you embarrass me, my posts look like double-extra-teenage-rage fueled nonsense by comparison
thanks for posting
Ultimately, there's so much wonky here, I think the "east meets west" culture problem (meaning misunderstanding and miscommunication) must be a sizable factor here. Without being able to understand the point of view of others, or the interest in doing so ... it's not going to change for the better.
This is where you lose a lot of credibility. Old Elite were locked to 50, Normal was 44. Your whole argument seems based that a new player should have access to gear that a veteran player has earned over years of playing, nonsense. The new Advanced is doable by players that know the encounters & use tactics when they lack DPS, like the old 10% rule from the old days. The main problem is, for the last 1.5+ years, ppl got used to being OP & Elie STFs being soloable. The DIL refinemnt argument is so common, you rly should read old threads to learn why there's a DIL cap@8k & what effects it would have if raised(hint: Devs would increase DIL costs in game to compensate).
Now you are correct and I don't know if it was a glitch or not but I was definitely able to run the Borg STF Conduit at Elite from lvl 48 on the second toon I leveled, I remember because it came as a surprise to me as I was earning Omega marks and Processors before I could ever get into the reputation system. Maybe that was some sort of fluke I don't know as I ignored PVE for a long time of my First toon and only came to it later, as I've said before I can only go by my experince.
Actually my argument is based on comparison with the other reputation systems the upgrade items from the Omega system are now much harder to earn for new players entering the system to earn possibly to the point of unachivanle. Dyson and Undine Battlezones both award upgrade items and you really don't need much in the way of equipment to tackle either. Thanks to the Borg ability to adapt particularity in ground areas the Omega rep gear is actually more essential to a player in these zones (one of the main reasons I lament the loss of the old X, XI versions as it gave you the boast you really needed to tackle Defra early on, but thats a different story.)
The Dev's have focused a lot on end game content and at no point have I ever said there shouldn't be a Elite level for those at 60 with all the toys, but to have proper accessibility to the system especially for the newest players there needs to be a proper intermediate level and advanced which can be tackled with Non Rep or Fleet items to some degree of success to people can build up to the level where they can become the Veterans themselves and have all the Toys
The premise of this is completely wrong. As had been pointed out in this thread already, and repeatedly whenever someone (who also clearly has massive gaps in understanding and knowledge of the system) wants the cap raised.
The dilithium refinement cap is not based on the average amount of dilithium that a player earns.
The dilithium refinement cap is the maximum amount of refined dilithium per character that Cryptic wants us to be able to refine. All dilithium costs and earnings are set relative to this cap.
They saw that pre-LoR the average amount of earned dilithium per player per day was only ~3k, so they increased the amount of raw dilithium we earned. Later, they saw that costs were too high relative to the dilithium income so they reduced the prices. The amount of ore we earn and the amount of refined dilithium we pay are set relative to the refinement cap.
You people complaining about the refinement cap need to get it through your heads. It's not going to change because it is what all income and expenses are based on.
What does that mean? It means that if you complain about the (immutable) cap being too low, you are complaining that you are earning too much ore. Get it? You are therefore arguing that they need to reduce the amount of ore we earn, which they did do.
So the reduction in dilithium rewards from the queues? I'm pointing the accusatory finger directly at those complaining about the refining cap. For the love of Q, if you don't know what you're whining about STFU or you'll TRIBBLE it all up!
You just logged in? When you posted...
It was 5AM PST, 8AM EST on a Wednesday. Between school and work, practically nobody in North America should be online.
It was 1PM GMT, 3PM EET on a Thursday. Between school and work, practically nobody in Europe should be online.
There have been a few points made about my comments regarding the Dil Cap. I've pretty much chosen this post at random to address them...
First I don't remember actually complaining, or whining as you put it, I made a suggestion based on my or more exactly the experinces of my Fleet mates who have mass upgraded (Its honestly not much of an issue for me as I tend to hoard and am waiting to lvl my R&D fully b4 I mass upgrade.) the figure was more or less pulled out of the air as a nice round figure to work from
Someone else suggested dropping the Dil prices for things like upgrading an equally valid solution however given the recent increases in Dil awards for STF's and battlezones and the huge stock piles of Ore easily acquired if you can run Elite PVE, I wouldn't be surprised if Cryptic are planing this themselves (although in all likelihood a much more modest raise than the 2000 I proposed as I suspect they will of actually done some maths on it first and worked it out across days weeks, multipule toons etc.)
Now my comment that Cryptic based this on what a player earns on average daily is based on an interview I saw with one of the Dev's which said they base it on daily earned average. I have no real reason to doubt what they said as I know when I started 8K was about what I pulled down through normal play which consisted of Academy Event, spot of mining, Exploration sector, little PVE and maybe a foundry mission (I'll have to take your word for it about pre LoR haven't been playing that long.)
If you are so convinced nothing will change, Why so concerned that some comments made my myself in the first post I added to a forum will, 'TRIBBLE everything up.' as you put it.
I merely madea suggestion aimed at re-balancing since the demands on a players Dil have increased especially since upgrading the amount of refined Dil a player can have access to daily would also help improve the gaming experince.
I read your post and you have right with all you say.
But you are too gentle. After the work they do, the developer must be at least TRIBBLE, most probably sadistic *******. And they think world is full of masochistic person who like the pain and this game give a chance to get it.
