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Poll please: Whats with the bogus galaxy map?
picardcrusher
Member Posts: 101 Arc User
First; an acknowledgement of the apparent changes to what was going to happen with Delta Rising that were very bad, and have now been reduced to merely bad. Given the "set in stone" nature of your production schedule now, the changes were for the better. That said, what's with the galaxy map? It still doesn't match the shows; so I'm requesting a poll because... (skip to the bottom if you just want to read the poll).
ST:TOS: Kirk makes a reference to being in the beta quadrant, but in tos all the writers knew each others' work and were using common science fiction conventions of the time. A "quadrant" was a quarter of a "sector"... an undefined region of a larger space such as a "province" or "empire". There is no reference to a galactic quadrant system, and there are many statements and plot elements which would make such a galactic interpretation ridiculous. For example Argelius is referred to as the only space port in the quadrant. Also, the size of the federation is given as 50 planets and spreading.
The Re-run years: A fan draws a map in two dimensions ploting the theoretical voyage of the starship enterprise. It ignores the fact that the Z-axis thickness of the galactic disk is greater than the X or Y components of a sector, and it draws the first humanocentric line through earth dividing the galaxy into alpha and beta, but it ties together known star locations with names used in the shows. The weaving course makes little sense for either a military vessel or an explorer.
This is the basis of our current STO map. It differs wildly from the map Roddenberry was using, which had the federation, romulans, and klingons in a rough triangle with an uncontrolled and unexplored region in the centre where the enterprise spent much of it's time. The scale of Roddenberry's space was quite small, and confined to the Sagitarius arm.
ST:TNG: While Roddenberry lived they used his map. Federation member planets are now around 150 (Picard). Wesley Crusher gives the size of the "charted" galaxy at 17%. However much of "charted" space would be known only by sensors and remain unexplored by federation ships, just as we have "charted" many stars in our galaxy without ever leaving the solar system. So this figure would also include everything Romulans, Klingons, Cardassians, and Ferengi had ever layed diplomatic claims to, as well as areas where stellar cartography was known but inhabitants were not yet contacted.
ST:DS9: A map of the galaxy is released as canon to explain what is happening in DS9. It uses galactic quadrants with earth on the centre line of the alpha quadrant. This is consistent with all show plots, dialogue, and in show map displays for ST:TNG, ST:DS9 and ST:Voyager. Scale is also the same as the Roddenberry TOS map, so aliens using their own homeworld as reference could reasonably talk about "alpha quadrant" species.
ST:Voyager: a new map of the galaxy comes out to explain voyager, that adopts the alpha / beta line down the centre of earth. It has been drawn by someone with no concept of galactic scale. Alpha is bottom right and delta top right. But with beta containing romulans and gamma the dominion, the romulans have a shorter trip to the dominion by going the direct route than they do traveling to the Bajoran wormhole. Also, Voyager's 70 year trip home would be much faster if they travelled through the Gamma Quadrant to the Bajoran wormhole. Scale is a problem, since crossing the federation to join starfleet academy would take an entire career.
Voyager's path home skirts the galactic centre (radiation and probable super black hole) to the right, as displayed by the map in the astrometrics lab.
ST:Enterprise: Meh. I think they mention Beta quadrant, so I assume they are using paramount's new cannon map. This map has more to do with industry politics than science. They aren't telling new stories in the quadrant so it is "full", with nothing new to explore because hollywood hacks think science fiction is tapped out. Boldy going backwards because Star Wars did a prequel. No change to the map.
STO: The STO galactic map is similar to the one released to explain Voyager, but changes the location of the alpha quadrant to bottom left. This makes Bajor closer to the Gamma Quadrant and the romulan gateway closer to Delta. The wormhole connections no longer criss-cross the map, which I presume was done for clarity. However we still have the too large scale issues and the tragic truth that voyager would have reached home faster by going through the Gamma Quadrant.
Also I seem to remember dialogue in the game stating that the Solanae sphere is still in the Alpha quadrant near the border with Delta, so the STO galaxy conflicts with it's own story text.
I have owned copies of all these "official" maps. There may be others I am unaware of.
POLL: I suggest a poll.
1) Change the galactic map to bring it in line with the shows. It's an unnecessary irritant.
2) Keep the map we have inspite of it's conflict with the tv shows. I don't want lines that cross.
