Just off hand, do we have any idea how large the population that was placed in stasis of the Vaadwaur? Not the 500 taken out on the planet Voyager helped to wake up?
As for the story, i have only gotten to lvl 54, so i don't know beyond that story portion.
The Kobali recently colonized this world, therefore the Kobali are not indigenous to the planet. (Star Trek: Insurrection)
Also, the use of the stasis pods is not a "natural development" of their species. They already screwed up their natural development causing this procreation problem. The only reason they settled here was to make use of the stasis pods, thus grounding their previously nomadic culture.
Sorry for not reading All of the replies, but as someone that is not running these missions yet I want to put a few thoughts and cautions forward.
Vaadwuar: As a species seems to want to conquer everything around them and when faced with the kobali they want to exterminate them with prejudice.
My counter is the Klingon Empire. Named after the dominant species and if unchecked would conquer all around them. When faced with a ruthless foe (undine/changelings) is willing to go to genocide in the name of preserving themselves.
Can the Klingons have a mad ruler? Does Gowron ring any bells? This did not make Klingons worthy of no sympathy. Just the opposite.
Kobali: They take the dead around them and turn them into loyal members of their own species. Mostly. These new kobali retain some of the original being's memories. So gathering our dead they can learn our secrets? Our technology? Can Kobali techniques revive other Kobali? If so you cannot fight a war of attrition as they will keep taking in everyone's dead and adding to their numbers while those around them diminish.
In another game called Warmachine there is a group that digs up and animates the dead to learn what the other factions know. They are called the Cryx. I doubt many would consider them noble.
And in response to the idea you need to finish carrying out an order or conclude a war before you can determine if something is right or wrong. Divide et Imperia. Very sour taste for just following orders blindly. That is one mission I think would tick off a KDF or RR character as much as it distastes the feds. Why wait to learn your allies are not?
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
The Kobali are sanctimonious, self-centered hypocrites who do appalling things to others in the name of love. I wouldn't call them actively malicious, but I wouldn't call them good either.
Nobody deserves to be treated the way the Kobali are treating the Vaaduar in the stasis pods.
These, among other posts about what the Kobali do, share one critical and downright abhorrent flaw that make you people no less monsters than the Kobali - you impose human ideals onto them.
You want to nuke them from orbit? Wipe them out? Kill every last one? And for what, a slight against your own sense of decency? You're talking about things no different than killing others for having a different religion than you.
Shame on all of you. The Kobali show no malice and have genuinely good intent, not to mention their own survival being dependent on it. Do you get mad when a wolfpack takes down a reindeer? Do you get mad when a shark eats a seal?
People speak of the Federation and the ideal of Star Trel, yet here you all are failing on a fundamental level to uphold those ideals.
EDIT: I may as well.
The Vaadwaur have a legitimate reason to be attacking the Kobali. It's their right as a people to have a say in what happens to their dead. I think this should apply to all dead, and I think the Kobali simply taking them is wrong. But they aren't evil or deserving of being wiped out.
The Vaadwaur, on the other hand? Their reasons for attacking the Kobali may be justifiable, but their aggressive expansion and unforgivable actions are inexcusable. They are a threat to the Delta Quadrant and must be defeated. Returned to stasis if absolutely necessary. They could feasibly be defended on the same grounds of imposing human ideals onto them, but that fails when measured versus their sheer ruthlessness. Cold blooded murder for no other reason than to murder is in no way comparable to giving a dead person a new life at the cost of the old one they already lost.
I don't know if we're on the right side of the Kobali-Vaadwaur conflict specifically, but in opposing the Vaadwaur at large, we are undoubtedly right.
These, among other posts about what the Kobali do, share one critical and downright abhorrent flaw that make you people no less monsters than the Kobali - you impose human ideals onto them.
You want to nuke them from orbit? Wipe them out? Kill every last one? And for what, a slight against your own sense of decency? You're talking about things no different than killing others for having a different religion than you.
Shame on all of you. The Kobali show no malice and have genuinely good intent, not to mention their own survival being dependent on it. Do you get mad when a wolfpack takes down a reindeer? Do you get mad when a shark eats a seal?
People speak of the Federation and the ideal of Star Trel, yet here you all are failing on a fundamental level to uphold those ideals.
EDIT: I may as well.
The Vaadwaur have a legitimate reason to be attacking the Kobali. It's their right as a people to have a say in what happens to their dead. I think this should apply to all dead, and I think the Kobali simply taking them is wrong. But they aren't evil or deserving of being wiped out.
The Vaadwaur, on the other hand? Their reasons for attacking the Kobali may be justifiable, but their aggressive expansion and unforgivable actions are inexcusable. They are a threat to the Delta Quadrant and must be defeated. Returned to stasis if absolutely necessary. They could feasibly be defended on the same grounds of imposing human ideals onto them, but that fails when measured versus their sheer ruthlessness. Cold blooded murder for no other reason than to murder is in no way comparable to giving a dead person a new life at the cost of the old one they already lost.
I don't know if we're on the right side of the Kobali-Vaadwaur conflict specifically, but in opposing the Vaadwaur at large, we are undoubtedly right.