I dont understend why they espect to go to hell to get so litle reward, becouse every mission on advanced is hell. I have a team of full develop ship with console of 14 and weapon of 14 and we fail the mission on advanced. Becouse we cant save 15 borg ship in amont of time give in 3 spot on map. Wich prouve my point, the developer are imbecils. Sory for spending your money for life subscripsion. I play this game long time ago when was ok. Now is wrong in so many way. And what i realy like is the pride of developer about theit work. SOMEONE MUST SAY IT TO DEVELOPER: YOUR WORK SUCK, AND YOU MUST GO WORK AT MC DONALD AND LET OTHER PEOPLE FIX THE GAME. WITH YOUR WORK, YOU MAKE "WORLD OF TANK" VERY ATRACTIV. I have a friend who erase all his caracters to stop playngs this game becouse he became too nervous in some mission.
In response to the accusation I've been to gentle I'd say your being a too harsh on the Dev team, although after a spate of disconnects the other day I was cursing freely. And nothing is going to be solved by calling them names.
Delta Rising at its core isn't bad. I think they Overestimated what the average player is capable of while they were re-balancing it for level 60 and have put a huge hole in the ability of people to perform effectively at the mid game point by gearing it around High end so called 'Elite Hardcore Veterans' who were very vocal and distorted the average players were able to achieve while play testing. And a look at the Delta marks earned for various things wouldn't hurt as compared to the similar zones for other Rep systems the rewards are somewhat low in terms of marks.
There is nothing hugely wrong its to my mind a simple matter of re-balancing so there is a mid point that can be tackled by anyone from My partner who is Casual F2P and likes to occasionally dip into PVE for some Pew Pew Pew to the 'Hard Core Elite Veterans' who want to run a quick PVE for some Dil b4 signing off for the night without having to worry about a run of auto fails.
Normal for easy runs, and the newbies to learn on, Advanced a mid point set to a similar level to the old Elite mode (possibly scaled back a bit on the Old Undine Space ones, just a personal thought there.) and a Truly Elite mode for those who wish a challenge accessibility for all.
But while this is simple to say and unbalanced scenarios can cause huge amounts of frustration and anger, balancing them correctly is not as easy to do and calling them names because they haven't got it right isn't really fair. I live in hopes these issues will be addressed and everyone can play at the level they want and not have to penalised if they done have/ dont want to create the massive DPS boats needed to venture into a Space Elite/Advanced these days
Bullet sponges are a quick fix for devs to add harder end game content with hardly any need for mission redesign. But think about it, it forces teamwork and relying on your teammates for support to survive. I'm OK with this addition to start with. If you are looking for more STRATEGIC missions, STO isn't designed that way. The episode mission devs are getting better, in the future maybe missions will be more interactive ...
If you play pretty much any other MMO, you will see there's better progression, better storyline writing, better interaction for the player within a mission...
Adding more health doesn't improve diversity or strategic teamwork. It means literally sitting there waiting for the enemy to die. DPS builds get it done faster, non-DPS builds or Science Captains just sit there waiting for something to happen. I may sound harsh but then in some cases it's needed. The quality and design elements that should be present in anything which had a decent amount of funding (and this certainly has a decent amount, well had before DR at least) are absent.
You get the good with the bad. Here is bottom line...STO was winding down and costing more to run than was making. This new business model has been proven to work in recovering other games so they can make revenue. It adds population thus money. And yes, you will bottlenecked to PAY for the 'free' game in the model. And new engines will need the bugs worked out, have patience.
Err you missed my point there. I have nothing against making revenue, what I have something against is sidelining the necessary work to fix the game, instead selling overpriced ships in packs for nigh on $50 back then, more now due to inflation. New engines may need bugs worked out just like anything, however with a rebuild of STO in something like CryEngine or Unreal Engine at least it would be able to look pretty good, play a TRIBBLE load better and not have a UI that makes the game run like TRIBBLE. Seriously sit outside ESD in space, hit Alt-F12 and remove the UI with an FPS counter running. Mine goes from 110FPS to 32FPS with just the Character window and Inventory open. With no windows open as it would be normally it's around 49-50FPS, open the reputation window and it's 21FPS. Don't make excuses for stuff you clearly have no knowledge of.
I have no clue what the point is you are trying to make here. Linear level progression is required in any MMORPG, whether it's filling an experience bar or getting that new better dagger. Otherwise there is no goal and you have a sandbox player driven model. EVE would be a better game for you.
The point I'm making is that other MMO's are using updates to the old linear leveling system, ones that aren't necessarily fully linear. Giving players more options on how to play, where to play and what they want from the game. Currently STO is a collection of little minigames with a mostly Single Player story arc. It's not really an MMO. I guess I'm griping about the lack of any attempt to innovate or keep up with the concepts that are years old in other MMO's. Like the myth of the ostrich with it's head in the sand...
Oh and EvE has no interest for me, mostly because it's just sitting there watching spreadsheets, without actually doing much yourself.
Chris Robert's on SC:
"You don't have to do something again and again and again repetitive that doesn't have much challange, that's just a general good gameplay thing."
First I don't remember actually complaining, or whining as you put it
I apologize for this characterization - this is the 3rd or 4th time in recent memory I've responded to something of this sort, those threads focused exclusively on the cap, and could definitely be characterized as whining.
If you are so convinced nothing will change, Why so concerned that some comments made my myself in the first post I added to a forum will, 'TRIBBLE everything up.' as you put it.
No, I'm saying that the cap will not change, not that nothing will change.
They did change it. There was whining that we had too much ore (though obviously not phrased in that manner) and that we couldn't refine it all. That was pre-DR. When DR hit, our Dilithium rewards dropped significantly. They're only starting to bring it back up now.
That's what pisses me off. It's like complaining that there are too many restrictions on how we can spend our welfare payments, so we can't spend all of it. Do you think that will make the government lift the restrictions, or reduce the payments?
