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"Trinity" has always been weak in STO, now worse.
amalefactor
Member Posts: 511 Arc User
Lots of people, me included in the past, have had problems with the idea of a mandatory "tank/heals/dps" trinity to do group-based content in MMOs. It seemed to be a boon for a long time in STO that not only did groups make no such role checks but didn't need them anyway.
The problem is, like just about every game that drops the trinity or puts a de-emphasis on it, what's left is a DPS race, with almost all other variables minimized or irrelevant.
Delta Rising seems to have a challenge increase attached to it. Normally I'd be fine with that, but since STO has been culturally a DPS-chasing "what the hell is a tank for" game for a long time now, it's only going to sharpen that over-focus to the point of making a good number of ships, including ones that have just been made for the expansion, basically pointless.
Why bring anything other than DPS? Why stalker fighters, ECM/countermeasure ships? Even healing seems to be a nice perk and not really a necessary focus when there's insert-build-with-Marion-or-A2B-here.
So, my point: this game's already an empty DPS race with no requirement for "trinity" roles, yet we have entire classes of captains and entire classes of ships that are not DPS and are therefore pointless, especially in the expansion ahead.
I do not think this is a good thing.
The problem is, like just about every game that drops the trinity or puts a de-emphasis on it, what's left is a DPS race, with almost all other variables minimized or irrelevant.
Delta Rising seems to have a challenge increase attached to it. Normally I'd be fine with that, but since STO has been culturally a DPS-chasing "what the hell is a tank for" game for a long time now, it's only going to sharpen that over-focus to the point of making a good number of ships, including ones that have just been made for the expansion, basically pointless.
Why bring anything other than DPS? Why stalker fighters, ECM/countermeasure ships? Even healing seems to be a nice perk and not really a necessary focus when there's insert-build-with-Marion-or-A2B-here.
So, my point: this game's already an empty DPS race with no requirement for "trinity" roles, yet we have entire classes of captains and entire classes of ships that are not DPS and are therefore pointless, especially in the expansion ahead.
I do not think this is a good thing.
Post edited by amalefactor on
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That's hardly a replacement by any means. No such thing is even suggested in the basic presentation of the game. There's "threat control" powers and skill point sinks that are basically worthless, among other things.
So, no, it's not a substitute, and even if it were, seems the only thing being brought to the table by the people fine with the upcoming state of the game is "I got mine, I got X dps". If the other "roles" you suggest are so viable, why aren't they mentioned anywhere else?
They are mentioned. I just talked about about my Debuffer Torp Boat the other day.
They're nowhere to be found outside of your novelty mention, and probably for good reason: they are not the absolute-super-dps-energy-spam-at-all-costs that is being showcased here.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ecH-Npklj8s
1 person out of every 300 plays a Buffer or Debuffer.
Chances are that same guy gets his dps metered by a third party program and the user of that program screams at him and calls him names.
Personal Taste is not the same thing as Nonviable.
A person playing with a 3rd Party Program is breaking the ToS and should be banned regardless of their name calling.
Wrong.
Look at Positron/Decker's recent thread about the new content and the new queue system: its a discussion of what level of DPS is demanded and not much else. That sounds nonviable to me: why bring anything but damage in this state of things, unless you mean to be someone's caddie and give them additional damage at the cost of your own (that's not much of a role).
Then you are playing the role poorly. Removing an enemy's weapons, engines, shields, and defense is a boon for the team.
That's why they're totally doing all of that in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ecH-Npklj8s It may be hard to notice because what you see is them doing none of that and instead spamming fire at will.
Even when Branflakes did his (in)famous playthrough of the old elite content some months back he and his friends brought fire at will and nothing that you mentioned. You may think it's "useful" and I'd like it to be useful, but with the content coming up you're going to be dead weight, and that is a bad state of things.
Is what the DPS League folks doing the minimum requirement - the content requirement - to do that content? Or are they doing what they enjoy doing?
Don't confuse the two...
