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@Ship Designers: Guardian Class
yreodred
Member Posts: 3,527 Arc User
Hi.
I wanted to ask some questions about the ship design and make some suggestions for it.
First, i'm glad that you decided to make that ship more classic Starfleet looking!
I LOVE how you made the Engineering hull/Pylons/Nacelles configuration it looks really beautiful!
It's concept drawing looks also really great, without question, but theres one thing that bugs me about it.
The way Saucer and Neck are put together (side view) is contrary to the fluid and elegant look of the rest of the ship. Neck and Saucer should blend much better to that design.
The current Egg shaped saucer puts the center of mass (of the saucer) be too far to the back, which creates the same problem as with the Avenger. The ship looks too "uprightly" (sorry for the lack of words). The neck also enhances that look.
My sollution would be to make the Neck look less Galaxy Class like. Instead, i'd make it a bit less tall but make it face more forward, which would also put the Saucer more forward.
This would result in a much more fluid and elegant looki IMO.
If you look at it from above the Saucer looks simply too small and seems to have too little mass.
The easiest sollution would be to make it much wider. I know you guys like extremes, so i'd make it even wider that the Ventures Saucer, similar to a early concept drawing of a possible Galaxy successor.
Here's what i mean.
Thanks for reading.:)
I wanted to ask some questions about the ship design and make some suggestions for it.
First, i'm glad that you decided to make that ship more classic Starfleet looking!
I LOVE how you made the Engineering hull/Pylons/Nacelles configuration it looks really beautiful!
It's concept drawing looks also really great, without question, but theres one thing that bugs me about it.
The way Saucer and Neck are put together (side view) is contrary to the fluid and elegant look of the rest of the ship. Neck and Saucer should blend much better to that design.
The current Egg shaped saucer puts the center of mass (of the saucer) be too far to the back, which creates the same problem as with the Avenger. The ship looks too "uprightly" (sorry for the lack of words). The neck also enhances that look.
My sollution would be to make the Neck look less Galaxy Class like. Instead, i'd make it a bit less tall but make it face more forward, which would also put the Saucer more forward.
This would result in a much more fluid and elegant looki IMO.
If you look at it from above the Saucer looks simply too small and seems to have too little mass.
The easiest sollution would be to make it much wider. I know you guys like extremes, so i'd make it even wider that the Ventures Saucer, similar to a early concept drawing of a possible Galaxy successor.
Here's what i mean.
Thanks for reading.:)
"...'With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured...the first thought forbidden...the first freedom denied--chains us all irrevocably.' ... The first time any man's freedom is trodden on, we're all damaged. I fear that today--"
- (TNG) Picard, quoting Judge Aaron Satie
A tale of two Picards
https://youtu.be/d-f3bscZa0E?t=105(also applies to Star Trek in general)
Post edited by Unknown User on
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Comments
Perhaps there will be some variants with wider saucers and and the neck like you have it.
I think you have the right idea with the neck; though you've taken it a bit too far for my tastes.
I'm just glad it resembles a starfleet design and sort of a continuation of the Galaxy line of design rather than the sovvy.
My point is to give Crypitcs designers a little hint, before they release the ship.
Maybe they are ready to listen this time (they never have in the last 4 years, lol)
I don't say that my idea is the only one possible, but i think it would be a good alternative to the presented ship.
The neck-Saucer transition is what bugs me the most TBH. It doesn't fit to the rest of the ship. A egg shaped saucer fits much better to a ship that has a short neck or no neck (like the Sovereign for example) but a tall ship like the guardian a neck-saucer combination like that doesn't blend very good. (sorry my bad english
Saucer no, Or at least not so exaggerated, You've increased the volume of the saucer not just reshaped it. Effectively moving the center or mass even further forward
A completely circular Saucer would work also, but since Cryptics designers tend to extremes, i though a extreme wide saucer would be something new at cryptics designs. At least it wouldn't look so out of place anymore.
The thing that puts the center of mass more forward is the change of the ships neck. The changed Saucer-Neck transition makes the center of mass of the saucer look much more elegant and less clumsy.