New Map: A new galactic map would be entirely consistent with the shows as follows:
1) Earth at the centre line of the alpha quadrant. Alpha includes everything we know on our local map, such as klingons and romulans. Alpha takes the bottom quarter, gamma the right, delta the top, and beta the left.
2) Voyagers path would now be towards both the Earth and the Bajoran wormhole, making it the only candidate for fastest route home.
3) Everything is scaled down to Roddenberry's original concept so that distance calculations make sense. I suspect the devs may intend the smaller scale now, but the map doesn't convey that. Perhaps the use of a gimmick like a magnification circle would help.
4) Show references to beta could be interpreted in the original fashion (as a quarter of a sector). Galactic Beta would now be available for Cryptics use. It's a great place for Elachi or other Iconian servitors. (I'm assuming from game hints that the Iconians themselves are in Andromeda fighting the Kelvans).
5) The only down side is that those pretty jump hole lines would once again cross, and the artist would have to book an hour correcting it.
Comments? Votes?
ST:TOS: Kirk makes a reference to being in the beta quadrant, but in tos all the writers knew each others' work and were using common science fiction conventions of the time. A "quadrant" was a quarter of a "sector"... an undefined region of a larger space such as a "province" or "empire". There is no reference to a galactic quadrant system, and there are many statements and plot elements which would make such a galactic interpretation ridiculous. For example Argelius is referred to as the only space port in the quadrant. Also, the size of the federation is given as 50 planets and spreading.
The Re-run years: A fan draws a map in two dimensions ploting the theoretical voyage of the starship enterprise. It ignores the fact that the Z-axis thickness of the galactic disk is greater than the X or Y components of a sector, and it draws the first humanocentric line through earth dividing the galaxy into alpha and beta, but it ties together known star locations with names used in the shows. The weaving course makes little sense for either a military vessel or an explorer.
This is the basis of our current STO map. It differs wildly from the map Roddenberry was using, which had the federation, romulans, and klingons in a rough triangle with an uncontrolled and unexplored region in the centre where the enterprise spent much of it's time. The scale of Roddenberry's space was quite small, and confined to the Sagitarius arm.
ST:TNG: While Roddenberry lived they used his map. Federation member planets are now around 150 (Picard). Wesley Crusher gives the size of the "charted" galaxy at 17%. However much of "charted" space would be known only by sensors and remain unexplored by federation ships, just as we have "charted" many stars in our galaxy without ever leaving the solar system. So this figure would also include everything Romulans, Klingons, Cardassians, and Ferengi had ever layed diplomatic claims to, as well as areas where stellar cartography was known but inhabitants were not yet contacted.
ST:DS9: A map of the galaxy is released as canon to explain what is happening in DS9. It uses galactic quadrants with earth on the centre line of the alpha quadrant. This is consistent with all show plots, dialogue, and in show map displays for ST:TNG, ST:DS9 and ST:Voyager. Scale is also the same as the Roddenberry TOS map, so aliens using their own homeworld as reference could reasonably talk about "alpha quadrant" species.
ST:Voyager: a new map of the galaxy comes out to explain voyager, that adopts the alpha / beta line down the centre of earth. It has been drawn by someone with no concept of galactic scale. Alpha is bottom right and delta top right. But with beta containing romulans and gamma the dominion, the romulans have a shorter trip to the dominion by going the direct route than they do traveling to the Bajoran wormhole. Also, Voyager's 70 year trip home would be much faster if they travelled through the Gamma Quadrant to the Bajoran wormhole. Scale is a problem, since crossing the federation to join starfleet academy would take an entire career.
Voyager's path home skirts the galactic centre (radiation and probable super black hole) to the right, as displayed by the map in the astrometrics lab.
ST:Enterprise: Meh. I think they mention Beta quadrant, so I assume they are using paramount's new cannon map. This map has more to do with industry politics than science. They aren't telling new stories in the quadrant so it is "full", with nothing new to explore because hollywood hacks think science fiction is tapped out. Boldy going backwards because Star Wars did a prequel. No change to the map.
STO: The STO galactic map is similar to the one released to explain Voyager, but changes the location of the alpha quadrant to bottom left. This makes Bajor closer to the Gamma Quadrant and the romulan gateway closer to Delta. The wormhole connections no longer criss-cross the map, which I presume was done for clarity. However we still have the too large scale issues and the tragic truth that voyager would have reached home faster by going through the Gamma Quadrant.
