I just noticed that Praetor Taris used an Iconian gateway to get off Rator III. That means that Sela was fighting against the Iconian faction.
There's absolutely no evidence of that. All we know is that she disappeared. For all we know she had an escape hatch in her bedroom and booked passage offworld.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
There's Romulan rage these days? I thought the Republic was too busy kissing up to their Vulcan betters in attempts in making up with them? Oh, I mean, "Unification" with their Vulcan Fathers. Or licking Epohhs?
There's absolutely no evidence of that. All we know is that she disappeared. For all we know she had an escape hatch in her bedroom and booked passage offworld.
Taris? She definitely escaped 4028 with Iconian help. Not entirely sure why.
You know the part that really freaks me out about the Iconians, though? They have access to Andromeda.
That level of tech--intergalactic transport, likely via gateway--is just about the most lethal threat Admiral General Captain Awesomename and his/her coupterparts in the other two factions have ever faced.
On the plus side, they're moronic glass-cannon hammy posers, but hey, at least that makes it almost a fair fight.
Taris? She definitely escaped 4028 with Iconian help. Not entirely sure why.
We were talking about her escape from Nova Roma during the coup d'etat by Sela and Velal.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
What would Velal's reaction to "Sela wants her empire back" be, do you think?
Honestly my interpretation would be that he saw her as the lesser of two evils at the time and lived to regret it. He was stated to be a political opponent of Taris (his appointment by Tebok as second-in-command of the Galae s'Shiar Rihan was seen as a deliberate snub to her). And Taris was doing stupid things like blockading a planet with a plague that the Federation could cure easily if she'd asked, and trying to undermine the power of the Senate.
And then Sela goes and turns herself into the reincarnation of Vriha t'Rehu (the "Ruling Queen") and reduces the Senate to her personal rubber stamp. Wouldn't be the first time Romulan scheming backfired like that.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Honestly my interpretation would be that he saw her as the lesser of two evils at the time and lived to regret it. He was stated to be a political opponent of Taris (his appointment by Tebok as second-in-command of the Galae s'Shiar Rihan was seen as a deliberate snub to her). And Taris was doing stupid things like blockading a planet with a plague that the Federation could cure easily if she'd asked, and trying to undermine the power of the Senate.
And then Sela goes and turns herself into the reincarnation of Vriha t'Rehu and reduces the Senate to her personal rubber stamp. Wouldn't be the first time Romulan scheming backfired like that.
$10 says he tells her to eat sh*t and leaves her to the Republic.
He always seemed like a decent guy on DS9, having Sela go be an idiot all over the shiar would probably make him angry.
There's Romulan rage these days? I thought the Republic was too busy kissing up to their Vulcan betters in attempts in making up with them? Oh, I mean, "Unification" with their Vulcan Fathers. Or licking Epohhs?
I just noticed that Praetor Taris used an Iconian gateway to get off Rator III. That means that Sela was fighting against the Iconian faction.
It has been many a moon, but my impression of that mission was:
1. Taris was "just as surprised as we were" that there was an Iconian Gateway there.
2. Didn't she "randomly punch buttons" and jump?
3. Didn't Player X just "jump" as well to escape the facility's destruction?
So Taris is, so far, not an Iconian supporter.
Then back to my earlier post. Referencing Sela's "rescue" by Iconian ship during the fight in Cutting the Cord - when Hakeev bit it...
I'm still of the mind that Sela needs many "anti-Iconian" controls - such as extended imprisonment, testing, and observation.
Maybe, after she's sold out the Iconians and they are no longer a threat to the galaxy, will we allow her to live out her life freely, but exiled to a scenic spot such as Rura Penthe...
A Federation officer's viewpoint...
Detecting big-time "anti-old-school" bias here. NX? Lobi. TOS/TMP Connie? Super-promotion-box. (aka the two hardest ways to get ships) Excelsior & all 3 TNG "big hero" ships? C-Store. Please Equalize...
