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I'm confused at the way the hammer swings??
kamble
Member Posts: 0 Arc User
I need some clarification and forum wisdom here..
The following describes the kind of information or post my underlying questions relate to. It isnt inflamatary or derisive in any way, and it doesnt contain any direct information from a post, so as not to incur any problems.
So, I'm reading through an old closed thread, it contains the usual kinds of comments, some reasoned, some irrational, some full of bile, some removed by mods and some a little off the wall. Towards the last pages I see a single post that sits somewhat out of place, in reality holding only a modest hint of relavence to the original Topic, in as much as the thread asked how, and this post replied what. But, it did sum up pretty effectively, just what this game means to some people. There was no anger in this post, no real sense of bitterness, it was an honest, sincere account of an individuals experience with the game. If the post had legs it would be simply trudging through the forums. It was that sense of weary resignation that really grabbed my attention and struck an emotional chord.
1. At what reasonable point should information, or a post, from a closed thread, become permissable for questioning, evaluating, or referencing?
2. When looking though threads, old and new alike, how are we to define what should be included or used for a new topic? Is it simply a matter changing some words here and there? Do we need to modify the context? Can you think of a reason why we should need to?
3. What if the post, paragraph, or sentence was originally deemed fit for a thread and wasnt the reason behind the thread being closed? (ties in slightly with question 2)
4. If something has been said in a closed thread, how do we measure the point at which it can/can't be used or is likely to be policed, and why? Is it a full post, a paragraph, a sentence? What about an idea?
The reason I ask these questions, is that I felt the post in question deserved airing in its own right. It made some very valid points and actually conveyed a loss of something, rather than the much repeated 'its broke, fix it' DR threads, that remain in circulation. And while some things can be churned over and over again, somethings cant, and I really dont understand the logic or reasoning behind those choices. But, done is done and I've had more time to think and less time in game.
The original post certainly made me look at the current state of the game from a different perspective, it made me question the reason behind my subscription, other than my need to maintain as little change as possible, that in turn made me question my continued financial support to a system that seems to have lost something important.
Truth be told, I would love to walk away from this game, I really would! Sadly, this game means far more to me, than i do to it. It is literally my window on the world, a social hub, an escape from these 4 walls and a bolster to my sanity. The game doesnt judge, though some players might, it cares not that i am socially awkward, or that i make the occasional funny noises. It doesnt laugh at me twitch throwing my mouse across the desk, or dropping things, or swearing noisily when i get hit with cramps, and it doesnt try to finish my sentences when im lost for words or get stuck in a vowel, oh and I can shut it down in an instant without any drama.
I am not alone here, there are many people like me, a minority within a minority. I have been repeatedly told.. If you dont like it, go play something else.. meh, no one is forcing you to play.. Ha, only a fool keeps coming back to play something they say is broken.. and they are all correct, i really can't argue with that logic, but for me, it is 1 thing to know a thing, and another thing entirely to be able to act on it.
The emotional pull from the original post did help me reasses things, my game time will now be greatly reduced, someone mentioned to me earlier, its about finding the parts of the game that you still enjoy, and well, winter event approaches, and i do enjoy that. I also decided to cancel my subscription, ok so its no game breaker and 'it' wont care, but it actually felt good and the right thing to do. I will happily resub if they get the game back in balance, you never know, stranger things have happened.
The following describes the kind of information or post my underlying questions relate to. It isnt inflamatary or derisive in any way, and it doesnt contain any direct information from a post, so as not to incur any problems.
So, I'm reading through an old closed thread, it contains the usual kinds of comments, some reasoned, some irrational, some full of bile, some removed by mods and some a little off the wall. Towards the last pages I see a single post that sits somewhat out of place, in reality holding only a modest hint of relavence to the original Topic, in as much as the thread asked how, and this post replied what. But, it did sum up pretty effectively, just what this game means to some people. There was no anger in this post, no real sense of bitterness, it was an honest, sincere account of an individuals experience with the game. If the post had legs it would be simply trudging through the forums. It was that sense of weary resignation that really grabbed my attention and struck an emotional chord.
1. At what reasonable point should information, or a post, from a closed thread, become permissable for questioning, evaluating, or referencing?
