It's not that they used those themes, it's that they were so bad at it.
And completely ignored the established/hinted-at pre-TOS history that most fans figured was the entire reason for having a pre-TOS series.
I can respect that, I wasn't just referring to DS9 also ENT. My favorites are TOS and TNG though I did enjoy a lot of DS9 and am enjoying watching ENT on Netflix now...
We should also note that despite them still having their names on the credits, DS9 wasn't being actively run by B&B by about the middle of season 3 or so; it was mostly Ron Moore and Ira Steven Behr after that. B&B thankfully got distracted by VOY.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Threshold was stupid, but it doesn't come close to deserving its status as horrible. There are far, far worse episodes. "Let He Who Is Without Sin..." and "Unexpected" come to mind.
The thing about Enterprise was that, other than "These Are The Voyages...", most of the run from the second half of Season 3 to the end was pure gold, particularly the conclusion of the Xindi arc. I know some people hate "Zero Hour" for the last three minutes, but it led into such a well-done two-parter that I can't really. Also, what is it exactly that people have a problem with? Just the inherent silliness of space lizard TRIBBLE? Or the randomness of the sudden time-travel stuff?
Granted, the Temporal Cold War wasn't handled all that well, mainly because it was ignored for most of the show, but it did have potential. And I'd say some of the episodes dealing with it, even early on, were fairly good. "Shockwave", for example.
Let's not forget that Braga is also responsible for the various TNG stinker episodes such as "Genesis" (which I like to call "Threshold" in reverse), Geordi turning into an alien chameleon thing, that silly "Verteron City" holodeck episode, and that one where time "is looping" and Data pulls them out with the Power of Three.
Err... yeah. The warning signs were already there... Braga just SUCKS as a writer. He's written a lot of stinkers. I don't feel sorry for him at all.
Let's not forget that Braga is also responsible for the various TNG stinker episodes such as "Genesis" (which I like to call "Threshold" in reverse), Geordi turning into an alien chameleon thing, that silly "Verteron City" holodeck episode, and that one where time "is looping" and Data pulls them out with the Power of Three.
Err... yeah. The warning signs were already there... Braga just SUCKS as a writer. He's written a lot of stinkers. I don't feel sorry for him at all.
I never said it turned the entire series into a hologram. But what it did was to take the series finale, in which we're supposed to send Our Heroes off in grand style, and turn everything they did and everything they went through in that episode into a sidelight for a Riker holodeck adventure.
Oh, and they gave Trip perhaps the stupidest death of any non-redshirt in all of Trekdom, and then didn't even give a nod to the concept of a funeral. Instead, we got some convoluted metaphor about gazelles, and multiple references to Archer' Great Speech - which happened after the episode ended.
Worst of all, the supposed advice Riker was looking for wasn't even germane to the TNG episode it was linked to. He needed to figure out whether his duty lay with keeping quiet, as per the orders of his former commanding officer, or speaking up in violation of those orders, as per Starfleet's much-vaunted and oft-ignored ethics.
I never said it turned the entire series into a hologram. But what it did was to take the series finale, in which we're supposed to send Our Heroes off in grand style, and turn everything they did and everything they went through in that episode into a sidelight for a Riker holodeck adventure.
Oh, and they gave Trip perhaps the stupidest death of any non-redshirt in all of Trekdom, and then didn't even give a nod to the concept of a funeral. Instead, we got some convoluted metaphor about gazelles, and multiple references to Archer' Great Speech - which happened after the episode ended.
Worst of all, the supposed advice Riker was looking for wasn't even germane to the TNG episode it was linked to. He needed to figure out whether his duty lay with keeping quiet, as per the orders of his former commanding officer, or speaking up in violation of those orders, as per Starfleet's much-vaunted and oft-ignored ethics.
Technically, Trip was a redshirt.
You could argue Riker needed to remember the morals of the Federation by looking back on its founding. And remember, Troi put him up to it.
Well that was pretty interesting, Probably will keep coming back to this site for more now
These are the Voyages on the STO forum, the final frontier. Our continuing mission: to explore Pretentious Posts, to seek out new Overreactions and Misinformation , to boldly experience Cynicism like no man has before.......
I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
ENT relaunch. Because the authors agreed with us that the series finale was stupid, they wrote that Section 31 had altered the records of Trip's death to cover their recruiting him into the organization.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
ENT relaunch. Because the authors agreed with us that the series finale was stupid, they wrote that Section 31 had altered the records of Trip's death to cover their recruiting him into the organization.
I often don't side with the books because I feel like they have their own spirit which runs contrary to the shows. But they're right here. We didn't see Trip die. We saw a record claiming that he died.
By the same token, you could just as easily argue that the Dominion killed Senator Vreenak. It's what the records said.
