Incidentally, my solution to all of this, to stay constructive, would be:
The ability to clone character bound copies of gear at a discounted price.
The ability to change the energy type of a console bonus or a weapon at a very affordable price.
These two put together would revive multiple builds.
I upgrade an AP set to Mk XIV UR.
I dupe a fully character-bound copy for far less than upgrading a second set.
I modify the energy type of the duped copy at an affordable price.
Cryptic still gets the economic impact of me upgrading to Mk XIV in the first place. And if I want a torpedo boat or a mine boat, maybe I have to do it all over again.
This would probably result in more people upgrading at least one set to Mk XIV. And it would see more people begin duping/modding copies of their Mk XIV set in different flavors at a price people would actually pay.
Well first, you don't actually need to upgrade gear. If you do upgrade anything, I recommend things that you already use on multiple builds. This should be obvious, your resources are valuable so don't waste them if you want to use multiple builds. You can still grab gear from story missions and do pretty well.
Before DR, I could try out different rep sets for fun. At worst it was a side-grade, at best I found something I really liked (like Biomolecular disruptors from CC rep). Now... I upgrade one set of gear to XIV, and the best case from trying something new is still a downgrade.
The should have updated the fleet and rep stores with Mk XIV. I'd buy new gear. I've bought new gear a lot. Asking me to buy new gear then upgrade it... no thanks. Even if the dil cost of upgrading isn't unreasonable, the cost becomes ridiculous once you factor in the upgrade kits, too.
Microtransactions out the wazoo on the one hand, discouragement from spending on the other.
I honestly don't see how this is much different than before. Pre-DR, you'd still be locking yourself into certain builds, buying specific Tac consoles to boost your chosen weapon types; and really finalizing it before investing in Fleet Consoles. Which isn't a cheap or casual investment unless you were a major spender and could just fund all fleet projects on your own.
Unfortunately, the upgrade system is not tied to new contents. It's tied to a generic resource pool we had before. EC, R&D mats (or more EC) and dil. Whereas others MMO have new content as new "resources" for "upgrading" someone's gear. For example in WoW or Lotro, or Rift, you have to run the new raid/dungeon for the new gear. It's new, it's fresh, and upgrading is part of playing the new content.
Do I have upgrade item from doing borg disconnected or bug hunt ? No. I have delta marks and delta rep related resources, which is another grind.
The upgrade system ask me to grind AROUND my "novelty" grind (in this case, Delta rep, but I'm pretty sure new rep will come). It's a grind around the grind.
And if it wasn't enough, it's totally random for the most part, adding more grind (unless you are lucky).
I was looking at a new build today but with my whole ship being MK XIV now the prospect of changing to another weapon type and get a whole new set of gear etc has put me off. might aswell bring back player skills that increase specific weapon types.
Before DR, I could try out different rep sets for fun. At worst it was a side-grade, at best I found something I really liked (like Biomolecular disruptors from CC rep). Now... I upgrade one set of gear to XIV, and the best case from trying something new is still a downgrade.
The should have updated the fleet and rep stores with Mk XIV. I'd buy new gear. I've bought new gear a lot. Asking me to buy new gear then upgrade it... no thanks. Even if the dil cost of upgrading isn't unreasonable, the cost becomes ridiculous once you factor in the upgrade kits, too.
Microtransactions out the wazoo on the one hand, discouragement from spending on the other.
sums up my feelings completely. this is a big issue imho.
I just, you know, did the sensible thing and didn't fall for this dil sink upgrade and crafting nonsense.
I've just recently changed build and ship with no negative consequences. I even bought a few more items to broaden my options. Its amazing, game is far more fun not being a sucker for the awful practices introduced in DR.
"If you can't take a little bloody nose, maybe you ought to go back home and crawl under your bed. It's not safe out here. It's wondrous, with treasures to satiate desires both subtle and gross. But it's not for the timid." Q Join the 44th Fleet. [FED and KDF] Apply Online: startrek.44thfleet.com
I will probably never upgrade my weapons to 14. 13 was doable for my canons and dual beam banks. I don't have beam arrays that I like well enough to upgrade yet.
