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Build a better bad guy or.....

rosetyler51rosetyler51 Member Posts: 1,631 Arc User
edited December 2014 in Romulan Discussion
"Fixing" a rabid Tal'Shiar dog.

How would you write Hakeev? Turn the Kirkness down? Have players try to like him? Flat out replace him?
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Comments

  • starswordcstarswordc Member Posts: 10,966 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    Reduce the ham by a factor of ten, improve the smarts. I'd rather fight a clever monster like Weyoun than an over-the-top B-movie villain.
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  • sharksinspacesharksinspace Member Posts: 121 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    Or just cut Hakeev out for the final half of the story and replace him with Sela. Let us shoot him in the face at the underground base instead of Brea.
  • psycoticvulcanpsycoticvulcan Member Posts: 4,160 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    starswordc wrote: »
    Reduce the ham by a factor of ten, improve the smarts. I'd rather fight a clever monster like Weyoun than an over-the-top B-movie villain.

    This. Ham is fun, but only in small quantities.

    Someone like Dukat, who balances ham with intelligence, would be nice.
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  • amosov78amosov78 Member Posts: 1,495 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    It's kind of a shame that Obisek turned out to be the "good" guy in the last arc, since he was infinitely better as an antagonist then Hakeev. Glad Gaul didn't turn out a big ham either.
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  • reginamala78reginamala78 Member Posts: 4,593 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    Whats wrong with him? He's a narcissist who believes he knows best for everyone, that DOOOOOOM is coming and his way is the only way, that of course since he is smarter than everyone else he should absolutely be in charge and be immune to the sacrifices he demands of everyone else, and that anyone disagreeing with him is a threat to be removed. The world is full of people like that, just not many with the power to act on it.
  • rosetyler51rosetyler51 Member Posts: 1,631 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    You're right but some people thinks he is a bad bad guy.
  • psycoticvulcanpsycoticvulcan Member Posts: 4,160 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    Whats wrong with him? He's a narcissist who believes he knows best for everyone, that DOOOOOOM is coming and his way is the only way, that of course since he is smarter than everyone else he should absolutely be in charge and be immune to the sacrifices he demands of everyone else, and that anyone disagreeing with him is a threat to be removed. The world is full of people like that, just not many with the power to act on it.

    I think it's more that he's just overacted than anything else. People don't really act that way in real-life.

    Of course, STO is not real-life...
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    "Critics who say that the optimistic utopia Star Trek depicted is now outmoded forget the cultural context that gave birth to it: Star Trek was not a manifestation of optimism when optimism was easy. Star Trek declared a hope for a future that nobody stuck in the present could believe in. For all our struggles today, we haven’t outgrown the need for stories like Star Trek. We need tales of optimism, of heroes, of courage and goodness now as much as we’ve ever needed them."
    -Thomas Marrone
  • legendarylycan#5411 legendarylycan Member Posts: 37,284 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    I think it's more that he's just overacted than anything else. People don't really act that way in real-life.

    Of course, STO is not real-life...
    be careful what you say, there...people will now be flocking here with dozens of RL examples of people who've acted exactly like hakeev
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  • davidwforddavidwford Member Posts: 1,836 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    amosov78 wrote: »
    It's kind of a shame that Obisek turned out to be the "good" guy in the last arc, since he was infinitely better as an antagonist then Hakeev. Glad Gaul didn't turn out a big ham either.

    I agree about Obisek. He would have been much more compelling as one of those "honorable adversaries". Someone the player can work alongside at times, but one whom you always keep at an arms length.
  • starswordcstarswordc Member Posts: 10,966 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    be careful what you say, there...people will now be flocking here with dozens of RL examples of people who've acted exactly like hakeev

    I can buy it from a politician. A serving military intelligence/space Gestapo officer is another thing entirely.
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  • worffan101worffan101 Member Posts: 9,518 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    I like the ham in Hakeev. It keeps what could be the most grimdark thing ever just light enough to be fun.

    Gaul, now...that's just a well-done villain all around. A bit hammy, but coldly malevolent on top of it. Ruthless, merciless, and cold as ice.

    I will always love killing Hakeev and his overwhelming ham, but Gaul...now THAT is a villain who is a worthy opponent for ANY character. He's smart, ruthless, and likes to frame everything as a macabre play...Very well done indeed.
  • tmassxtmassx Member Posts: 831 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    starswordc wrote: »
    Reduce the ham by a factor of ten, improve the smarts. I'd rather fight a clever monster like Weyoun than an over-the-top B-movie villain.

