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NPC Health Scaling : How to ruin an expansion
duncanidaho11
Member Posts: 7,980 Arc User
So with weeks and weeks of "testing" under my belt I think I can successfully summarize the ultimate experiene of playing DR:
Horrible.
Now that has nothing to do with the AI behavior, combat mechanics, art, writing, additional features, level design, or the placeholder nature of a lot of this content. I'm actually quite impressed by all of those. Its all to do with how much health the NPC's gain as you approach and hit level 60.
Its unreasonable, its unfathomable, its nightmarish. Even if you want to make the game innately more difficult (which IMO is already accomplished by the abilities, reactions, and deployment of the new enemy units) that can in no way justify doubling or (in some cases) tripling the health of equivalent NORMAL enemy units between holodeck's level 50 and tribble's level 60. Our stats, abilities, and equipment (especially on a first NORMAL playthrough) are not increasing anywhere near that scale nor is the end result of extreme NPC health innately more challenging. Its simply more arduous, more tedious, more boring, and far less playable. Its represents a sudden and dramatic shift in gameplay pacing (and therefore structure) which all else besides is undesirable for any addition to an otherwise consistent game.
Its mechanically bad game design.
Plenty have chimed in on this in the "Better with friends" feedback thread (see. those comments directed towards the Zahl (or Zhal?) system patrol) and in the Vaadwaur space combat thread, but a thread dedicated to this singular and potentially ruinous issue seems very appropriate (especially since now I don't have to keep banging on about it. :P)
NPC health needs to be drastically scaled back. Level 60 space combat, as it exists on tribble ATM, cannot be allowed to ship because it does not provide an enjoyable experience except in a masochistic sense. It will directly undermine every other development of Delta Rising and even existing content, as that is failed to be supported by what would otherwise be a great expansion pack.
In short, Cryptic do not **** up STO. Scale back enemy health. If there is any interest in making a "harder", less accommodating, less approachable game keep those developments to the new Elite. Do NOT rupture core gameplay.
Horrible.
Now that has nothing to do with the AI behavior, combat mechanics, art, writing, additional features, level design, or the placeholder nature of a lot of this content. I'm actually quite impressed by all of those. Its all to do with how much health the NPC's gain as you approach and hit level 60.
Its unreasonable, its unfathomable, its nightmarish. Even if you want to make the game innately more difficult (which IMO is already accomplished by the abilities, reactions, and deployment of the new enemy units) that can in no way justify doubling or (in some cases) tripling the health of equivalent NORMAL enemy units between holodeck's level 50 and tribble's level 60. Our stats, abilities, and equipment (especially on a first NORMAL playthrough) are not increasing anywhere near that scale nor is the end result of extreme NPC health innately more challenging. Its simply more arduous, more tedious, more boring, and far less playable. Its represents a sudden and dramatic shift in gameplay pacing (and therefore structure) which all else besides is undesirable for any addition to an otherwise consistent game.
Its mechanically bad game design.
Plenty have chimed in on this in the "Better with friends" feedback thread (see. those comments directed towards the Zahl (or Zhal?) system patrol) and in the Vaadwaur space combat thread, but a thread dedicated to this singular and potentially ruinous issue seems very appropriate (especially since now I don't have to keep banging on about it. :P)
NPC health needs to be drastically scaled back. Level 60 space combat, as it exists on tribble ATM, cannot be allowed to ship because it does not provide an enjoyable experience except in a masochistic sense. It will directly undermine every other development of Delta Rising and even existing content, as that is failed to be supported by what would otherwise be a great expansion pack.
In short, Cryptic do not **** up STO. Scale back enemy health. If there is any interest in making a "harder", less accommodating, less approachable game keep those developments to the new Elite. Do NOT rupture core gameplay.
Bipedal mammal and senior Foundry author.
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
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I mean you can clear Tholian RA in tau deva in 3-4 minutes solo atm without even trying, lulzing in borg RA, when you limited only by full impulse speed to reach each mini encounter.
But scaling only HP is not only answer, scale damage same way, power creep of player ships is out of hand, so throw brick in our face to wake us up.