I have pointed out that you can be beneficial beyond FaW. If you choose to believe otherwise, then you are welcomed to do so. In the mean time, you should consider redirecting this thread to the Academy Board. You are more likely to find help with your Build there.
that video is just the first playthrough and we where playing it like it was the current HSE. We've already realized it's going to require a change in tactics.
It's just like our Borg Disconnected Advanced run. we realized quickly that FAW wasn't working for us so we switched to CRF and BO+pen doffs.
We're not at the top of the game because we spam FAW. we're at the top of the game because we're skilled pilots, shipbuilders and strategists/tactitions.
I wish I could fly a 45 arc...meh.
When there's a good boat like that in a group the enemies tend to focus on it much more than others, especially if they're running threat control (which I do, I'll be the target anyway - may as well take the dmg res buff). That tends to make the run much smoother and easier for the rest of the team if the player flying that boat can handle the incoming dmg.
It's by no means required, I can do it on my escorts too - but it's much easier and can be kept up longer with a boat built for it.
It takes some getting used to, for sure. Especially trying it at high speeds.
Make no mistake, that is the incompetent parsers who are doing the yelling. The smart parsers know the difference between Pure Lowish DPS and Support Boat who is trading a chunk of Personal DPS for much greater Team DPS.
"Glass Cannons" can Tank.
When Tanks can put quite considerable damage.
When everybody can heal themselves quite well. And we're not even getting into the very effective cross-healing possible.
Quite correct. They're playing by old rules while everything else isn't.
Mm. The Old Rules have been ingrained in to gamers' minds. Habits can hard to break.
It is hard to look at this trinity concept and point out flaws in it, because on paper it is really a beautiful idea, a medic, a leader hero, and a group of sidekicks. Its a time tested formula not just in video games but in literature and film.
The impact of trinity gaming is that if you want to play a dps class, get ready to wait a long time to enjoy content in a que or to find a group through any kind of LFG ("looking for group") methods. The obvious reason is that all trinity mmo's have more dps classes on a team then tanks or healers, so tanking and healing roles are a premium. But, if you role a tank or a healer you pretty much get a group instantly. Also tanking (and to a degree healing) isnt as easy as dealing damage. The level of liabillity to the other party members is greater for a tank or a healer, so there is more pressure on them to be good at the role they play.
This imbalance creates a ton of problems in a social mmo. Tanks are often quite petulant and demanding, egotistical jerks. If you are a dps class, be prepared to play it the tank's way, at the tank's pace. SWTOR is really bad for this one, as its party content is narrative-driven. You can forget listening to the dialogue in SWTOR, because your tank just isnt having it. He can instantly join a game in a que, he has seen the dialogue 3 times in the time it took you to wait out the que. If you dont want to skip the cutscenes, the tank and healer can just vote kick you, and you can wait another half hour in the que.
Ergo, trinity is not fun, or at best, has the potential to create an environment that is not as fun as it was intended to be, particularly for people who do not choose to heal or tank.
Another problem with this trinity, related to que times and progressions is that you will get people who want to progress faster, so they will roll as a tank or healer and just be terrible at it.
These reasons and the social evolution of gaming is why the trinity is dying.
All that said, there is still room for these roles in games, in particular STO. While I wouldnt advocate beaing a pure healer, I am a tank to great effect. In a dps-race composition it really isnt necessary for me to tank, but not everyone plays that scene (in fact less than you think do, but they also dont do the forum scene either). I would submit that if you ar playing STO with a combat logger and minmaxing for that 1% more crit chance etc, you probobly wont last long, because this isnt exactly an MLG e-sport title.
I have seen countless people in the ques, and in my fleets who just arent dps machines, who want to play Star Trek with their choice of weapons and consoles and ships regardless of what the raw numbers tell them is better - This is fine. I am there for these people, taking aggro and ensuring they have the room to do their thing. Threat consoles, threat control skill, and cruiser commands let me take the whole map's aggro if I feel it is necessary, or I am in the mood for it.
