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Respect for Sci in PvP
rck01
Member Posts: 808 Arc User
They say you can't judge a person unless you walk a while in his (or her) shoes. And nowhere is this truer than in STO PvP. Simply put, being a Sci player in PvP is HARD.
But first, some background. As a long time single-toon F2P player ("Jacob Lightener"), I've spent the bulk of my 2+ years in STO playing a Fed (Human) Tac Officer. My play style has revolved around weapons power, buff timing and, for want of a better description, brute force.
So when I ran out of things to grind for I decided to go in a radical new direction and roll a Reman Sci officer (KDF-aligned). I had long admired the frustratingly hard to kill Sci players from HoBO, et al (Ivan, Dius, Kell - I'm looking at you), and I figured that, if a previously tac-oriented player like my precious little "Neepa! Neepa!" can master the role, so can I.
Boy was I wrong.
Not only do I SUCK as a Sci, I'm not entirely sure how to improve. With my Fed Tac, the answer was simple: Better timing, better weapons, better shields/armor/consoles. No matter how you tweaked the underlying "Meta" game, the key to victory was the same: Blast the TRIBBLE out of the other guy while surviving their attacks against you.
With Sci, OTOH, the play style is much more subtle. From what I can tell, it's all about stacking debuffs, draining powers and immobilizing your enemy until they somehow implode. The problem is that, while I can cast a mean Grav Well, I can rarely finish anyone off, especially if I'm flying a pure Sci ship like a Ha'nom.
And if I forgoe the pure Sci focus, and fly something more "tactical" like a Ha'feh, I can't generate enough DPS to make the build effective - even with some decent Purple Mark 12 weapons and copious experience fighting tac-style. My opening Sensor Scan seems like a fairly weak skill, and even the vaunted Subnuc (which every Tac officer dreams of being able to cast while in combat) feels underwhelming.
In other words, I'm still scrambling to figure out a "winning" Sci play style that fits my skill set, disposition and budget ("clicky-clicky" = expensive). And as I continue to thrash around ineffectively, my respect only grows for those who make it look so easy.
Because it's NOT...
RCK
But first, some background. As a long time single-toon F2P player ("Jacob Lightener"), I've spent the bulk of my 2+ years in STO playing a Fed (Human) Tac Officer. My play style has revolved around weapons power, buff timing and, for want of a better description, brute force.
So when I ran out of things to grind for I decided to go in a radical new direction and roll a Reman Sci officer (KDF-aligned). I had long admired the frustratingly hard to kill Sci players from HoBO, et al (Ivan, Dius, Kell - I'm looking at you), and I figured that, if a previously tac-oriented player like my precious little "Neepa! Neepa!" can master the role, so can I.
Boy was I wrong.
Not only do I SUCK as a Sci, I'm not entirely sure how to improve. With my Fed Tac, the answer was simple: Better timing, better weapons, better shields/armor/consoles. No matter how you tweaked the underlying "Meta" game, the key to victory was the same: Blast the TRIBBLE out of the other guy while surviving their attacks against you.
With Sci, OTOH, the play style is much more subtle. From what I can tell, it's all about stacking debuffs, draining powers and immobilizing your enemy until they somehow implode. The problem is that, while I can cast a mean Grav Well, I can rarely finish anyone off, especially if I'm flying a pure Sci ship like a Ha'nom.
And if I forgoe the pure Sci focus, and fly something more "tactical" like a Ha'feh, I can't generate enough DPS to make the build effective - even with some decent Purple Mark 12 weapons and copious experience fighting tac-style. My opening Sensor Scan seems like a fairly weak skill, and even the vaunted Subnuc (which every Tac officer dreams of being able to cast while in combat) feels underwhelming.
In other words, I'm still scrambling to figure out a "winning" Sci play style that fits my skill set, disposition and budget ("clicky-clicky" = expensive). And as I continue to thrash around ineffectively, my respect only grows for those who make it look so easy.
Because it's NOT...
RCK
Post edited by rck01 on
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Anyway, I built a Science Scimitar, which is Fed aligned. I guess you want to do what I do as well, so here's how you can get a vape as a sci.