I've never bought into the idea some sci-fi fans argue, that records or even likable characters' statements about science or history are trustworthy or accurate. Worf is not necessarily correct when it comes to Klingon history or the best example of a typical Klingon. When Picard talks about money, he may be wrong or using words in a different way than we do. Maybe the dictionaries have changed the definition of money. When Geordi makes a science error, maybe their understanding exceeds ours or maybe the terminology has changed. Or maybe Geordi was just tired and nobody felt like correcting him.
I often don't side with the books because I feel like they have their own spirit which runs contrary to the shows. But they're right here. We didn't see Trip die. We saw a record claiming that he died.
By the same token, you could just as easily argue that the Dominion killed Senator Vreenak. It's what the records said.
I've never bought into the idea some sci-fi fans argue, that records or even likable characters' statements about science or history are trustworthy or accurate. Worf is not necessarily correct when it comes to Klingon history or the best example of a typical Klingon. When Picard talks about money, he may be wrong or using words in a different way than we do. Maybe the dictionaries have changed the definition of money. When Geordi makes a science error, maybe their understanding exceeds ours or maybe the terminology has changed. Or maybe Geordi was just tired and nobody felt like correcting him.
That's mostly the way I look at it. It comes down to "characters are not infallible". Hell, that's even a plot point a lot of the time. Even Q gets stuff wrong.
And if a character is infallible, s/he's either a Mary Sue or God.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
If the franchise has a future the one thing that could help secure that future would be that Rick Berman and Brannon Braga are never allowed to have anything more to do with it.
If something is not broken, don't fix it, if it is broken, don't leave it broken.
And Coto made lemonade out of it. He used it to revert that entire stupid Temporal Cold War arc and get the show back to what it was supposed to be all along.
And that is why I love that man and wish he was the show runner from the get go. You can tell his influences in season 3.
As for Trip's death, one of the books have Jake sisko and Nog run some holoprograms and realise something isn't quite right. So they start looking into things and turns out Section 31 faked Trip's death for a mission. And it actually happened in season 4, not however many years later records indicate it was.
These are the voyages.... My main problem with that episode boils down to this: A series finale should make sense to people who have only ever seen that show. This episode relied on viewers remembering a singular, frankly non descript episode from ten years ago. And even then, they have Riker coming to the conclusion he should tell Picard, yet in the episode, he doesnt. This clearly takes place during the time the Enterprise is scanning the asteroid field. I get wanting to have some TNG guys in, but they went about it wrong. They should have had Troi and Riker come in from the Titan to help someway to keep the Federation being founded. It would allow for the aged actors, it would keep the crew as real, and still could have been done in a way that allowed those who have only ever seen Enterprise to follow what was happening, since the Federation was clearly being established in previous episodes. maybe Daniels told Riker he needed to go back because someone was messing with history in one last desperate attempt to restart the Temporal war, and Daniels couldn't go tell Archer because he had already been there with Archer once before and couldn't risk running over his own timeline (remember that scene in the Xindi arc where Daniels showed Archer the signing of the charter?). Obviously Riker and Troi would end up coming face to face with Archer and they would have a proper adventure together. This not only keeps everything nice and internal with the rest of the series, but also works as a love letter just as well.
And don't get me started with Trip's death. Ferengi episode. Where was security/Macos? That's all I'm saying on that.
About the only thing that episode did well was the little three Enterprise montage at the very end.
To be honest, These are the Voyages annoys me more than Threshold did. Threshold was a failure across the board, from it's very conception. At least TATV had potential.
I mean, if it was so easy to reverse the genetic mutation, why not just shoot voyager home, and then have the doctor reverse the mutation to the entire cerw. They knew what to expect, what would happen.
*******************************************
A Romulan Strike Team, Missing Farmers and an ancient base on a Klingon Border world. But what connects them? Find out in my First Foundary mission: 'The Jeroan Farmer Escapade'
Comments
And completely ignored the established/hinted-at pre-TOS history that most fans figured was the entire reason for having a pre-TOS series.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
The thing about Enterprise was that, other than "These Are The Voyages...", most of the run from the second half of Season 3 to the end was pure gold, particularly the conclusion of the Xindi arc. I know some people hate "Zero Hour" for the last three minutes, but it led into such a well-done two-parter that I can't really. Also, what is it exactly that people have a problem with? Just the inherent silliness of space lizard TRIBBLE? Or the randomness of the sudden time-travel stuff?
Granted, the Temporal Cold War wasn't handled all that well, mainly because it was ignored for most of the show, but it did have potential. And I'd say some of the episodes dealing with it, even early on, were fairly good. "Shockwave", for example.
Err... yeah. The warning signs were already there... Braga just SUCKS as a writer. He's written a lot of stinkers. I don't feel sorry for him at all.
...I liked a lot of those episodes, though...
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
You poor, pathetic wretch.....
:eek:
A bit harsh, eh?
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
I've never understood the idea that the show was ALWAYS a holoprogram.
It just reads to me that the episode is a holoprogram. Just that episode.
