test content
What is the Arc Client?
Install Arc

Guardian Cruiser help

2»

Comments

  • darkjeffdarkjeff Member Posts: 2,590 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    guilli88 wrote: »
    As for intel abilities, I don't use any at all. If I replace any boff with intel boff I lose either a lot of damage or survivability.

    What? Intel abilities are amazing! You don't really give up anything when it's just the 5th and 6th Eng station:

    Ens Uni: TT1
    LCdr Tac: TT1 / FAW2 / FAW3

    Lt Intel: OSS1 / OSS2
    Cdr Eng: ET1 / EPtS2 / EPtW3 / Aux2SIF3

    LCdr Sci: HE1 / TSS2 / GW1

    3 DCEs, 1 Grav Sci, 7 arrays + KCB, CC Deflector, Nuka Engines and Shields, and I guarantee you'll be pulling +15k. If you don't, I'll build it and parse it myself.

    OSS1/2 means your GW1 and FAW are at ~160 power, which is amazing. One copy of ET1 is sufficient to counter OSS disabling a subsystem.

    2xTT1, Aux2SIF3, HE1, TSS2 with an Engineering captain means you'll also be tanking damage like a boss. Toss on 1-2 SDOs, and turn BFI into another shield heal (so a total of TSS, RSF, and BFI for shield healing).
  • widdleyweewiddleywee Member Posts: 6 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    darkjeff wrote: »
    What? Intel abilities are amazing! You don't really give up anything when it's just the 5th and 6th Eng station:

    Ens Uni: TT1
    LCdr Tac: TT1 / FAW2 / FAW3

    Lt Intel: OSS1 / OSS2
    Cdr Eng: ET1 / EPtS2 / EPtW3 / Aux2SIF3

    LCdr Sci: HE1 / TSS2 / GW1

    3 DCEs, 1 Grav Sci, 7 arrays + KCB, CC Deflector, Nuka Engines and Shields, and I guarantee you'll be pulling +15k. If you don't, I'll build it and parse it myself.

    OSS1/2 means your GW1 and FAW are at ~160 power, which is amazing. One copy of ET1 is sufficient to counter OSS disabling a subsystem.

    2xTT1, Aux2SIF3, HE1, TSS2 with an Engineering captain means you'll also be tanking damage like a boss. Toss on 1-2 SDOs, and turn BFI into another shield heal (so a total of TSS, RSF, and BFI for shield healing).

    I'm interested in trying this build, out of curiosity what power settings do you use and what is your skill build?
  • darkjeffdarkjeff Member Posts: 2,590 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    I'm only doing the ships for the Mastery trait unlock, so I've just been leaving them on 100/50/25/25.

    My skill build is fairly standard, Rank 9 in the 6 beamboat relevant Tactical skills, Rank 6 in the Performance/Potential/Efficiency skills, Rank 9 in the hull/shield heal/max skills, Rank 3 in Batteries 'cause of EPS Manifold Efficiency trait, Rank 9 in Flow Caps 'cause of Leech.
  • tyer032392tyer032392 Member Posts: 5 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    I only used the Guardian cruiser to get the desperate repairs trait, as it is very handy in situations where it will restore around 50% of your health and shield points in the star ships. I do wish we could adapt the particle conversion matrix to our Tier 5-U ships though.
  • rragadonrragadon Member Posts: 36 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    darkjeff wrote: »
    What? Intel abilities are amazing! You don't really give up anything when it's just the 5th and 6th Eng station:

    Ens Uni: TT1
    LCdr Tac: TT1 / FAW2 / FAW3

    Lt Intel: OSS1 / OSS2
    Cdr Eng: ET1 / EPtS2 / EPtW3 / Aux2SIF3

    LCdr Sci: HE1 / TSS2 / GW1

    3 DCEs, 1 Grav Sci, 7 arrays + KCB, CC Deflector, Nuka Engines and Shields, and I guarantee you'll be pulling +15k. If you don't, I'll build it and parse it myself.

    OSS1/2 means your GW1 and FAW are at ~160 power, which is amazing. One copy of ET1 is sufficient to counter OSS disabling a subsystem.