So, this is what I use http://gateway.startrekonline.com/#char(Lara Khan's Counterpart@riccardo171)/ship-equipment
Instead of relying on buffing your damage, you debuff the target, and sometimes it is even better this way, as if multiple ships focus on your target, it will die.
If you have a hard time getting a good firing arc, buy a subspace jumper. I did because of Subnucleonic Beam and Scimitar's crazy powerslide.
If you see that your target is moving extremely fast, and has a lot of buffs, you should pick that one. In fact, you will know for sure that he won't be able to defend himself having the majority of bridge powers unavailable after a well placed SNB. Drop a sensor scan, tractor it, bang.
It is the opposite of being a tac, where you pick weaker targets to score a kill, and do it as fast as you can to avoid a possible counter, like RSP.
There is always a sic FOTM that exploits the weakness of the TAC FOTM. Go for that and go all in and you should be able to generate kills on your own, usually, but not always, in a sci/sci.
Tac's like to kirk and complain about not being kept alive, lets face it, eng/tanks were never the true kirks of STO. It's the tac/scort that goes at it, complaining that the rest of the team doesn't support it enough, because MY_ISE_LOGS_are_da_BOMB and how come you fat recluse isn't next to me when i need it.
If you go in as a team find you favorite position in the hacking order of the sci. Are you the healer and tertiary snb, or the fast-turning debuffing first line of attack? Teamwork with other sci is the most fun to be had in STO.
When pugging you need to look at your team, and decide what is needed, identify the least terrible team-mate and support what ever it is that he/she is doing. Maybe that turns you into a heal heavy role, maybe it means reading your teammates alpha and GDF timers more then anything else, maybe you really need to take care of the opposing science because they are better at cc/ing your own team, so make sure to have cleanses or disruptive stuff against the opposing sci.
Pugging sci well is an oxymoron. Eng healing is straight forward...keep everyone's hull above 0%, Tac Kirking is easy make hull go to 0%. In every instance the better you perform that one task, the better you and your team is doing.
Sci, on the other hand and especially in pug land, needs to decide on the spot, what is needed in a given match, and play accordingly. Chances are you don't have the best option with you for a given match, so you ll have to change what you can and make do. Finding a niches for secondary uses of your build that aren't horribad can be a lot of fun. As in RL science =read....read....read! Then work as part of a community, to push the whole a tiny bit forward. Forget your performance, its your contribution to the team that counts.
a history of sto pvp: 2010 - 2011
a history of sto pvp: 2012 - 2013
Because my kdf sci sci flies a no tac ability palisade that works veryyy nicely. It's not even really equipted very well and it is a rather capable ship. Also, it is fun watching hulls melt with their shields still up, or just to annoy them total disable mayhem with some viral matrices.
Either a Mirror Ha'nom (for full-on Sci-ness), or a Ha'feh (for the "tac with a subnuke" style of play).
With the Ha'nom, I'm able to spec out a fairly nasty GW3 by stocking up on 2x particle gen consoles, 1x grav gen console, a voth re-frequencer console with the gravgen modifier (+20), and the Solanae space set (3 piece).
In PvE it's like a giant hoover, pulling stuff from all over the map. But after that, it's a mixed bag. I've tried TBR2, for example, and it knocks NPCs around nicely. But in PvP, neither skill seems to do much for me.
Most players can escape a GW with EPtE, Omega, etc. I know I've never had much trouble getting out of them in my Fed Tac escorts. And TBR doesn't seem to do all that much damage vs. well armored and buffed opponents.
Note that I've also tried to stack SA as much as possible, and also use SS3 and SNB3. But the combined effect hasn't been as potent as I would have expected. Perhaps it's because, after debuffing a target, I have so little firepower to do much else. I need others to swoop and and finish them, which runs counter to every instinct my Tac-focused experience has drilled into me over the years.
And if I *do* give in to the urge and attack them, I often find myself crumbling rather quickly under their return fire, especially from a seasoned Tac. This despite the Ha'nom's 1.3 shield modifier, decent shield power (though most is in Aux), TSS2, ST1, EPtS2 or RSP1 to keep the shields up.
