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Canon BoPs - large Bird of Prey
dpsloss88
Member Posts: 765 Arc User
Finally found a prime universe rendition of the large Bird of Prey. Look at Season 6 episode 7 of TNG, "Rascals". Ferengi attack with 2 Birds of Prey very clearly almost as large as the Enterprise.
Some of you delusional types will argue that they only look big, but in the episode they easily defeat the Enterprise only taking minimal battle damage. Then their crews board the Enterprise and capture the entire Enterprise crew. A Bird of Prey Scout could not possibly carry enough Ferengi to board a capital ship.
The Pagh from "Matter of Honor" TNG was also similar to a K'Vort class ship according to "The Star Trek Encyclopedia". It was classified as a B'rel, so STO has the B'rel confused with scout versions.
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/IKS_Pagh
Some of you delusional types will argue that they only look big, but in the episode they easily defeat the Enterprise only taking minimal battle damage. Then their crews board the Enterprise and capture the entire Enterprise crew. A Bird of Prey Scout could not possibly carry enough Ferengi to board a capital ship.
The Pagh from "Matter of Honor" TNG was also similar to a K'Vort class ship according to "The Star Trek Encyclopedia". It was classified as a B'rel, so STO has the B'rel confused with scout versions.
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/IKS_Pagh
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Canon® - It's tough to accept sometimes.
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Klingon_Bird-of-Prey
From the Star Trek: Deep Space Nine Technical Manual:
Dimensions:
Length, 157.76 meters; beam, 181.54 meters; height, 98.54 meters (B'rel).
Length, 678.36 meters; beam, 780.62 meters; height, 423.72 meters (K'Vort)
Note the CANON K'vort, used throughout TNG and DS9 in various episodes...
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Galaxy_class
From the Star Trek: Deep Space Nine Technical Manual:
Dimensions:
Length: 642.51 meters
Beam: 463.73 meters
Height: 195.26 meters
If you note the numbers, the K'Vort class is actually bigger than the Galaxy class...
So indeed, Canon is sometimes hard to accept... isn't it?
Indeed
In the episode in question, they don't identify which type of BOP was used:
However the shot is a reused effects shot from 'Yesterday's Enterprise' and YES they were K'Vort class.
If I ask you a question it is not an insult but a genuine attempt to understand why.
When I insult you I won't be discreet about it, I will be precise and to the point stupid.
What gameplay niche would it fit that isn't already covered by battlecruisers?
While there IS a K'vort class, it has been shown at different times to be large or small depending on the needs of the plot. I wouldn't want a BoP as large as the Galaxy. It would probably have as bad if not worse handling as the big cruisers.
I'd settle for a 25% to 50% increase with a 3rd rear weapon and my missing 5th Boff slot. Something between the Hegh'ta and the B'rel with the missing abilities noted above, would be awesome for me personally.
"There... are... four... lights!" ~Jean Luc Picard
Except that the DS9 manual's numbers are garbage. They were calculated based on using a ruler to measure pictures found in the Encyclopedia, which were NOT to scale. Bernard Schneider has an excellent article on this.
http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/articles/scaling.htm
http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/articles/size_table.htm
They don't like canon Klingon vessels that are onscreen and even titled, yet Cryptic implements KDF / Starfleet / Romulan usable Species 8472, Jem'Hadar, or any non-faction specific playable vessel. They're handing out free cloaks.
Yet Cryptic is not comfortable with implementing the K'Vort-class.
We have Space Hippy Romulans led by a man who is trying his best to suck up to his Vulcan "betters." We have pathetic Borg. We're about to have the pathetic Khazon, the bums of the Delta Quadrant who are somehow going to be the next great menace to the galaxy.
Yet Cryptic is not comfortable with implementing the K'Vort-class.
We have ancient ships from the ENT era that are more powerful than modern ships of STO's era. We're about to have Starfleet guys flying around in cloak-capable Bottle Cap Openers. And I want to repeat that we have playable Species 8472 ships.
Yet Cryptic is not comfortable with implementing the K'Vort-class.
I'm not sure how to judge based on canon evidence, since the sizes did tend to vary from shot to shot. The dimensions from a DS9 technical manual that a player posted previously seem a bit too much to me, but if that's what it says - then it is what it is.
And yeah, I also remember the wings being in fixed positions on the K'vorts.
Well, if they adhere to the dimesnions I mentioned in the previous paragraph then I'm not sure it could fall under anything else but battlecruisers. With dimensions like those, the best it can have in terms of turn rate would be 9/10 and that's just because it's a Klingon ship and they tend to have better turn rates in this game in geenral.
However, the use I'd personally find for the ship is a destroyer/warship. Something in between the Nausicaan destoryers and the Chel Grett warship, but of Klingon origin. Escort like hull, 1.0 shield mod, turn rate in the area of the Chel Grett, no +10% defense, fixed wings and no all universal Boff stations. Now the tricky part - it would have battlecloak, due to it's BoP heritage. I'm not sure what should/could be used to counter-balance that, but I'm sure it can be done by the devs.
What I'm currently thinking is - since Cryptic is obviously playing on this entire "intel" shtick, then offer this as a T6 "intel" battlecruiser or destroyer to KDF players that prefer the classic ships. Obviously the KDF "intel" ships will have battlecloaks equpped, so it would also fit the basic theme of this ship.
