What does it take to run cloak.....?

chrisbrown12009 · October 2014

My rom is Fed allied and some would...HAVE said that FEDallied automatically makes it a weak toon....

I was in Kerrat today and a HOBO, who was coordinated with 4-5 OTHER players continuously killed me with other feds and all the while telling me that i shouldnt run cloak, that i didnt know what i was doing and all this and that.....all the while its a HOBO gang bang on all feds.

I would ask him what is was i was doing wrong and all he would say is..."play KDF" or something similar.

The whole thing left me rather confused....

Was there something i was missing? I realize im not the best player out there and that i can always learn from others and yet him wouldnt even drop pointers....

...or was he trolling....as his 3 sci friends drop GW after GW on us and the other 2-3 escorts cut us top ribbons....

Unknown · October 2014

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chrisbrown12009 · October 2014

patrickngo wrote: »

partly you WERE being trolled, and partly he was right.

bear with me, I haven't slept in about fifty hours...

Okay, so...cloak.

Cloak is not an escape route, it's a hunting tool for taking hte initiative. wrap you rmind around that, and you'll begin to 'get' what the KDF was telling you.

The way it works, and the reason it's so, is that it's actually really easy to bust someone out of cloak, or make them die faster by cloaking,than they would by, say, hitting Evasives and dumping Deuterium into the engine.

HOW it works for a Bird of Prey...

between the time a KDF BoP decloaks and can engage his or her cloak again, is about eighteen seconds.

Optimum range for DHC's is 5 Kliks and below. best hit odds with Beam Overload off a dBB is about 3-7 Kliks. coordinating it with THY and you're decloaking at about 5 kilometers if you're Thissler and have the catlike reflexes to trigger the tractor-beam and briefly immobilize your prey (making sure the torpedoes not only hit, but hit at the moment the target's shield facing fails.)

all of which means, your BoP has 3-5 seconds MAX to kill you by spiking damage and critting the **** out of you, and he needs ACC to do it, because shots that don't hit, don't crit.

The rest of it:

From the moment you're firing your burst into the target, you're employing youir escapes. (this is really where you want your spacebar binds if you can manage 'em-not the attack, but the escape.)

because for the next fifteen seconds, your bird of prey is the softest thing on the field. with the fewest weapons, and weakest shields.

There are shuttles that are tougher, thanks to high Defense scores.

thing is, with a Bird of Prey if you can't get that kill in those three seconds, you're likely dead meat. If you try to recloak immediately, you are ASSUREDLY dead meat-all his buddy has to do is fire a torp spread while you're making your run-if it hits sheild, you might survive. if it hits bare hulll? because it WILL hit, You're going to respawn land.

How this combines with Warbirds (Romulan ships)-they keep the damage bonus longer, they have real shields, real hulls, and Singularity Powers.

If your singularity power doesn't help you in the 'escape' phase, youre at a disadvantage because you THINK you can recloak to escape.

"Think" it.

not so-unless you're coupling it with singularity jump or some area of effect placate that works immediately.

your Warbird actually may work BETTER=esp. if you're using a conventional Escort or Cruiser inspired layout, (BFAW Scim comes to mind) if you DON'T cloak-your defense is better, your team can support you in the Fedball easier.

Going to cloak in a dogfight 'just because you can' will result in you being shot down-too many ways to stop you mid-cloak with your shields down (TB1 will do it, and that's an ensign power), and under cloak, minus that special console, your hull is bare. If he's got skills in Sensors, he's likely still going to see you at useful engagement range.

if he can see you, he can shoot at you.

Getting it yet? Your cloak is an offense play, not an escape or defense.

Proper order is:

Decloak/strike,omega and Evasive, recloak out of range.

what you were probably doing was;

Decloak/dogfight, Recloak-try-to-escape.

which doesn't work.

Youre 80% right...about what i was doing. i WOULD add a sing jump and then try to cloak.... but for the most part escaping DID prove difficult....but there were at times a 6v1 going on...with me being the one...