Now my comment that Cryptic based this on what a player earns on average daily is based on an interview I saw with one of the Dev's which said they base it on daily earned average.
"Refined Dilithium differs from energy credits because there is a maximum cap that can be obtained by any character per day of 8000 Refined Dilithium (8500 for 800 day subscription veterans or lifetime subscribers) . This cap serves two purposes: to keep players on equal footing in the acquisition of Refined Dilithium (vital to the player-to-player trade economy) and to prevent or catch potential exploits."
"In our game design, Dilithium represents time invested in playing a variety of select missions in STO. By setting the max cap per day, obtaining large amounts of Refined Dilithium requires logging in regularly and engaging with missions and systems that the STO team has designated. The STO team has consistently ensured that there is enough missions and systems in the game that any player should be able to earn 8000 Dilithium per day if they focus on Dilithium based missions for about 4 hours. By the way, the average level 50 player plays approximately 3.5 hours on a given day."
So we're supposed to earn 2k ore per hour, and the average person should earn 7k ore per day - if we're doing the content they want us to be doing. Now keeping in mind that these are Season 7 figures:
"End game gear prices range depending on the mark quality and exclusivity of the piece. For example, Ground Armor ranges from 6,300 Refined Dilithium up to about 16,800 Dilithium for Mk 12 Premium Set Ground Armor. More critical gear such as Space Impulse Engines can range from 37,900 Refined Dilithium all the way up to about 84,000 Refined Dilithium for a Mk 12 Premium Set Impulse Engine.
When measured against the max refining cap of 8000 Dilithium per day, it means that a player may need to invest about 5 days at 4 hours per session for the best MK 10 Purple item, and well over 10 days for the best Mk 12 Purple item (even more if you the item is part of the Fleet or Reputation tiers).
The only other reason that players may need more Dilithium is if they are in a Fleet as nearly all Fleet Projects require a significant amount of Dilithium that is meant to be a shared cost across all Fleet Members. The gear and starships offered as rewards from Fleet Projects are intended to take significantly more time due to the time involved in leveling up the Starbase. The reason why some top end Fleet gear costs less Dilithium in the store is because of the inferred Dilithium cost in leveling up the Fleet Holding."
As we can see, they want Dilithium-required gear (and Fleet holdings) to require a certain amount of aggregate player time. Therefore, Dilithium prices are set according to the Dilithium cap.
"Concern 1 - Active level 50 players are refining far less Dilithium than we expect them to.
Prior to Season 7, the average amount of Dilithium refined by an active level 50 player was 3100 per session or 13,250 per week. That is far less than the cap of 8000 per day when you consider that most level 50 players play multiple days per week and slightly more than the average hours per session.
Concern 2 Several missions were rewarding far more Dilithium than they should have. We have a guideline for how much Dilithium should be earned based on effort and time spent, and there were several missions that were clearly outside of our guidelines and players were using these missions to earn more Dilithium than we intended."
Combine this with the previous inference, and we come to the conclusion that the amount of Dilithium Ore we earn from content and the amount of Refined Dilithium things cost are calculated based on the Dilithium Cap.
Read through that blog post, and the design philosophy behind Dilithium Ore income, Refined Dilithium prices, and the Dilithium Refinement Cap becomes very clear.
Darkjeff the problem there is those calculations are not based on constants, therefore we ended up with the current situation of utter BS in terms of Dilithium to Gear to Time ratios.
I can comprehend giving the game pacing, giving the players goals to reach, but currently the goals are poorly thought out, the pacing makes snail movement interesting as a long term enjoyment prospect, which results in the current reactions to their arbitrary and clearly not well thought out decisions. They may have had many brain-storming sessions and meetings about these systems, but they certainly didn't get them working in a way that benefited their playerbase or their reputation.
I don't mind the Dil cap, I do mind the 2K Dil per upgrade item at Mk XII to get to Mk XIII. Other people have done the calculations and it's crazy. I did a test of around 40 Mk II VR Antiproton Beam Array's. I was after two modifiers. CrtD X2 + Pen or CrtD x3. I got 1 in that batch of 40. The rest become mostly 2,000 EC throwaways on the exchange.
Getting the items off the exchange are also massively costly something most players couldn't even dream of making in a year. All it did for the economy was create a wealth transfer much like a financial crisis does. The 1%ers get more entrenched with the ability to make more money off the hard to make and rarer items, whereas those trying to get a bit of EC together fail to do so due to the increased costs incurred. It's now over 10x more expensive to make a viable late game ship for use in PvE, probably closer to 20x for PvP. It literally made the game far more elitist than it ever was.
Chris Robert's on SC:
"You don't have to do something again and again and again repetitive that doesn't have much challange, that's just a general good gameplay thing."
.
I don't mind the Dil cap, I do mind the 2K Dil per upgrade item at Mk XII to get to Mk XIII. Other people have done the calculations and it's crazy. I did a test of around 40 Mk II VR Antiproton Beam Array's. I was after two modifiers. CrtD X2 + Pen or CrtD x3. I got 1 in that batch of 40. The rest become mostly 2,000 EC throwaways on the exchange.
Getting the items off the exchange are also massively costly something most players couldn't even dream of making in a year. All it did for the economy was create a wealth transfer much like a financial crisis does.
1:40? Sounds you have been lucky! Carfing and upgrading in this game to get better gear feels like a weird Pakled-Ferengi nighmare.
What purpose does it serve for anybody?
Looking for a fun PvE fleet? Join us at Omega Combat Division today.
I apologize for this characterization - this is the 3rd or 4th time in recent memory I've responded to something of this sort, those threads focused exclusively on the cap, and could definitely be characterized as whining.
