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Are you still complaining about the grind/costs/etc?
therealhippo
Member Posts: 37 Arc User
It's not often I start a thread such as this, but I wanted to put a couple of points across to those still complaining about the injustice of it all.
1. Ship upgrades
There have been numerous posts where people complain about the cost of upgrading a ship they have already bought, whether it be the T5U upgrade or the T4/T5/T5U/T6 path.
All you bought was the ability to unlock the item, as it was, as that time. Its a digital item that, depending on the ToS of PWE, you may not even actually own. Lots of gaming companies retain ownership of all items within the game, hence why it is against the ToS to sell your account, as you don't own it anyway.
Complaining about not getting free upgrades or having to pay to upgrade a ship you already own is akin to asking to see the same movie at the cinema again and again, just because you bought a ticket once.
2. The Grind
I'm not going to break it to you gently here. ALL MMO titles are grind. You invest time, you are given progression as a result. You play, you level, you increase your abilities through gear.
STO is no different in that matter. We have just had a major level cap increase after several years without one. Take your time in levelling, THERE IS NO RUSH. You don't need everything now!
We have a good gear upgrade system in place. Again the costs are not over the top, not when you look at it logically. How much time did you spend grinding out all your equipment to XII. All the STF's you ran. All the Fleet projects you helped. All the dilithium you spent. I'll wager that the cost of all that is similar to the cost to upgrade items to the same rarity XIV.
Yes there is the ability to upgrade to EPIC. But you dont need that now, do it a little every day. If you are at the stage where you have a full set of XIV, upgrade one item a day, do it a little at a time.
This also leads on to specialisations. This is something that is meant to be achieved over time. Just play the game normally, as you did before DR and the points will come.
3. The Bugs
This is something where I'm in agreement with the rest of the community. There are so many awful bugs with everything introduced with DR. Some of those have been fixed, some are on the todo list, while some I wager will never be fixed.
The point to know here is that it is not the Developers fault for releasing the game with so many bugs. Its the people who pay the wages, the PWE 'board' for want of a better term. They will have picked a date to release DR and the Devs just had to get on with it.
Do you think they like releasing buggy content? I doubt it. But we live in the real world where time is money, friend. So they do what they can. PWE call the shots and the Devs fight fires, I know from experience as I worked for places like that.
As a player what can you do? If you don't like it vote with your wallet. Don't spend.
4. Alts
Just a quick note on alternative characters. I've seen lots of complaints from people who really don't want to spend the time levelling their 437 alts across 3 accounts. You had several years to level all those alts, just spend the same amount time over the next couple of years. Its the MMO way.
You may not have a full set of Epic XIV gear and full spec points, but its a damn ALTERNATIVE CHARACTER, it doesn't NEED them.
TL;DR Stop complaining and actually PLAY the game, you'll get there at your own pace.
1. Ship upgrades
There have been numerous posts where people complain about the cost of upgrading a ship they have already bought, whether it be the T5U upgrade or the T4/T5/T5U/T6 path.
All you bought was the ability to unlock the item, as it was, as that time. Its a digital item that, depending on the ToS of PWE, you may not even actually own. Lots of gaming companies retain ownership of all items within the game, hence why it is against the ToS to sell your account, as you don't own it anyway.
Complaining about not getting free upgrades or having to pay to upgrade a ship you already own is akin to asking to see the same movie at the cinema again and again, just because you bought a ticket once.
2. The Grind
I'm not going to break it to you gently here. ALL MMO titles are grind. You invest time, you are given progression as a result. You play, you level, you increase your abilities through gear.
STO is no different in that matter. We have just had a major level cap increase after several years without one. Take your time in levelling, THERE IS NO RUSH. You don't need everything now!
We have a good gear upgrade system in place. Again the costs are not over the top, not when you look at it logically. How much time did you spend grinding out all your equipment to XII. All the STF's you ran. All the Fleet projects you helped. All the dilithium you spent. I'll wager that the cost of all that is similar to the cost to upgrade items to the same rarity XIV.
Yes there is the ability to upgrade to EPIC. But you dont need that now, do it a little every day. If you are at the stage where you have a full set of XIV, upgrade one item a day, do it a little at a time.
This also leads on to specialisations. This is something that is meant to be achieved over time. Just play the game normally, as you did before DR and the points will come.
3. The Bugs
This is something where I'm in agreement with the rest of the community. There are so many awful bugs with everything introduced with DR. Some of those have been fixed, some are on the todo list, while some I wager will never be fixed.
