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Vaadwuar: a question

steamwrightsteamwright Member Posts: 2,820
edited October 2014 in Ten Forward
Regarding the Vaadwaur of the Delta Quadrant: I've not had much success in learning whether they were intended to be reptilian, or were just given a similar appearance to a cobra. Memory Alpha speaks of their appearance, but not what was intended. StarTrek.com is strangely missing any record on them.

If the show creators did intend them to be reptilian, did they also intend them to have a distant link to Cardassians? The makeup artists had to know that the similarities to the Cardassian design would be obvious.
Post edited by steamwright on

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    rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 58,043 Community Moderator
    edited October 2014
    Considering they only appeared in one single episode... who's to say.
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    steamwrightsteamwright Member Posts: 2,820
    edited October 2014
    Episode-wise I understand your point. I even reviewed the episode to see if there was a comment.

    I was kind of hoping that in the vast collection of behind-the-scenes Trek commentary and convention discussions by everyone but the production's best boy, some Trekkie had seen some creator define the Vaadwaur a tad more.
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    pulserazorpulserazor Member Posts: 590 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    All I know of them is they seek the noble and just endeavor of eliminating the vile and disgusting necromancer Kobali from existance, liberating the galaxy from those who would seek to defile and desecrate the remains of their loved ones.
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    grandnaguszek1grandnaguszek1 Member Posts: 2,188 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    pulserazor wrote: »
    All I know of them is they seek the noble and just endeavor of eliminating the vile and disgusting necromancer Kobali from existance, liberating the galaxy from those who would seek to defile and desecrate the remains of their loved ones.

    I suppose that's one way of putting it...
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    cabezadetortugacabezadetortuga Member Posts: 251 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    pulserazor wrote: »
    All I know of them is they seek the noble and just endeavor of eliminating the vile and disgusting necromancer Kobali from existance, liberating the galaxy from those who would seek to defile and desecrate the remains of their loved ones.

    I agree with this sentiment. I find the Kobali way of "reproducing" to be disturbing and immoral. Stealing the dead is a crime or at least taboo in all Earth societies, from the most primitive to the most advanced. Besides that, it's still stealing, and stealing is wrong. The victims of the Kobali should organize operations to put an end to this offensive and dangerous Kobali activity.

    Think of the intelligence that the Kobali are gaining on many species by recording bits of memory from their past lives that "new" Kobali recall from time to time. They are a danger to all of their neighbors.

    The Kobali must stop stealing the dead, and if that causes them to be in danger of extinction, then that is their fault for backing themselves into such a ludicrous evolutionary corner.

    This is a just casus belli against the Kobali.
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    grandnaguszek1grandnaguszek1 Member Posts: 2,188 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    cabezadetortuga wrote: »
    I agree with this sentiment. I find the Kobali way of "reproducing" to be disturbing and immoral. Stealing the dead is a crime or at least taboo in all Earth societies, from the most primitive to the most advanced. Besides that, it's still stealing, and stealing is wrong. The victims of the Kobali should organize operations to put an end to this offensive and dangerous Kobali activity.

    Think of the intelligence that the Kobali are gaining on many species by recording bits of memory from their past lives that "new" Kobali recall from time to time. They are a danger to all of their neighbors.

    The Kobali must stop stealing the dead, and if that causes them to be in danger of extinction, then that is their fault for backing themselves into such a ludicrous evolutionary corner.

    This is a just casus belli against the Kobali.

    But what if stealing the dead was their only method of reproduction?
    say-star-wars-is-better.jpg
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    starswordcstarswordc Member Posts: 10,963 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    Frankly it's completely impossible for the Kobali to have evolved naturally to reproduce by necromancy. It's far more likely they were created by another species, possibly as cannon fodder.
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    hawku001xhawku001x Member Posts: 10,760 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    would be interesting if they made a cardassian connection w vaadwaur..... they could have a common ancestor like the hebitians
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    artan42artan42 Member Posts: 10,450 Bug Hunter
    edited October 2014
    Who cares, it's only a body, it's not like your using it now. Mind you, they poor plants that don't get their fertiliser will be upset :(.
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    mirrorchaosmirrorchaos Member Posts: 9,844 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    steamwright wrote: »
    Regarding the Vaadwaur of the Delta Quadrant: I've not had much success in learning whether they were intended to be reptilian, or were just given a similar appearance to a cobra. Memory Alpha speaks of their appearance, but not what was intended. StarTrek.com is strangely missing any record on them.

    If the show creators did intend them to be reptilian, did they also intend them to have a distant link to Cardassians? The makeup artists had to know that the similarities to the Cardassian design would be obvious.

    probably a cast off sub species of the cardassian race who wanted to find their own place, like the cardassians, xenophobic, aggressive, warlike, wants to assume dominant position in aspects where they can find it.

    but then again its the same as the rest, except sto canon has them now as conquerors on the rise.
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    mustrumridcully0mustrumridcully0 Member Posts: 12,963 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    cabezadetortuga wrote: »
    I agree with this sentiment. I find the Kobali way of "reproducing" to be disturbing and immoral.
    Right. If your heart stops, you're dead, first responders should not try to resuscitate you, that's ghoulish and unnatural!
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    marcusdkanemarcusdkane Member Posts: 7,439 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    cabezadetortuga wrote: »
    I agree with this sentiment. I find the Kobali way of "reproducing" to be disturbing and immoral. Stealing the dead is a crime or at least taboo in all Earth societies, from the most primitive to the most advanced. Besides that, it's still stealing, and stealing is wrong. The victims of the Kobali should organize operations to put an end to this offensive and dangerous Kobali activity.