Also I seem to remember dialogue in the game stating that the Solanae sphere is still in the Alpha quadrant near the border with Delta, so the STO galaxy conflicts with it's own story text.
I have owned copies of all these "official" maps. There may be others I am unaware of.
POLL: I suggest a poll.
1) Change the galactic map to bring it in line with the shows. It's an unnecessary irritant.
2) Keep the map we have inspite of it's conflict with the tv shows. I don't want lines that cross.
New Map: A new galactic map would be entirely consistent with the shows as follows:
1) Earth at the centre line of the alpha quadrant. Alpha includes everything we know on our local map, such as klingons and romulans. Alpha takes the bottom quarter, gamma the right, delta the top, and beta the left.
2) Voyagers path would now be towards both the Earth and the Bajoran wormhole, making it the only candidate for fastest route home.
3) Everything is scaled down to Roddenberry's original concept so that distance calculations make sense. I suspect the devs may intend the smaller scale now, but the map doesn't convey that. Perhaps the use of a gimmick like a magnification circle would help.
4) Show references to beta could be interpreted in the original fashion (as a quarter of a sector). Galactic Beta would now be available for Cryptics use. It's a great place for Elachi or other Iconian servitors. (I'm assuming from game hints that the Iconians themselves are in Andromeda fighting the Kelvans).
5) The only down side is that those pretty jump hole lines would once again cross, and the artist would have to book an hour correcting it.
Comments? Votes?
Nerfing is Fraud...
Post edited by picardcrusher on
0
Comments
Last I checked, Alpha was always bottom LEFT and beta was bottom RIGHT With Gamma being ABOVE alpha and delta ABOVE beta.
10c.
Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
1a) DS9 generally referred to the entire established galactic neighborhood of the Federation, Klingons, Romulans, Cardassians, etc. as the Alpha Quadrant. I'll be a mugato's uncle if the phrase "Beta Quadrant" was uttered even once over the entire run of the series, even though according to the STO galactic map, most of that neighborhood is actually on the Beta side.
1b) Voyager had the same tendency - whenever they talked about getting home and associated "home" with a quadrant, it was invariably the Alpha Quadrant they would refer to.
These suggest that either (a) the galactic quadrant borders all got shifted at some point between the DS9/Voyager era and the STO era, or (b) Starfleet and/or the series screenwriters had the same cavalier attitude toward locational correctness as certain pro sports teams do (e.g. the New York Giants and Jets football teams, both of whom are based in New Jersey).
2) The Delta Quadrant portion of the galaxy map supposedly spans the entire length of Voyager's route, or at least close to it. But not only did it take Voyager seven years to traverse that distance, their journey included quite a few shortcuts, most notably when Kes drop-kicked Voyager ten years closer to home in a matter of seconds at the end of "The Gift". Without those shortcuts it would have taken Voyager roughly thirty years to travel from the Ocampa homeworld in "Caretaker" to the Borg nebula in "Endgame". The galaxy map in STO condenses that vast distance down to a handful of sector blocks.
What's more, by the time of "The Gift", Voyager had already long moved past Kazon space, and yet in STO's "Reunion" mission the Kazon are seen harassing the Talaxian colony that Voyager didn't encounter until one of the last few episodes of the series - that is, after all those shortcuts. Are the Kazon really spread that far out across the galaxy? (For that matter, how did the Talaxian colonists end up that far away from their native region of Delta Quadrant, either? Or the Hirogen, who reach far enough into Beta Quadrant to become hired guns for Empress Sela?)
3) The Gamma Orionis and Pelia sector blocks are shown as being toward the outer edge of Beta Quadrant, on the opposite side of the Federation from Delta Quadrant. So how did the Borg and Undine end up all the way out there?
My Foundry missions | My STO Wiki page | My Twitter home page
The area of the Delta quadrant being explored in Delta Rising is only a small section covering the sector blocks located near the Nekrit expanse.
The Talaxian colony in "Reunion" (last seen in VGR "Homestead") is a long, long, LONG way from the Nekrit Expanse. As in, it would have taken a few decades for Voyager to get there if not for all those shortcuts. As it was, it still took them four seasons to get there from the Nekrit Expanse.
My Foundry missions | My STO Wiki page | My Twitter home page
1. It's not the same colony from "Homestead", as explained in the mission dialogue (well, it is the same colony in the sense of people, but not location).