Its the "using cloak offensively" i understand.....but the surviving after a strike.....seems to be the hard part....i also do not use kind binds, AT ALL
.....im not sure how....

cbrjwrr · October 2014

HoBO gank squad: No idea why they do it, clubbing baby seals is no way for a warrior to behave.

Usually you just warp or gather enough players to make it equal, but if that is the first one you've encountered, I suspect you probably don't know enough players to do that.

dontdrunkimshoot · October 2014

patrickngo wrote: »

Cloak is not an escape route, it's a hunting tool for taking hte initiative. wrap you rmind around that, and you'll begin to 'get' what the KDF was telling you.

The way it works, and the reason it's so, is that it's actually really easy to bust someone out of cloak, or make them die faster by cloaking,than they would by, say, hitting Evasives and dumping Deuterium into the engine.

not an escape route? thats like EXTREMELY wrong. its both, especially for a warbird. ive escaped certain death at least a thousand times ONLY because i had a battle cloak. i do it a dozen times a match. 95 times out of 100 i can survive a getaway chased by multiple sci ships in a d'deridex. some times its not easy, but its far from hopeless, and its the most important skill a rom user can learn.

to anyone haveing trouble with warbirds, if your not making an escape and cloaking as soon as you can nearly every time you decloak, you are romulaning wrong.

patrickngo wrote: »

HOW it works for a Bird of Prey...

is that you don't have singularity jump. and the longer cloak cooldown can really be a pain, but at least you got a warp core and potentially a lot more engine and shield energy.

patrickngo wrote: »

Proper order is:

Decloak/strike,omega and Evasive, recloak out of range.

what you were probably doing was;

Decloak/dogfight, Recloak-try-to-escape.

which doesn't work.

you just need to know when you can survive hitting the cloak button, and when you need to do more to get away. pretty often even under fire its no big deal unless your in a brel or tvaro, your defense score instantly jump way up too. evasive, fluidic jump, constellation jump, singularity jump, rom rep active cloak, the new delta rep warpcore jump, any one is usually enough to get you safe on its own. the battle cloak is the most impotent part of the escape though, everything else is just prolonging the inevitable without it.

coolheadal · October 2014

ROM have the jump feature, so does the 8472 have a jump feature. These jump features give you the advantage to escape from harms way. Cloak or better yet the mask SCI BOF training can be use to hide your ship from sensors. Mask makes your entire ship black (stealth). I use to use the Mask but you can't use weapons while it's Masked! If you Mask and Cloak there seems to be a bug that will lock you in Mask and you can't unmask. Or you Mask and Jump same bug.

Can Jump then Cloak and some ships you can get a boost in speed to escape also. Don't wait until your past 10%.

blahhdrey · October 2014

cbrjwrr wrote: »

HoBO gank squad: No idea why they do it, clubbing baby seals is no way for a warrior to behave.

Usually you just warp or gather enough players to make it equal, but if that is the first one you've encountered, I suspect you probably don't know enough players to do that.

Were you there? If not, you probably shouldn't make assumptions. Up until the last fifteen minutes before we left we were outnumbered 2-3 to 1. For most of the time we were in Ker'rat there were three of us. The most we had in the zone at any one time was five, which still allowed for a two to one advantage to Feds. We weren't running any specific 'premade' builds and we weren't all in TS. There were good fights for most of the night, and when it became "clubbing baby seals", we all split so the farmers could go back to their lucrative MK X Uncommon lootfest.

As for Ker'rat chat, it's Ker'rat chat. I'm not sure what else could be said about that.

chrisbrown12009 · October 2014

blahhdrey wrote: »

Were you there? If not, you probably shouldn't make assumptions. Up until the last fifteen minutes before we left we were outnumbered 2-3 to 1. For most of the time we were in Ker'rat there were three of us. The most we had in the zone at any one time was five, which still allowed for a two to one advantage to Feds. We weren't running any specific 'premade' builds and we weren't all in TS. There were good fights for most of the night, and when it became "clubbing baby seals", we all split so the farmers could go back to their lucrative MK X Uncommon lootfest.