So increase the difficulty level. If you need an excuse to exude more bravado [or alternatively provide a greater personal challenge] there are game mechanics built in to suit you. Cryptic does not need to radically change the pacing and balance of this video game because you can't be ****ing bothered to stick to the new elite.
And "more HP" isn't really the half of it. I've found on NORMAL a vaadwuar cruiser at 50 has ~77k health (which is equivalent to what we see from the Undine now). At 59 it has ~180k. More than twice the health with just a little leveing and you know what that does to combat? It streatches it out. It doesn't make it more satisfying to one's ego, it just ruins gameplay pacing. And mind you this is just in NORMAL STORY CONTENT (ie. not anywhere were it would be appropriate to take your point of view.)
Again, this is bad game design according to any reasonable/informed standard for it. You don't drop spikes in the difficulty curve, you don't scale NPC health like this. You may prefer less squishy NPC's but that in no way justifies what cryptic is doing here. Its inappropriate to the context of where this change is taking place and the scale of the change as well.
Should health increase? Yes, but not like this.
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
The NPC ships health can't be intented to be like this. The fights are annoyingly long, which becomes boring.
Currently lvl 60 Normal space episode missions on the test server, feel harder than lvl 50 Elite space content (STFs, fleet actions, etc...) on the live server.
The difficulty jump between lvl50 Ground Combat and DR lvl60 Ground Combat isn't this drastic.
So why is space combat?
And before anyone makes the comment about the "statement" that DR is surpose to be harder.. That seems like what the new Elite mode is for.
If you want harder content, turn your own difficulty up, Advance(old elite) and the new Elite mode is your friend then.
But this? This can't be working as intended. Just no, sorry.
Spock to Kirk, as Kirk is about to hug him.
Star Trek V: "The Final Frontier"
No just do not!
Space Combat vs. the Vaadwaur
Cryptic's way is right. That which is on Holodeck currently, is much too simple.
I say only: Infected Space Elite in 1-2 minutes with optional or, a Scimitar clear the instance in a solo run. Here's something wrong.
The NPC'S now endure a lot more and those fighting take a little longer, is great.
This post has been edited to remove content which violates the Perfect World Entertainment Community Rules and Policies . ~Bluegeek
Space combat against the Vaadwuar is a SPECIFIC TOPIC (that should relate to the particular combat mechanics employed by that species.) Does that include Kazon combat or any other variety? ****ing no. I and several others have been using that very thread (thanks for linking but you should try reading it) and its become clear that this issue is at a greater scale than is appropriate to discuss there.
Hell I made that point in my OP. :rolleyes:
So can you make it through Breach Elite or Undine Assault elite in 1-2 minutes? No you can't because cryptic has been trying to accommodate the power creep with progressively more challenging PVE's. That is what the new elite setting is for.
There is absolutely no justification for extreme NPC health scaling in NORMAL STORY CONTENT. Its well beyond what we're seeing now [at 50] in the more demanding elite PVE's and for that reason its unreasonable to expect the bulk of the player base to in any way appreciate it (try thinking about the game as a functional entity and you might be able to participate in discussion.) Now they would appreciate SOME difficulty increase in line with a few upgrades, specialization points, and greater experience but that tweak is on an enitrely different planet to a 2x to 3x multiplier.
Harder difficulty settings should exist for those that are bored with content that wasn't originally balanced for their level of play in mind. That need does not excuse objectively bad game design practices in other sections of the game.
No blithe application of personal preferences as real standards, no pathetic posturing, this is **** that needs fixing.
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
And thats what the new elite mode is for. Change your own difficulty to that.
But this topic is about normal episode missions, not elite STFs. Episode missions on normal shouldn't be as hard as Elite STFs.
Spock to Kirk, as Kirk is about to hug him.
Star Trek V: "The Final Frontier"
edit: Mind you, it's a bit of bait 'n switch on the folks they pulled into the game during those years and kept around. Yeah, it's a MMO and subject to change (it changed in the first place that it would be in a position to change back)...but folks that grew accustomed to that pacing won't be happy - like they haven't been happy with various things in the past year. Cryptic did it to themselves...