Here's the thing. I'm not advocating genocide against the Kobali.
I'm advocating pointing a thalaron gun at their planet and saying "stop killing and using the bodies of those Vaadwaur or we pull the trigger" as the rest of our fleet blockades Vaadwaur Prime with a planet-cracker of some sort and says "Stop attacking the Kobali or we kill you".
Both of these species are acting in unethical ways, and are responding to the other side's unethical actions like whiny children on a playground. So treat 'em like children and put them in time-out.
Short version is, the Kobali are sanctimonious, self-centered hypocrites, the Vaadwaur are arrogant racists, and Gaul is a twisted psychopath who must be stopped by any means possible.
You want to nuke them from orbit? Wipe them out? Kill every last one? And for what, a slight against your own sense of decency? You're talking about things no different than killing others for having a different religion than you.
No. I don't want to kill the Kobali, much less side with Gaul. What I want is to free the helpless victims in the stasis pods. Possibly put the Kobali in charge of the operation on trial for the murders of those who died in those pods while they watched.
And if the Vaadwuar still continued the attack, I'd be happy to defend the Kobali civilians. I would not, however, hinder the Vaadwuars' attempts to make themselves immune to Kobali assimilation.
The Vaadwaur have a legitimate reason to be attacking the Kobali. It's their right as a people to have a say in what happens to their dead. I think this should apply to all dead, and I think the Kobali simply taking them is wrong. But they aren't evil or deserving of being wiped out.
And if it was just dead people, I might even agree. But there are still live Vaadwuar in the stasis pods and the Kobali have kept them there on purpose, fully knowing that they'll die as the old pods wear out, so they can get more corpses to assimilate. That's the evil part.
The Vaadwaur, on the other hand? Their reasons for attacking the Kobali may be justifiable, but their aggressive expansion and unforgivable actions are inexcusable. They are a threat to the Delta Quadrant and must be defeated. Returned to stasis if absolutely necessary. They could feasibly be defended on the same grounds of imposing human ideals onto them, but that fails when measured versus their sheer ruthlessness. Cold blooded murder for no other reason than to murder is in no way comparable to giving a dead person a new life at the cost of the old one they already lost.
That describes Gaul and his government, yes. The Vaaduar as a species, well that would be racist.
I just started the last mission and even though i just did the briefing with Tuvok i got a big laugh when he started handing out assignments to each representative. He said that the Turei would be the ones to secure the underspace corridors. But here is what made me laugh...next he said that the Kobali would be the ones taking care of the wounded. I'm sitting here thinking "uhhh maybe they arent the best ones to take care of our wounded". I can just imagine a Kobali medic treating a wounded Fed/alliance member.
Injured Alliance Member: oh noes i got shot in the chest with a phaser /groans /passes out
Kobali Doctor: *does nothing*
Nurse: vital signs are erratic!
Kobali Doctor: *does nothing*
Nurse: doctor the patient is going into shock!
Kobali Doctor: *looks at watch*
Nurse: stats are diminishing doctor
Kobali Doctor: *sighs*
Nurse: we've lost him...the patient is dead
Kobali Doctor: ohh wells...we did everything we could, bring him to the reanimation chamber please. We will honor him by making him a Kobali.
Nurse: ...kay
IMO yes we are on the right side. Do I agree with the Kobali holding the Vaadwaur stasis pods hostage, no. The Vaadwaur, as portrayed, are violent narrow minded killers that we, as players, have to stop and I do not like limited portrayals like this either, but that is what we have to go on.
Personally I strongly dislike being railroaded. In the missions I have completed, only 56 lvl so far, the impression I get of the Kobali is a group of pathetic whiners that deserve no respect and of the Vaadwaur is that of a bully that will not change his ways until he is nearly killed, only in the Vaadwaurs case that "bully" will end up dead because he chose not to learn.
The Prime Directive is an incredibly idiotic regulation that in TOS was limited, to my knowledge, to cultures that did not have faster than light travel not any culture that they interacted with. But this thread is about the Kobali / Vaadwaur interaction and the prime directive is a topic for another thread
Truthfully I dont think we should be taking sides in this AT ALL. That benzite who said that the prime directive isnt about judging, its about helping clearly never read the flaming thing.
Whatever the Vaadwuar species may have done, the Kobali are still effectively murdering those trapped in the stasis pods by actively preventing their rescue by their own people. Thats assuming they arent sabotaging the pods, which is even more murdersome.
Dont get me wrong, Im not in favour of nuking the kobali. But holding the pods hostage is wrong, and so is disregarding the wishes and cultures of every being they reanimate.
Got a cat? Have 10 minutes to help someone make the best degree dissertation of all time?
Then please fill out my dissertation survey on feline attachment, it'd be a massive help (-:
While I am all for backing the Kobali's defence of their world I've been thinking
Do the Stasis Pod Vaadwaur technically have POW rights? And if so are they being denied those rights?
Are there civilians among them? Are they technically eligible for Refugee status? Is keeping them in stasis and thus preventing them from potentially defecting or surrendering to the Alliance forces?
Now obviously its not likely that they would seek any of those things, going by all accounts of vaadwaur Behavior, BUT by preventing them from having that option are we are effectively denying them their rights?