As for Ker'rat chat, it's Ker'rat chat. I'm not sure what else could be said about that.

This is only PARTLY true. First off, there where SIX hobo....we counted... second, you guys seem to always say, "there are more feds than us!" what you NEVER EVER say is that those 5-6 people, are ALL in teamspeck coorodinating their efforts while only 1-2...IF THAT of the feds are working together. and "in a team" and "in a team AND teamspeak" are two VERY different things.yo know it, i know it, and so does everyone else who is heavy into STO PVP. So lets stop faking the funk here. you cant bring in a coorodinated team, **** feds in 6v1's and 6v2's.....6v3's at best....while the majority of the fed are farming, and claim youre out numbered.

The FACT is, while there may be 10-15 feds in kerrat, 3-4 of them are fitted to PVP while usually ALL the KDF are fitting to PVP. so once the PVPing starts, the numbers are more often than not equal......UNTIL HOBO shows up with their 5 on 1 gangbanggankfess.

ive seen it.

warmaker001b · October 2014

OP, zone chat during PVP isn't my thing. It's pointless and it can distract you from what you're doing.

Most of the time

Unless you like to get involved in some friendly ****-talking every now and then

Don't take advice from the enemy while PVP'ing, never take anything said to heart. If questions do arise, ask it later with some buddies you know that DO PVP, or ask around in this subforum. Taking points from the enemy during a match? Admiral Ackbar would be raging mad at you...

Oh, and the numbers in Kerrat fluctuate all the time. Of course, if you are the one getting shot at, it always feels like there's way more of "them" then there are of "us." Usually though there's going to be far more Feds, just from the sheer difference of the player populations.

Unknown · October 2014

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Unknown · October 2014

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thissler · October 2014

dontdrunkimshoot wrote: »

not an escape route? thats like EXTREMELY wrong. its both, especially for a warbird. ive escaped certain death at least a thousand times ONLY because i had a battle cloak. i do it a dozen times a match. 95 times out of 100 i can survive a getaway chased by multiple sci ships in a d'deridex. some times its not easy, but its far from hopeless, and its the most important skill a rom user can learn.

.

DDIS actually inspired me to make this video. And oldie but a goodie!

Unknown · October 2014

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cbrjwrr · October 2014

deokkent wrote: »

Please watch this. Stop at 7:20.

Link. Punish the FEDs.

Nah, why stop at 7:20 when 7:40 to 7:45 exists?

blahhdrey wrote: »

Were you there? If not, you probably shouldn't make assumptions. Up until the last fifteen minutes before we left we were outnumbered 2-3 to 1. For most of the time we were in Ker'rat there were three of us. The most we had in the zone at any one time was five, which still allowed for a two to one advantage to Feds. We weren't running any specific 'premade' builds and we weren't all in TS. There were good fights for most of the night, and when it became "clubbing baby seals", we all split so the farmers could go back to their lucrative MK X Uncommon lootfest.

As for Ker'rat chat, it's Ker'rat chat. I'm not sure what else could be said about that.

On a typical night there are 2, possibly 3 (or even 4 on rare occasions) which are level 50 zones - unless you and the OP were in the same instance, there is no reason to say I am making incorrect assumptions.

You could be doing all the normal Ker'rat stuff while another group of HoBOs could be ganking in one of the other zones.

And anyway, KDF are always out-numbered in Ker'rat, usually more than 4 to 1, it goes with the territory - and KDF still win. So facing less Feds for a 2-3 to 1 isn't important.

torach · October 2014

cbrjwrr wrote: »

Nah, why stop at 7:20 when 7:40 to 7:45 exists?

On a typical night there are 2, possibly 3 (or even 4 on rare occasions) which are level 50 zones - unless you and the OP were in the same instance, there is no reason to say I am making incorrect assumptions.