Ok, but it could just as easily be said that ~all~ the numbers in the entirety of Star Trek are garbage, it's entirely the manufacture of the writers and carries absolutely no foundation to any of the ships whatsoever beyond what had been DECIDED to be by someone, or several, for the sake of literary and/or visual convenience...
As such, the encyclopedias and technical manuals are the only reference resources for such data, and regardless of anyone else's opinion of those numbers, those are what they are... Bernard Schneider can write a thousand articles on a thousand perspectives of the matter, and it will remain sound and fury, signifying nothing precisely because the determination has already been made canon, with or without his approval of the decision...
And just as much as the matter does not require Bernard Schneider's approval, neither does it require yours, mine, or anyone else's for that matter, for it to remain precisely as it is now and presumably indefinitely, especially seeing as no errata amendment is logically going to come out for a TV show (DS9) that has since ended for some 15 years or more...
Therefore, the values set, for better or worse, are the values used and referred to... Anyone's opinion of them are little more than ripples in the water of a river, as soon forgotten as they are noted.
You do realise that I'm not happy we don't get it, I just don't think it's worth the effort when and somebody Correct me if I'm wrong CaptainGeko said it's just a big BoP and there is no reason to put it in game.
I'd rather campaign for a Intel BoP, Intel Raptor, Normal Battle Cruiser and a new T6 Carrier.
If I ask you a question it is not an insult but a genuine attempt to understand why.
When I insult you I won't be discreet about it, I will be precise and to the point stupid.
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They could perhaps give it 5 or even 6 weapons up front, but little to nothing in the rear. A 6-1 or 6-0 layout?
That would be a deteriment to a slower ship like this. Needs at least 2 slots aft, so you can at least spam some mines to cover your behind.
With slower turn rate and a 6/0 or 6/1 any escort and BoP will be able to stay in your aft and blow you up unchallenged, battlecloak or not.
I never said that he was the authority, only that he points out how it is not internally consistent. And internal consistency (such as canon) has ALWAYS been one of the defining features of Star Trek that helped to sustain its popularity.
As to the K'Vort itself, I am with the players who suggest that it should be a hybrid destroyer/BOP Perhaps with 5 fore, 3 aft weapons, a very slow turn rate (but higher than the Mogh with hull as the trade off) and possibly a battle-cloak.
I can just imagine it.
Typical BOP stats but all 6 weapon slots forward, 4-5 TAC Console slots.
Never gonna happen though.
Yeah they have some kind of discontent towards the aspect of the Klingon empire and towards any players who actually like Klingon lore. It is ironic though how things like fighting dinosaurs they think is something every single person wants but yet because 1 or 2 employees of cryptic don't like the K'vort that we will never get one. Just shows you the attitude they have its their way or the highway... vote with your wallet. So in the resources as in real money or real time spent I will do neither for X2 or any other season/expansion that doesn't provide adequate KDF content to go with it.
Please tell me you're not trying to argue about an inconsistency, but suggesting that Star Trek has any canonical consistency to begin with...
Shall we begin with just the more recent show(s) like Voyager?
Home of the never ending supply of shuttles to use, lose, and magically have next week?
A compliment of 38 torpedoes, mentioned specifically by Tuvok, which was spent nearly 3x over? And Tuvok also quite specifically mentioned that they could not be replaced/replicated either... So once gone, they stayed gone...
The tactical department likely just got ahold of some of those old-western-movie pistols that never needed reloading...
The Episode: Threshold... That alone is enough to make consistency/inconsistency discussions circle around the table until they divide by zero...
The K'Vort is at least consistent enough in that it's a "very large size bird of prey", about as wide as a galaxy class... Therefore not even remotely represented in STO and it really should be given it's repeated appearance(s) in the show(s)...
Trying to say "well it's not super duper precisely measured down to the last millimeter every single time it appeared", alright, so too can be said about every single other ship in every single other show... Should we then take out all the ships then since they were only kinda-sorta-if-you-squint "consistently" sized?
USS Casinghead NCC 92047 launched 2350
Fleet Admiral Stowe - Dominion War Vet.
Honestly, I feel sad about the Hegh'ta - being left behind on the upgrade system since it's not a C-Store and has no fleet version...:(
Cryptic should really do something about this ship, it's one of the best looking BoPs IMHO and it won't be able to keep up the pace in the new environment. (lvl 40 ship in fleet T6 era) It would be such a waste of design to be left behind and not re-used at the new end-game.
Was that a retorical question? The forum moderators, obviously.
If you were confused, you were not the only one. I was looking for the original name of the thread and thought the new name was a completely new discussion.
Just venting about these obnoxious moderators effing with my hard work. I know I am railing against hyper liberal bureaucrats with little or no ability at deductive reasoning, but at least all these posts are getting my profile promoted.
I agree as well. There should been a refit and Fleet version made. They could do a lot with this ship. Even make a new skin and call it the "K'Vort." To me its a darn good looking BoP. One I'm looking forward to use once I get up to that level. But that character isn't high on my list as of now.
USS Casinghead NCC 92047 launched 2350
Fleet Admiral Stowe - Dominion War Vet.
But it will not be until after we have spent our money on these new ships and T5-U and the FU upgrades ( i love the FU part cause that what it feels like they are saying to us) upgrades. and just when they feel we have given up they will release it. much like they won back a few feddy bears that were on the fence with the recent stargazer release.
I want the K'vort
and no wing movement whatever^^