So should the Delta Alliance be forcing the Kobali to reanimate the captive Vaadwaur, and taking them Prisoner, but of course granting them what POW rights they are currently denied?
Can the Alliance take that strain though? Is it morally right to do so, but tactically foolish?
These are the Voyages on the STO forum, the final frontier. Our continuing mission: to explore Pretentious Posts, to seek out new Overreactions and Misinformation , to boldly experience Cynicism like no man has before.......
While I am all for backing the Kobali's defence of their world I've been thinking
Do the Stasis Pod Vaadwaur technically have POW rights? And if so are they being denied those rights?
Are there civilians among them? Are they technically eligible for Refugee status? Is keeping them in stasis and thus preventing them from potentially defecting or surrendering to the Alliance forces?
Now obviously its not likely that they would seek any of those things, going by all accounts of vaadwaur Behavior, BUT by preventing them from having that option are we are effectively denying them their rights?
So should the Delta Alliance be forcing the Kobali to reanimate the captive Vaadwaur, and taking them Prisoner, but of course granting them what POW rights they are currently denied?
Can the Alliance take that strain though? Is it morally right to do so, but tactically foolish?
A couple thoughts, I believe to be a POW you need to be a captured enemy combatant. These are hostages taken that have provoked the Vaadwuar. There fore claiming them in the first place is a terrorist act.
Next up, from what I understand the Kobali decided to settle the world and then found inhabitants and began keeping them in isolation while they keep their world.
So why is the alliance involved?
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
Personally, what irritated me the most with the whole thing was the insistance on the Prime Directive. Romulans don't have that in the first place. I felt rather forced to help those Kobali.
Also, I started thinking. Sure, the Vaadwaur aren't nice people. Not those Vaadwaur, at least. But that someone would declare war on the Kobali was inevitable, really. Sure, some races and cultures don't care what happens to their dead. But some do, and some react quite badly. That cultural disconnect would have to come into play sooner or later anyway.
You know what my solution would have been? Tell the Kobali to give back those Vaadwaur stasis pods, get the Vaadwaur to back off, and then put the Kobali in touch with races who don't care what happens to their dead. (I saw that mentioned in another Kobali thread, and thought it was genius, to be frank.)
Take the Ferengi. They monetize their own deaths anyway. And I'm sure others could be found who didn't care, or thought it was a good deal. Put them into touch with the Kobali, sort out contracts, and so on.
For preference, I would have wanted to fix the whole Kobali lack of fertility. (seriously, get enough geneticists together. Vulcans are good at genetics, for instance.)
But if not, at least I'd try to settle it so everyone involved is reasonably happy, or at least content. My own personal preferences aside, sure, the Federation could chase off the Vaadwaur, but what then? The whole topic is such a hot button for many it's only a matter of time before the same thing happens again with another race against the Kobali.
The Vaadwaur being *******s is a different topic. That'd have to be dealt with too, naturally. Can't have them go around taking over the entire quadrant.
For gameplay reasons, the Vaadwuar are never going to back off...that would mean shutting down the Kobali adventure zone.
But given the attitudes of Gaul and other high-ranking Vaadwuar leaders, it's quite clear they would continue the war even if the hostages are freed, so that's not really a problem storywise.
Don't see how it would require shutting down the adventure zone, really. Even after I've done Cutting the Cord, I can go back and replay missions with Hakeev in them. Time is rather fluid in this game anyway.
Point was more that neither side is exactly innocent victims here, and that I don't see how what the Federation is doing to help the Kobali as much of a long term solution. It is true that if the Kobali hadn't pissed off the Vaadwaur, someone else would have, and the other way around as well, though. (And I play Romulan. The only reason my Romulans would even follow the Prime Directive, would be because if they didn't, the Federation would be upset, which would upset D'Tan, who needs the alliance.)
As I mentioned, stopping the Vaadwaur would only invevitably mean some other culture would get angry at the Kobali instead. Those practices would offend a few people. As shown in this very thread. People are debating it.
I personally don't like either group. Sure, it can be argued all day that the Vaadwaur are a worse problem. But that doesn't make the whole issue of what the Kobali are doing any less questionable. So I can understand the temptation to knock all their heads together.
The Vaadwaur do need to be dealt with. But do we have to allow the Kobali to take the bodies of the unwilling in the process? If the people whose bodies they took were willing and agreeing to it, fine. I dont' like it, but I'd tolerate it at least. (Just I'd likely make sure to render my characters' bodies unusable by the Kobali if I could, but that's another matter.)
I just started the last mission and even though i just did the briefing with Tuvok i got a big laugh when he started handing out assignments to each representative. He said that the Turei would be the ones to secure the underspace corridors. But here is what made me laugh...next he said that the Kobali would be the ones taking care of the wounded. I'm sitting here thinking "uhhh maybe they arent the best ones to take care of our wounded". I can just imagine a Kobali medic treating a wounded Fed/alliance member.
Injured Alliance Member: oh noes i got shot in the chest with a phaser /groans /passes out
Kobali Doctor: *does nothing*
Nurse: vital signs are erratic!