No, I'm saying that the cap will not change, not that nothing will change.
They did change it. There was whining that we had too much ore (though obviously not phrased in that manner) and that we couldn't refine it all. That was pre-DR. When DR hit, our Dilithium rewards dropped significantly. They're only starting to bring it back up now.
That's what pisses me off. It's like complaining that there are too many restrictions on how we can spend our welfare payments, so we can't spend all of it. Do you think that will make the government lift the restrictions, or reduce the payments?
So we're supposed to earn 2k ore per hour, and the average person should earn 7k ore per day - if we're doing the content they want us to be doing. Now keeping in mind that these are Season 7 figures:
As we can see, they want Dilithium-required gear (and Fleet holdings) to require a certain amount of aggregate player time. Therefore, Dilithium prices are set according to the Dilithium cap.
Combine this with the previous inference, and we come to the conclusion that the amount of Dilithium Ore we earn from content and the amount of Refined Dilithium things cost are calculated based on the Dilithium Cap.
Read through that blog post, and the design philosophy behind Dilithium Ore income, Refined Dilithium prices, and the Dilithium Refinement Cap becomes very clear.
Again, I'm not complaining, you apologies and then level the same accusation at me at the end of the comment. I get commenting on repeated threads will grate after a while but still.
The amounts of ore available is significantly higher well at least once you reach end game content (the initial PVE amounts were lower but places like Dyson Ground still awarded on average 7.5K Dil in 1 hour with a possibility for more and since the last increase I'm averaging over 8K and that's with only a 2 Bonus Vrex's. out of 3 killed) and amount of different demands on it are also increased, a raise in the cap would seem logical if for no other reason than that and again, honestly it would not surprise me if they already have something like this in mind. The Increase of Dil awarded in all Battlezones is a significant step up to the amounts its easy to earn daily.
Okay the comparison to welfare payments is all wrong, that is a government subsidy to survive if you are unemployed (at least I assume, I'm UK based and we have an entirely different system.) This is an economic mechanic in a GAME designed to control the proliferation of High End level equipment and encourage time investment as well as earn Real world money for the company (Zen/Dil exchange.) In that manor it needs to be tightly controlled, or the economy falls apart. With that in view, the amount of demands on a players refined Dil have increased but access to refined Dil has not (Upgrade system being the single biggest draw.) All I've said is it needs to be re-examined given how fast upgrading or rapid lvling of R&D will burn through 8k a day. If Cryptic announces, hey we looked at it but the maths still works, fair enough but my main point is it needs looking at, not simply leaving because it used to balance up.
Okay I'll have to conceded to you on the reason for the Cap, I honestly cannot remember where I read the article, I have a feeling it was something off the STO Facebook page about a year ago, but I honestly don't have the time to go digging through to find it, cardinal sin of making a statement I know, not being able to reference you point, so I'll conceded to you on that one.
Darkjeff the problem there is those calculations are not based on constants, therefore we ended up with the current situation of utter BS in terms of Dilithium to Gear to Time ratios.
The Dilithium to Gear to Time ratio is what they choose, and the actual values are calculated based on the constant of "8000 max per day".
Which is not to say that I don't agree the costs are high, my point is we should be complaining that we don't have the refined dilithium to afford things in a reasonable amount of time(*), not that we can't refine all our ore - which in the context of the system translates to "we have too much ore".
(*) Although we do have to note that Cryptic and many players disagree on when we're supposed to be able to get things. For example, it seems obvious to me that the Specialization system is a "your earned XP isn't wasted even if you're at max level!" bonus that's supposed to last for a very long time, not another 60 levels you're supposed to grind in a week or two.
Again, I'm not complaining, you apologies and then level the same accusation at me at the end of the comment. I get commenting on repeated threads will grate after a while but still.
Please don't take it personally, I'm talking about the actual effects of any argument that the cap should be increased. All they will hear is "We're earning too much ore!"
The amounts of ore available is significantly higher well at least once you reach end game content (the initial PVE amounts were lower but places like Dyson Ground still awarded on average 7.5K Dil in 1 hour with a possibility for more and since the last increase I'm averaging over 8K and that's with only a 2 Bonus Vrex's. out of 3 killed) and amount of different demands on it are also increased, a raise in the cap would seem logical if for no other reason than that and again, honestly it would not surprise me if they already have something like this in mind. The Increase of Dil awarded in all Battlezones is a significant step up to the amounts its easy to earn daily.
The amount of ore any content rewards is related not just to the rate of progression they want us to have, but also which content they want us too play. Not enough people on Kobali (since most of us are done with the chain), so they up the rewards to tempt people back. Dyson has also decreased in population since the days we were all grinding Dyson marks - and they probably noticed that everybody is complaining about Advanced space content, but nobody seems to care about ground, so that's another reason to give us an incentive to play more ground content.
The Dilithium to Gear to Time ratio is what they choose, and the actual values are calculated based on the constant of "8000 max per day".
Which is not to say that I don't agree the costs are high, my point is we should be complaining that we don't have the refined dilithium to afford things in a reasonable amount of time(*), not that we can't refine all our ore - which in the context of the system translates to "we have too much ore".
(*) Although we do have to note that Cryptic and many players disagree on when we're supposed to be able to get things. For example, it seems obvious to me that the Specialization system is a "your earned XP isn't wasted even if you're at max level!" bonus that's supposed to last for a very long time, not another 60 levels you're supposed to grind in a week or two.
Please don't take it personally, I'm talking about the actual effects of any argument that the cap should be increased. all they will hear is "We're earning too much ore!"