    2xTT1, Aux2SIF3, HE1, TSS2 with an Engineering captain means you'll also be tanking damage like a boss. Toss on 1-2 SDOs, and turn BFI into another shield heal (so a total of TSS, RSF, and BFI for shield healing).

    Ok, I finally tried this. Not verbatim but mostly. I'm not using the full Itemization suggested here as I don't have it (yet), however I tested dps in a controlled environment (Japori, to optimize dps boost from FAW) with two different builds, switching only doffs and BOFF skills.
    To keep things more equal, I didn't use reputation active skills in either case. Passive traits were unmodified (and mostly defensive at any rate).
    Power distribution was, in both cases, 100/50/15/35

    The first build was a fairly standard A2Bat build:
    http://skillplanner.stoacademy.com/?build=geckoobacguardiana2bat_0
    With 3 technicians, 1 blue two greens, one green DCE and one... Something? nothing relevant dps wise anyway

    The second was your own build, with just a slightly different setup for the science boff:
    http://skillplanner.stoacademy.com/?build=geckoobacguardiandualoss_0
    with 3 DCEs, one blue two greens, one purple gravi and one EWO with the CD reduction for BFAW

    I only made one test run with each (I know, but time is what it is) and the result is that in both cases I hit pretty much spot on 10.5k dps, +/- 5%. The difference frankly was negligible and the dual OSS build felt less fluid, as the continuous A2B CD reduction made much more easy to string together skills (The single OSS I had also benefitted from said CD reduction).

    The dual OSS had me often fall to 70ish weapon power as both OSS and EPTW was down. Tactical team was often out of cooldown while neither BFAW was and so I had to decide whether to wait for BFAW or to just go with it as soon as it was out of CD.

    That said, while dual OSS felt less pleasant to play, it did offer pretty much the same dps as A2Bat while at the same time increasing by leaps and bound the tankiness. A2SIF is simply great, even without crazily buffed auxiliary power.

    I put the survivability to the test doing an infected advanced. I got lucky with the group (lowest dpser had some 8k at the end of the match... 3 of us, me included, were very close together at around 9-10k and the last one doing some 20k iirc, incredibily no scimitars), but I also tanked and healed the most by a HUGE amount, tanking the tact cube at the end and some spheres too without dying even once (something rare).

    So all in all the build is promising... If nothing else it feels tanky enough for what is after all a jack of all trades cruiser, yet still bringing respectable dps to the table. I'm definitely going to work on this and check again with better equipment. However I suspect that from a purely dps standpoint, A2B would win out with maxed DOFFs, as maxing doffs on the other build won't provide much of an improvement (although it would diminish the downtime between usages of EPTW)
  • darkjeffdarkjeff Member Posts: 2,590 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    rragadon wrote: »
    However I suspect that from a purely dps standpoint, A2B would win out with maxed DOFFs, as maxing doffs on the other build won't provide much of an improvement (although it would diminish the downtime between usages of EPTW)

    Er, having reliable (+95%) uptime on both EPtX abilities due to DOffs is in fact what is called a "Drake" build. You should have no downtime on either EPtX abilities.

    Further, you can't just ignore the traits - the primary downside of A2B is the loss to Aux Power, and the reason DPS League builds usually don't do A2B whenever possible is because of the T4 Nukara traits that scale off Aux.

    Edit: Looked at your modified build. In a word: Um.

    Double Tactical Team is a defensive measure to (near) constantly keep shields distributed. Science Team is thus unnecessary, because it generally takes a while for any one facing to drop as a result, and TSS is a much stronger shield heal overall when you don't need one burst of healing. You don't sync TT with anything, you just stick it on your spacebar.

    My instincts tell me going APB/FAW is also going to have less DPS than FAW/FAW. I'll build it and parse it this weekend, it'll give me something to do.
  • rragadonrragadon Member Posts: 36 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    darkjeff wrote: »
    Er, having reliable (+95%) uptime on both EPtX abilities due to DOffs is in fact what is called a "Drake" build. You should have no downtime on either EPtX abilities.