Kobali Doctor: *does nothing*
Nurse: doctor the patient is going into shock!
Kobali Doctor: *looks at watch*
Nurse: stats are diminishing doctor
Kobali Doctor: *sighs*
Nurse: we've lost him...the patient is dead
Kobali Doctor: ohh wells...we did everything we could, bring him to the reanimation chamber please. We will honor him by making him a Kobali.
Nurse: ...kay
I agree. Their actions constitute criminal negligence resulting in death, which constitutes manslaughter or culpable homicide depending on which country's definition you decide to use.
Personally, what irritated me the most with the whole thing was the insistance on the Prime Directive. Romulans don't have that in the first place. I felt rather forced to help those Kobali.
Also, I started thinking. Sure, the Vaadwaur aren't nice people. Not those Vaadwaur, at least. But that someone would declare war on the Kobali was inevitable, really. Sure, some races and cultures don't care what happens to their dead. But some do, and some react quite badly. That cultural disconnect would have to come into play sooner or later anyway.
You know what my solution would have been? Tell the Kobali to give back those Vaadwaur stasis pods, get the Vaadwaur to back off, and then put the Kobali in touch with races who don't care what happens to their dead. (I saw that mentioned in another Kobali thread, and thought it was genius, to be frank.)
Take the Ferengi. They monetize their own deaths anyway. And I'm sure others could be found who didn't care, or thought it was a good deal. Put them into touch with the Kobali, sort out contracts, and so on.
For preference, I would have wanted to fix the whole Kobali lack of fertility. (seriously, get enough geneticists together. Vulcans are good at genetics, for instance.)
But if not, at least I'd try to settle it so everyone involved is reasonably happy, or at least content. My own personal preferences aside, sure, the Federation could chase off the Vaadwaur, but what then? The whole topic is such a hot button for many it's only a matter of time before the same thing happens again with another race against the Kobali.
The Vaadwaur being *******s is a different topic. That'd have to be dealt with too, naturally. Can't have them go around taking over the entire quadrant.
I agree with you that the Alliance should be focusing on how to address their fertility rather than assist them in collecting the dead ("Bring out your dead!") . Arguably, the Kobali are not even the same species since their method of "procreation" doesn't create new DNA, but merely rewrites and recodes it via a virus. There is no new combinations, but rather a re-transcription of an already existing pattern.
Honestly, I think I would rather have had the Vaadwaur as the Good Guys. "Hey gang! We're gonna go to the Delta Quadrant and help a bunch of body snatchers carry on with their nefarious ways! C'Mon! Let's go!"
Wait. What?!
Actually what would have been best of all is a story line explaining why the Hazari became mercenaries. Which included some nastiness from the Kazon taking over Hazari space and the Delta Alliance going in to take it back. Yeah, I know. Been there. Done that. Still grinding the Rep Marks for it.
Still, it is a bit disconcerting to be helping zombies. Intelligent, space-going zombies but zombies nevertheless.
Reckon the Devs watched World War Z a few too many times before that initial story meeting? :P
A six year old boy and his starship. Living the dream.
You know what my solution would have been? Tell the Kobali to give back those Vaadwaur stasis pods, get the Vaadwaur to back off, and then put the Kobali in touch with races who don't care what happens to their dead. (I saw that mentioned in another Kobali thread, and thought it was genius, to be frank.)
I'm a bit further along than the OP, and I don't think that Gaul wants the pods back so much as he really, really wants to exterminate the Kobali. And possibly a few other races, too.
And while my Reman doesn't give two figs about the prime directive, she doesn't like slavers at all, and would be quite happy wiping out all of the Vaadwuar high command.
For gameplay reasons, the Vaadwuar are never going to back off...that would mean shutting down the Kobali adventure zone.
But given the attitudes of Gaul and other high-ranking Vaadwuar leaders, it's quite clear they would continue the war even if the hostages are freed, so that's not really a problem storywise.
They should of had options for you to choose which side you wanted to be on...
at the end of the day we stay neutral cause we want to build an alliance against the Iconians...
you can set up on one corner, you help the Vaad resuce their folks by slaughtering as many zombie freaks as possible... on the other you help raise a zombie population :0
you can only choose one faction... but they both give the same things roughly... different names and textures but stats wise, it's all the same.
I think more folks would of choosen to help the Vaad cause frankly the Kobani are just so anti Trek. I just dont see how the Fed would ever consider helping them... much less send troops to die on their battlefield... fresh meat to convert!
In the end there is a Vaadwuar civil war and the player works with one faction to kill Gaul...but I still didn't see any mention of those stasis pods. Did everyone just forget about them?
Truthfully I dont think we should be taking sides in this AT ALL. That benzite who said that the prime directive isnt about judging, its about helping clearly never read the flaming thing.
After hearing her, I wanted to put a plasma bolt into her back and then hand her over for nanoprocessing, I mean zombification or "rebirth" as the Kobali claim. Yes, that was a Red Faction 2 reference.