The point to know here is that it is not the Developers fault for releasing the game with so many bugs. Its the people who pay the wages, the PWE 'board' for want of a better term. They will have picked a date to release DR and the Devs just had to get on with it.
Do you think they like releasing buggy content? I doubt it. But we live in the real world where time is money, friend. So they do what they can. PWE call the shots and the Devs fight fires, I know from experience as I worked for places like that.
As a player what can you do? If you don't like it vote with your wallet. Don't spend.
4. Alts
Just a quick note on alternative characters. I've seen lots of complaints from people who really don't want to spend the time levelling their 437 alts across 3 accounts. You had several years to level all those alts, just spend the same amount time over the next couple of years. Its the MMO way.
You may not have a full set of Epic XIV gear and full spec points, but its a damn ALTERNATIVE CHARACTER, it doesn't NEED them.
TL;DR Stop complaining and actually PLAY the game, you'll get there at your own pace.
Post edited by therealhippo on
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Ah, but we DON'T get there at our own pace, do we?! They keep reneging on the deal, every week or so. We do it at our own speed, and they keep changing the pace from under us.
And THAT, man-friend, is the problem!
And yes, that means literally everything. You could give people free stuff for doing nothing at all, some of them will just complain they aren't getting enough. Or that it was something they didn't want or already had, so they "deserve" to get something else instead. Etc, etc.
1) upgraded gear is the same old stuff. Been there, done that. Its lazy. They should have made new items. There are a few new things but the creativity is lacking.
2) upgraded gear is a major triple whammy to the new players. Imagine for a sec...new account, no dil, no EC, and not wealthy so limited ability to buy zen. You need a ship, gear, upgrades to that gear, upgrades to that ship, ... take the current costs of upgrades and effectively double it and that is what a new player that levels to 60 is facing. That is on top of rep grinds etc. Complain all they want, established players could buy their way out of the upgrade path rapidly ... many ppl had tons of EC/dil and the gear to earn more stuff (upgrade tech drops) and had developed crafting to make their own upgrades etc.
Both of these issue would have been solved by simply adding new gear to earn at mark XIV and having level 60 enemy drop the usual blue and green and very infrequent purple XIV starter item. Another tier of each rep with XIV store ... would still have been a dil grind and a rep grind and all that, but it would have FELT better than just a boring click here, empty your dil reserves into bucket, wait 10 hours, item complete interface. The upgrade path is anit-game play -- you just click, upgrade, wait, and its done, nothing to "earn" or "work towards". The only thing to "earn" is to become a pro dil farmer, preferably with at least 5 alts working on 8k capping daily.
Have to agree with this.....
Keeping in mind that players want more depth and complexity to their game, I know I would be completely lost if I just recently started playing.
But that is out of your control, why not simply play the game and not worry about if you are earning XP 5% faster or slower than the previous patch?
QFT. A sad but undeniable truth.
I don't think the upgrade/gear system is lazy per se. There just isnt much more scope for different weapon types left in the STO universe. In energy types alone we have Phaser, Disruptor, Polaron, Tetryon, Antiproton with many different subtypes.
We got a new subtype with DR as part of the new Rep. That is enough. Can you imagine the pain if we all had to DROP all our existing weapons and consoles for the newly introduced weapon types?
As for new players, I dont think its all that bad, sure there is a steep curve to the endgame grind, but it is not insurmountable. Nothing any worse than other MMO's.
FWIW one of my undergeared alts is currently levelling 50-60. He is currently level 54 after running the mirror event daily. I've splashed out on a Kazon ship (350K EC), only T5, not upgraded. Exchange bought weapons and the only rep items are borg deflector/engine. I have no problem running the current levelling content, nor should a new player tbh.
Ah, but this is the nub of my personal gripe.
STO's structure now pushes players overwhelmingly towards endless replay of the latest content - notably the DR episodes and Argala patrol - vs the more diverse range of options previously available. I levelled a few alts via DOffing, PVP and queues because, frankly, STO's narrative missions are generally not worth 10x replays.
So yes, all MMOs are grind. What grates is STO has gone from offering a range of grind options to taste, to being "you WILL do it this way!!"
Oh, you have firsthand experience in major MMO development? Wow, that is such a rare and unusual thing to hear claimed on these forums. Your opinion is instantly more valid to me.
All MMOs push you towards the latest content when levelling. You can do it other ways if you wish, but the Devs would like the new content, that they have been working on for several months, to be used.
Take WoW for example, I haven't played in years so it may have changed, but previously you slowly out leveled the old content until you reached a point where it gave you NO skill points at all and you HAD to do the new content. STO at least gives you a choice.