To rob a line: [quote: Mariemaia Kushrenada] Forum Posting is much like an endless waltz. The three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever. However, opinions will change upon the reading of my post.[/quote]
I haven't yet played the new Bonus Episode (because i've been working on mastery for ships and still have 2 episodes to do in DR so I have some idea of what the "unanswered questions" are), but the moment I see Sela, I'm going to start attacking (just as I tried to shoot Hakeev as I was being beamed out at the end of "Coliseum" -- whilst screaming "Noooooo! Damn you, send me back, send me back!").
It has been many a moon, but my impression of that mission was:
1. Taris was "just as surprised as we were" that there was an Iconian Gateway there.
2. Didn't she "randomly punch buttons" and jump?
3. Didn't Player X just "jump" as well to escape the facility's destruction?
So Taris is, so far, not an Iconian supporter.
Then back to my earlier post. Referencing Sela's "rescue" by Iconian ship during the fight in Cutting the Cord - when Hakeev bit it...
1)No she knew about it and had been operating there for quite some time. What she didn't know was that Romulus was going to be smashed
2)No, even her dialogue in the mission has her punching in a specific sequence. Something like, 'Lets see it was blue, blue," or similar
3)Yes the player set the gate to overload and had 3 seconds before it did so jumped in
If Sela is going to have a trial, I'm hoping it'll be an excuse for Cryptic to expand on New Romulus by perhaps giving us a view of the city as it might have become, along with the much-requested Senate chamber.
I'm happy to see Sela be here, just on account of the above becoming much more likely.
perhaps she will give the Romulans what they have always wanted..their own faction!!!
Given that for several seasons now, Cryptic has stopped making faction-specific story arcs in favor of the Federation POV style of writing, this will never happen.
LOR was the last time they put in real effort into faction specific arcs. Everything else afterwards hasn't been so. They've long stopped doing arcs for the KDF even before LOR.
If they can't even be bothered to make more KDF / Romulan story arcs, what makes you think they'll bother making Roms a truly separate faction?
If they can't be bothered to put in more time and effort into non-Fed faction art / models, what makes you think they'll make Roms a truly separate faction? I'd like to point to you the Delta Rising Pack:
Feds: 5 T6 ships (3 Intel, 2 Non-Intel)
KDF / Roms: 2 T6 ships each (1 Intel, 1 Non-Intel)
If Cryptic can't be bothered to put in more uniforms for the KDF & Roms, what makes you think they'll put more effort for a separate faction? Look at the uniforms you can acquire as Rom / KDF. Then look at the uniforms you can acquire as Fed.
I can go on and on and on. In short, the KDF was the last and only other truly separate faction STO has and will ever get. Everything else has been half-assed.
I'm happy to see Sela make a reappearance, but IMO it was a bit of an anticlimactic reappearance.
She only shows up at the very end of the episode and the conversation doesn't really reveal anything we didn't already know. And then we just arrest her and the episode ends.
I would have at least expected some choice in who to turn Sela in to, with the good option obviously being the federation, and the Klingons/Republic being less 'nice' options.
Kinda feels thown together to hastily tie up the Sela loose end, IMO. At this rate we'll just happen to bump into Taris hiding in a locked in a broom closet in some random system patrol.
Kinda feels thown together to hastily tie up the Sela loose end, IMO. At this rate we'll just happen to bump into Taris hiding in a locked in a broom closet in some random system patrol.
no itll be Donatra in the borg wreckage in the battlefield....
or was that Colonel Mustard in the kitchen with a candlestick
I'm going to say one thing that damns Sela forever.
She allowed Hakeev, and knew all about the Elachi and Iconians and was like Hakeev going to sell everybody down the river for a spot as a boot licker to the Iconians.
She could of stopped all of it anytime she wished. She merely dumped Hakeev as worthless cargo and meant to continue on that path wihtout him.
Sorry Sela sold out the romulans and probably the entire quadrant for the Iconians. SHE ALLOWED IT TO HAPPEN ON HER WATCH AND SUPPORTED IT.
Period, the end. That woman should not be allowed anywhere NEAR power and frankly should be put up on charges for TREASON against the RR and RSE.
That woman actively supported Hakeev and allowed what happened to happen. That's bare minimum Treason.