I plan taking a number of my consoles to 14 since they are cheaper and span multiple builds, but even those are already at 13 and I may never upgraded them further. I just don't spend enough time in game to bother with it ATM.
I have no problem upgrading the gear on 2 ships per character, oh I will take a good few months but that's ok.
it helps that all the gear I am upgrading is mk12 rare & very rare and I am only going up to mk14
so that's only 2 upgrade steps per item, I am near half done already so its all going well.
then of course I can still mix it up a bit if I feel like it, I mean when the best gear was mark12 most of my ships had a mix of mk10 mk11 mk12 anyway just because I now have some mk14 doesn't mean I cant still mix it up a bit.
then again I can always do a strait swap and put my mk14 stuff on any ship I please.
I don't feel at all locked into anything.
When I think about everything we've been through together,
maybe it's not the destination that matters, maybe it's the journey,
and if that journey takes a little longer,
so we can do something we all believe in,
I can't think of any place I'd rather be or any people I'd rather be with.
A single rep Shield is, what, 318,000 for one upgrade round? That's 64 (!) Improved Tech upgrades (= 5,760,000 mil EC, and 62k Dilithium). And only for 1 round, with absolutely no guarantee of an actual quality upgrade! So, multiply those numbers x5, and maybe, just maybe, you got it to Ultra Rare. And that's only for your 1 Shield.
Ok so I'm trying to understand your math here, 1 Improved Tech Upgrade costs 7,500 ec.
So 7,500 x 64 = 480000ec. So where you are getting a figure of over 5 mil is beyond me.
The increases from 12 to 13 are not huge but once you jump up to 14 there is a very sizable improvement to move items. Weapons in particular you 're probably looking at double the damage increase going from 13>14 compared to what it was in any other upgrade.
So the improvements are worth doing, the real killer is the sheer cost though.
Most people simply can;t afford to upgrade more than one item a month, and epic quility is just a pipe dream to most of us.
Why? Why are you stuck with 1 ship and 1 build? You can still switch equipment to different ships. And its not like you're actually stuck with what you upgrade. After you get your primary build set up the way you want, use it to build up more resources and try something else. Find another build that seems to work well for you and start upgrading the gear for that. It only takes about 2 weeks to upgrade every single item on your ship anyway, provided you have the dilithium and ec on hand, and I can guarantee that, with exchange prices soaring as they are, most of you already have ec to spare. If you're so convinced that this is where the fun stops, then why are you still here?
Just started upgrading gear, and it's sad that the cost and time to upgrade really seems to effectively lock me into a build choice.
One of the most fun things I really liked about STO when I joined was the ease with which i could change/text/experiment. I can still to some extent, but it seems much more limited and much less fun.
I think STO will eventually learn that their success is going to be based on the widest, broadest appeal...as other MMO's have learned...
THIS^^^
Why do they think we ran those endless stf's....not because we were still engaged after the 10,000th run of ISE, but because we could try different things, different fits, and had a wide choice of options to feed our creativity. Since no game can provide enough content to keep us perpetually in new experiences....it is having many creative options with our ships and gear that will keep us entertained. No one can run the same build in the same instances over and over again without getting intensely bored. Yet the upgrade system among other things provides a punative incentive to do just that.
Bottom line, they took the modular, creative aspects of this game and killed it with this expansion. Speaking only for myself, I am not sure how long STO will hold my interest without the ability to mix and match my gear as I did before.
In m opinion, you don't NEED to upgrade requipment. I just finished leveling up one of my main characters. His main ship is the Odyssey which IO upgrade to T5-U. But the rest of his gear is just Reputation Mk 12 gear and Advanced Fleet Phasers and old Mk XI Dilitium Quantum Torps. His ground is is Mk XIi MACO and a Mk 10 AP Carbine (which I will be upgrading to Mk 12 because I WANT to. It's my favorite weapon). And I've been rocking all of the DR content and beyond on Advanced. I haven't really had any problems with anything. I haven't core breached one. And on the ground it's just due to being overwhemed with spawns.