Theres something to be said for the elegance of simplicity, but it would look out of place with the rest of the design I think.
As far as extremes go i would say that they should be avoided, or offered as options for to cater for specific taste
I agree, extremes should be avoided, but cryptics designs are always taken to the extreme IMO.
Its all about the aesthetics. Visuals also have a center of mass, that's my point. Cryptics egg shaped saucers have their visual center of mass too far to the rear, which makes the front part of those saucers look too "light" and the rear part plus the neck too "heavy". It looks just too unblanced. (the same problem as with the Avenger)
I simply hope they will let us use the Venture ship parts for the Guardian.
Other Galaxy Class parts are not necessarily required IMO, just the Venture parts.)
Since this is the Art forum, i was hoping someone from the Team would react to this, tbh. Especially since guardian class hasn't been released, i was hoping to be able to give some halfway qualified input.
I do agree that your modification makes the ship 'pop' a bit more and somehow the exaggerations make the ship more visually appealing. As it stands, the Guardian almost looks a bit too.. average.. in every way - there's no visual focal point(nothing that draws my attention).
Depends, How much of the arbitrary Rules of warp theory do you subscribe too?
I jest of course, the borg seem to do pretty well and cubes aren't exactly streamlined
Apart from internal layouts and perhaps the shape and size may be important for the efficiency of a Cloaking device? the shape seems to have very little importance, mostly aesthetic appeal.
Which is after all important, since most people will judge a ship's theme and function by its aesthetics as soon as they see it.
Take almost any of the Iconic Science Fiction ships, and you will know almost immediately the theme/function/purpose of the ship at a glace.
And for all the good cryptic designs I've liked, I think perhaps they haven't really managed to capture that iconic look that so many Hero ships have
My character Tsin'xing
As for the thread's topic... I actually don't care for yreodred's modifications, but that mostly stems from a long-standing weariness of his steadfastly declaring how things ought to be (and be perfect the way he envisions) which largely turn me off. Like a boy crying wolf too many times, some may eventually stop to take him seriously.
I will say this, though: I do actually have a liking for the concept artwork of the Guardian cruiser. I like how it seems to mix the Probert Ambassador with the Perpetual Excalibur. I expect to see significant proportion changes as it moves from a concept artwork to a three-dimensional model (where I assume the art team will iterate and tweak at it until it looks right to them) - but I do look forward to it.
Hopefully, yreodred will be pleased.
If they keep the Guardian Class the way it is now, the Neck+Saucer will look too steep and too tall for the ships size. A less tall and more fluid shaped neck would give the ship a much more elegant look IMO
Here's a example of what i mean.
On the other hand, the top down view is another "problem" so to say.
The nacelles indicate a certain distance which the Saucer can't balance (visually). A ship like the Prometheus could do that, because its "saucer" was much more dominant. But in this case, the Guardians Saucer looks just too tiny to balance the Nacelles and the empty space between them.
Especially the 3D model will certainly show a lack of visual mass of the saucer, especially the saucers front part.
The more apart Saucer and Engineering are the more careful one must be to balance both.
Sure if it had a completely round saucer like the Ambassador, the imbalance wouldn't be so bad, But since the egg shape makes the saucer look so light on its front, it will look similar like the Avenger.
Another thing they could do is to simply make the neck less tall.
I don't say that my opinon is the only one right, but i hope you get my point, despite my lack of proper words.
EDIT:
Here's a little graphic i made some years ago. As you can see it share som similarities with the Guardian, but it has a much more fluid shape and the saucer looks much better if it doesn't narrows to the front.
I think if you would move the deflector more upwards it would go into the neck. I think they had something like the Excelsiors deflector in mind (which i find pretty ok). thx, btw
I don't know if they listen to little, but it would be nice to get some reaction from them from time to time.
IDK how a good liaison between players and devs is supposed to work without communication.
What WE WANT are ships that look like these:
And when I say LIKE THESE I mean not exactly these b/c these are copywritten designs by individuals.
Cryptic: We want ships that look like the canon ships, but futuristic. NOT your idea of ships. You guys don't know how to make Federation line designs. Sad but True.