Well, about that I disagree a bit (not a suprise, I guess...;)). At first if I remember right it is by far not clear if Sela indeed know ALL about the Elachi and Iconians (including the role they had in the Hobus-catatstrophe), since it seems that Hakeev (and perhaps some other rogue elements inside the TS) betray her at least about some aspects.
And we had to remember that she acted under difficult conditions. She was (if I remember right) much under pressure by the Klingon invaders, Star Fleet not-so-secret-interventions, the Reman rebellion and D'Tan (and perhaps some other) uprising - and other events beyond her influence (for example the return of the Borg who indeed also operate in Romulan space at least once and than). Quiet a lot to handle for a single woman who could trust few - and as a desperate woman in desperate times she choosed desperate measures. That mean not that it was RIGHT to do so, but I think the circumstances should be kept in mind. And we have to remember that the Iconian influence in parts of the TS (not the whole organisation, but parts) was much older than her rule - I guess that must go back as far as before the Hobus-incident, perhaps even some years before that - we did not know en detail. Sure this influence was limited over most the time, but it is quiet a longe time. So the Iconian-influenced people inside the TS were very well prepared. And none of the leaders before Sela seem to have done a lot to remove them (as far as I know) - either because they did not know these people exist, were not powerful enough or choose not to do so because they want to cooperate with them. In any way it suggest, I think, that it would be not so easy as you may think to get rid of Hakeev and his allies. And I had more the impression that her relationship with Hakeev was not so smooth all the time.
Will you just please stop with the revisionism? Hakeev was not a "rogue element" within the Tal'Shiar. He was the bloody HEAD of the Tal'Shiar. The Tal'Shiar as an organization has been the enemy of the Romulan and Reman people since before Hakeev became its head. Were there those personnel of the Tal'Shiar who were ignorant of things? Of course. It is the nature of an intelligence body that there be differing levels of classified information. Were there, and are there, personnel within the Tal'Shiar who joined out of a desire to better the Romulan people? Of course; many motivations exist for a person to join any group. However, this does not mean that there are factions within the Tal'Shiar. Riov Janek's impunity is far more likely to have been due to family connections than any sort of following within the ranks (which a paranoid sociopath like Hakeev would have put down rapidly), and Janek herself even noted that she might soon be joining the prisoners in the brig of Listening Post Hephaestus on the moon Khoal in the Hfihar system.
Stop with the victim-playing, also. "Oh, the poor innocent Tal'Shiar flunkies who are being kept out of the Republic by the ebul D'Tan." This is ridiculous and transparent.
(Edit) Sure, it's all fun and games to Role Play a villain, until you realize that such behavior can have real-world consequences such as encouraging groups and individuals who are guilty of outrageous crimes against humanity. I would rather be responsible for encouraging heroism in the cause of liberty and human progress such as demonstrated by this young woman and this young man. (/Edit)
No, I think I will not stop, sorry, since some of the things you say are not more than just your opinion (which may be true, but may be not) and others ARE indeed wrong, I think (of course, that is also up to anyone else to decide if he want to follow you in that).
Of course it is nonsense that the TS was "the enemy of the Romulan and Reman people" - just because there is nothing like "the Romulan and Reman people" at first - beside you believe in some mystical collective entity (what may ok in-game, but out of play we know that this is of course not so simple). And while the TS was surely in opposition to a certain part of the Remans and their struggle for more rights and power, and had its problem with certain (mainly small) parts of the Romulan people (minorities, nothing more - and that often not because the EVEIL TS choose to do so, but because the TS follow the order of the Senate and the Praetor), the greatest part of the Romulan people surely had never real trouble with the TS and vice versa. I mean the TS is MADE OF the Romulan people, and not only thousands but much more of them (for example the secret fleet which was lost short before the Dominion-war must have had a lot of members - how many? 20.000? more? - and that was only a part of the TS, and of course every TS-member had also family members and loved ones and friends etc.). And the majority surely did join the TS to serve the Empire AND its people like Tovans ex-girlfriend or the Republican operative in Delta Rising. She made clear what the original TS was in her eyes, the TS which has lasted over more than decades, maybe even centuries, serving the Empire and doing what was necessary (sometimes better, sometimes not) - beside some parts and trends (AFTER HOBUS) she blamed for going wrong (she named Hakeev and Sela, but I think more the first than the second if I remember right). This show that even in HER eyes (and she sided with the Republic) until Hobus the things were a lot different and changed only after that step by step - and of course many members of the TS in later days may not be different from her.