I don't think "it was always a hologram" was ever intended as an interpretation by anyone who worked on the show.
This drink! I like it! *Smashes glass on the floor.*
ANOTHER!
:P:D
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
It's a perfectly cromulent word.
Oh, and they gave Trip perhaps the stupidest death of any non-redshirt in all of Trekdom, and then didn't even give a nod to the concept of a funeral. Instead, we got some convoluted metaphor about gazelles, and multiple references to Archer' Great Speech - which happened after the episode ended.
Worst of all, the supposed advice Riker was looking for wasn't even germane to the TNG episode it was linked to. He needed to figure out whether his duty lay with keeping quiet, as per the orders of his former commanding officer, or speaking up in violation of those orders, as per Starfleet's much-vaunted and oft-ignored ethics.
Technically, Trip was a redshirt.
You could argue Riker needed to remember the morals of the Federation by looking back on its founding. And remember, Troi put him up to it.
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
No they also seem to have thrown out the TNG episode Genesis.
And then totally ignore the lesson and then get motivated to tell Picard after he sees all the dead folks on the Pegasus.
Well that was pretty interesting, Probably will keep coming back to this site for more now
Which book(s) are you talking about?
I imagine he means the Pocket Books novels.
ENT relaunch. Because the authors agreed with us that the series finale was stupid, they wrote that Section 31 had altered the records of Trip's death to cover their recruiting him into the organization.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
I often don't side with the books because I feel like they have their own spirit which runs contrary to the shows. But they're right here. We didn't see Trip die. We saw a record claiming that he died.
By the same token, you could just as easily argue that the Dominion killed Senator Vreenak. It's what the records said.
I've never bought into the idea some sci-fi fans argue, that records or even likable characters' statements about science or history are trustworthy or accurate. Worf is not necessarily correct when it comes to Klingon history or the best example of a typical Klingon. When Picard talks about money, he may be wrong or using words in a different way than we do. Maybe the dictionaries have changed the definition of money. When Geordi makes a science error, maybe their understanding exceeds ours or maybe the terminology has changed. Or maybe Geordi was just tired and nobody felt like correcting him.
That's mostly the way I look at it. It comes down to "characters are not infallible". Hell, that's even a plot point a lot of the time. Even Q gets stuff wrong.
And if a character is infallible, s/he's either a Mary Sue or God.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
but threshold was the biggest steaming pile of rotten festering maggot filled pile of monkey TRIBBLE that has ever been penned by the hand of man.
I do not feel sorry for him
I apologise to any piles of monkey TRIBBLE who might read this for me asscociating it with brannon braga
I believe it was inferred that he never got the opportunity to tell him before the Pegasus was discovered.
Infinite possibilities have implications that could not be completely understood if you turned this entire universe into a giant supercomputer.
And that is why I love that man and wish he was the show runner from the get go. You can tell his influences in season 3.
As for Trip's death, one of the books have Jake sisko and Nog run some holoprograms and realise something isn't quite right. So they start looking into things and turns out Section 31 faked Trip's death for a mission. And it actually happened in season 4, not however many years later records indicate it was.
These are the voyages.... My main problem with that episode boils down to this: A series finale should make sense to people who have only ever seen that show. This episode relied on viewers remembering a singular, frankly non descript episode from ten years ago. And even then, they have Riker coming to the conclusion he should tell Picard, yet in the episode, he doesnt. This clearly takes place during the time the Enterprise is scanning the asteroid field. I get wanting to have some TNG guys in, but they went about it wrong. They should have had Troi and Riker come in from the Titan to help someway to keep the Federation being founded. It would allow for the aged actors, it would keep the crew as real, and still could have been done in a way that allowed those who have only ever seen Enterprise to follow what was happening, since the Federation was clearly being established in previous episodes. maybe Daniels told Riker he needed to go back because someone was messing with history in one last desperate attempt to restart the Temporal war, and Daniels couldn't go tell Archer because he had already been there with Archer once before and couldn't risk running over his own timeline (remember that scene in the Xindi arc where Daniels showed Archer the signing of the charter?). Obviously Riker and Troi would end up coming face to face with Archer and they would have a proper adventure together. This not only keeps everything nice and internal with the rest of the series, but also works as a love letter just as well.
And don't get me started with Trip's death. Ferengi episode. Where was security/Macos? That's all I'm saying on that.
About the only thing that episode did well was the little three Enterprise montage at the very end.
To be honest, These are the Voyages annoys me more than Threshold did. Threshold was a failure across the board, from it's very conception. At least TATV had potential.
I mean, if it was so easy to reverse the genetic mutation, why not just shoot voyager home, and then have the doctor reverse the mutation to the entire cerw. They knew what to expect, what would happen.
A Romulan Strike Team, Missing Farmers and an ancient base on a Klingon Border world. But what connects them? Find out in my First Foundary mission: 'The Jeroan Farmer Escapade'