I won't mate, been a long couple of day and I think I'm getting touchy
I totally agree there the costs do seem high, and I see what your saying about the time invested over excessive ore argument, I well understand how the corporate mind works based on that your talking 4 days for a Rep Item (going with the standard 32k Dil cost. for the required Marks add another couple of days, need to increase marks in Delta Rep being a far bigger issue for me), which is reasonable to me, the R&D costs and Upgrades especially seem to be out of scale with that though and my view on raising the cap was lees involed than re-examining all the games pricing, most people will follow the path of least resistance and the end of the day, lowering costs will alter lost of things game wide and be a big under taking, I just saw them moving the goal posts on the cap as a simpler undertaking and therefore more likely.
All this said,
Just had this thought based on comments from another post.
Another equally valid solution to the current issue is the main problem people encounter with Upgrading is the DIl invested feels like a waste its very costly and your chances of a quality improvement are very small... A small mechanic which would probably remove a lot of players concerns over Dil invested and render any Cap increase/price decrease unnecessary here, would simply be to allow the tech points earned to remain at each level rather than resetting each time, then it makes leveling an item from start of game feel more worthwhile and less like your rolling the R&D lottery. If I could take a Mk X item and see its chance of quality upgrade steadily increase then I'd feel I had a decent chance each time, its tech points only resetting when it improves in quality it would make investing the TP boasters I'm hoarding seem worth it before lvl XIV.
Such a move would go a long way in my view of rendering any Cap raise debate moot.
the R&D costs and Upgrades especially seem to be out of scale with that though
This is actually related to my comment regarding Specialization points, about player versus Cryptic's expectations.
Much like how I don't think we're intended to grind to max out Specialization points, I don't think we're intended to grind to get our gear to Mk XIV. The cost to get to Mk XIII is fairly reasonable, but jumps up significantly when trying to get to Mk XIV. Keeping in mind that Dilithium prices are set relative to the Refinement Cap, and that prices are an indication of how long they expect/want us to take to max out our gear, and it looks like these are supposed to be very long term things.
The other way we can use Dilithium on the Upgrade system is to skip the timer - and since Refined Dilithium is essentially used to determine the minimum time required for something, and the timer is literally the time required for something, they're essentially allowing us to cash out our saved "time already waited" to skip the time we need to wait. I don't think it costs more than 2k Dil to skip 1 hour of timer, so we're actually profiting in that sense.
It looks like they wanted to not have us stuck in a rut of "everything is maxed out, nothing to do" again - which honestly was why pre-DR (if there weren't events) I barely did more than DOff and maybe a random queue if I felt like pew-pewing. They wanted to give us a very long term system of progression so we'd have things to work on until they could deliver more content. That's also why Specialization points take so much XP to accrue - they're not something we're supposed to grind and get in a month, they're supposed to be mild bonuses that we gradually unlock as we play. I personally don't grind and got a point every few days.
Aside from that same timer skipping, afaik the only way that the R&D system needs Dilithium is if we're making the unique gear (and the components required for it) at the end of the R&D system. That high end gear is analogous to Rep/Fleet gear, so the fact that it'll cost us dilithium is to be expected. I will admit I do not know the actual numbers off-hand (especially since those components also cost Dilithium).
I will note that any crafted gear aside from the unique gear should ideally be made at lower marks that don't require Dilithium (for best cost efficiency), which is probably an unintended consequences of how the R&D and Upgrade system works together. If we ignore that possibly unintended synergy, the costs to get Mk XII gear via either system are roughly in line with the costs to get equal-quality gear.
Again, I think anything past Mk XII are supposed to be long term things for us to slowly work on, not short term things we're supposed to grind to keep up. The fact that the benefits aren't that great unless you've maxed everything out seems to support that hypothesis.
From what I can tell, the difference between Mk XII VR/URs and Mk XIV non-Epics is only ~15%:
If a ship does 10k DPS, that's an extra 1.5k DPS. If a ship does 3k, that's an extra 500 DPS. It's not going to make a big difference, and if we look at that from the perspective of "we need to grind for max gear to do the new content", the cost:benefit ratio is horrendously out of tune, just like with the effort required to max out Specializations.
However, if we look at it from the perspective of "even after we've hit max level, there's extra bonuses we can sink excess resources into", then the cost:benefit ratio is understandable.
It comes down to a debate on what the game actually was, what it can be, and how can the improvement be implemented cost efficiently.
PWI saved STO from going under with the F2P model and leveling redesign. Unfortunately, the content took a hit. Their focus is for the F2P player running around between 1 to 50. In the years before PWI, all the resources for development was refining that leveling. With PWI implementation of the new F2P model, the leveling curve was thrown out the window in order to appeal to a new player. Now the scaling of the content from 1-50 outweighs the 50-60 end game content.
I understand the frustration of TRIBBLE end game HP sponges with no tactics, but the fact that STO is still operating and making money is the bottom line. Your objective opinion of why the game sucks is a result of the game still existing because of the PWI changes. If you are out of content because you have played every day since 2006, then take your thousands of playtime hours that you were entertained, thank the devs, and find something new.
Personally, I recommend deleting your end game have every ship characters and start over. Make it rewarding again. Or dive into the foundry and be creative. Contribute that way.
Comments
you embarrass me, my posts look like double-extra-teenage-rage fueled nonsense by comparison
thanks for posting
Ultimately, there's so much wonky here, I think the "east meets west" culture problem (meaning misunderstanding and miscommunication) must be a sizable factor here. Without being able to understand the point of view of others, or the interest in doing so ... it's not going to change for the better.
but we can hope, and enjoy what's still enjoyable
Now you are correct and I don't know if it was a glitch or not but I was definitely able to run the Borg STF Conduit at Elite from lvl 48 on the second toon I leveled, I remember because it came as a surprise to me as I was earning Omega marks and Processors before I could ever get into the reputation system. Maybe that was some sort of fluke I don't know as I ignored PVE for a long time of my First toon and only came to it later, as I've said before I can only go by my experince.