    I hope Weyoun IX is scheduled to the next expansion (3rd) , where will be extended Alpha quadrant.
    So intelligent villain Weyoun (voiced by J. Combs) and task giver Quark (A. Shimerman) or Natima Lang would be much more successful , together with visitable surface of the planets Cardassia and Ferenginar (both were in the tv show).
    Playable cardassian and ferengi species for all factions (with their unique traits f.e. bonus on using their ships), motivation spend another zens for a new character and ships , new ships f.e. Hideki, Keldon , Stingray , Ferengi raider http://johneaves.files.wordpress.com/2009/06/ferengi-vessel-small.jpg
  • warmaker001bwarmaker001b Member Posts: 9,205 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    starswordc wrote: »
    Reduce the ham by a factor of ten, improve the smarts. I'd rather fight a clever monster like Weyoun than an over-the-top B-movie villain.

    This. Hakeev was so comically awful as a villain that one couldn't take him seriously. Players foil his plans so much I was expecting Hakeev at any time in the game to scream either of these 2 lines:

    "If it wasn't for you meddling kids, I would have gotten away with it!"

    Or

    "Hogannnnnn!" (Shakes fist at you... and sorry for the slight insult to Col Klink)

    Hakeev was laughably bad, so utterly incompetent that it's hard to believe this guy was the head of the Tal Shiar.
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  • tehbubbalootehbubbaloo Member Posts: 2,003 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    i think hakeev is so over-the-top that he becomes a parody, and it doesnt make for a very engaging story. the best villains are more nuanced and multifaceted, having either a measure of charisma or some sort of cause they can make a credible argument for. in the trek universe this is pretty well represented by dukat or khan. hakeev is just too 'flat', like a comic book villain.

    hakeev is also some terrible voice acting.
  • snowpig74snowpig74 Member Posts: 267 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    The Problem with Hakeev is: despite of his "uber-ness" every time the player character and him cross lines, he loses: his eye, the failed attempt to brainwash the player character, the escape from Nopada, the last stand.

    Gaul on the contrary puts the player character into some very unpleasant situations first (Talaxian massacre &c.) therefore one takes him more seriously.
  • duncanidaho11duncanidaho11 Member Posts: 7,980 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    This. Hakeev was so comically awful as a villain that one couldn't take him seriously. Players foil his plans so much I was expecting Hakeev at any time in the game to scream either of these 2 lines:

    "If it wasn't for you meddling kids, I would have gotten away with it!"

    Or

    "Hogannnnnn!" (Shakes fist at you... and sorry for the slight insult to Col Klink)

    Hakeev was laughably bad, so utterly incompetent that it's hard to believe this guy was the head of the Tal Shiar.

    That's also characteristic of B'Vat and the lead Jem'Hadar in the 5th season episodes. Heavy handed writing that falls FAR short of the style, tone, and examples set by the IP. It doesn't seek to challenge, engage, or do anything but fill the role of "villain" created merely by the "action" format of the game.

    BUT they did do better with the Vaadwar...a lot better. It may be a bit much to ask cryptic to go back and revamp ALL their old evil-scheme dialog (I cringe every time someone tries to put emphasis on figurative expression), but I think the general point that "it sucked" doesn't need to be made now. Based on the last season (and Cooper) I think they've got the point.
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  • sannia1sannia1 Member Posts: 46 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    I don't see the point of this conversation.

    If you want them to write better villains in the future, they did so with the last expansion.

    If you want them to cast better actors, well jeez they got half the cast of Voyager in the last expansion, who else do you want? William Shatner?

    And if you want them to go back a re-write or record previous episodes, I can see them doing that eventually, but only if the game lasts a long time and they continuously improve with each expansion and reach the point were the old content becomes a drag. We've reached the point of them removing the "Seek out brave new worlds" content, but Hakeev's storyline? Try about five years from now if the game's still growing.
  • catoblepasbetacatoblepasbeta Member Posts: 1,532 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    Hakeev's motivations are awful and accomplished nothing but (predictably) ruin for the Star Empire. And then continues to diminish the species by feeding people to the Elachii. Supposedly to ensure the survival of the Romulan species under the Iconians regime....OK.....

    Meanwhile, the fledgling castoffs of the survivors of Hakeev's genocide not only survive the Iconian's wrath, but thrive under it. The Federation and Klingon Empire both also stood up to the Iconians, and still have their homeworlds.

    Hakeev wasn't so bad when he was just a colonel within the Tal Shiar with the Iconians being his little pet project. But when he got retconned into being the head of the Tal Shiar, and the Romulan military was subsumed by the Tal Shiar, he brought the entire competence of the Romulan Star Empire down by association. after that retcon, the psychotic actions of Hakeev could no longer be blamed as the actions of a lone madman pursuing his own hidden agenda, because Cryptic made him the leader of the RSE military and intelligence services and the prime advisor and right hand of the empress herself!
  • tolmariustolmarius Member Posts: 400 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    I never really saw Hakeev as all that bad of a villain. Sure, he caused mass starvation by single handedly devouring all the ham in the RSE, but I think he was simply insane. He comes off a bit like Hitler with Tourette syndrome, and perhaps the Iconians did that to him on purpose, hoping his instability would begat more instability, while relying on others like Taris do do the more delicate dirty work.