2. When looking though threads, old and new alike, how are we to define what should be included or used for a new topic? Is it simply a matter changing some words here and there? Do we need to modify the context? Can you think of a reason why we should need to?
3. What if the post, paragraph, or sentence was originally deemed fit for a thread and wasnt the reason behind the thread being closed? (ties in slightly with question 2)
4. If something has been said in a closed thread, how do we measure the point at which it can/can't be used or is likely to be policed, and why? Is it a full post, a paragraph, a sentence? What about an idea?
The reason I ask these questions, is that I felt the post in question deserved airing in its own right. It made some very valid points and actually conveyed a loss of something, rather than the much repeated 'its broke, fix it' DR threads, that remain in circulation. And while some things can be churned over and over again, somethings cant, and I really dont understand the logic or reasoning behind those choices. But, done is done and I've had more time to think and less time in game.
The original post certainly made me look at the current state of the game from a different perspective, it made me question the reason behind my subscription, other than my need to maintain as little change as possible, that in turn made me question my continued financial support to a system that seems to have lost something important.
Truth be told, I would love to walk away from this game, I really would! Sadly, this game means far more to me, than i do to it. It is literally my window on the world, a social hub, an escape from these 4 walls and a bolster to my sanity. The game doesnt judge, though some players might, it cares not that i am socially awkward, or that i make the occasional funny noises. It doesnt laugh at me twitch throwing my mouse across the desk, or dropping things, or swearing noisily when i get hit with cramps, and it doesnt try to finish my sentences when im lost for words or get stuck in a vowel, oh and I can shut it down in an instant without any drama.
I am not alone here, there are many people like me, a minority within a minority. I have been repeatedly told.. If you dont like it, go play something else.. meh, no one is forcing you to play.. Ha, only a fool keeps coming back to play something they say is broken.. and they are all correct, i really can't argue with that logic, but for me, it is 1 thing to know a thing, and another thing entirely to be able to act on it.
The emotional pull from the original post did help me reasses things, my game time will now be greatly reduced, someone mentioned to me earlier, its about finding the parts of the game that you still enjoy, and well, winter event approaches, and i do enjoy that. I also decided to cancel my subscription, ok so its no game breaker and 'it' wont care, but it actually felt good and the right thing to do. I will happily resub if they get the game back in balance, you never know, stranger things have happened.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Post edited by kamble on
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This discussion has been closed.
Comments
It depends entirely on context, the quote referenced, and whether or not it contributed to the closing of the thread.
I have often repeated myself throughout my time on the forums, with some of my comments no doubt finding their way into closed threads.
However, if a thread is closed and the comment in question could be reasonably tied to the closing of that thread, then in my opinion it serves no other purpose but to close yet another thread.
As always, it depends on context. There is relevant information tied to multiple forum threads with no common ground other than the fact they regard Star Trek Online. If another thread has a similar topic, I think it is fair game to use said comments.
In my opinion, if a topic is that big of an issue, then the only logical and fair solution is to simply create the same thread time after time and hope the commentary stays civil and on topic to the point it doesn't get closed.
A good example is the "What's your beef with the Galaxy?" thread. Askray simply created a new thread once the old one was closed, and urged civility and respect in that thread. If that thread gets closed? The issue of the Galaxy won't go away, therefore a new one will be created.
Threads are often closed not due to the topic, but due to violations of the TOS that result in the rest of the thread. Obviously there are exceptions such as the FCT list which is there to focus on new ideas and new conversation.
Obviously if the thread topic itself is a violation of the TOS, then no, it is not suggested to create a new topic based on that.
As already said, there are comments and opinions that span the entire width and breadth of Star Trek Online. Closed threads and opened threads. Archived threads and threads that have yet to be created.
If the comment is not related to the closing of the thread, in my opinion it is fair game for new discussion.
There are no thought police in the STO forums. It relies entirely on the idea of whether or not commentary violates the forum TOS, the Frequently-Created Threads, or what have you.
If you can tread the line carefully enough, you can likely have a thread about anything. Posters only have themselves to blame if the thread gets closed despite the OP's civil and respectful intentions.
Oftentimes, the OP is not at fault for a thread being closed (again, outside of obvious situations such as I Quit threads or any other type of thread that starts with a TOS violation).