The adjustment isn't new but the extreme nature is. I do remember what STO was like to play years back and with a considerably worse build and where we are with health scaling puts my upgraded, game breaking fleet assault cruiser quite a bit further back (in terms of pacing) than my mine wielding patrol escort.
I can appreciate that they want to try to get more gameplay out of the current format by taking the emphasis off the one combo-volley space kill (hell I'd welcome it if properly done) but this normal setting [at the very least[ seems to have been balanced for yet another level increase in mind. Its too drastic, and even if it in some way resembles "what STO was" (even further back than my own experience may include) the fact that it radically departs from what STO is undermines it. The game should have more consistency (especially for those who haven't yet found the extreme end of the power creep.)
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
Unfortunately, hiking health instead of making NPC's AI better is the lazy way to go around in making " harder" content. Forcing all ships to do DPS centric builds in order to get through content makes the game less fun.
Giving NPCs 12 abilities and hiking their HP only to keep up with new weapons would have been better.
Not sure, how many episodes of DS9 involved a large battle? That many. (but I see what you mean and I do appreciate that motivation. STO does need a change of pace but as things are currently setup the change is too extreme especially now that we have an additional difficulty level for those who don't think that normal and "advanced are enough.)
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
You do realize your whole argument centers on hiking DPS. To hell with science then?
Featured Episodes became F-Key Episodes...just spam the F-Key through the story and spacebar or 1-key through the combat...move on to the next toon, do it again.
But again, Cryptic catered to that style of play and having folks running multiple alts while making it easier to run alts, right? Sponsorship tokens, reduced cost unlocks, etc, etc, etc.
Enter DR and how long it's going to take folks to do stuff with those alts - how expensive it will be to upgrade those alts.
They foster a group - they abandon a group...over and over and over.
I don't think he realizes a whole lot in trying to argue that gameplay for UAE should be made the standard for all of STO. You can't use a personal preference for one or the other setting to decide how an entire game is balanced. I for example am well equipped to plow through DR even as it has been balanced but that doesn't justify NPC health scaling for the STO population, particularly when my experience has been of tedious, over-long combat (that may well be unapproachable to most other people).
I guess that puts me in the unfortunate position of trying to think of whats best for others (here comes the tyrant) but the ultimate point [which is apart from that] is that while there are those at the edge of the power creep who will obliterate content balanced like the previous normal, the game shouldn't be readjusted to make THIS the new expected standard for customary story gameplay (and I'm sure cryptic has the population statistics to make this more than an assumption.)
Scale it up, but not this far.
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
Making NORMAL game-play that folks are used to through Level-50, suddenly jump to ELITE at Level-51 is just going to create a Forum Storm-surge and drive a very large portion of the player-base away in frustration.
ELITE MODE is for players that find the game "boring", NORMAL is for folks that wish to enjoy the Star Trek Motif and make it to the end of a mission with some sense of accomplishment.
(not spend 10 minutes-plus, trying to defeat one enemy ship and ultimately failing)
They created THREE MODES of play in the game for a reason, it would be quite foolish to make them all feel similar at this point.
One would think that the Cryptic Dev's are well aware of this.
If D.R. hits with these game mechanics in place, it won't be long before They begin to see a drop in revenue and will quickly adjust (Nerf) NORMAL game play back.
People who demand a harder game, perhaps may want to go to the OPTIONS Window and investigate just where the Difficulty Adjustment Button is...
BTW: I have played the whole game on Advanced since day one and will continue to do so through this new expansion.
But I have never expected the Dev's to cater to my whims at the expense of the rest of the player-base.
:cool:
I Was A Trekkie Before It Was Cool ... Sept. 8th, 1966 ... Not To Mention Before Most Folks Around Here Were Born!
Forever a STO Veteran-Minion
Nah, I myself have got a hello kitty bridge crew here in STO and probably have had a more successful time trying to clear our dreadnaughts from the Zahl system patrol than you (I have absolutely no idea what you're flying but I somehow suspect I've put more thought into my builds) and I think he's in a similar situation as well (perhaps minus the hello kitty bridge crew but again I can't really say).