    Further, you can't just ignore the traits - the primary downside of A2B is the loss to Aux Power, and the reason DPS League builds usually don't do A2B whenever possible is because of the T4 Nukara traits that scale off Aux.

    Edit: Looked at your modified build. In a word: Um.

    Double Tactical Team is a defensive measure to (near) constantly keep shields distributed. Science Team is thus unnecessary, because it generally takes a while for any one facing to drop as a result, and TSS is a much stronger shield heal overall when you don't need one burst of healing. You don't sync TT with anything, you just stick it on your spacebar.

    My instincts tell me going APB/FAW is also going to have less DPS than FAW/FAW. I'll build it and parse it this weekend, it'll give me something to do.

    Science team is for the debuff cleanse rather than the shield heal. In fact, I hardly ever need a shield heal. Automated reinforcement + tactical team and cycling EPTS is usually enough, with the particle conversion matrix, desperated repairs, rotate shield frequency and miracle worker taking care of the exceptions.

    Your point about the nukara trait is true, forgot about that, however I must point out that I DID have the offensive nukara trait slotted in both cases, so its influence and higher aux power is already taken into account.

    Ofc having no downtime on either EPTx is part of the build, as is having maxed technician for an aux2b. However, maxed aux2b works well in collaboration with OSS as it shortens the CD of THAT too, while "Drake" build works only on those particular skills. I simply tested using similar DCE setup as the technicians I had available for A2B. Since getting 3 purples of either is quite costly, I haven't tried that yet.
  • thisslerthissler Member Posts: 2,055 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    darkjeff wrote: »
    Er, having reliable (+95%) uptime on both EPtX abilities due to DOffs is in fact what is called a "Drake" build. You should have no downtime on either EPtX abilities.

    I remember when they used to call it 'garbage'. Guys in the ultra outdated Dragon? thread raged a bit at me.

    Gee I guess they had a change of heart and gave it a nicer name. Well that was a long time ago.

    Thank you for my second humorous bit on one week.

    Cheers!
  • darkjeffdarkjeff Member Posts: 2,590 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    darkjeff wrote: »
    My instincts tell me going APB/FAW is also going to have less DPS than FAW/FAW. I'll build it and parse it this weekend, it'll give me something to do.

    1st trial, a group from PESTF:

    CombatLogReader—Infected Space[6:18]— Dmg(DPS) —Zhaelyn 8,096,043(21,940) Haku 7,519,923(20,106) Aeren 6,485,067(17,574) ALDACON 3,151,674(8,337) Galeighan 2,314,543(6,221)

    As I thought, easy +15k.

    Edit 1: Ran it again, with 10k people:

    CombatLogReader—Infected Space[3:45]— Dmg(DPS) —Walter Bis 8,737,337(39,357) Strix 7,040,353(31,430) Demetrius 5,057,471(22,477) Darkos 4,707,159(20,920) Aeren 4,072,944(18,101)

    Totally messed up that run, poorly timed stuff and was stuck plonking away at one surviving sphere when everybody ran off to the right. :(

    Edit 2: One more time, with 10k people:

    CombatLogReader—Infected Space[3:56]— Dmg(DPS) —Norvo 7,657,213(32,445) Menoetius 6,920,078(29,322) Aeren 4,936,561(21,006) Tenvok 4,486,503(19,255) Nek'Var 3,668,825(15,746)

    21k! I think my theoretical build works pretty well in practice. :P
  • gavinrunebladegavinruneblade Member Posts: 3,894 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    rragadon wrote: »
    . I simply tested using similar DCE setup as the technicians I had available for A2B. Since getting 3 purples of either is quite costly, I haven't tried that yet.

    Purple technicians are free:
    http://sto.gamepedia.com/Ten_of_Ten_(Technician)
  • rragadonrragadon Member Posts: 36 Arc User
    edited November 2014

    Nope, ten of ten is a projectile weapons officer.
  • rragadonrragadon Member Posts: 36 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    darkjeff wrote: »
    1st trial, a group from PESTF:

    CombatLogReader—Infected Space[6:18]— Dmg(DPS) —Zhaelyn 8,096,043(21,940) Haku 7,519,923(20,106) Aeren 6,485,067(17,574) ALDACON 3,151,674(8,337) Galeighan 2,314,543(6,221)

    As I thought, easy +15k.