There are numerous options to leveling in STO, whether its the 50-60 or the post 60 points. You can Doff, STF, rerun old patrols/story missions, rerun new patrols/story missions. You may not get the best XP per hour, but that should not be a huge consideration. Just play how you enjoy playing and the XP will come.
Think of ALL the items someone could have been using at 50 prior to DR. Fleet Gear, lobi weapons, lock box and reputations gear. Over what period were they added? A single update? No, YEARS. Years and years of content and you would have wanted cryptic to throw all that away, chop end-game content down by a huge proportion, just to "be more creative?"
**** that.
Again, not thinking. What's the cost to a new player of buying top-level gear form the exchange (since fleet stores are generally not accessible for one reason or another to newbies. Mainly because of FC cost but there's also permissions to consider in some cases.) Speaking as someone who's created alts prior to and after DR its a hell of a lot more, relatively speaking. I can reasonably get XII VR tac consoles via upgrades whereas they're almost totally inaccessible otherwise. Same with any other piece of desirable standard equipment. And it also helps to under these circumstances to be able to get some type of resource (ie. low level upgrades and crafting materials) that's obtainable at low levels (so to speak) but still desirable even if you've maxed out your rep systems and filled your ship with as much fleet gear as possible (ie. something that's worth a damn on the exchange.)
Upgrades cost but they generally cost less than alternatives (compare the cost in upgrading an old XI borg set to XII versus having to grind through STF's again to get a new XII rep set) and they spread out that cost in such a way that channels some EC from the biggest money sinks (ie. greedy TRIBBLE) and back into the general population. Think about context, rather than the immediate price tag since that's likely to better inform you as to how **** actually works in this game.
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
I'm fine with it, but I do feel that all LOBI ships need to be made T6 already, and given special T6 skills. It's nice that they roll over to T5-U without cost. Also, make with the secondary deflectors already. I want a shiny Lobi Temporal one for a new piece of the set bonus. Maybe a passive 10% reduction in cooldown of boff skills?
2. The Grind
Sucks. I'm trying to get the spec points to max out the trees, but man this is going to take awhile without a bonus XP weekend. It would hurt less if they sold halfway decent XP boosters in the Z-Store.
3. The Bugs
THE
TRAY
NEEDS
FIXING
PLEASE
KTHX
4. Alts
Mine are dead. On the one hand, I'm considering starting to Doff now that I have my mind set on a "main." On the other hand, I'm spending less, and my spending will approach zero if I acquire everything I want. Probably not good for Cryptic. Now, if they'd just release a romulan intel science vessel...
Odan Brota (Science Officer): Captain of a 28k DPS Scryer Intel Science Vessel, U.S.S. Kepler
Patiently waiting for a Romulan Science Vessel
No. I have worked for places LIKE that. Where getting a product out on time is more important than any bugs it might have. The software world is rife with such examples. Microsoft does it consistently whilst simultaneously being probably the biggest software developer on the planet.
I am talking about having XIV gear you can just acquire directly. For example the crystal first place purples should be XIV purple. Loot from trash should be XIV white/green with the once in a while blue and almost never purple. Fleet and rep purchases going forward should be XIV. And there should have been new items with say the same old mods in new combinations... how about a new rep engineering console that adds power to a subsystem & turn rate? How about a new sci console that adds flowcaps & partgen? Maybe a new deflector that has a different set of bonuses. That sort of thing --- those were random examples of things I would like that may or may not be OP or something but the idea is ... new stuff.
Time will only tell!
However, I am also a realist. A huge chunk of players will not adapt. They will simply quit. This is bad for the game. I like the game and would like to play an additional 4 years or more. For this to happen the majority of players must not quit! Tada.
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."
But we ARE getting new items. The new DR rep has a new space set and console. People are reaching a point with crafting now where the new consoles are becoming more common place. We have a new Voyager ship released this week.
They have to trickle the content out, give it us all at once and we would soon get bored.
I agree with the mark XIV 'drops', they should be given out with advanced queues etc inplace of the current XII drops.
But lets not forget this is a F2P game which needs to turn a profit, its not made for our (the players) benefit. Selling Dilithium on upgrades (indirectly via Zen) achieves that goal.
But you are not paying for the same ship multiple times. You are paying to UNLOCK that current generation (T5/T6/Etc) to be playable.