If you want to upgrade gear, I think the best things would be Ship consoles especially those that Myy advice. you have multiples of. Tactica consoels will get teh most bang (literally) for the buck. And for any special bit of gear that you WANT to upgrade like the Cocharan Shotgun.
Whether the reason for the extreme dil cost for all the dil sinks was to get as much dil out of the game as soon as possible, or not is not important. What is important is the fact that when they change something in the game that doesn't work to bring in, or keep players, they hang on to it for far too long. Like the think that by ignoring the situation will make players forget about the problems, and come back.
Now some cry "Entitlement" when players voice their concerns, or problems with the game. However, there is something to keep in mind. We (the players) are nothing more than customers, and the game is the product. When the product doesn't work how you thought it would, it is changed after investing in it, or you are disappointed with it, and say nothing, then you accept whatever you are given, regardless.
Some players like, or have no problem with the extreme cost of dil, and can afford it, or have no problem with the game being nothing but a grind game. And that is fine.
But the fact that the number of players are getting lower in the game is not an indication that all is well. The fewer players in the game = less money going into the game. This means that the game is making less money.
Now, with the current track record, this means that their solution will most likely be to add another huge dil sink, or another grind. They are so determined to stick to the current way of changing their product that they don't care what players find enjoyable.
There is a saying, "Pride is before a fall." If a current way of doing business is not working, and is hurting income, then it is sometimes best to find out what your customers want to keep them buying, or using your product. Then, be willing to compromise. This doesn't mean to give in, but to find some middle ground.
If the problem is too much grind, lessen is some, but don't take it away, or make it harder. If it is the extreme cost of dil, then reduce it enough to make a difference, instead of removing it completely.
And if it is that the advanced difficulty is too hard for most average players, then make it so that missions will reward BNP, CI, etc. Honestly, the rep systems are setup in a way that makes no sense. But that is a different issue all together.
Till the developers are willing to pay attention to what their customers are telling them about their product, there will be no compromise where it is needed, and things will keep going in this direction.
Leader of Elite Guardian Academy.Would you like to learn how to run a fleet? Would you like to know how to do ship builds (true budget as well as high end)?The join the Academy today!
its not that bad upgrading, its only dil & ec and if you play the right content that rewards dil I cant see what the problem is.
there have been people screaming for ages for a higher refine rate because they can so easy get more then 8k dil a day but in my opinion 8k a day is plenty to upgrade one item 1 step every 2-3 days.
and if you make sure and pick up all the game drops you only need to stuff them into the replicator and recycle them for ec.
and when a dil weekend comes around you can make more dil then ever, I still have about 100k on each of my characters from the last one waiting to be refined.
sure its not going to be an overnight job upgrading but if you can upgrade just 1 item per character from mk12 to mk14 a week you will get there in the end.
I only started to upgrade existing gear just after DR launched but I am well on my way to finishing upgrading the gear on one ship and a ground set on each of my 3 character.
as many have said pre existing gear is fine for the most part and that is very true but there is nothing stopping us from upgrading the stuff we want to as and when we have the means to do so.
in my opinion its great to pop in a mk12 rare or very rare item into the upgrader and have it come out as mk13 rare or very rare and then a few days later repeat the process to mk14 rare or very rare and if you are lucky and get a boost to rarity along the way then that's just a bonus.
it may well take me 6 months or even a year to upgrade all the stuff I want to but im in no rush.
When I think about everything we've been through together,
maybe it's not the destination that matters, maybe it's the journey,
and if that journey takes a little longer,
so we can do something we all believe in,
I can't think of any place I'd rather be or any people I'd rather be with.
Ok so I'm trying to understand your math here, 1 Improved Tech Upgrade costs 7,500 ec.
So 7,500 x 64 = 480000ec. So where you are getting a figure of over 5 mil is beyond me.