If the post deserves special merit, is not in violation of the TOS, or Frequently-Created Thread, then I see no difference between that and any other thread or topic generated anew.
The STO forums will always get new ideas and rehashed old ideas. There is a spectrum of acceptable and unacceptable ideas. And Star Trek Online is (like most video games) the type of game that invites passionate opinions, and shared common ground.
Smirk, Trendy, Bluegeek, Askray... any of the mods, really. They've not shown a particular bias against posts being rehashed in the forums, unless of course it violates the forum rules. I do not think any of them care too terribly much to cross-reference posts/threads to other posts/threads. And I don't think any other forum poster cares either.
It's as simple as "Violate the rules? Thread closed. Try again with a less volatile thread."
It's trial and error. Keep creating the same thread closure after closure, or people smarten up and decide to hold a civil and respectful dialogue. If it continues to degenerate into hostility and vitriol, it will just get closed.
That doesn't mean you can't talk about it, per se, it just means the people in the thread have decided to ruin their chance at meaningful communication.
HOW does that make sense? In short, it was moderated because it was "negative" commentary and no white knights were around to take over the discussion.
In short, the moderator said "You can't post anything related to what's already been posted, and you can't post in closed necro threads, so stop posting, ever, in any way, again."
Mind you, they let everything slide for the gushing white knights of Cryptic (TM, Patent Pending).
You should have noticed the draconian mutings that happened when DR wasn't "the best release ever" according to the forums. People got muted and lost all posting privs for less than the recent post the OP refers to.
learn to read, say nothing and move on. ANYTHING can be construed as a violation of the TOS.
Awoken Dead
Now shaddup about the queues, it's a BUG
Iconians,
Thank you for taking the time to strip all that down for me. It is, pretty much how I was thinking things should be, i'm feeling far less confused and a damn sight better prepared now.
Rodentmaster,
Just when I go to put away my tinfoil hat, thinking that all is fine in the Universe.. There you are, dishing out the tooth and showing me that there really is no place like my 'tinfoil lined' Dome
Savik - Vulcan Fed Temporal Sci
Dahar Masters Fleet: Alphal'Fa - Alien KDF Engineer Qun'pau - Rom/KDF Engineer D'nesh - Orion KDF Scientist Ghen'khan - Liberated KDF Tac
Welcome to StarBug Online - to boldly Bug where no bug has been before!
STO player since November 2013
It's mission, to destroy new worlds and civilizations
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
And to boldly ruin, what no one has ruined before.
Thats pretty much how I'm feeling at the moment, we seem to be experiencing a lot of lip service and condesention, and that particualr party line gets very old, very fast. The difficult part is knowing who to point the big spoon of blame at, not that that would make any real difference, and while I'm sure there are many valid, logical arguments regarding that particular question, it wont be a who it'll be a thing, which is very likely something we will never find out for sure. I think the sensible thing is to avoid the forums, very unhealthy place to be be wondering around at the moment, but that being said, It is the only way to keep current with whats going on, even if it is detremental to health, and 2nd hand information is so 'not' 1st hand.
I read that as Palpatine and thought "Great word!" also on topic.
Give me the fun back please.
Free Tibet!
Fun? in STO? Surely you jest! (And if you do, expect to be cracked down on for jesting)
I support that jest...
Sometimes that hammer looks to be swung on the flip of a coin, and then at other times you can see a very rational reason for the thump! Regardless of the 'we are impartial' line, there is definately some political skew, even some positive discrimination thrown in to the pot too, especially when they start to ignore the intent behind the statement and just focus on the wording, calling it safe, carry on! But, it is a privately owned forum so I guess that goes with the territory...
lol, now that is sig worthy
Modstaff needs to take a step back and let people express their opinions and have fun. Of course that will NEVER happen this game is not about fun anymore it's about making profit, playing to corporate standards and conforming to PWE expectations.
The forum rules are public and in every forum on here. You can be as critical about cryptic or pwe as you want, as long as those rules are followed. If not then yes, expect us to step in.
Former Community Moderator, Former SSR DJ, Now Full time father to two kids, Husband, Retail Worker.