I have read in a few places that Benzites use genetic manipulation and that they have does so for throughout Benzite recorded history. This flies in the face of Federation genetic engineering laws. Were the Benzites given special dispensation from those laws as part of their admittance into the Federation? I suspect that her flagrant contempt may stem from her culture's special treatment permitting them to manipulate DNA while it is criminal for every other Federation member species who attempts to do the same. Her species gets special treatment, so she thinks the Kobali should be given the same special treatment.
the Benzite capt is correct in telling Harry Prime Directive, "stow it". From and outsiders position we [the Federation] has no right to tell a culture what they are doing is right or wrong. Yes at times that's taking the moral high ground and its a copout but its still necessary.
The Kobali did state that they would release the living Vaadwuar back to their comrades once hostilities have stopped. Which from a military since is the right choice. Why release potential enemies in an ongoing war. Since it seems the Kobali view rebirth as sacred its highly unlikely that they would cause a "malfunction" in the stasis pods to make more corpse. If they were they yes they would lose all moral grounds in this debate.
The Vaadwuar are "children" in an adult world. Yes they have every right to be angry at what the Kobali have done to their died but that doesn't that give you the right to commit genocide. Since the Vaadwuar are aggressive and single-minded if they just "asked" for the pods back without resorting to violence I am sure they would get their people back and talked to the Kobali about their customs then war could have possible been averted.
It was nice to see that the Kobali are talking with the Alliance about using their dead that wish to be reborn a chance at a second life. This not have been easy or as beneficial as a temple full of Vaadwuar but its more right then violating another cultures customs.
What the Kobali should really be doing, however embarrassing a topic it may be for them is to ask other races a way to reverse their reproduction problem I am sure that the minds of the Federation, Alliance and Cooperative can come up with a solution.
After hearing her, I wanted to put a plasma bolt into her back and then hand her over for nanoprocessing, I mean zombification or "rebirth" as the Kobali claim. Yes, that was a Red Faction 2 reference.
I have read in a few places that Benzites use genetic manipulation and that they have does so for throughout Benzite recorded history. This flies in the face of Federation genetic engineering laws. Were the Benzites given special dispensation from those laws as part of their admittance into the Federation? I suspect that her flagrant contempt may stem from her culture's special treatment permitting them to manipulate DNA while it is criminal for every other Federation member species who attempts to do the same. Her species gets special treatment, so she thinks the Kobali should be given the same special treatment.
depends on the type of manipulation. If your doing it to make lack of a better term "Superhumans" then yes that is outlawed by the Federation. However if your doing it as a form of gene therapy. i.e. you have a defective gene that will cause you to die before your 30 yrs old then yea that's not illegal since all you are doing is allow that person to live a full and "normal" life.
In the end there is a Vaadwuar civil war and the player works with one faction to kill Gaul...but I still didn't see any mention of those stasis pods. Did everyone just forget about them?
The Kobali agreed to maintain the existing working pods, and give the remaining living V. back to the Vaadwuar after hostilities ceased. Gual wasn't particularly interested.
The Kobali agreed to maintain the existing working pods, and give the remaining living V. back to the Vaadwuar after hostilities ceased. Gual wasn't particularly interested.
did you do the full Kobali Prime ground episodes? its the every last one. besides theres another shocker at the end of the cinema for that episode.
You know what I find curious? The fact that the Roms side with the Kobali with very little thought. Think about it:
One of the things that defined Hakeev as a evil person were his dealings with the Elachi. Are there not similarities between the Elachi and the Kobali?
There have already been comparisons between the Kobali and the Borg, but there are a few notable differences: namely, that assimilation is reversible (the Cooperative), but transformation is not. In fact, at one point Rom players burn the pods full of half- transformed Elachi rather than freeing them(with the exception of those who have not started the process yet). This implies that the process is irreversible, or else you would have presumably rescued the victims, many of who were probably with you on Virhnat.
While the debate over who is worse has already been fleshed out by many of you, I find it strange that no Romulan is uneasy helping someone so much like the Elachi. If there was a moral debate, or even an acknowledgement, I'd be fine, but just going along with it seems ridiculously hypocritical.
While the debate over who is worse has already been fleshed out by many of you, I find it strange that no Romulan is uneasy helping someone so much like the Elachi. If there was a moral debate, or even an acknowledgement, I'd be fine, but just going along with it seems ridiculously hypocritical.
No Romulan NPC in the game perhaps, but believe me, my Romulan character was very uncomfortable with the whole thing, and I always chose the dialogue options that had me siding with Captain Kim and his own objections to the practice.
That said, it would have been one thing if the Vaadwaur had just been trying to stop the Kobali from using their dead. It became quite another when it was clear they wanted nothing short of the Kobali's extermination, even after the Kobali offered to stop converting dead Vaadwaur and to return their bodies. My character might not like the whole Kobali "rebirthing" process, but I hope you can understand why she would be even more uncomfortable with the idea of genocide/xenocide.
"There will never be enough blood to wash away my need for vengeance! A single world...I could destroy a million worlds and it would not be enough! Your existence is an insult to the memory of my people! I will continue my fight, even if I must fight alone!"
Comments
because the Kobali replced Harry maybe are working together with the Undine
Subscribed For: 4 years 5 months 20 days at 26.10.2014
As for the story, i have only gotten to lvl 54, so i don't know beyond that story portion.
frankly we should nuke the Kobali imo.
grind the rep and then forget this bad taste.