Wait, wut?! 7,500 EC?! All Improved Techs I find are between ca. 60,000 - 90,000 EC a pop.
Unless you're talking about crafting them yourself; but that costs too (if, for nothing else, in opportunity cost: you could have sold them for 60,000 each :P)
I thought you were referring to creature kills like when you kill a spider and it drops a bottle of Chateau Picard and you think to yourself wonder where a spider would pick up a bottle of Chateau Picard or how it would even get the cork out to drink it.
or even when you kill a klingon targ and it drops a phaser riffle and you think 'ooh gun totin pork, that's not something you see every day'.
When I think about everything we've been through together,
maybe it's not the destination that matters, maybe it's the journey,
and if that journey takes a little longer,
so we can do something we all believe in,
I can't think of any place I'd rather be or any people I'd rather be with.
This only locks you into a build if you let yourself believe you need to get to the "End" of the grind. Treat it as it is, something to always look forward to. and something the whales can go crazy and keep the game running pushing cash into the game.
I set a goal of getting my gear to MkIV, MKIII on stuff I might switch around. But the important stuff all MKIV. as time goes by it will all be MKIV. It's if you think everything needs to be "Epic" then fine, lock yourself into one build.
But, all MMO's I ever played had slower leveling then STO, and about the same always grinding and slowly getting gear upgraded to max. At least in this one that gear doesn't break and dissapear on a fail so you can start over with a MK I-V.
The game needed both gear and something to use XP on at end game. Specializations do that. Just play, have fun, the Xp will come. If you need all the best top end right now for PVP.....find another game. PVP is the only draw back to all this.
Well and thinking you need to top some DPS leaderboard.
If a reasonable average player has 3 characters (Tac, Eng, Sci) and on each has 3 ships (BCR/ DN/C /DDE) that will require 9 sets to be upgraded. This is not possible no matter how you put it.
I would love to be able to run a different loadout for PVP and one for PVE queues. But I also like playing around with builds, even trying to get my old Oberth to do minmax damage. But I honestly have stopped playing entirely lately. So I guess here is my question:
Has anyone figured out the best place to upgrade to, so as not to waste resources, but still get good improvements? Is MkXIV really necessary or should I stop at XIII? Should I be maximizing for quality improvement or just get high mark and be happy if there is any quality upgrade along the way? I honestly don't know what the sweet spot is or best method to get there yet.
I guess I just want to know on the curve for marginal stat improvement vs. marginal cost, where am I starting to plateau? It seems to me Mk XIII UR is usually best, but this may not be universally true.
+1
Upgrading more sets to MK14 is suicide, unless u have 1 bil EC on stock and 1mil + dil.
I don't entirely disagree with your sentiment, but I do think you are exaggerating.
If you level up your Science, Engineering, and Shield R&D schools to 15, then it does not cost anywhere near as much dilithium.
Between two characters, I have managed to level Science, Engineering, Shields, and Beams to 15. Now I can craft the upgrade tech to upgrade my space sets relatively cheaply.
The only real difficulty is in getting Argonite Gas, which is locked behind some difficult-to-pug missions.
Comments
The ability to clone character bound copies of gear at a discounted price.
The ability to change the energy type of a console bonus or a weapon at a very affordable price.
These two put together would revive multiple builds.
I upgrade an AP set to Mk XIV UR.
I dupe a fully character-bound copy for far less than upgrading a second set.
I modify the energy type of the duped copy at an affordable price.
Cryptic still gets the economic impact of me upgrading to Mk XIV in the first place. And if I want a torpedo boat or a mine boat, maybe I have to do it all over again.
This would probably result in more people upgrading at least one set to Mk XIV. And it would see more people begin duping/modding copies of their Mk XIV set in different flavors at a price people would actually pay.
The should have updated the fleet and rep stores with Mk XIV. I'd buy new gear. I've bought new gear a lot. Asking me to buy new gear then upgrade it... no thanks. Even if the dil cost of upgrading isn't unreasonable, the cost becomes ridiculous once you factor in the upgrade kits, too.