Actually my argument is based on comparison with the other reputation systems the upgrade items from the Omega system are now much harder to earn for new players entering the system to earn possibly to the point of unachivanle. Dyson and Undine Battlezones both award upgrade items and you really don't need much in the way of equipment to tackle either. Thanks to the Borg ability to adapt particularity in ground areas the Omega rep gear is actually more essential to a player in these zones (one of the main reasons I lament the loss of the old X, XI versions as it gave you the boast you really needed to tackle Defra early on, but thats a different story.)
The Dev's have focused a lot on end game content and at no point have I ever said there shouldn't be a Elite level for those at 60 with all the toys, but to have proper accessibility to the system especially for the newest players there needs to be a proper intermediate level and advanced which can be tackled with Non Rep or Fleet items to some degree of success to people can build up to the level where they can become the Veterans themselves and have all the Toys
There have been a few points made about my comments regarding the Dil Cap. I've pretty much chosen this post at random to address them...
First I don't remember actually complaining, or whining as you put it, I made a suggestion based on my or more exactly the experinces of my Fleet mates who have mass upgraded (Its honestly not much of an issue for me as I tend to hoard and am waiting to lvl my R&D fully b4 I mass upgrade.) the figure was more or less pulled out of the air as a nice round figure to work from
Someone else suggested dropping the Dil prices for things like upgrading an equally valid solution however given the recent increases in Dil awards for STF's and battlezones and the huge stock piles of Ore easily acquired if you can run Elite PVE, I wouldn't be surprised if Cryptic are planing this themselves (although in all likelihood a much more modest raise than the 2000 I proposed as I suspect they will of actually done some maths on it first and worked it out across days weeks, multipule toons etc.)
Now my comment that Cryptic based this on what a player earns on average daily is based on an interview I saw with one of the Dev's which said they base it on daily earned average. I have no real reason to doubt what they said as I know when I started 8K was about what I pulled down through normal play which consisted of Academy Event, spot of mining, Exploration sector, little PVE and maybe a foundry mission (I'll have to take your word for it about pre LoR haven't been playing that long.)
If you are so convinced nothing will change, Why so concerned that some comments made my myself in the first post I added to a forum will, 'TRIBBLE everything up.' as you put it.
I merely madea suggestion aimed at re-balancing since the demands on a players Dil have increased especially since upgrading the amount of refined Dil a player can have access to daily would also help improve the gaming experince.
In response to the accusation I've been to gentle I'd say your being a too harsh on the Dev team, although after a spate of disconnects the other day I was cursing freely. And nothing is going to be solved by calling them names.
Delta Rising at its core isn't bad. I think they Overestimated what the average player is capable of while they were re-balancing it for level 60 and have put a huge hole in the ability of people to perform effectively at the mid game point by gearing it around High end so called 'Elite Hardcore Veterans' who were very vocal and distorted the average players were able to achieve while play testing. And a look at the Delta marks earned for various things wouldn't hurt as compared to the similar zones for other Rep systems the rewards are somewhat low in terms of marks.
There is nothing hugely wrong its to my mind a simple matter of re-balancing so there is a mid point that can be tackled by anyone from My partner who is Casual F2P and likes to occasionally dip into PVE for some Pew Pew Pew to the 'Hard Core Elite Veterans' who want to run a quick PVE for some Dil b4 signing off for the night without having to worry about a run of auto fails.
Normal for easy runs, and the newbies to learn on, Advanced a mid point set to a similar level to the old Elite mode (possibly scaled back a bit on the Old Undine Space ones, just a personal thought there.) and a Truly Elite mode for those who wish a challenge accessibility for all.
But while this is simple to say and unbalanced scenarios can cause huge amounts of frustration and anger, balancing them correctly is not as easy to do and calling them names because they haven't got it right isn't really fair. I live in hopes these issues will be addressed and everyone can play at the level they want and not have to penalised if they done have/ dont want to create the massive DPS boats needed to venture into a Space Elite/Advanced these days
If you play pretty much any other MMO, you will see there's better progression, better storyline writing, better interaction for the player within a mission...
Adding more health doesn't improve diversity or strategic teamwork. It means literally sitting there waiting for the enemy to die. DPS builds get it done faster, non-DPS builds or Science Captains just sit there waiting for something to happen. I may sound harsh but then in some cases it's needed. The quality and design elements that should be present in anything which had a decent amount of funding (and this certainly has a decent amount, well had before DR at least) are absent.
Err you missed my point there. I have nothing against making revenue, what I have something against is sidelining the necessary work to fix the game, instead selling overpriced ships in packs for nigh on $50 back then, more now due to inflation. New engines may need bugs worked out just like anything, however with a rebuild of STO in something like CryEngine or Unreal Engine at least it would be able to look pretty good, play a TRIBBLE load better and not have a UI that makes the game run like TRIBBLE. Seriously sit outside ESD in space, hit Alt-F12 and remove the UI with an FPS counter running. Mine goes from 110FPS to 32FPS with just the Character window and Inventory open. With no windows open as it would be normally it's around 49-50FPS, open the reputation window and it's 21FPS. Don't make excuses for stuff you clearly have no knowledge of.