It comes down to this: Is STO a scifi roleplaying game to be enjoyed and immerse yourself in, or is it a computer program of fixed variables to be manipulated and mastered. I will tell you this, if STO is the latter to you, you are gonna be disappointed because there really isnt challenge in sto when you min max.
STO as a DPS Race
Ther thing about dps racing, combat log result posting and competition in general is that the people who engage in this behavior most often need validation of their percieved superiority. Case in point: I have a ship comp I can run that will immensly boost your damage, but I will likely finish near the back of the pack in my own dps, though the combined team dps will be greater because of my efforts. Problem is people dont want to run this comp even though it is most efficiant to a team because there is no statistical way to prove in 5 lines of text that you are the key to the team's victory.
Dont let anyone tell you that all of STO is a pure dps race, because that is simply One way to play the game, and quite frankly, it isnt the most efficient. ISE wouldnt have been possible to beat in 120 seconds if I wasnt there with my beta spamming energy draining Recluse carrier, I dont care how many faw scimitars you have. It might not have been obvious in the 5 lines of dps results you posted in chat, but the teams combined dps? - That was all me.
Its a great game, and there are many many toys and methods to play with, dps racing isnt the 'meta' - it is simply the one that the try-hards and scrubs will fall back on because it is the one that will satisfy their need to validate their self-percieved superiority through a simplistic score tally.
The T5U version will still only have the 2 tac slots, and to be honest, the both of us feel like its just going to be left behind, upgraded or not.
Which is a shame because you don't see too many of them, even after the free give away, they are slow for a science ship, but they are extremely tankie, something they love. (their hull and shield are amazingly high, something like 50k/20k) I had suggested the voth palisade (T5U gives it 3 tac) but its not an easy thing to just make 100 mil EC anymore.
However I'm not sure what the solution is, if any really. Perhaps the only thing really would be to increase the dps on some purely support vessels so that they can continue to do good damage while also having the fun science toys to play with.
When playing as science you have to realize you don't have 6 skills that boost your damage by a combined total of 300%. What you do have is the ability to pull a large mob together and with the proper skills/consoles vape that mob in 1 fell swoop. If you want to have even more fun go up against a mission boss mob in a carrier use all of your pets / photonic fleet / nimbus pirates / sensor scan and watch what is known as "The Swarm" most single targets die very very fast from this trick. My point is the trinity does work if you know how to use it. The issue with this? 90% of the game is copycat cookie cutter tac builds and this is a fact.
The solution is that you play the game the way you want to play the game, and dont submit to the idea that it is all about simplistic tallying of damage numbers. Do not feel inferior to other players because their combat log parser in chat puts you at the bottom of the list, because I can lay out a ton of builds that you can take into a dps race and have a huge impact on the dps.
If you want to min max, and reduce the scope of the game to a number race, and treat STO like a closed system of ones and zeros, thats fine too.
Im bet my Simitar: the R.R.W. Boring can hit 30k dps on ISE with my monitor turned off
Interesting Observation:
Every single time someone posts their combat log results in chat, identifying them as someone who believes dps is the be all end all of STO, they are at the top of the list, if their log didnt put them on top, they wouldnt post it.
Furthermore, these dps loggers are pretty flawed, and until the combat log tracker includes every bit of damage dealt across the entire map regardless of the proximity to the player's ship whos log has been parsed And omits damage dealt to intended invulnerable targets like the ISE gate before the prior objectives are completed, no one needs to be impressed by these completely meaningless tallies of damage.
-One ship role for every ship leads to either a lack of variety in ship configurations or a lot of useless ships
-Encourages players to mainly overcome enemy HP, rather than have diverse goals
-Boring gameplay with lack of support of strategy
-Downplays existing abilities that doesn't contribute to damage
-Some MMO vets prefer character roles
-Limits other gameplay content aspects
Those are just off the top of my head. This obsession for DPS DPS DPS is just bad in general.
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