That said, we can still find that the new content has been badly balanced for there is more to video games (and video game discussions) than trying to overcompensate. :P
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
But the Time to kill in Star Trek online doesn't really seem right to me, Far too many quick kills and enemies with no bite, as it stands on tribble maybe its taking it too far but I welcome longer battles ( With the condition that the number of enemy vessels is reduced )
Ideally for me I'd like it if fights were longer but fewer resulting in a similar mission play time, But still giving the impression of tougher enemies.
This is largely because I tire of destroying 3 frigates, then another 3 frigates , then a cruiser over and over again. It gives a really skewed perception of Trek combat where you can solo fight the same number of ships that would form a small fleet or battlegroup
I don't want a Kazon raider with 260k hp, however.
It isn't because I don't want a challenge, it's because Kazon were a joke to an underpowered, under armed science vessel.
As to the health of the enemies in Delta. /shrug. Where normal sits now is where advanced should be, in my opinion. There's just a bit too much drag in patrol missions on normal. It isn't that the enemies are too hard - but for the rewards offered - the fight length isn't worth it. The average player is going to skip every patrol mission just because 'it isn't worth it'.
On 'Normal' enemy NPC's should have health comparable to the player, on Advanced - double our health, and on Elite three times. With power and skill usage increasing accordingly.
Yep, the sheer number of ships we destroy - the almost genocidal warfare we wage - just doesn't really feel like Star Trek. If it were fewer ships but tougher ships or for groups something that scaled along those lines...
It's like looking at Starbase 24, eh?
Just looking at the Negh'Var that have to be destroyed...20 of them...Negh'Var has a crew of 2500...that's 50,000 KDF KIA right there. That's not counting the crew from the 50 other ships you have to blow up first nor the other ships blown up while blowing up the 20 Negh'Var.
Just doesn't feel very Star Trek...meh.
But regardless, when you compare the health only, it's not horrible, or even that difficult - it just takes too much time. Taking effort and challenge, even a little more time, sure - but not this much.
Been playing STO since Open Beta, and have never regarded anything as worse than 'meh', if only due to personal standards.
In any case, an increase in health doesn't actually favor the DPS-centric builds, because many of the high end DPS builds tend to be rather fragile. If the enemy doesn't die fast enough (such as with more health) then the DPSer dies. Having more health prolongs battles, yes, but it also forces people to put more survivability on their ships if they can't kill the enemy before it kills them.
All for a gradual increase, certainly - but this level of increase is risky
Been playing STO since Open Beta, and have never regarded anything as worse than 'meh', if only due to personal standards.
The devs think that NPCs need more health at this level? Fine. Every level of gameplay ups enemy HP a bit, that's how it works. But the sheer size of the gap here, and on normal difficulty no less, is just stupid. It doesn't make things challenging unless you're swarmed, it just makes the fights drag on way too long.
If you you like your enemies with 200k+ health and think that the story or character-heavy missions are a waste of time, then go to elite mode and stop telling people how to have fun.
Admiral Dananra Lekall - R.R.W. Teverresh, Deihu-class Warbird
General J'Kar son of K'tsulan - I.K.S. Dlahath, Vo'devwl-class Carrier
I don't believe that's the case myself. Scaling them in general, sure, but not to these giant numbers - it seems a lot more geometrical than linear
Been playing STO since Open Beta, and have never regarded anything as worse than 'meh', if only due to personal standards.
Well its certainly plausible that what we are seeing is placeholder stats
Infact it makes sense, If the devs want to put more of a challenge into the game, setting the bar too high and revising down is better for the long term than setting it too low and having to revise up
so if you have raider with 200k hull, maybe you did some advanced/elite difficulty missions
ingame: @Felisean
The problem is, with these forums, it's usually assumed what they're seeing now is set in stone. And that's what I meant by intentional; that these are the intentional final numbers, and nothing can change them.
Been playing STO since Open Beta, and have never regarded anything as worse than 'meh', if only due to personal standards.
*wakes up*
Oh s***, fell asleep during space combat again. But hey, everything is finally dead! :P
I will say that I also only noticed the high HP scaling with the Vaadwaur. I had no issues with other Delta Quadrant races which I could dispatch in a timely manner.