I even tried an FBP3-centric build with TBR2 as a secondary option and was shocked with everyone didn't just "pop" around me. I suspect I may have run into a bunch of fellow Sci captains, which generally speaking = nobody shooting anybody anyway.
As for the Ha'feh, it's more a matter of gear than anything else. I need some Locators/Exploiters, a better space set (Solanae is not a tac-focused set), another SRO (currently I'm at 10.x% CrtH - ugh!) and some Doffs to improve survivability and reduce CDs on things like my attack patterns. But at least here I know *what* to do to improve my play style - it's simply the grind ahead (and the fact that Exchange market values have collapsed, killing the once lucrative farming path to riches) that has me feeling discouraged.
Bottom Line: I'll stick with it - I've spent too many hours levelling this toon to just give up. However, I have to accept that it will be a long, tiring climb before I'll ever reach the level of effectiveness I achieved with my Fed Tac.
RCK
A sci drainer on my team means my team wins. A generic sub nuke is all fine and dandy. But when a skilled drainer times his vacuum with my alpha. Almost a guaranteed kill...
It's almost boring. A pug doesn't stand a chance and a great player will have issues...
Now particle sci guys...always been unfun and annoying to play against.
It's always this garbage scenario:
FBP sci: Hey, why are you running in 1v1?
Me: Because I'm not going to stand around and shoot at you with fbp running.
No ****?
And this is the new meta...can't wait for the new rollover...
Other sci guys...gravity well/tractor beam sci's aren't too helpful on a team. Sci torp boats are near useless
Snoopers have a place but the games of tons of rommies in the queues has long since past so also a niche role
So healers and drainers....you guys are the ****, you guys male the match happen and can swing it either way.
Particle fbpers...you are the odd job of sto. Cheap and unfun to play against. Feedback pulse will always be the most table flipping skill.
The rest? I haven't seen any other builds that are worth mentioning as a shout out
My PvE/PvP hybrid skill tree
Interesting. Frankly, stacking flow caps and then casting Tkyens (or whatever) - perhaps supported by a GW to slow their escape - sounds like a viable strategy. It's also something that can be achieved without copious rep or fleet gear (though Embassy FCs would be the best option).
In fact, I've found "pure" sci skills to be some of the easiest to buff without breaking the bank. The consoles - even Rare Mark 12's - are relatively cheap on Exchange, and some of the freebie sets (Jem Hadar) are spec'd to support drain.
Might be time to rethink my Grav/Particle-focused strategy and think about a drain-focused build...
Thanks!
RCK
5 embassy MK XII flow consoles, astrophysicist trait, jemmy deflector, maxed flow capacitors skill, and you can get to 300 already ^^
Edit: works really well on a fed vesta with aux cannons, they dont' drain your aux power at all, and you're not completely reliant on your team to be super duper either, subnuc, drain, and pew pew. Having the tac vesta universal on the sci vesta is really nice too, that quantum focus phaser though
But it also means that if you're vigilant enough, you can do some wonderful things even with low-tier abilities. Take Tractor Beam for example. Yes, if you're flying the Vesta you can use Danoobs instead, but that's not the main point. TB1 is all you need, and if you snatch the enemy when they're not using Omega or some other ability that makes them immune, they're sitting, or rather slowly moving, ducks.
Or Scramble Sensors - very nice counter to enemy FaW, plus it can seriously complicate things for their healer(s). And again, SS1 is all you need.
Does the enemy tac have all his buffs on? Besides the subnuc, you can slap Viral Matrix on him. I also like to fly as close to him as I can and use the PSW. The stun (the repel is pointless) may be brief, but it can often take the enemy off balance and give your team enough time to escape.
I personally never liked movement debuffs and drains. I haven't used such builds for quite some time, but back then it seemed to me that they require too much specialization for very small improvement. So I decided to stick to disables with a sprinkle of confuses. But since I'm flying the Vesta, that's just my point of view.
PS: DDIS once said this, and I think it is still valid.