    Edit 1: Ran it again, with 10k people:

    CombatLogReader—Infected Space[3:45]— Dmg(DPS) —Walter Bis 8,737,337(39,357) Strix 7,040,353(31,430) Demetrius 5,057,471(22,477) Darkos 4,707,159(20,920) Aeren 4,072,944(18,101)

    Totally messed up that run, poorly timed stuff and was stuck plonking away at one surviving sphere when everybody ran off to the right. :(

    Edit 2: One more time, with 10k people:

    CombatLogReader—Infected Space[3:56]— Dmg(DPS) —Norvo 7,657,213(32,445) Menoetius 6,920,078(29,322) Aeren 4,936,561(21,006) Tenvok 4,486,503(19,255) Nek'Var 3,668,825(15,746)

    21k! I think my theoretical build works pretty well in practice. :P

    What gear though?
  • lan451lan451 Member Posts: 3,386 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    rragadon wrote: »
    Nope, ten of ten is a projectile weapons officer.

    Nope, Ten of Ten is a technician. I have 3 of them that I farmed for free from B'Tran.

    He also messed up the link a bit, here's the fixed one:

    http://sto.gamepedia.com/Ten_of_Ten_%28Technician%29

    Edit: Oh looks like Cryptic saw fit to make two different Ten of Tens.

    http://sto.gamepedia.com/Ten_of_Ten_%28Projectile_Weapons_Officer%29

    Looks like both are correct. The one you want is the one from B'Tran.
    JWZrsUV.jpg
    Mine Trap Supporter
  • darkjeffdarkjeff Member Posts: 2,590 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    rragadon wrote: »
    What gear though?

    1x RomPlas Mk XIV [Acc][CrtD]x2
    5x RomPlas Mk XIV [CrtD]x2
    1x RomPlas Mk XII [Acc]x2
    1x Kinetic Cutting Beam Mk XIV

    CC Deflector Mk XIV
    Nukara Engines Mk XII
    Fleet Plasma-Integrated Warp Core Mk XIV [AMP][W->A]
    Nukara Shields Mk XII

    Taychokinetic Converter Mk XIV
    Bioneural Infuction Circuits Mk XIV
    Zero-Point Energy Conduit Mk XIV
    Assimilated Module Mk XIV
    Plasmonic Leech
    2x Fleet Flow Caps [+Pla] Mk XIV
    3x Vulnerability Locators Mk XIV

    Only two things upgraded in quality when I bought them to Mk XIV, that one array and the BIC. Sad.
  • rragadonrragadon Member Posts: 36 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    lan451 wrote: »
    Nope, Ten of Ten is a technician. I have 3 of them that I farmed for free from B'Tran.

    He also messed up the link a bit, here's the fixed one:

    http://sto.gamepedia.com/Ten_of_Ten_%28Technician%29

    Edit: Oh looks like Cryptic saw fit to make two different Ten of Tens.

    http://sto.gamepedia.com/Ten_of_Ten_%28Projectile_Weapons_Officer%29

    Looks like both are correct. The one you want is the one from B'Tran.

    Ah yeah... Well the B'Tran technician I know of (though, can you get 3 of the same?) but while it is indeed "free" it is by no means easy to get, as tied to the whims of the RNGods...
    darkjeff wrote: »
    1x RomPlas Mk XIV [Acc][CrtD]x2
    5x RomPlas Mk XIV [CrtD]x2
    1x RomPlas Mk XII [Acc]x2
    1x Kinetic Cutting Beam Mk XIV

    CC Deflector Mk XIV
    Nukara Engines Mk XII
    Fleet Plasma-Integrated Warp Core Mk XIV [AMP][W->A]
    Nukara Shields Mk XII

    Taychokinetic Converter Mk XIV
    Bioneural Infuction Circuits Mk XIV
    Zero-Point Energy Conduit Mk XIV
    Assimilated Module Mk XIV
    Plasmonic Leech
    2x Fleet Flow Caps [+Pla] Mk XIV
    3x Vulnerability Locators Mk XIV

    Only two things upgraded in quality when I bought them to Mk XIV, that one array and the BIC. Sad.