I tend to agree, its also kind of sensible for the function of reaction thruster placement on a space faring vessel, for minimising the production of unwanted torque on the vessels structure.
You don't need to be an expert in it, Anybody playing about an Hour of Kerbal spaceprogram would know that.
Though of course the visual centre of mass fails to take into account the lower density of the saucer and secondary hull's due to hanger bays and the presumably high density of the Nacelle's
The modifications you made to the design are pretty nice and personally i'd like to see that one put in game rather than the original concept.
Job work
The shape and weight distrobution does matter actually, structural forces apply to the ship during powered maneuvers, a ship with a really heavy front and rear end with a thin midsection will experience a bending moment if its reaction control systems are not perfectly balanced , one which could well end in structural failure
also... it's kinda weird seeing someone simultaneously say the lines need to be more fluid, while advocating making the shape of the saucer LESS fluid.
My character Tsin'xing
I'm not saying you are wrong or something, i simply would like to have alternatives.
The wideness of the saucer doesn't have anything to do with the ships fluidness IMO.
I made it wider, because it was simply too small.
The ships "fluidness", i was talking about was refering to the Neck/Saucer configuration. The original Ships egg shaped saucer was too small which was making the ship look Intrepid sized.
As i already said, the "problem" with the egg shape is that it is too "light" at the front part, which makes it look weired at most angles. (of course not at promotion shots, lol)
I tried a circular saucer, but in order to achieve the desired mass, it had to be huge. So i decided to make it eliptical. Btw. Eliptical (wide) saucers are very rare in cryptics designs, only Galaxy family ships have them, while other types of saucers are widely used by Cryptics designers.
But as i said that only my opinion, i'd be perfectly ok with the original design if they would add existing Venture and other Galaxy Variant ship parts. of us to choose from.
@thetanine
Good point.
They should allow us to use at least those ship parts that are already in the game.
I must say I quite like these changes. Takes away the "pudgy" look of the original. Bravo, nice work!
Now add this suggestion:
and I think you've really changed that goose into a swan!
DEV'S Give us more than just a skin pattern, ship it with a few different ship items so we can mix and match since the last 2 years ALL your ships have had next to none customisation.
The galaxy and assault cruisers made be behind the dps race but I still see a new combination of part that I never seen once in a while. We want our ships, give us the parts and WE will build it......
Join The Space Invaders,..... Federation and KDF fleets.
Thanks to both of you!
Your opinion is very appreciated.
The funny thing is the Guardian looks very similar. If they had made the neck-saucer transition different and had they given the guardian a better looking saucer, bot ships would look much alike IMO.
(which are just those things i to criticise about the guardian design)
EDIT:
Now imagine the Dawnstar with a egg shaped saucer that narrows to the front. The result would be a totally different appearance and impression of the whole ship. Instead of a balanced appearance the new saucer would make the ship look much more static and cloddy and to much rear heavy. That's because the dawnstars saucer visual mass is more to the front than a egg shape. A egg shaped saucer look way too light in that area, making the ship look very unbalanced.
It would result in a ship that (like the Avenger) looks like a sitting duck, lol.
It's like Cryptics designers never take a look at the side view of their starfleet ships. IDK about other people, but things like that are instant eye-popping to me. (sorry bad english
Seriously i can't understand how someone who profesionally works on things like that can be satisfied with such a design.
As a player, it's not like we see that ship just once and never see it again. Some of us will surely use it for a long time. Graphical issues like that do not need to be and can be easily be avoided.
True.
it looks like they are trying to come up with more and more unique shapes, just for the sake of creating something new. But they seem to loose track on making good looking or at least Starfleet typical designs. For example, new Klingon and romulan ships look very typical to their faction.
I'm not saying that the guardian looks totally alien, but they could do way better IMO.
I have noticed for a long time that cryptics designers like to add some small ugly details to starfleet ships, maybe they think it gives them somekind of distinctiveness which is true, but not to their favour.
Those small things can totally ruin the look of a ship.
(like the neck-saucer transition and the egg shaped saucer of the guardian IMO)
I'm sure some ppl may like the guardian as it is and that's fine, but there should be some alternative to it.