Microtransactions out the wazoo on the one hand, discouragement from spending on the other.
Do I have upgrade item from doing borg disconnected or bug hunt ? No. I have delta marks and delta rep related resources, which is another grind.
The upgrade system ask me to grind AROUND my "novelty" grind (in this case, Delta rep, but I'm pretty sure new rep will come). It's a grind around the grind.
And if it wasn't enough, it's totally random for the most part, adding more grind (unless you are lucky).
sums up my feelings completely. this is a big issue imho.
I've just recently changed build and ship with no negative consequences. I even bought a few more items to broaden my options. Its amazing, game is far more fun not being a sucker for the awful practices introduced in DR.
This is of concern.
Join the 44th Fleet. [FED and KDF] Apply Online: startrek.44thfleet.com
I plan taking a number of my consoles to 14 since they are cheaper and span multiple builds, but even those are already at 13 and I may never upgraded them further. I just don't spend enough time in game to bother with it ATM.
it helps that all the gear I am upgrading is mk12 rare & very rare and I am only going up to mk14
so that's only 2 upgrade steps per item, I am near half done already so its all going well.
then of course I can still mix it up a bit if I feel like it, I mean when the best gear was mark12 most of my ships had a mix of mk10 mk11 mk12 anyway just because I now have some mk14 doesn't mean I cant still mix it up a bit.
then again I can always do a strait swap and put my mk14 stuff on any ship I please.
I don't feel at all locked into anything.
When I think about everything we've been through together,
maybe it's not the destination that matters, maybe it's the journey,
and if that journey takes a little longer,
so we can do something we all believe in,
I can't think of any place I'd rather be or any people I'd rather be with.
I lock each character into an energy type for the most part.
So the improvements are worth doing, the real killer is the sheer cost though.
Most people simply can;t afford to upgrade more than one item a month, and epic quility is just a pipe dream to most of us.
Well, for starters, 1 improved tech actually costs about 10x that amount.
Didn't one of the Cryptic people say that Cold weapons were a failed experiment, and shouldn't even have been on tribble?
THIS^^^
Why do they think we ran those endless stf's....not because we were still engaged after the 10,000th run of ISE, but because we could try different things, different fits, and had a wide choice of options to feed our creativity. Since no game can provide enough content to keep us perpetually in new experiences....it is having many creative options with our ships and gear that will keep us entertained. No one can run the same build in the same instances over and over again without getting intensely bored. Yet the upgrade system among other things provides a punative incentive to do just that.
Bottom line, they took the modular, creative aspects of this game and killed it with this expansion. Speaking only for myself, I am not sure how long STO will hold my interest without the ability to mix and match my gear as I did before.
If you want to upgrade gear, I think the best things would be Ship consoles especially those that Myy advice. you have multiples of. Tactica consoels will get teh most bang (literally) for the buck. And for any special bit of gear that you WANT to upgrade like the Cocharan Shotgun.
Now some cry "Entitlement" when players voice their concerns, or problems with the game. However, there is something to keep in mind. We (the players) are nothing more than customers, and the game is the product. When the product doesn't work how you thought it would, it is changed after investing in it, or you are disappointed with it, and say nothing, then you accept whatever you are given, regardless.
Some players like, or have no problem with the extreme cost of dil, and can afford it, or have no problem with the game being nothing but a grind game. And that is fine.
But the fact that the number of players are getting lower in the game is not an indication that all is well. The fewer players in the game = less money going into the game. This means that the game is making less money.
Now, with the current track record, this means that their solution will most likely be to add another huge dil sink, or another grind. They are so determined to stick to the current way of changing their product that they don't care what players find enjoyable.
There is a saying, "Pride is before a fall." If a current way of doing business is not working, and is hurting income, then it is sometimes best to find out what your customers want to keep them buying, or using your product. Then, be willing to compromise. This doesn't mean to give in, but to find some middle ground.
If the problem is too much grind, lessen is some, but don't take it away, or make it harder. If it is the extreme cost of dil, then reduce it enough to make a difference, instead of removing it completely.