And I think it is very hard to believe that there no are fractions inside the TS as you claim - it is mostly the case in such huge organizations (what did not mean that this are "noble" people by you definition, but they differ in opinion and tactics to Hakeev and his people) - and the organization is split in several branches which surely also have some problems with each other. We speak about a HUGE organization. Surely you want not to suggest that ALL of them were Iconian-hand-picked - that was a small minority (how many is difficult to say). That the TS was so quick - or better some of them - to offer D'Tan an agreement (which this stupid fool let go away) show that there were indeed several fractions. Some more flexible than others, I guess.
Janek was directly under Hakeevs command, so that she had little chance to do her own thing, but it is another thing with people who have a far more distant and powerful position, I think.
And I think it is very strange to claim "such behaviour can have real-world consequences such as encouraging groups and individuals who are guilty of outrageous crimes against humanity". Sorry, but this is in my eyes nonsense to 100 percent. At first it should be clear that groups who are indeed interested in doing such things of course not need much encouraging by a 100 percent fictional online-game its members nearly never play (and even one which has not the best rpg-elements I ever had seen, so that the influence on personal behaviour is limited even in the case of the most fragile characters, who have much problems to decide real and virtual world). This sound even less logical as if someone claim playing a Klingon in STO could transform people into mad-minded-knife-killers. Oh my god, what a amount of dragon-teeth STO has planted! We ALL are LOST!;)
Perhaps YOU want only to play people who 100 percent share the same values and believes than you. That is your right, and I guess few people will blame you for that if you treat is as that - your individual decision which you not want to force onto others. But please, don't moralize those who choose another way. We are not here to learn to be a brave citizen, since I guess 99,99 percent (or more) of us ARE that already (and some surely more than you or I). We are here to have some fun in playing a role - a Klingon role (as we define it - what may differ), a Federation role (dito) or a Romulan (dito). And that mean that we do things who we never would do as real persons. Or do you go around and blame Klingon players for advocating murder (since they could kill their doffs for incompetence or mutiny), slavery (since they could sell prisoners or even refugees and colonists) and the development of weapons of mass destruction (as Klingon you could work on several projects)?
And by the way, I do not believe that a TS- or Imperial char MUST be a "villain" (he could, of course, if the player decide to do so). That is in my eyes a very narrow word. He would not more "villain" than someone who play a proud Klingon Warrior, or a Orion Pirate or... a char with other values than your and mine (in normal life) who acts sometimes brutal. But villain? No, I do not think so. If you try to dive into a ROLE than you must accept that not everyone follow the same rules (or even know them).
(Edit) Sure, it's all fun and games to Role Play a villain, until you realize that such behavior can have real-world consequences such as encouraging groups and individuals who are guilty of outrageous crimes against humanity. I would rather be responsible for encouraging heroism in the cause of liberty and human progress such as demonstrated by this young woman and this young man. (/Edit)
It's all fun and games till you realize the very things you describe fit a faction I play, the KDF. whether it be the gulags of Rura penthe enslavement of weaker races or the almost successful genocide of a sentient race I,e the destruction of the tribbles homeworld (depending on viewpoint a pestilent species). or the Criminal activities such as slavery rings and worse run by the Orion syndicate.
I won't stop playing KDF cause of these things nor does anyone suggest not playing because of the danger of attacking people with a bat'leth in real life, but most people attack the RSE and give the KDF a pass for the same activities by saying it's their culture and shouldn't be judged by human standards. theres only one word that fits this It's called Hypocrisy.
(typing while cadicius posted before me and beat me to the punch)
For me it would be #1 TOS era Romulans. Very aggressive and you dare not show weakness to the Romulans or it will be exploited with war.
I would assume however that #2 would win in popularity. That era of Romulans were fleshed out far more between several different Star Trek shows.
Never underestimate the desire among some people to play 'Drizzt clone' analogues.