Whether you find that to be value for money of course, is in the eye of beholder.
while I agree with you to a point the problem is new buyers, many of the T5 ships together with the upgrade work out at least as costly to buy now and in some cases even more so then T6 ships.
if you look at it from their viewpoint what incentive is there to as say today buy a 2500zen T5 ship together with a 500zen upgrade when they are selling the new Tier 6 Intrepid for 2000zen.
this is where it becomes a problem.
it also makes players feel bad when ships that were basically free are upgraded for free and the ones that actually cost money to buy are requiring a 500zen upgrade fee, this is totally unfair and players are bound to feel like they are being taken advantage of.
if you can give free upgrades for some it should be free for all.
2> the grind.
what grind I see no grind, I play the game I score points, those points I can spend or save to buy more advanced gear or to advance my characters standing.
there is no grind to me.
3> bugs.
all software has bugs, even the giants Microsoft & Apple need to release updates with bug fixes in them from time to time especially when they release a newer version of their systems.
having said that it would be nice if they had a list of reported bugs with a note to say they will all be addressed at some point.
we often report bugs and are left wondering if cryptic have even seen our report, especially when its not in the known bug list in the update notes.
4> Alts.
people have way too many characters, if they cant manage their characters they should have less.
that's why I only have 3 characters its how many I feel comfortable managing at the moment.
When I think about everything we've been through together,
maybe it's not the destination that matters, maybe it's the journey,
and if that journey takes a little longer,
so we can do something we all believe in,
I can't think of any place I'd rather be or any people I'd rather be with.
No. I did not say do away with the upgrade path, I *approve* of it as a part of the whole package. I said we should have some new stuff on top of it. New stuff that does not cost 100k dil to upgrade after doing a mission to earn it.
You are not a new player. You have EC and dil with a new alt and other resources, probably leveled crafter and more. You want to see what I am talking about try to gear out a new guy on a new account with no handouts from yourself or friends. Yes, its cheaper to upgrade... if you can get the upgrade items which are pricy and you cannot craft yourself and if you have the dil for it, which you won't because you are busy converting that to zen to get a ship and a ship upgrade token and saving it for omega gear and .... there isnt enough dil to go around for even established players, let alone a new one. I mean, i started a new guy too, a talaxian. And when it hits 60 I can give it my account bound XIV weapons, craft it purple stuff for every slot, feed it rush tokens for rep, feed it dil and money to upgrade and acquire anything in the game... reclaim any ship I already own... its not the same.
I think you misread that as "do away with upgrades". I am suggesting they should have the upgrade path, but there should be some new stuff too.
If you're flying a zen ship, for me discharging the ship and buying a new one fixed this. Hopefully that'll help for you?
When Delta Rising hit as a pretty much fresh 50 i waltzed myself (through brute force) up to lvl 60 only to discover that even with the (then) purple beam rewards i was hopelessely outclassed( and outgunned) by everything at my level. (even now they hit like a truck sometimes)
So i began the long trek to build (and get some alts on the way) up Dilithium, since i wasted quite some( like 22k on a store bought romulan plasma beam array with 2 ACC f.e) got my alt machinery (refine you slaves, REFINE:) ) to help out
I am in a relative good spot now, not great, but can hold myself at least on advanced queues and against the mobs at my level, but it was quite a piece of work
I do agree with you somewhat, that some kind of grind should be in the game, just personally i think there is way too much stuff requiring dilithium, like the R&D stuff f.e which should be adjusted imo. (less time or less dilithium would be happy with either lol)
As a newer player the R&D element is holding you back the most, since the only alternative of getting upgrade kits through crafting it yourself is buying it really expensive on the exchange(or items for that matter)
Anycase just my 2 cents
That's a generic answer that can be applied to any ship at any time. Care to be more specific?
1. You make a sound point, and I'm glad I read your post and it does show another side.
2. GOD DAMN YOU I READ ALL OF IT IN SIDE SHOW BOBS VOICE.
To be honest, my upgrade cost are minimun... as one of my chars can manofacture upgrade tech.. i even give it away for free to my fleetmates, as long as they send me materials for replication!..
What's my point? I grind like nobody's business and by the time I've finally ground up enough of whatever resource I need to buy that piece of gear or ship that I want, the dang thing is somewhat outdated.....
Don't give me that TRIBBLE about being patient and grinding for stuff....I get that nothing comes for free and that we have to work for stuff and not be able to max everything out in a day....but the Dilithium cost for upgrading your existing gear that you have had for over a year is just too steep.
the EC price of the purple ones adds up fast. I have made nearly 100 beam upgrades just for myself (darn alts even using account bound front weapons I have my rep items and uniques ...) and its a drain.
I always played my alts as my mains at various times. With DR the way it is I can no longer do this. combined with the bugs, this is a dealbreaker for me.
not complaining, but not playing the game either. This game is more fun these days when you don't log in.