And if it is that the advanced difficulty is too hard for most average players, then make it so that missions will reward BNP, CI, etc. Honestly, the rep systems are setup in a way that makes no sense. But that is a different issue all together.
Till the developers are willing to pay attention to what their customers are telling them about their product, there will be no compromise where it is needed, and things will keep going in this direction.
there have been people screaming for ages for a higher refine rate because they can so easy get more then 8k dil a day but in my opinion 8k a day is plenty to upgrade one item 1 step every 2-3 days.
and if you make sure and pick up all the game drops you only need to stuff them into the replicator and recycle them for ec.
and when a dil weekend comes around you can make more dil then ever, I still have about 100k on each of my characters from the last one waiting to be refined.
sure its not going to be an overnight job upgrading but if you can upgrade just 1 item per character from mk12 to mk14 a week you will get there in the end.
I only started to upgrade existing gear just after DR launched but I am well on my way to finishing upgrading the gear on one ship and a ground set on each of my 3 character.
as many have said pre existing gear is fine for the most part and that is very true but there is nothing stopping us from upgrading the stuff we want to as and when we have the means to do so.
in my opinion its great to pop in a mk12 rare or very rare item into the upgrader and have it come out as mk13 rare or very rare and then a few days later repeat the process to mk14 rare or very rare and if you are lucky and get a boost to rarity along the way then that's just a bonus.
it may well take me 6 months or even a year to upgrade all the stuff I want to but im in no rush.
When I think about everything we've been through together,
maybe it's not the destination that matters, maybe it's the journey,
and if that journey takes a little longer,
so we can do something we all believe in,
I can't think of any place I'd rather be or any people I'd rather be with.
Wait, wut?! 7,500 EC?! All Improved Techs I find are between ca. 60,000 - 90,000 EC a pop.
Unless you're talking about crafting them yourself; but that costs too (if, for nothing else, in opportunity cost: you could have sold them for 60,000 each :P)
or even when you kill a klingon targ and it drops a phaser riffle and you think 'ooh gun totin pork, that's not something you see every day'.
When I think about everything we've been through together,
maybe it's not the destination that matters, maybe it's the journey,
and if that journey takes a little longer,
so we can do something we all believe in,
I can't think of any place I'd rather be or any people I'd rather be with.
I set a goal of getting my gear to MkIV, MKIII on stuff I might switch around. But the important stuff all MKIV. as time goes by it will all be MKIV. It's if you think everything needs to be "Epic" then fine, lock yourself into one build.
But, all MMO's I ever played had slower leveling then STO, and about the same always grinding and slowly getting gear upgraded to max. At least in this one that gear doesn't break and dissapear on a fail so you can start over with a MK I-V.
The game needed both gear and something to use XP on at end game. Specializations do that. Just play, have fun, the Xp will come. If you need all the best top end right now for PVP.....find another game. PVP is the only draw back to all this.
Well and thinking you need to top some DPS leaderboard.
Then I owe you my gratitude.
See this, Cryptic?! Not everyone is greedy to the bone.
Has anyone figured out the best place to upgrade to, so as not to waste resources, but still get good improvements? Is MkXIV really necessary or should I stop at XIII? Should I be maximizing for quality improvement or just get high mark and be happy if there is any quality upgrade along the way? I honestly don't know what the sweet spot is or best method to get there yet.
I guess I just want to know on the curve for marginal stat improvement vs. marginal cost, where am I starting to plateau? It seems to me Mk XIII UR is usually best, but this may not be universally true.
I don't entirely disagree with your sentiment, but I do think you are exaggerating.
If you level up your Science, Engineering, and Shield R&D schools to 15, then it does not cost anywhere near as much dilithium.
Between two characters, I have managed to level Science, Engineering, Shields, and Beams to 15. Now I can craft the upgrade tech to upgrade my space sets relatively cheaply.
The only real difficulty is in getting Argonite Gas, which is locked behind some difficult-to-pug missions.