The Kobali recently colonized this world, therefore the Kobali are not indigenous to the planet. (Star Trek: Insurrection)
Also, the use of the stasis pods is not a "natural development" of their species. They already screwed up their natural development causing this procreation problem. The only reason they settled here was to make use of the stasis pods, thus grounding their previously nomadic culture.
Vaadwuar: As a species seems to want to conquer everything around them and when faced with the kobali they want to exterminate them with prejudice.
My counter is the Klingon Empire. Named after the dominant species and if unchecked would conquer all around them. When faced with a ruthless foe (undine/changelings) is willing to go to genocide in the name of preserving themselves.
Can the Klingons have a mad ruler? Does Gowron ring any bells? This did not make Klingons worthy of no sympathy. Just the opposite.
Kobali: They take the dead around them and turn them into loyal members of their own species. Mostly. These new kobali retain some of the original being's memories. So gathering our dead they can learn our secrets? Our technology? Can Kobali techniques revive other Kobali? If so you cannot fight a war of attrition as they will keep taking in everyone's dead and adding to their numbers while those around them diminish.
In another game called Warmachine there is a group that digs up and animates the dead to learn what the other factions know. They are called the Cryx. I doubt many would consider them noble.
And in response to the idea you need to finish carrying out an order or conclude a war before you can determine if something is right or wrong. Divide et Imperia. Very sour taste for just following orders blindly. That is one mission I think would tick off a KDF or RR character as much as it distastes the feds. Why wait to learn your allies are not?
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
These, among other posts about what the Kobali do, share one critical and downright abhorrent flaw that make you people no less monsters than the Kobali - you impose human ideals onto them.
You want to nuke them from orbit? Wipe them out? Kill every last one? And for what, a slight against your own sense of decency? You're talking about things no different than killing others for having a different religion than you.
Shame on all of you. The Kobali show no malice and have genuinely good intent, not to mention their own survival being dependent on it. Do you get mad when a wolfpack takes down a reindeer? Do you get mad when a shark eats a seal?
People speak of the Federation and the ideal of Star Trel, yet here you all are failing on a fundamental level to uphold those ideals.
EDIT: I may as well.
The Vaadwaur have a legitimate reason to be attacking the Kobali. It's their right as a people to have a say in what happens to their dead. I think this should apply to all dead, and I think the Kobali simply taking them is wrong. But they aren't evil or deserving of being wiped out.
The Vaadwaur, on the other hand? Their reasons for attacking the Kobali may be justifiable, but their aggressive expansion and unforgivable actions are inexcusable. They are a threat to the Delta Quadrant and must be defeated. Returned to stasis if absolutely necessary. They could feasibly be defended on the same grounds of imposing human ideals onto them, but that fails when measured versus their sheer ruthlessness. Cold blooded murder for no other reason than to murder is in no way comparable to giving a dead person a new life at the cost of the old one they already lost.
I don't know if we're on the right side of the Kobali-Vaadwaur conflict specifically, but in opposing the Vaadwaur at large, we are undoubtedly right.
I Support Disco | Disco is Love | Disco is Life
Here's the thing. I'm not advocating genocide against the Kobali.
I'm advocating pointing a thalaron gun at their planet and saying "stop killing and using the bodies of those Vaadwaur or we pull the trigger" as the rest of our fleet blockades Vaadwaur Prime with a planet-cracker of some sort and says "Stop attacking the Kobali or we kill you".
Both of these species are acting in unethical ways, and are responding to the other side's unethical actions like whiny children on a playground. So treat 'em like children and put them in time-out.
Short version is, the Kobali are sanctimonious, self-centered hypocrites, the Vaadwaur are arrogant racists, and Gaul is a twisted psychopath who must be stopped by any means possible.
And if the Vaadwuar still continued the attack, I'd be happy to defend the Kobali civilians. I would not, however, hinder the Vaadwuars' attempts to make themselves immune to Kobali assimilation. And if it was just dead people, I might even agree. But there are still live Vaadwuar in the stasis pods and the Kobali have kept them there on purpose, fully knowing that they'll die as the old pods wear out, so they can get more corpses to assimilate. That's the evil part. That describes Gaul and his government, yes. The Vaaduar as a species, well that would be racist.
I just started the last mission and even though i just did the briefing with Tuvok i got a big laugh when he started handing out assignments to each representative. He said that the Turei would be the ones to secure the underspace corridors. But here is what made me laugh...next he said that the Kobali would be the ones taking care of the wounded. I'm sitting here thinking "uhhh maybe they arent the best ones to take care of our wounded". I can just imagine a Kobali medic treating a wounded Fed/alliance member.
Injured Alliance Member: oh noes i got shot in the chest with a phaser /groans /passes out
Kobali Doctor: *does nothing*
Nurse: vital signs are erratic!
Kobali Doctor: *does nothing*
Nurse: doctor the patient is going into shock!
