a bit I copied from that thread.
That is interesting. He claimed that there would not only be no diminishing returns for stacking debuffs, but that there would be increasing returns. That is not the behaviour I have seen.
That's the type of stuff I see that sort of baffles me.
Back on track, there was another thread where we went over a bunch of this even to the point of "can pushing DR% into negative values actually increase damage beyond the original output".
We came up with 'yes that's how the magic is done' and 'someone broke the cap as well as the diminished magnitudes'.
In other words, it's broke that's why it works so well.
Not always but regardless, you're trying to do a BFAW DPS build on a ship and build that you made not to support it.
BFAW / DPS builds rely on crit hit, severity. What's your Crit Hit? I know for a fact it's not going to be much judging by the consoles, weapon setup, equipment setup, and traits you selected. Not to mention you're trying a BFAW DPS build on a Science Vessel that has 6 weapon slots and a max of 4 TAC BOFF skill slots and none of which is higher than Lt.
Again, you're trying to do a BFAW build using only 2 beam arrays, 1 omni-beam, 1 KCB. Not even OSS will push you that much higher in dmg with that kind of firepower. You are never doing much, and the fact you insist on pushing DPS with such poor support for weapons while chasing hardcore something else (PGens), you're never going to realize the ship's potential.
I have capped aux, overcapped weapons, 77 shields and 76 engines when plasmonic leech is stacked.
My partgens are at 310ish so far, will go up another 35 once I have the partg exotic particle field exciter, the deflector adds 50 partg incase you overlooked that. Not sure how I can push partg higher than it already is utilizing 4/5 sci consoles with partgens, a deflector with +50 partgens, etc.
I could put the nukara particle convertor into a tac console slot but that would decrease my DPS severely.
Could probably drop a vulnerability locator, put in Bio-gel pack there and slot another embassy +35 partg sci console so I'd have 5/5 utilized slots for partgs, but even that feels as if it would reduce DPS.
If you wan't to flush through PVE content with a sci captain, get an escort or something with high tac boff slots. (A carrier would also be an option though)
the combination is not even remotely designed to be dps, which is the main focus in PVE.
You're science-ing wrong on every front.
The rare times I do PvE with my sci on a science vessel, I don't feel gimped at all.
The previous replier didn't say to PVP. But the same rules of Science play apply regardless of what part of the game you play.
You're still worried about weapons DPS in a ship that can't support a good weapon DPS build. It doesn't have the TAC Console Slots, it doesn't have the ample TAC BOFF seat count, it only has 6 weapon slots.
And I didn't overlook your upgraded Solanae Deflector. That's a good piece, but you need more PGens.
The ship is not built for traditional weapons DPS. The ship is designed to give you Science capability. The more you reinforce that the better.
I guess what should have been said is this:
If weapons DPS is your thing, there's better ships for that. Fly it, build for it, burn stuff.
If Science & PGen builds are your thing, there's ships that are capable for it. Fly it, spec for it, and go.
If you were flying something like an Escort or TAC Cruiser and striving for DPS, all your skillpoints, equipment are focused towards that goal. Anything that doesn't make your hit harder, more frequently is a liability. That is the same thing with Science play, just in different gear and skillpoints.
The OP stated they didn't want the Tac nerfed for what they could do in the ship, rather the OP wants the Sci buffed for what they could do in the ship.
Because, regardless of how you build that Pathfinder...outside of PvP, the Tac is going to do better in it when it comes to DPS.
If you ever tried having a look at how Science does its tricks in PvP, you'd understand a lot about that profession. To me, it's the hardest one to use. If anything, STO is set to be a team game, and while a SNB can barely strip three buffs to an NPC, it can remove thirteen buffs to a player and leave him naked.
What you're asking for is a buff to science because you can't figure how it works. Tacs directly buff their damage, Science makes that damage hurt more.
you can see it like tacs do more damage while you have normal defenses, while science does less damage while you have your defenses severely crippled.
In PvP if you get to have a tac on your side who follows your target calls, it becomes more damage while you have your defenses severely crippled.. If you make an enemy easier to kill for the team, you're invaluable.
Pathfinder isn't made for dealing damage. To me, no ship was ever built for PvE, you can get an NX and be cool with it. No, I'm not joking
Still, let's keep it to PvE, shall we? Just remember to never try doing something that another career can do surely better than you. Spec around something that tac or engi would be envious for, like crowd controlling. Science's master at doing that for example. However, Pathfinder to me doesn't even work for particle generators, not as good as Vestas assuming you have the whole set. Having access to Eject Warp Plasma on a Science Vessel... EWP-powered pets... that goes a long way. A couple days ago my Sci character scored a 98k raw reflect against another player's torpedo using the Multidimensional Shield, which instantly killed him. Ask him how "science is gimped", lol.
For the record; [Combat (Self)] Your Multidimensional Graviton Shield deals 40427 (98281) Kinetic Damage to lulz.
It wasn't even critical.
Idc about pvp, lol.
Exactly.
Later one you should have a homogeneous weapon layout, like full beams. Dont mix beams and cannons for pve.
A tac *should* out parse a sci. If for no other reason than the use of APA vs SNB. A sci *should* be better at holds, pushes, and other space magic. Sci is for support, not dps. Now you will be able to do good dps, just not as good as some tacs who know what they are doing. Heck, back when I still played my alts, my sci would usually take first or second over tacs because not everyone knows what they are doing. My job as the sci was crowd control and some debuffing and even after focusing on that, my dps was better than most if not everyone else in the pug.
In short, don't feel gimped, dps is your secondary role. Your primary role is usually crowd control and debuffing.
+1, use bound mission rewards and white gear because you won't need it for long enough to be worth the cost. Prime gear is overly overkill on mission content.
Now if you come across a cheap piece with the mods you want at end game, you can grab it and upgrade it as you go, it could be cheaper in the long run if you are willing to dump dilithium into the item.
Time will only tell!
Out of those three, with the content offered by Delta Rising, my Fed Sci's Luna-class is proving the most capable for the mix of offense and crowd-control it she brings to the fight. Between 400 points in Particle Generators, a 100% crit chance with exotic damage powers (from the lv15 science crafting trait); powers such as Tyken's Rift, Tractor Beam Repulsors, Gravity Well and the isokinetic cannon; and my tactical consoles dedicated to augment the 4 torp launchers I've using (Wide Angle quantum torp, gravimetric torp, neutronic torp, plasma emission torp)... she's really taking out the house, to the point that I can snatch first place from Crystaline Entity (Advanced) even with high-DPS Scimitars around.
I'm actually pretty impressed with it.