For some reason, certain folks are drawn to playing good/nice versions of fictional cultures/species normally/overwhelmingly depicted as being quite the opposite. They like the bad boys/girls but get squeamish about actually having to be a villain.
I don't really think the RR was ever really designed to appeal to even just Romulan fans first and foremost. The devs themselves said they made them good guys because bad guys don't sell well enough-it was designed top to bottom for mass market appeal.
I suspect that any such poll would have #5 'good guys' win out, because the fact of the matter is, the Republic was made to appeal to people who normally would be put off by a Romulan faction.
Never underestimate the desire among some people to play 'Drizzt clone' analogues.
For some reason, certain folks are drawn to playing good/nice versions of fictional cultures/species normally/overwhelmingly depicted as being quite the opposite. They like the bad boys/girls but get squeamish about actually having to be a villain.
I don't really think the RR was ever really designed to appeal to even just Romulan fans first and foremost. The devs themselves said they made them good guys because bad guys don't sell well enough-it was designed top to bottom for mass market appeal.
I suspect that any such poll would have #5 'good guys' win out, because the fact of the matter is, the Republic was made to appeal to people who normally would be put off by a Romulan faction.
The Rom Republic was designed to appeal to Feds
Why do you think there's been so many jokes around the boards referring to STO's Roms as "Fed v2.0" or something? Hahaha
Why do you think there's been so many jokes around the boards referring to STO's Roms as "Fed v2.0" or something? Hahaha
I agree. when the Republic was built from the ground up to appeal to the lowest common denominator, I wouldn't be surprised if its going to be popular.
I don't think we really needed a faction that could be described as "Federation, now with angsty righteous indignation!'
The devs themselves said they made them good guys because bad guys don't sell well enough-it was designed top to bottom for mass market appeal.
And yet.... see SWTOR, Imperial side is hugely popular and generally acknowledged as having the better plots. The defunct City of Heroes/Villains, red side always had plenty of people and teaming was never hard, after the alignment system was added, plenty of 'Heroes' fell from grace and embraced varying levels of 'evil' and many Villains ceased to be 100% evil. Im sure there are other examples I could pull out to disprove the horsepucky that 'Villain Factions Don't Sell' but its a moot point since Cryptic seems to believe it as gospel. Whats worse is that, for them, the word antagonist seems to be defined as cartoonish idiot villain. You can have a faction or character that is antagonistic without being evil. Look at Tholians in STO, for the *most* part they aren't really evil, just acting in their own interests which are counter to the interests of anyone not Tholian. Yes there are a few of their plots that could be called evil but, imo, much of that is just lazy writing.
Comments
There's absolutely no evidence of that. All we know is that she disappeared. For all we know she had an escape hatch in her bedroom and booked passage offworld.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
hahahahahaha well said
Taris? She definitely escaped 4028 with Iconian help. Not entirely sure why.
You know the part that really freaks me out about the Iconians, though? They have access to Andromeda.
That level of tech--intergalactic transport, likely via gateway--is just about the most lethal threat Admiral General Captain Awesomename and his/her coupterparts in the other two factions have ever faced.
On the plus side, they're moronic glass-cannon hammy posers, but hey, at least that makes it almost a fair fight.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
Ah. I see.
What would Velal's reaction to "Sela wants her empire back" be, do you think?
Honestly my interpretation would be that he saw her as the lesser of two evils at the time and lived to regret it. He was stated to be a political opponent of Taris (his appointment by Tebok as second-in-command of the Galae s'Shiar Rihan was seen as a deliberate snub to her). And Taris was doing stupid things like blockading a planet with a plague that the Federation could cure easily if she'd asked, and trying to undermine the power of the Senate.
And then Sela goes and turns herself into the reincarnation of Vriha t'Rehu (the "Ruling Queen") and reduces the Senate to her personal rubber stamp. Wouldn't be the first time Romulan scheming backfired like that.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
$10 says he tells her to eat sh*t and leaves her to the Republic.
He always seemed like a decent guy on DS9, having Sela go be an idiot all over the shiar would probably make him angry.