You could be doing all the normal Ker'rat stuff while another group of HoBOs could be ganking in one of the other zones.

And anyway, KDF are always out-numbered in Ker'rat, usually more than 4 to 1, it goes with the territory - and KDF still win. So facing less Feds for a 2-3 to 1 isn't important.

Please stay on topic. Its against forum rules to wander off topic and start a flamewar.

cbrjwrr · October 2014

torach wrote: »

Please stay on topic. Its against forum rules to wander off topic and start a flamewar.

Just as well I was on topic and wasn't starting a flame war then.

torach · October 2014

cbrjwrr wrote: »

Just as well I was on topic and wasn't starting a flame war then.

So dishing out slander about another fleet isnt flaming?

usshannibal · October 2014

chrisbrown12009 wrote: »

My rom is Fed allied and some would...HAVE said that FEDallied automatically makes it a weak toon....

I was in Kerrat today and a HOBO, who was coordinated with 4-5 OTHER players continuously killed me with other feds and all the while telling me that i shouldnt run cloak, that i didnt know what i was doing and all this and that.....all the while its a HOBO gang bang on all feds.

I would ask him what is was i was doing wrong and all he would say is..."play KDF" or something similar.

The whole thing left me rather confused....

Was there something i was missing? I realize im not the best player out there and that i can always learn from others and yet him wouldnt even drop pointers....

...or was he trolling....as his 3 sci friends drop GW after GW on us and the other 2-3 escorts cut us top ribbons....

I dont know what happened there at that day but I can assure you one essential thing: 99% of the dialogues and conversations shouldn' t be taken seriously at all in general. There are plenty of people who love to harass other folks when they are disadvantaged in various cases but get enormously upset if they' re put in a similar position themselves or if the opponent is competent enough to strike back effectively^^, thats what I witnessed myself pretty often.

However, the person who typed to you that statement in which he rated romulan captain types aligned to the KDF above rom aligned FED toons must have either trolled you or led you astray because it is truly foolish ignorant to set up such a senseless thesis since both, rom feds and rom kdf's are able to access exactly the same set of innate captain traits and romulan/ reman boff types and lockbox ships/faction-specific ships. The only difference nowadays is that rom kdf captains get access to elite fleet disruptor weapon types while feds have access to elite fleet phaser weapons.

Take it easy, if someone intends to bully you in a warzone otherwise the responsible folks will achieve their objective

If you really have the need for assistance in order to improve your own pvp skills warzones are generally the wrong place to ask for. You' ll have more access in public pvp-channels/ pvp help threads on forums. Optimally, you' ll improve and progress yourself more rapidly if you gain membership in a decent pvp- fleet.

cbrjwrr · October 2014

torach wrote: »

So dishing out slander about another fleet isnt flaming?

Go on, I'll bite - what slander?

playhard88 · October 2014

Do a sci t'varo snopper and watch them cry like babies all the day.

Unknown · October 2014

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dpsloss88 · October 2014

Gangs tend to be vicious, and HOBOs are notoriously so. Most are hardcore KDF and are used to being outnumbered in Kerrat. Because KDF is facing extinction they are having a good time gathering together and grouping up to attack kerrat. They probably feel justified because they are an endangered species.

Of course KDF have their own borg zone N'vak where gang warfare is more even. Or at least it was back when KDF was still supported by Cryptic. I haven't been playing KDF in a while except for grinding.

currahee320 · October 2014

playhard88 wrote: »

Do a sci t'varo snopper and watch them cry like babies all the day.