Kobali Doctor: *looks at watch*
Nurse: stats are diminishing doctor
Kobali Doctor: *sighs*
Nurse: we've lost him...the patient is dead
Kobali Doctor: ohh wells...we did everything we could, bring him to the reanimation chamber please. We will honor him by making him a Kobali.
Nurse: ...kay
Personally I strongly dislike being railroaded. In the missions I have completed, only 56 lvl so far, the impression I get of the Kobali is a group of pathetic whiners that deserve no respect and of the Vaadwaur is that of a bully that will not change his ways until he is nearly killed, only in the Vaadwaurs case that "bully" will end up dead because he chose not to learn.
The Prime Directive is an incredibly idiotic regulation that in TOS was limited, to my knowledge, to cultures that did not have faster than light travel not any culture that they interacted with. But this thread is about the Kobali / Vaadwaur interaction and the prime directive is a topic for another thread
Whatever the Vaadwuar species may have done, the Kobali are still effectively murdering those trapped in the stasis pods by actively preventing their rescue by their own people. Thats assuming they arent sabotaging the pods, which is even more murdersome.
Dont get me wrong, Im not in favour of nuking the kobali. But holding the pods hostage is wrong, and so is disregarding the wishes and cultures of every being they reanimate.
Then please fill out my dissertation survey on feline attachment, it'd be a massive help (-:
https://www.surveymonkey.co.uk/r/87XKSGH
Do the Stasis Pod Vaadwaur technically have POW rights? And if so are they being denied those rights?
Are there civilians among them? Are they technically eligible for Refugee status? Is keeping them in stasis and thus preventing them from potentially defecting or surrendering to the Alliance forces?
Now obviously its not likely that they would seek any of those things, going by all accounts of vaadwaur Behavior, BUT by preventing them from having that option are we are effectively denying them their rights?
So should the Delta Alliance be forcing the Kobali to reanimate the captive Vaadwaur, and taking them Prisoner, but of course granting them what POW rights they are currently denied?
Can the Alliance take that strain though? Is it morally right to do so, but tactically foolish?
A couple thoughts, I believe to be a POW you need to be a captured enemy combatant. These are hostages taken that have provoked the Vaadwuar. There fore claiming them in the first place is a terrorist act.
Next up, from what I understand the Kobali decided to settle the world and then found inhabitants and began keeping them in isolation while they keep their world.
So why is the alliance involved?
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
Also, I started thinking. Sure, the Vaadwaur aren't nice people. Not those Vaadwaur, at least. But that someone would declare war on the Kobali was inevitable, really. Sure, some races and cultures don't care what happens to their dead. But some do, and some react quite badly. That cultural disconnect would have to come into play sooner or later anyway.
You know what my solution would have been? Tell the Kobali to give back those Vaadwaur stasis pods, get the Vaadwaur to back off, and then put the Kobali in touch with races who don't care what happens to their dead. (I saw that mentioned in another Kobali thread, and thought it was genius, to be frank.)
Take the Ferengi. They monetize their own deaths anyway. And I'm sure others could be found who didn't care, or thought it was a good deal. Put them into touch with the Kobali, sort out contracts, and so on.
For preference, I would have wanted to fix the whole Kobali lack of fertility. (seriously, get enough geneticists together. Vulcans are good at genetics, for instance.)
But if not, at least I'd try to settle it so everyone involved is reasonably happy, or at least content. My own personal preferences aside, sure, the Federation could chase off the Vaadwaur, but what then? The whole topic is such a hot button for many it's only a matter of time before the same thing happens again with another race against the Kobali.
The Vaadwaur being *******s is a different topic. That'd have to be dealt with too, naturally. Can't have them go around taking over the entire quadrant.
But given the attitudes of Gaul and other high-ranking Vaadwuar leaders, it's quite clear they would continue the war even if the hostages are freed, so that's not really a problem storywise.
Point was more that neither side is exactly innocent victims here, and that I don't see how what the Federation is doing to help the Kobali as much of a long term solution. It is true that if the Kobali hadn't pissed off the Vaadwaur, someone else would have, and the other way around as well, though. (And I play Romulan. The only reason my Romulans would even follow the Prime Directive, would be because if they didn't, the Federation would be upset, which would upset D'Tan, who needs the alliance.)
As I mentioned, stopping the Vaadwaur would only invevitably mean some other culture would get angry at the Kobali instead. Those practices would offend a few people. As shown in this very thread. People are debating it.
I personally don't like either group. Sure, it can be argued all day that the Vaadwaur are a worse problem. But that doesn't make the whole issue of what the Kobali are doing any less questionable. So I can understand the temptation to knock all their heads together.
The Vaadwaur do need to be dealt with. But do we have to allow the Kobali to take the bodies of the unwilling in the process? If the people whose bodies they took were willing and agreeing to it, fine. I dont' like it, but I'd tolerate it at least. (Just I'd likely make sure to render my characters' bodies unusable by the Kobali if I could, but that's another matter.)
I agree. Their actions constitute criminal negligence resulting in death, which constitutes manslaughter or culpable homicide depending on which country's definition you decide to use.