    Well that's some gear, My tests were with mostly mkXII stuff and decidedly less universal consoles. Aren't you a bit low on defenses though? No resist consoles. I suppose you'd get more dps out of that but I do enjoy being basically immortal.
  • theonlyhamster#0636 theonlyhamster Member Posts: 126 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    The guardian gives users a chance to balance it according to the environment its in Sci can help with shield heals and the fact can deal massive damage along with a ensign uni to give it flexibility, but its still limited compared to the avenger and assault cruiser

    Ps can anyone help me,
    http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?p=20593751#post20593751
  • darkjeffdarkjeff Member Posts: 2,590 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    rragadon wrote: »
    Ah yeah... Well the B'Tran technician I know of (though, can you get 3 of the same?) but while it is indeed "free" it is by no means easy to get, as tied to the whims of the RNGods...
    Yes, you can. I think I have like 8 of that Andorian Security Officer who's perfect for confiscating contraband.
    rragadon wrote: »
    Well that's some gear, My tests were with mostly mkXII stuff and decidedly less universal consoles.

    Well, pre-upgrade and post-upgrade, my JHDC went up about 9k, ~5k of which was from hangers. So if we assume around 5k from the equipment upgrades, that would put my Guardian at 15k with Mk XII gear.

    (This ignores the fact that my JHDC also has one more console as a T5-U.)
    rragadon wrote: »
    Aren't you a bit low on defenses though? No resist consoles. I suppose you'd get more dps out of that but I do enjoy being basically immortal.

    Keeping in mind that both my Rom and Fed are Engineers (and thus have Miracle Worker), my Guardian is effectively immortal, compared to my JHDC, and it's tougher than my (24k) T5 FACR. In fact, of all the ships I've flown over the years, it's second only to my old Sci Oddy.

    Frankly, resist consoles are worthless (unless you're making a dedicated tank).
    I already have 3 ranks in the two relevant skills, giving ~8 DRM. I've got Aux2SIF3 firing every 15s with +100 Aux Power, giving me over 48 DRM for 10s. So that's ~35% DR.
    Then if my hull is actually falling (usually around 80% hull), I'm using Hazard Emitters and Engineering Fleet, giving another 20 DRM and 26.6 DRM, putting me at ~48% DR.

    Then you have to remember that this is only applying to the 5% of incoming damage that's bleeding through the Nukara shields. Between EPtS2, TSS2, and RSF, I don't even get a chance to use my large shield batteries.

    Then, even if they take down my shields and bang up my hull to under 50%, that's when I pop the Subspace Field Modulator and Miracle Worker.

    So +22 or whatever DRM from a resist console is really unnecessary. :P
  • rragadonrragadon Member Posts: 36 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    Well I find myself low on health quite more often, mostly due to FAW aggroing the multiple spheres in ISA.

    15k at mk12 may be right if you consider the additional consoles you have (I suspect plasmonich leech and the elite warp core are going to play a major part of that)

    However I don't understand the point of the flow cap consoles... Are those the embassy ones? I guess some + plasma damage helps but why flow cap?
  • lan451lan451 Member Posts: 3,386 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    Flow caps makes plasmonic leech much more effective.
    JWZrsUV.jpg
    Mine Trap Supporter
  • rragadonrragadon Member Posts: 36 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    lan451 wrote: »
    Flow caps makes plasmonic leech much more effective.

    Ah of course... It's quite pointless then if I don't have that console then, correct?
  • darkjeffdarkjeff Member Posts: 2,590 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    Correct, without Leech you'd be better off with something else. The -Threat also helps. :P

    With regards to FAW pissing off the spheres, that's really the difference a decent group makes. If everybody's firing on the spheres, you're not going to get aggro on all the spheres.