Thanks for being the voice of my thoughts. :P
It has been many a moon, but my impression of that mission was:
1. Taris was "just as surprised as we were" that there was an Iconian Gateway there.
2. Didn't she "randomly punch buttons" and jump?
3. Didn't Player X just "jump" as well to escape the facility's destruction?
So Taris is, so far, not an Iconian supporter.
Then back to my earlier post. Referencing Sela's "rescue" by Iconian ship during the fight in Cutting the Cord - when Hakeev bit it...
I'm still of the mind that Sela needs many "anti-Iconian" controls - such as extended imprisonment, testing, and observation.
Maybe, after she's sold out the Iconians and they are no longer a threat to the galaxy, will we allow her to live out her life freely, but exiled to a scenic spot such as Rura Penthe...
A Federation officer's viewpoint...
To rob a line: [quote: Mariemaia Kushrenada] Forum Posting is much like an endless waltz. The three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever. However, opinions will change upon the reading of my post.[/quote]
2)No, even her dialogue in the mission has her punching in a specific sequence. Something like, 'Lets see it was blue, blue," or similar
3)Yes the player set the gate to overload and had 3 seconds before it did so jumped in
I'm happy to see Sela be here, just on account of the above becoming much more likely.
Given that for several seasons now, Cryptic has stopped making faction-specific story arcs in favor of the Federation POV style of writing, this will never happen.
LOR was the last time they put in real effort into faction specific arcs. Everything else afterwards hasn't been so. They've long stopped doing arcs for the KDF even before LOR.
If they can't even be bothered to make more KDF / Romulan story arcs, what makes you think they'll bother making Roms a truly separate faction?
If they can't be bothered to put in more time and effort into non-Fed faction art / models, what makes you think they'll make Roms a truly separate faction? I'd like to point to you the Delta Rising Pack:
Feds: 5 T6 ships (3 Intel, 2 Non-Intel)
KDF / Roms: 2 T6 ships each (1 Intel, 1 Non-Intel)
If Cryptic can't be bothered to put in more uniforms for the KDF & Roms, what makes you think they'll put more effort for a separate faction? Look at the uniforms you can acquire as Rom / KDF. Then look at the uniforms you can acquire as Fed.
I can go on and on and on. In short, the KDF was the last and only other truly separate faction STO has and will ever get. Everything else has been half-assed.
She only shows up at the very end of the episode and the conversation doesn't really reveal anything we didn't already know. And then we just arrest her and the episode ends.
I would have at least expected some choice in who to turn Sela in to, with the good option obviously being the federation, and the Klingons/Republic being less 'nice' options.
Kinda feels thown together to hastily tie up the Sela loose end, IMO. At this rate we'll just happen to bump into Taris hiding in a locked in a broom closet in some random system patrol.
no itll be Donatra in the borg wreckage in the battlefield....
or was that Colonel Mustard in the kitchen with a candlestick
Well, about that I disagree a bit (not a suprise, I guess...;)). At first if I remember right it is by far not clear if Sela indeed know ALL about the Elachi and Iconians (including the role they had in the Hobus-catatstrophe), since it seems that Hakeev (and perhaps some other rogue elements inside the TS) betray her at least about some aspects.
And we had to remember that she acted under difficult conditions. She was (if I remember right) much under pressure by the Klingon invaders, Star Fleet not-so-secret-interventions, the Reman rebellion and D'Tan (and perhaps some other) uprising - and other events beyond her influence (for example the return of the Borg who indeed also operate in Romulan space at least once and than). Quiet a lot to handle for a single woman who could trust few - and as a desperate woman in desperate times she choosed desperate measures. That mean not that it was RIGHT to do so, but I think the circumstances should be kept in mind. And we have to remember that the Iconian influence in parts of the TS (not the whole organisation, but parts) was much older than her rule - I guess that must go back as far as before the Hobus-incident, perhaps even some years before that - we did not know en detail. Sure this influence was limited over most the time, but it is quiet a longe time. So the Iconian-influenced people inside the TS were very well prepared. And none of the leaders before Sela seem to have done a lot to remove them (as far as I know) - either because they did not know these people exist, were not powerful enough or choose not to do so because they want to cooperate with them. In any way it suggest, I think, that it would be not so easy as you may think to get rid of Hakeev and his allies. And I had more the impression that her relationship with Hakeev was not so smooth all the time.