I've seen one guy run a nasty massive grav well+grav torpedo build effectively in PvP.
That's what I've been running too on my Sci B'rel since I made it in December. Those aftershock doffs can be really nasty and trap someone in a strong GW3. I always chuckle to myself if people drop their Photonic Fleets or Nimbus while being trapped (bonus points if they're running pets), so my gravtorp spread has even more targets and can proc even moar mini grav wells and melt people.
I haven't fully specced into partigen, but this stuff can really hurt some players. If someone would seriously spec into this with very high partigen and gravgen as well as PM the results could be spectacular.
I really struggled with my scis at first, but once I stopped trying to play like a tac in a sci ship I improved and started using powers and skills that annoyed the @#$% out of me as a tac.
I lean towards scis being kinetic dmg dealers in terms of weapons, beams are only there for the procs. So that is one power level you can completely forget about.
I tend to also think that powers such as TR, SS as more team based powers. My default sci setups normally have Torp Spread, Gravimetric Torp, Cluster, Tractor Mines and such. Powers are normally PSW, TBR, EWP, VM perhaps. A 30 second PSW with aftershock doffs is very nice.
Ultimately I find sci to be the most challenging, versatile and ever changing.
Gardiner, Suval, Thran
Korvak, Raketh, Xedar, Zidow
Decis, Vesok
Personally I got tired of running into this so I tried to copy the build for Tactical use. Instead I built a Wells Torp boat. I learned how to integrate Science skills and Tac skills that gave me a nice all around survivable ship. But let's face it unless you are running a speed build with a cloak you are cannon fodder in "Kerrat." Science ships suck unless you have a lockbox version. Believe me I know I nearly quit two years ago after the constant nerfing of sci skills which made my Intrepid unusable. If I hadn't of gotten a Wells I might have gone the way of Kaine in his Klingon Carrier "OL Reliable". We had a loser leaves STO match... so far he has stayed away.
tyken and gw have shared coldown.
Vin Naftero@playhard88 - FED Sciencie
K'tan@playhard88 - KDF Tactical
Argento@playhard88 - RRF Tactical (FED)
Tell this to the Vesta line. They are truly epic science vessels.
they are good ships indeed, but you can't start to compare them with the wells. Sadly the wells make all the other sci ships useless in comparison, and now with the 5 sci console, it will take the small place that the paladize was filling.
I already throwed the orb weaver to the trash, now i'm going to throw the paladize. Not buying the temporal was probably the biggest mistake i made in this game, his perfect boff layout + the high impulse modifier has no rival
Vin Naftero@playhard88 - FED Sciencie
K'tan@playhard88 - KDF Tactical
Argento@playhard88 - RRF Tactical (FED)
Yeah, the Wells is some awesome sauce. Probably the best perk about the Vesta is the hangar bay, that can be filled with some nasty pets.
Poor soul didnt have time to log out.
Trapping entire team along with pets in high damage GW and watching them getting bounced around=priceless.
I call it ship grinder
example from one of my vids cca 250k damage in 6 sec by GW :
http://youtu.be/8YoaQbgztEE?t=4m20s
But Wells is not alpha and omega, it is very good(best) in defensive/saboteur role, Dyson and Vesta are far better in hybrid/multi tasks.
New season will show even more that hybrid sci/tac ships and setups are ones that will forever rule in pvp.
Shame that i got bored of STO(tried it tonight after 2 month break and felt no excitement in 2 pvp games i got into)
Super SpecialStar Trek Online Review
SpecialTemporal PUG 100K DPS Build
We are Travelers
You really think that the Wells has a 'perfect boff layout'? Its movement is clearly superior to a Palisade, but at least for me the Palisade has a stronger bo layout. I'll take another Lt. Commander Ability over an Ensign one, even if it costs one boff trait slot.
What should a Defiant say with its normal, non-innate cloak?
Defiants, Raptors and all the other ships with a normal cloak are at least safe from snoopers since going to red alert automatically decloaks and raises shields, while battle cloakers (especially bops) can be one shotted while cloaked.