The point I'm making is that other MMO's are using updates to the old linear leveling system, ones that aren't necessarily fully linear. Giving players more options on how to play, where to play and what they want from the game. Currently STO is a collection of little minigames with a mostly Single Player story arc. It's not really an MMO. I guess I'm griping about the lack of any attempt to innovate or keep up with the concepts that are years old in other MMO's. Like the myth of the ostrich with it's head in the sand...
Oh and EvE has no interest for me, mostly because it's just sitting there watching spreadsheets, without actually doing much yourself.
"You don't have to do something again and again and again repetitive that doesn't have much challange, that's just a general good gameplay thing."
No, I'm saying that the cap will not change, not that nothing will change.
They did change it. There was whining that we had too much ore (though obviously not phrased in that manner) and that we couldn't refine it all. That was pre-DR. When DR hit, our Dilithium rewards dropped significantly. They're only starting to bring it back up now.
That's what pisses me off. It's like complaining that there are too many restrictions on how we can spend our welfare payments, so we can't spend all of it. Do you think that will make the government lift the restrictions, or reduce the payments?
Source, please?
I'm thinking of Season 7, Dev Blog #17. Excerpts:
So we're supposed to earn 2k ore per hour, and the average person should earn 7k ore per day - if we're doing the content they want us to be doing. Now keeping in mind that these are Season 7 figures:
As we can see, they want Dilithium-required gear (and Fleet holdings) to require a certain amount of aggregate player time. Therefore, Dilithium prices are set according to the Dilithium cap.
Combine this with the previous inference, and we come to the conclusion that the amount of Dilithium Ore we earn from content and the amount of Refined Dilithium things cost are calculated based on the Dilithium Cap.
Read through that blog post, and the design philosophy behind Dilithium Ore income, Refined Dilithium prices, and the Dilithium Refinement Cap becomes very clear.
I can comprehend giving the game pacing, giving the players goals to reach, but currently the goals are poorly thought out, the pacing makes snail movement interesting as a long term enjoyment prospect, which results in the current reactions to their arbitrary and clearly not well thought out decisions. They may have had many brain-storming sessions and meetings about these systems, but they certainly didn't get them working in a way that benefited their playerbase or their reputation.
I don't mind the Dil cap, I do mind the 2K Dil per upgrade item at Mk XII to get to Mk XIII. Other people have done the calculations and it's crazy. I did a test of around 40 Mk II VR Antiproton Beam Array's. I was after two modifiers. CrtD X2 + Pen or CrtD x3. I got 1 in that batch of 40. The rest become mostly 2,000 EC throwaways on the exchange.
Getting the items off the exchange are also massively costly something most players couldn't even dream of making in a year. All it did for the economy was create a wealth transfer much like a financial crisis does. The 1%ers get more entrenched with the ability to make more money off the hard to make and rarer items, whereas those trying to get a bit of EC together fail to do so due to the increased costs incurred. It's now over 10x more expensive to make a viable late game ship for use in PvE, probably closer to 20x for PvP. It literally made the game far more elitist than it ever was.
"You don't have to do something again and again and again repetitive that doesn't have much challange, that's just a general good gameplay thing."
1:40? Sounds you have been lucky! Carfing and upgrading in this game to get better gear feels like a weird Pakled-Ferengi nighmare.
What purpose does it serve for anybody?
Looking for a fun PvE fleet? Join us at Omega Combat Division today.
Again, I'm not complaining, you apologies and then level the same accusation at me at the end of the comment. I get commenting on repeated threads will grate after a while but still.
The amounts of ore available is significantly higher well at least once you reach end game content (the initial PVE amounts were lower but places like Dyson Ground still awarded on average 7.5K Dil in 1 hour with a possibility for more and since the last increase I'm averaging over 8K and that's with only a 2 Bonus Vrex's. out of 3 killed) and amount of different demands on it are also increased, a raise in the cap would seem logical if for no other reason than that and again, honestly it would not surprise me if they already have something like this in mind. The Increase of Dil awarded in all Battlezones is a significant step up to the amounts its easy to earn daily.
Okay the comparison to welfare payments is all wrong, that is a government subsidy to survive if you are unemployed (at least I assume, I'm UK based and we have an entirely different system.) This is an economic mechanic in a GAME designed to control the proliferation of High End level equipment and encourage time investment as well as earn Real world money for the company (Zen/Dil exchange.) In that manor it needs to be tightly controlled, or the economy falls apart. With that in view, the amount of demands on a players refined Dil have increased but access to refined Dil has not (Upgrade system being the single biggest draw.) All I've said is it needs to be re-examined given how fast upgrading or rapid lvling of R&D will burn through 8k a day. If Cryptic announces, hey we looked at it but the maths still works, fair enough but my main point is it needs looking at, not simply leaving because it used to balance up.
Okay I'll have to conceded to you on the reason for the Cap, I honestly cannot remember where I read the article, I have a feeling it was something off the STO Facebook page about a year ago, but I honestly don't have the time to go digging through to find it, cardinal sin of making a statement I know, not being able to reference you point, so I'll conceded to you on that one.
The Dilithium to Gear to Time ratio is what they choose, and the actual values are calculated based on the constant of "8000 max per day".
Which is not to say that I don't agree the costs are high, my point is we should be complaining that we don't have the refined dilithium to afford things in a reasonable amount of time(*), not that we can't refine all our ore - which in the context of the system translates to "we have too much ore".
(*) Although we do have to note that Cryptic and many players disagree on when we're supposed to be able to get things. For example, it seems obvious to me that the Specialization system is a "your earned XP isn't wasted even if you're at max level!" bonus that's supposed to last for a very long time, not another 60 levels you're supposed to grind in a week or two.