Nahh, those are the most fun to stomp. A handful of deaths and you kids go running from the zone in full retreat while claiming victory. Please try again.

trueprom3theus · October 2014

Especially look on how thissler runs away when he fails the attack. Back on those days I know he used impulse capacitive cell console quite a lot, so he had evasive and the console. Also watch he's switching to max engine power when it gets nasty. And usually when you run, hit evasive first, then brace for impact, hazards, polarize hull, and only then cloack, if you'll be hit by torps/energy weapons, you'll have some good resistance and more chances to survive. Also, enhanced battle cloack will allow you to use healing abilities while cloack, if you get a ship like that, you may cloack first then use the resists. The speed is the key to survive as a cloaker, a hyperimpulse engine (the undine rep is very good, especially combined with another piece, and also gives you 3 turn modifiers) and as much power as possible in that engine will take you out of trouble. So before you start the attack, plan the retreat, plan the cloacking sequence. And for crying out loud, use some bindings and macros, lol, it's hard to mouse click everything, even in pve. If you need help, let us know, somebody will post some examples.

The reason those folks told you to play kdf is partially correct, once you realize how to use a battle cloack, you can use it both offensive and defensive. Obviously you don't need to roll a kdf toon just for that, but this is what they meant... Old school kdf that pvped from release date are one of the best in game, especially as harassing in kerrat. And honestly, I admire those that still fly bops and still make a kill (not going in a debate on how inefficient they are in a team, especially compared to the warbirds, just referring to kerrat type of fights) . I took the easy way of a warbird long ago... Too bad cryptic doesn't send more love to the bops...

mindsharp · October 2014

playhard88 wrote: »

Do a sci t'varo snopper and watch them cry like babies all the day.

Hmmm, just who cries about a t'varo snooper? There are only two or three around in ker'rat and they are pretty easy to chase away with regular non cloaking snoopers.

playhard88 · October 2014

mindsharp wrote: »

Hmmm, just who cries about a t'varo snooper? There are only two or three around in ker'rat and they are pretty easy to chase away with regular non cloaking snoopers.

The spam of private messages is unstoppable, I don't run t'varo snoopers myself (mostly because i barely go to kerrat, is boring), but i have a lot of fun watching the private messages copy+pasted in the fleet chat lol, is amazing how a barely geared toon without almost no reputation or traits can hurt the ego of some players.
About chasing them, yeah probably is easy, but even if they die, they can sub nuke the alphas over and over again, and force them to go out of cloak, and that is annoying at best. After all the objective of those builds are not "be unkillable", is just be a pain in the TRIBBLE, thing that they accomplish pretty well imo.

mindsharp · October 2014

playhard88 wrote: »

About chasing them, yeah probably is easy, but even if they die, they can sub nuke the alphas over and over again, and force them to go out of cloak, and that is annoying at best. After all the objective of those builds are not "be unkillable", is just be a pain in the TRIBBLE, thing that they accomplish pretty well imo.

They arent even mildly annoying to anyone competent. At best they get kills on unwary cloaked ships, at worst they watch impotently as all their allies die.

rck01 · October 2014

Real KDF fly through Ker'rat in a non-cloaking sci vessel with no energy weapons, no tac officers and nothing but their wits (and some sci "magic") to defend them.

RCK

giotariz · October 2014

rck01 wrote: »

Real KDF fly through Ker'rat in a non-cloaking sci vessel with no energy weapons, no tac officers and nothing but their wits (and some sci "magic") to defend them.

RCK

Real KDF are not Romulans :P

:D

riccardo171 · October 2014

rck01 wrote: »

Real KDF fly through Ker'rat in a non-cloaking sci vessel with no energy weapons, no tac officers and nothing but their wits (and some sci "magic") to defend them.

RCK

While we Feds just take the arms and vaporize every moving thing we see around. Just say no to diplomacy and "Don't mess with The Sisko" as motto.

rck01 · October 2014

giotariz wrote: »

Real KDF are not Romulans

Bah! You lump us all together anyway, so... :P

BTW, this is one more reason why Cryptic should remove all of this silly "faction" stuff and just let everyone shoot everyone else (including Fed-on-Fed action) inside the "war zone."

Would make for a VERY different dynamic within Ker'rat (sort of like N'Vak has right now).

RCK

What does it take to run cloak.....?

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