    Also, remember that he isn't the Big Bad. The Iconians are. In terms of his place in the hierarchy of evil, Hakeev isn't the coldly competant Dragon (that's Gaul), nor is he the Evil Genius (Taris). He is the Brute. The Iconian's dumb muscle, whose job is to hurt the heroes and cause chaos, regardless of how he sees himself.
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  • catoblepasbetacatoblepasbeta Member Posts: 1,532 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    Nothing inherently wrong with 'big dumb brute' villains, but he seemed wildly out of place among the Romulans, much less the Tal Shiar. As a low level lieutenant, he wouldn't have been too bad but the problem is that he's basically the only antagonist of note in the Romulan arc. The Tal Shiar leader from New Romulus would have made a much better (right hand) to Sela if Cryptic was determined to go with the Tal Shiar=RSE angle, IMO.
  • davidwforddavidwford Member Posts: 1,836 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    Hakeev wasn't so bad when he was just a colonel within the Tal Shiar with the Iconians being his little pet project. But when he got retconned into being the head of the Tal Shiar, and the Romulan military was subsumed by the Tal Shiar, he brought the entire competence of the Romulan Star Empire down by association. after that retcon, the psychotic actions of Hakeev could no longer be blamed as the actions of a lone madman pursuing his own hidden agenda, because Cryptic made him the leader of the RSE military and intelligence services and the prime advisor and right hand of the empress herself!

    I agree that him simply being one of the mid to high level goons within the Tal Shiar and the RSE advancing his own plots parallel and separate from activities "sanctioned" by the Empress made him both easier to deal with and much more engaging. It also permitted the RSE (or what's left of it) to play the plausible deniability that Romulans became so famous for in TNG and DS9. When his actions furthered the cause, the Empire publicly supports it. When his actions become a liability, they can claim he was acting on his own without authorization. His fall wouldn't bring down the organization, while his actions became part of the menacing nature of the Empire.
  • caediciuscaedicius Member Posts: 242 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    I would say Jannek or someone like she would be a better antagonist (when she was not under pressure by such a man like Hakeev). Someone who acts perhaps out of a kind of duty, not egoism or just for personal power. Someone about you could ask yourself if he or she is not perhaps right, or at least if not you could be in the same position if things went a different way. I think it should be not too easy to shot at your enemy, just because he is BAD BAD BAD (and forget that he has hundreds of people around him who are no brainwashed idiots).
  • schloopdooschloopdoo Member Posts: 373 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    I think Hakeev works just fine as the villain that he is.

    Here's this guy who, due to his position as the head of the Space KGB, found out about the threat presented by the Iconians decades earlier than anybody else. The guy's primary motivations are paranoia and cowardice, so rather than get the word out and try to form an alliance against the Iconians, or at least give other people time to prepare to fend for themselves, he buries the information and starts selling his own people out to the Iconians left and right, trying to save his own behind.

    Hakeev's a despicable person. He's a broken shell of a man, and that's what makes him dangerous.
  • tolmariustolmarius Member Posts: 400 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    Exactly. Hakeev isn't the main villain. He is a visible villain. HE is evil because he lacks the courage to be good. He lacks the courage to be neither. Ultimately, he is someone to despise and pity.
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  • thunderfoot#5163 thunderfoot Member Posts: 4,545 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    I had and still have a tough time with Hakeev as a "Bad Guy". He is a little over the top for my tastes. All he needs to complete the ensemble is a handlebar mustache to twirl and the occasional "Mua-ha-ha-ha!". I think I would have enjoyed him more if he had been a little more subdued in his outbursts.

    It is tough to write a good Bad Guy. Because it requires the writer, whether in a novel, script, or game, to step outside themselves. To do so effectively is difficult. A lot of people simply take the easy way out and make the personality of their Bad Guys reprehensible or something disgusting. This makes it easier for the player or the reader to dislike them.

    My favorite example of a very well written Bad Guy is the Romulan Commander from the TOS Episode Balance of Terror. Here was someone whose goals were diametrically opposed to the heroes. Here was someone who had a fervent belief his Cause was just. Here was someone who was prepared to do whatever it took to achieve victory for himself and his people. He had qualities which were admirable and likeable. In fact it was unfortunate he played for the wrong team and had to go down in defeat. One of the things I want most in my villains is they are not total douchebags. And when they are defeated I want to feel a little sad about it. Because under a different set of circumstances, the Romulan Commander and James T. Kirk could have been friends and allies.

    This is how I define the difference between a good villain and a great one. Hakeev doesn't measure up. Nor do most of the Bad Guys in STO. Unfortunate, really.
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  • tolmariustolmarius Member Posts: 400 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    Commander Keras wasn't a bad guy. He was simply a soldier doing his duty. You can be the antagonist without being the bad guy. Many war movies are that way.They are about soldiers doing their duty, and they don't hate thte enemy for doing his, but they fight all the same. Hakeev is a villain, He has no redeeming qualities.
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