    Note that in all three runs, including the one with PESTF, I didn't do the most DPS. That generally means I wouldn't have had all the threat.
  • dragonsbrethrendragonsbrethren Member Posts: 1,854 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    Here's my Guardian:

    http://skillplanner.stoacademy.com/?build=tharonguardian_8030

    Nothing too special there (the non-fleet phasers were dirt cheap mk X [CrtD]x2 [mod] ones I took up) and the photon was a [Crtd]x2 [Pen] I crafted and got incredibly luck on upgrade. Doffs are on the Notes tab.

    It does plenty of damage for Advanced, especially for being a canon build, while being reasonably survivable. Unfortunately, it's based around the Phantom's brokenly good Reciprocity trait, so if you don't have access to that, you'll need to do something else to get your tac cooldowns lower. Other than that, all the fleet/rep stuff could be swapped out for other gear and it'd still perform well enough.

    If I had the wide angle quantum, I'd definitely throw it on and run another PWO.
  • rragadonrragadon Member Posts: 36 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    darkjeff wrote: »
    Correct, without Leech you'd be better off with something else. The -Threat also helps. :P

    With regards to FAW pissing off the spheres, that's really the difference a decent group makes. If everybody's firing on the spheres, you're not going to get aggro on all the spheres.

    Note that in all three runs, including the one with PESTF, I didn't do the most DPS. That generally means I wouldn't have had all the threat.

    Well I almost exclulsively run with PUGs, sooo...
  • darkjeffdarkjeff Member Posts: 2,590 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    The variance in a PUG is too high for me to get any meaningful results when parsing, so I only ever PUG for amusement. :P
  • rragadonrragadon Member Posts: 36 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    darkjeff wrote: »
    The variance in a PUG is too high for me to get any meaningful results when parsing, so I only ever PUG for amusement. :P

    That's weird, I get fairly stable results as far as dps output is concerned (though the numbers stated before were taken in a solo context).
  • darkjeffdarkjeff Member Posts: 2,590 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    Depending on the PUG, there can be a difference of several thousand DPS.

    The ISA PUGs I've dropped in on tend to go over 10 minutes, while even a PESTF group gets it done in around 6. This doesn't have as much of an affect, since I'm still on-target most of the time and dealing damage.

    However, in some PUGs I end up holding aggro and tanking the entire map for the entire duration of the match, whereas in the latter I'm only likely to have a share of the aggro. That's the difference between blowing up once or twice, and staying alive the whole match. That obviously makes a difference in DPS measurements, since you do no damage when you're dead. (I haven't put the Guardian in a PUG though, I've only been hitting MIN 1/day now.)

    Also keep in mind that you need to be using DPS-Channel default settings in CLR to get useful numbers. The Default setting looks at your raw damage output, not your DPS over the encounter. That means the former ignores your ability to get on target, and your ability to properly use your longer-cooldown abilities.
  • rragadonrragadon Member Posts: 36 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    darkjeff wrote: »
    Depending on the PUG, there can be a difference of several thousand DPS.

    The ISA PUGs I've dropped in on tend to go over 10 minutes, while even a PESTF group gets it done in around 6. This doesn't have as much of an affect, since I'm still on-target most of the time and dealing damage.

    However, in some PUGs I end up holding aggro and tanking the entire map for the entire duration of the match, whereas in the latter I'm only likely to have a share of the aggro. That's the difference between blowing up once or twice, and staying alive the whole match. That obviously makes a difference in DPS measurements, since you do no damage when you're dead. (I haven't put the Guardian in a PUG though, I've only been hitting MIN 1/day now.)

    Also keep in mind that you need to be using DPS-Channel default settings in CLR to get useful numbers. The Default setting looks at your raw damage output, not your DPS over the encounter. That means the former ignores your ability to get on target, and your ability to properly use your longer-cooldown abilities.

    Ok, the setting I will have to try. And ofc dying woudl reduce your dps but as pointed above I don't really die usually, due to the slightly better tankiness.
Sign In or Register to comment.