Tiktok: @Askray Facebook: Askray113
Former Community Moderator, Former SSR DJ, Now Full time father to two kids, Husband, Retail Worker.
Tiktok: @Askray Facebook: Askray113
There was a thread. Said thread consisted of a series of posts: A -> B -> C -> D -> E -> CLOSED
kamble pulled out one post (say, D) and started a thread in direct response to it.
Whatever merit you may subjectively apply to that post, however long it has been, is completely irrelevant. You continued the discussion, effectively sidestepping the thread closure. That is obviously not allowed.
The way I see it, the same topic can be discussed from multiple perspectives, directions or rationale. This can happen within a single thread or multiple threads. If someone looks at, or acts upon something differently, feeling that a particular direction or observation hasnt been considered, should it matter where the source of that process starts. Just because an individual references or uses a post from a closed thread for the basis for a new thread, should it automatically be modhammered?
Dont get me wrong, if the new thread instigates a riot or flaming then yeah fine i can see the point in closing it down, but closing lines of communication down for nothing other than 'that post was pulled from that closed thread' is pretty weak. I wouldnt like to try and count the number of new threads that spring up that are just the same as the last thread, change the words, pick a new angle and all is golden, yet intent and context remain the same, sheesh, half the comments and posters are almost copy-paste, yet they remain.
hypothetical question..
why would a simple, calm, rational thread, expressing dissatisfaction referencing a dead post to express an opinion from an alternative perspective be closed? yet a repeat, scathing, argumentative, often irrational thread, with multiple modded posts be allowed to run for a duration?
hypothetical answer..
because pwe/cryptic cant point at the rational thread and say 'see, crazy folk.. dont know what they are talking about, they are just trolls and should be ignored'
I get that this is a private forum and at the end of the day we are just guests here, but when the above kind of thing occurs it is irritating to put it mildly. It isnt the rules that bother me, it is the way you guys get to twist them to meet whatever agenda.
Askray* I'm being kicked of the computer by my daughter so will need to pick this up later too
False. He began a discussion using a reference from a thread that was ONLY closed because it was old. It wasn't moderated nor was it "shut down".
In short he was told not to post about things that have already been posted simply because the thread wasn't gushing and flowing with praise for Cryptic.
And the moderators may not be able to "ban" but they sure as hell have underhanded tricks to prevent people from adding anything to the forum if they want.
Hardly. I personally don't care if its criticism towards pwe or cryptic, or if its high praise, if its not violating the rules or the fct we're golden and it won't be moderated. If its something along the lines of
"You're idiots doing this wrong you should do this" then yeah odds are it will wind up being moderated.
This thread, as some pointed out, should be closed because its discussing moderation which is true. However, it's being somewhat civil so I'm willing to let it go for a few. Plus hitting the close button on my phone is a pain :P
Former Community Moderator, Former SSR DJ, Now Full time father to two kids, Husband, Retail Worker.
Tiktok: @Askray Facebook: Askray113
A discussion was started based on a single post from a long thread, but it wasnt the same discussion by any account. The original thread was asking cryptic a question, the post used by kamble was stating a simple opinion, that opinion resulting in a thread being opened to discuss other aspects and implications of what this game means to some people, for example escapism, emotional connection etc.. totally different thing.
actually i think thats the point of this thread.. using something as a reference isnt neccesarily creating a continuation of something that has already been done. like i said, the rules are applied based on opinion.. opinion... see that there is the issue, what exactly motivates that opinion, or who?
If its the thread I'm thinking of (which again I'm on my phone so its not like I can easily check) it was reposting of a post from a closed thread to continue discussion on that post. That's not allowed as it would be basically continuing the discussion of a closed thread.
Former Community Moderator, Former SSR DJ, Now Full time father to two kids, Husband, Retail Worker.
Tiktok: @Askray Facebook: Askray113
Former Community Moderator, Former SSR DJ, Now Full time father to two kids, Husband, Retail Worker.
Tiktok: @Askray Facebook: Askray113
I'm pretty sure it wasnt continuing the discussion of the closed thread, it was discussing what that particular post represented. the original thread was discussing how to word complaints and critisim to cryptic, the new thread was discussing what the game means to different people using that post as an example.. where the original thread was a thunderstorm directed at cryptic, the other was a coffee morning.