Please don't take it personally, I'm talking about the actual effects of any argument that the cap should be increased. All they will hear is "We're earning too much ore!"
The amount of ore any content rewards is related not just to the rate of progression they want us to have, but also which content they want us too play. Not enough people on Kobali (since most of us are done with the chain), so they up the rewards to tempt people back. Dyson has also decreased in population since the days we were all grinding Dyson marks - and they probably noticed that everybody is complaining about Advanced space content, but nobody seems to care about ground, so that's another reason to give us an incentive to play more ground content.
I won't mate, been a long couple of day and I think I'm getting touchy
I totally agree there the costs do seem high, and I see what your saying about the time invested over excessive ore argument, I well understand how the corporate mind works based on that your talking 4 days for a Rep Item (going with the standard 32k Dil cost. for the required Marks add another couple of days, need to increase marks in Delta Rep being a far bigger issue for me), which is reasonable to me, the R&D costs and Upgrades especially seem to be out of scale with that though and my view on raising the cap was lees involed than re-examining all the games pricing, most people will follow the path of least resistance and the end of the day, lowering costs will alter lost of things game wide and be a big under taking, I just saw them moving the goal posts on the cap as a simpler undertaking and therefore more likely.
All this said,
Just had this thought based on comments from another post.
Another equally valid solution to the current issue is the main problem people encounter with Upgrading is the DIl invested feels like a waste its very costly and your chances of a quality improvement are very small... A small mechanic which would probably remove a lot of players concerns over Dil invested and render any Cap increase/price decrease unnecessary here, would simply be to allow the tech points earned to remain at each level rather than resetting each time, then it makes leveling an item from start of game feel more worthwhile and less like your rolling the R&D lottery. If I could take a Mk X item and see its chance of quality upgrade steadily increase then I'd feel I had a decent chance each time, its tech points only resetting when it improves in quality it would make investing the TP boasters I'm hoarding seem worth it before lvl XIV.
Such a move would go a long way in my view of rendering any Cap raise debate moot.
This is actually related to my comment regarding Specialization points, about player versus Cryptic's expectations.
Much like how I don't think we're intended to grind to max out Specialization points, I don't think we're intended to grind to get our gear to Mk XIV. The cost to get to Mk XIII is fairly reasonable, but jumps up significantly when trying to get to Mk XIV. Keeping in mind that Dilithium prices are set relative to the Refinement Cap, and that prices are an indication of how long they expect/want us to take to max out our gear, and it looks like these are supposed to be very long term things.
The other way we can use Dilithium on the Upgrade system is to skip the timer - and since Refined Dilithium is essentially used to determine the minimum time required for something, and the timer is literally the time required for something, they're essentially allowing us to cash out our saved "time already waited" to skip the time we need to wait. I don't think it costs more than 2k Dil to skip 1 hour of timer, so we're actually profiting in that sense.
It looks like they wanted to not have us stuck in a rut of "everything is maxed out, nothing to do" again - which honestly was why pre-DR (if there weren't events) I barely did more than DOff and maybe a random queue if I felt like pew-pewing. They wanted to give us a very long term system of progression so we'd have things to work on until they could deliver more content. That's also why Specialization points take so much XP to accrue - they're not something we're supposed to grind and get in a month, they're supposed to be mild bonuses that we gradually unlock as we play. I personally don't grind and got a point every few days.
Aside from that same timer skipping, afaik the only way that the R&D system needs Dilithium is if we're making the unique gear (and the components required for it) at the end of the R&D system. That high end gear is analogous to Rep/Fleet gear, so the fact that it'll cost us dilithium is to be expected. I will admit I do not know the actual numbers off-hand (especially since those components also cost Dilithium).
I will note that any crafted gear aside from the unique gear should ideally be made at lower marks that don't require Dilithium (for best cost efficiency), which is probably an unintended consequences of how the R&D and Upgrade system works together. If we ignore that possibly unintended synergy, the costs to get Mk XII gear via either system are roughly in line with the costs to get equal-quality gear.
Again, I think anything past Mk XII are supposed to be long term things for us to slowly work on, not short term things we're supposed to grind to keep up. The fact that the benefits aren't that great unless you've maxed everything out seems to support that hypothesis.
From what I can tell, the difference between Mk XII VR/URs and Mk XIV non-Epics is only ~15%:
If a ship does 10k DPS, that's an extra 1.5k DPS. If a ship does 3k, that's an extra 500 DPS. It's not going to make a big difference, and if we look at that from the perspective of "we need to grind for max gear to do the new content", the cost:benefit ratio is horrendously out of tune, just like with the effort required to max out Specializations.
However, if we look at it from the perspective of "even after we've hit max level, there's extra bonuses we can sink excess resources into", then the cost:benefit ratio is understandable.
It comes down to a debate on what the game actually was, what it can be, and how can the improvement be implemented cost efficiently.
PWI saved STO from going under with the F2P model and leveling redesign. Unfortunately, the content took a hit. Their focus is for the F2P player running around between 1 to 50. In the years before PWI, all the resources for development was refining that leveling. With PWI implementation of the new F2P model, the leveling curve was thrown out the window in order to appeal to a new player. Now the scaling of the content from 1-50 outweighs the 50-60 end game content.
I understand the frustration of TRIBBLE end game HP sponges with no tactics, but the fact that STO is still operating and making money is the bottom line. Your objective opinion of why the game sucks is a result of the game still existing because of the PWI changes. If you are out of content because you have played every day since 2006, then take your thousands of playtime hours that you were entertained, thank the devs, and find something new.
Personally, I recommend deleting your end game have every ship characters and start over. Make it rewarding again. Or dive into the foundry and be creative. Contribute that way.