2. Yeah, I know it doesn't make much sense, but I'm just relaying the stellar cartography stated by the Devs.
Just google "star trek galaxy map" to see all the versions out there from different canon and non-canon sources. So why can't Cryptic make their own version.
Granted, I would like to see the map scaled down a little, but at this point, making things too big seems to be a Cryptic trope/cliche.
it amazes me when they go in this scene the newspaper they were holding was folded this way and in the next scene it was folded that, or in this bit the door was slightly opened and in the next is closed.
cant people enjoy a thing for what it is, so what if the galaxy map doesnt fit with any of the star trek series or episodes, just enjoy it for what it is, a fun game.
it also amazes me when people say i wont watch jj trek because its not canon or i wont watch fan movies cos their not canon yada yada yada, if you watch a thing and enjoyed it or didnt like it cos its rubbish then thats fair enough but dont deprive yourself of pleasure just because something doesent quite fit with how you think it should be.
the same would apply to this game, they say i wont watch so and so its not canon yet they will play this game that is about as far away from canon as you can get.
by the way if you dont mind non canon stuff and want a good laugh go to youtube and search "star trek robot chicken" its hilarious.
When I think about everything we've been through together,
maybe it's not the destination that matters, maybe it's the journey,
and if that journey takes a little longer,
so we can do something we all believe in,
I can't think of any place I'd rather be or any people I'd rather be with.
It's not just the Talaxians. Voyager didn't encounter the Vaadwaur or the Kobali until Season 6, long after the aforementioned ten-year jump. The Nekrit Expanse visit was in Season 3, before the jump. In other words, if not only the Talaxian colony but also Kobali Prime and the Vaadwaur presence are now in the vicinity of the Nekrit Expanse, that means they all moved tens of thousands of light-years since Voyager visited them.
That a ragtag bunch of colonists hopping from one asteroid field to the next could migrate that far in just thirty-odd years beggars belief. That an entire planet (and presumably its parent star) could also be relocated that far is just silly.
My Foundry missions | My STO Wiki page | My Twitter home page
Sweet Jeebus, the next time you have nothing else to do but nitpick about science fiction maps, go read a book or see a movie.
-Leonard Nimoy, RIP
Star Trek Online...is NOT Star Trek.
It is more like "Star Trek: The Ride" at Six Flags - Orlando.
Any hope of STO resembling Star Trek went out the airlock a long long long time ago.
Now, please keep your hands and feet inside the car at all times and enjoy the ride!
"You shoot him, I shoot you, I leave both your bodies here and go out for a late night snack.
I'm thinking maybe pancakes." ~ John Casey
The Kobali...Well, in the Kobali episode, it was said Ballard died 3 years ago.
Which corresponds to the Kobali picking her up roughly around the Nekrit Expanse. Question is, how did Ballard reach Voyager?
The Vaudwaar, Turei and Voth...I give you that one, it's a bit odd.
There are many unanswered questions but it isn't as bad as you make it seem.
I personally consider STO the continuation of the Prime verse, I just tend to ignore the existance of most players, it helps a lot.
Germany, Italy, Sweden, Belgium, the Netherlands... a big chunk of Europe is 'east' of the Prime Meridian running through Greenwich; but we still refer to these countries as being part of The West.
STO's pre-DR map is based on the maps shown in Star Trek: Star Charts by Geoffrey Mandel, a book that attempted to piece together the various series and on which most of the present-day novels are also based. It places one more column of sector blocks between Sirius and Beta Ursae, with Betazed as its principal planet.
DS9 not being that far from Earth is not unsurprising however, as the characters did hop back and forth a few times. I'd guess the actual travel time in the show was about a week or less, given (for example) Defiant's ability to respond to the First Contact invasion or its flying to Sisko's aid in Paradise Lost.
As far as the DQ map goes - I do agree it feels as though the quadrant has been compacted. I'll have to take a proper look at that later. (And before anyone questions that - it's just not a question of canon but because geography is my trade).
Vice Admiral Mathrias | U.S.S. Utrecht (Blockade Runner Retrofit)
Vide Admiral Kyurin | U.S.S. Cairhien (Fleet Dreadnought Cruiser)
Vice Admiral Kiarl Leftrin | U.S.S. Aegir (Fleet Recon Science Vessel)
--= Starfleet Strategic Command =--
Yup .
This was on a display on DS9 when showing the wormhole .
In STO ... well , let's just say that it looks like we're running out of map space ...
+
ALPHA | BETA
not sure why there is any confusion about that.
Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.