Stop with the victim-playing, also. "Oh, the poor innocent Tal'Shiar flunkies who are being kept out of the Republic by the ebul D'Tan." This is ridiculous and transparent.
(Edit) Sure, it's all fun and games to Role Play a villain, until you realize that such behavior can have real-world consequences such as encouraging groups and individuals who are guilty of outrageous crimes against humanity. I would rather be responsible for encouraging heroism in the cause of liberty and human progress such as demonstrated by this young woman and this young man. (/Edit)
Of course it is nonsense that the TS was "the enemy of the Romulan and Reman people" - just because there is nothing like "the Romulan and Reman people" at first - beside you believe in some mystical collective entity (what may ok in-game, but out of play we know that this is of course not so simple). And while the TS was surely in opposition to a certain part of the Remans and their struggle for more rights and power, and had its problem with certain (mainly small) parts of the Romulan people (minorities, nothing more - and that often not because the EVEIL TS choose to do so, but because the TS follow the order of the Senate and the Praetor), the greatest part of the Romulan people surely had never real trouble with the TS and vice versa. I mean the TS is MADE OF the Romulan people, and not only thousands but much more of them (for example the secret fleet which was lost short before the Dominion-war must have had a lot of members - how many? 20.000? more? - and that was only a part of the TS, and of course every TS-member had also family members and loved ones and friends etc.). And the majority surely did join the TS to serve the Empire AND its people like Tovans ex-girlfriend or the Republican operative in Delta Rising. She made clear what the original TS was in her eyes, the TS which has lasted over more than decades, maybe even centuries, serving the Empire and doing what was necessary (sometimes better, sometimes not) - beside some parts and trends (AFTER HOBUS) she blamed for going wrong (she named Hakeev and Sela, but I think more the first than the second if I remember right). This show that even in HER eyes (and she sided with the Republic) until Hobus the things were a lot different and changed only after that step by step - and of course many members of the TS in later days may not be different from her.
And I think it is very hard to believe that there no are fractions inside the TS as you claim - it is mostly the case in such huge organizations (what did not mean that this are "noble" people by you definition, but they differ in opinion and tactics to Hakeev and his people) - and the organization is split in several branches which surely also have some problems with each other. We speak about a HUGE organization. Surely you want not to suggest that ALL of them were Iconian-hand-picked - that was a small minority (how many is difficult to say). That the TS was so quick - or better some of them - to offer D'Tan an agreement (which this stupid fool let go away) show that there were indeed several fractions. Some more flexible than others, I guess.
Janek was directly under Hakeevs command, so that she had little chance to do her own thing, but it is another thing with people who have a far more distant and powerful position, I think.
And I think it is very strange to claim "such behaviour can have real-world consequences such as encouraging groups and individuals who are guilty of outrageous crimes against humanity". Sorry, but this is in my eyes nonsense to 100 percent. At first it should be clear that groups who are indeed interested in doing such things of course not need much encouraging by a 100 percent fictional online-game its members nearly never play (and even one which has not the best rpg-elements I ever had seen, so that the influence on personal behaviour is limited even in the case of the most fragile characters, who have much problems to decide real and virtual world). This sound even less logical as if someone claim playing a Klingon in STO could transform people into mad-minded-knife-killers. Oh my god, what a amount of dragon-teeth STO has planted! We ALL are LOST!;)
Perhaps YOU want only to play people who 100 percent share the same values and believes than you. That is your right, and I guess few people will blame you for that if you treat is as that - your individual decision which you not want to force onto others. But please, don't moralize those who choose another way. We are not here to learn to be a brave citizen, since I guess 99,99 percent (or more) of us ARE that already (and some surely more than you or I). We are here to have some fun in playing a role - a Klingon role (as we define it - what may differ), a Federation role (dito) or a Romulan (dito). And that mean that we do things who we never would do as real persons. Or do you go around and blame Klingon players for advocating murder (since they could kill their doffs for incompetence or mutiny), slavery (since they could sell prisoners or even refugees and colonists) and the development of weapons of mass destruction (as Klingon you could work on several projects)?