    Think of the intelligence that the Kobali are gaining on many species by recording bits of memory from their past lives that "new" Kobali recall from time to time. They are a danger to all of their neighbors.

    The Kobali must stop stealing the dead, and if that causes them to be in danger of extinction, then that is their fault for backing themselves into such a ludicrous evolutionary corner.

    This is a just casus belli against the Kobali.

    The flaw in your argument is from ascribing Human moral values to an alien species. Even Starfleet General Order 34 would technically allow it (as it poses no danger to the ship) IDIC...
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    marcusdkanemarcusdkane Member Posts: 7,439 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    starswordc wrote: »
    Frankly it's completely impossible for the Kobali to have evolved naturally to reproduce by necromancy. It's far more likely they were created by another species, possibly as cannon fodder.
    Or perhaps a species who suffered some kind of mass sterility, forcing them to start 'recycling' as their new method of procreation...?
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    angrytargangrytarg Member Posts: 11,001 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    starswordc wrote: »
    Frankly it's completely impossible for the Kobali to have evolved naturally to reproduce by necromancy. It's far more likely they were created by another species, possibly as cannon fodder.

    This is my major concern with the Kobali. Not that anything is immoral or "disturbing", it's alien as it's supposed to be. But their species concept doesn't make any sense. Even if some form of biological meance made all of them sterile at some point during their evolution the necromancy bit makes absolutely no sense as the skill to revive a deceased body and completely modify the DNA of that body to resemble a completely new species but on the other hand to be completely unable to create offspring by any other means is just unbelieveable. Also, if that incident happened to them they would have exactly one generation to develop a deus-ex machina that is capable of doing that. It would be more believable if their trait was that they need to breed with other compatible species to carry their offspring or something like that...

    What I'm more interested in regarding the Vaadwaur is how 52 ancient fighter ships managed to conquer worlds and technology that made them once again a interstellar force able to send massive fleets to siege the Kobali homeworld. I mean if anything was made clear during the episode than that the Vaadwaur technology was akin to let medieval chevalier charge against modern day tanks...
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    hawku001xhawku001x Member Posts: 10,760 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    maybe the kobali chose to stop reproducing naturally, finding the experience awful and reprehensible
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    dalolorndalolorn Member Posts: 3,655 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    hawku001x wrote: »
    maybe the kobali chose to stop reproducing naturally, finding the experience awful and reprehensible

    Gene splicing? :P
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    shevetshevet Member Posts: 1,667 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    One wonders how the Phylosians feel about the foul murder of defenceless plants by the evil Vulcans. Clearly, the Vulcans should give up their depraved and immoral vegetarianism, and if that means they all starve to death, so what?
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    steamwrightsteamwright Member Posts: 2,820
    edited October 2014
    angrytarg wrote: »

    What I'm more interested in regarding the Vaadwaur is how 52 ancient fighter ships managed to conquer worlds and technology that made them once again a interstellar force able to send massive fleets to siege the Kobali homeworld. I mean if anything was made clear during the episode than that the Vaadwaur technology was akin to let medieval chevalier charge against modern day tanks...

    What I got from rewatching "Dragon Seed" was that the Vaadwaur were originally widely scattered, so I suspect they'll report several battalions awoken from hidden bases across the quadrant. Admittedly, the fly in the ointment of that idea is that the battalion that Voyager awoke had slept long due to a malfunction. It is odd that all other possible locations would have similar issues, unless they were somehow linked.

    As to their technology, they stated a strong mental ability (they'd memorized their "underspace" tunnels), so I could see that they are highly adaptable. Any captured ship or debris could potentially be studied and replicated quickly. Just a hypothesis.
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    adverberoadverbero Member Posts: 2,045 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    If the Kazon cna keep those old ships ticking over, I can't see any reason the Vaadwuar can't have obtained second hand technology too boost themselves

    Replicator tech , Military minds, and commitmnet to total war goes a long way
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    jeffel82jeffel82 Member Posts: 2,075 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    angrytarg wrote: »
    This is my major concern with the Kobali. Not that anything is immoral or "disturbing", it's alien as it's supposed to be. But their species concept doesn't make any sense.

    That's the first thing in Star Trek to not make any sense! :eek: ;)
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    angrytargangrytarg Member Posts: 11,001 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    jeffel82 wrote: »
    That's the first thing in Star Trek to not make any sense! :eek: ;)

    Certainly not :D But that also doesn't mean that the Kobali design concept gets any better :D
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    ^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
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    "A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
    "That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
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    mirrorchaosmirrorchaos Member Posts: 9,844 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    adverbero wrote: »
    If the Kazon cna keep those old ships ticking over, I can't see any reason the Vaadwuar can't have obtained second hand technology too boost themselves

    Replicator tech , Military minds, and commitmnet to total war goes a long way

    a mind for it and having the numbers are two different things, but they both impact each other in their own ways as well.
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    jeffel82jeffel82 Member Posts: 2,075 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    angrytarg wrote: »
    Certainly not :D But that also doesn't mean that the Kobali design concept gets any better :D

    Honestly, despite the fact that it doesn't make much sense from an evolutionary concept, the fact that people are reacting so strongly to the Kobali is a pretty good indication that the idea is a good one.

    It's a great concept to hang a story on, and I'm glad they're being included in-game.
    You're right. The work here is very important.
    tacofangs wrote: »
    ...talking to players is like being a mall Santa. Everyone immediately wants to tell you all of the things they want, and you are absolutely powerless to deliver 99% of them.
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