I agree with you that the Alliance should be focusing on how to address their fertility rather than assist them in collecting the dead ("Bring out your dead!") . Arguably, the Kobali are not even the same species since their method of "procreation" doesn't create new DNA, but merely rewrites and recodes it via a virus. There is no new combinations, but rather a re-transcription of an already existing pattern.
Wait. What?!
Actually what would have been best of all is a story line explaining why the Hazari became mercenaries. Which included some nastiness from the Kazon taking over Hazari space and the Delta Alliance going in to take it back. Yeah, I know. Been there. Done that. Still grinding the Rep Marks for it.
Still, it is a bit disconcerting to be helping zombies. Intelligent, space-going zombies but zombies nevertheless.
Reckon the Devs watched World War Z a few too many times before that initial story meeting? :P
I'm a bit further along than the OP, and I don't think that Gaul wants the pods back so much as he really, really wants to exterminate the Kobali. And possibly a few other races, too.
And while my Reman doesn't give two figs about the prime directive, she doesn't like slavers at all, and would be quite happy wiping out all of the Vaadwuar high command.
They should of had options for you to choose which side you wanted to be on...
at the end of the day we stay neutral cause we want to build an alliance against the Iconians...
you can set up on one corner, you help the Vaad resuce their folks by slaughtering as many zombie freaks as possible... on the other you help raise a zombie population :0
you can only choose one faction... but they both give the same things roughly... different names and textures but stats wise, it's all the same.
I think more folks would of choosen to help the Vaad cause frankly the Kobani are just so anti Trek. I just dont see how the Fed would ever consider helping them... much less send troops to die on their battlefield... fresh meat to convert!
My character Tsin'xing
After hearing her, I wanted to put a plasma bolt into her back and then hand her over for nanoprocessing, I mean zombification or "rebirth" as the Kobali claim. Yes, that was a Red Faction 2 reference.
I have read in a few places that Benzites use genetic manipulation and that they have does so for throughout Benzite recorded history. This flies in the face of Federation genetic engineering laws. Were the Benzites given special dispensation from those laws as part of their admittance into the Federation? I suspect that her flagrant contempt may stem from her culture's special treatment permitting them to manipulate DNA while it is criminal for every other Federation member species who attempts to do the same. Her species gets special treatment, so she thinks the Kobali should be given the same special treatment.
The Kobali did state that they would release the living Vaadwuar back to their comrades once hostilities have stopped. Which from a military since is the right choice. Why release potential enemies in an ongoing war. Since it seems the Kobali view rebirth as sacred its highly unlikely that they would cause a "malfunction" in the stasis pods to make more corpse. If they were they yes they would lose all moral grounds in this debate.
The Vaadwuar are "children" in an adult world. Yes they have every right to be angry at what the Kobali have done to their died but that doesn't that give you the right to commit genocide. Since the Vaadwuar are aggressive and single-minded if they just "asked" for the pods back without resorting to violence I am sure they would get their people back and talked to the Kobali about their customs then war could have possible been averted.
It was nice to see that the Kobali are talking with the Alliance about using their dead that wish to be reborn a chance at a second life. This not have been easy or as beneficial as a temple full of Vaadwuar but its more right then violating another cultures customs.
What the Kobali should really be doing, however embarrassing a topic it may be for them is to ask other races a way to reverse their reproduction problem I am sure that the minds of the Federation, Alliance and Cooperative can come up with a solution.
depends on the type of manipulation. If your doing it to make lack of a better term "Superhumans" then yes that is outlawed by the Federation. However if your doing it as a form of gene therapy. i.e. you have a defective gene that will cause you to die before your 30 yrs old then yea that's not illegal since all you are doing is allow that person to live a full and "normal" life.
The Kobali agreed to maintain the existing working pods, and give the remaining living V. back to the Vaadwuar after hostilities ceased. Gual wasn't particularly interested.
did you do the full Kobali Prime ground episodes? its the every last one. besides theres another shocker at the end of the cinema for that episode.
One of the things that defined Hakeev as a evil person were his dealings with the Elachi. Are there not similarities between the Elachi and the Kobali?
There have already been comparisons between the Kobali and the Borg, but there are a few notable differences: namely, that assimilation is reversible (the Cooperative), but transformation is not. In fact, at one point Rom players burn the pods full of half- transformed Elachi rather than freeing them(with the exception of those who have not started the process yet). This implies that the process is irreversible, or else you would have presumably rescued the victims, many of who were probably with you on Virhnat.
While the debate over who is worse has already been fleshed out by many of you, I find it strange that no Romulan is uneasy helping someone so much like the Elachi. If there was a moral debate, or even an acknowledgement, I'd be fine, but just going along with it seems ridiculously hypocritical.
No Romulan NPC in the game perhaps, but believe me, my Romulan character was very uncomfortable with the whole thing, and I always chose the dialogue options that had me siding with Captain Kim and his own objections to the practice.
That said, it would have been one thing if the Vaadwaur had just been trying to stop the Kobali from using their dead. It became quite another when it was clear they wanted nothing short of the Kobali's extermination, even after the Kobali offered to stop converting dead Vaadwaur and to return their bodies. My character might not like the whole Kobali "rebirthing" process, but I hope you can understand why she would be even more uncomfortable with the idea of genocide/xenocide.