And by the way, I do not believe that a TS- or Imperial char MUST be a "villain" (he could, of course, if the player decide to do so). That is in my eyes a very narrow word. He would not more "villain" than someone who play a proud Klingon Warrior, or a Orion Pirate or... a char with other values than your and mine (in normal life) who acts sometimes brutal. But villain? No, I do not think so. If you try to dive into a ROLE than you must accept that not everyone follow the same rules (or even know them).
It's all fun and games till you realize the very things you describe fit a faction I play, the KDF. whether it be the gulags of Rura penthe enslavement of weaker races or the almost successful genocide of a sentient race I,e the destruction of the tribbles homeworld (depending on viewpoint a pestilent species). or the Criminal activities such as slavery rings and worse run by the Orion syndicate.
I won't stop playing KDF cause of these things nor does anyone suggest not playing because of the danger of attacking people with a bat'leth in real life, but most people attack the RSE and give the KDF a pass for the same activities by saying it's their culture and shouldn't be judged by human standards. theres only one word that fits this It's called Hypocrisy.
(typing while cadicius posted before me and beat me to the punch)
Now stop. Please. This fight is well beyond flogging a dead horse and starting to break the withered husks of the horse skeleton's bones.
Just stop. Please. And protogoth, don't take the obvious flame bait.
^this... lets not derail yet another thread with a constant flame war between proto and her enemies
Here are the suggestions:
1) 23.century Romulans -"bad guys"- male commander, Naclus, Decius
-"neutral guys"- female commander
-"good girls"- Dar Caithlin, Saavik
2) 24.century Romulans- "bad guys" - Sela, Suran, Nero, Koval (but in cooperation with Federation), Vreenak ?, Tala'ura
"good guys"- Spock's group, Jarok , Bochra , Cretak, Telek R'Mor
"neutral"- Donatra , Tomalak, Taris , Varel, Toreth , Tebok
3) 22. century Romulans only bad guys Valdore and Vrax
4) 25. century Romulans "bad guys"- Sela, Hakeev, Taris , Charva, Janek
"good guys"- D'Tan , Temer , Tovan Khev
"neutral"- Obisek , probably Kererek
For me it would be #1 TOS era Romulans. Very aggressive and you dare not show weakness to the Romulans or it will be exploited with war.
I would assume however that #2 would win in popularity. That era of Romulans were fleshed out far more between several different Star Trek shows.
For some reason, certain folks are drawn to playing good/nice versions of fictional cultures/species normally/overwhelmingly depicted as being quite the opposite. They like the bad boys/girls but get squeamish about actually having to be a villain.
I don't really think the RR was ever really designed to appeal to even just Romulan fans first and foremost. The devs themselves said they made them good guys because bad guys don't sell well enough-it was designed top to bottom for mass market appeal.
I suspect that any such poll would have #5 'good guys' win out, because the fact of the matter is, the Republic was made to appeal to people who normally would be put off by a Romulan faction.
The Rom Republic was designed to appeal to Feds
Why do you think there's been so many jokes around the boards referring to STO's Roms as "Fed v2.0" or something? Hahaha
I don't think we really needed a faction that could be described as "Federation, now with angsty righteous indignation!'
And yet.... see SWTOR, Imperial side is hugely popular and generally acknowledged as having the better plots. The defunct City of Heroes/Villains, red side always had plenty of people and teaming was never hard, after the alignment system was added, plenty of 'Heroes' fell from grace and embraced varying levels of 'evil' and many Villains ceased to be 100% evil. Im sure there are other examples I could pull out to disprove the horsepucky that 'Villain Factions Don't Sell' but its a moot point since Cryptic seems to believe it as gospel. Whats worse is that, for them, the word antagonist seems to be defined as cartoonish idiot villain. You can have a faction or character that is antagonistic without being evil. Look at Tholians in STO, for the *most* part they aren't really evil, just acting in their own interests which are counter to the interests of anyone not Tholian. Yes there are a few of their plots that could be called evil but, imo, much of that is just lazy writing.