What I have as my own personal head canon regarding Janeway's alliance with the Borg is meaningless and not at all the point.
You want to claim that her actions were treasonous? Then show us the real canon source that proves it. Provide a link to a real canon source where it's shown Janeway was brought up on charges for treason. You can't because it never happened.
If you don't like it, that's fine. Just admit that it's your opinion and not fact. Write Brannon Braga and Joe Menosky and tell them your story. Maybe they'll retcon it in a future Trek show.
The fact that you're refusing to answer the question I asked, rather than the question you want me to ask, means I've got you trapped. You know I am factually correct that her actions are treasonous, so you're falling back on writer fiat. Guess what? Writer fiat has no value in-universe because in-universe there is no writer, therefore such arguments are inadmissible.
Answer the question I asked, yes or no, or concede.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
OMG LMAO! This would be really funny if it weren't also a bit sad/scary. But fine, I'll give you my personal opinion if it will make you happy. It's meaningless to the discussion, but I'll share it with you anyway since you asked so nicely.
No, I don't believe what Janeway did constitutes treason. She didn't do anything all that radically different than other Captains before her who also were not found guilty of anything.
Still waiting on you to provide that link.
Once again, you ignore the question I asked in favor of the question you would prefer to answer. If one walks up to some random TRIBBLE on the street and shoots them squarely in the head and never gets charged, does that mean one did not commit murder? There's a difference between being factually guilty of a crime (you either committed it or you didn't), and being found guilty by a court.
So, we're right back to:
Do you deny that it is considered treason for a legal representative of a government to provide military assistance to parties engaged in a state of war against said government?
Do you deny that it is a canon fact that the Borg are engaged in a state of war against the Federation (along with everybody else) and have been from day one?
Do you deny that it is a canon fact that Janeway is a legal representative of the Federation?
Do you deny that it is a canon fact that Janeway provided military assistance to the Borg?
Still waiting on you to provide a yes or no answer to each of the above.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
And I'm still waiting on you provide what I asked you for first.... a link to an official real canon source where Janeway was brought up on charges for treason.
Or would you care to keep ignoring that too?
You know damn well there is no such link because the VOY writers were a collection of hacks.
But I'm not talking about whether she was charged with a crime. I'm talking about factual guilt, regardless of the legal system.
Answer the questions. Yes or no.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
You know damn well there is no such link because the VOY writers were a collection of hacks.
This.
We are talking on a meta-level here. Janeway is one of the most incoherent characters in modern fiction. You can't just point to a flaw in story telling to prove that she is not guilty of treason.
Just use your own brain. Don't be a slave to canon. You are HIDING behind it, nothing else.
I say no, because the alliance with the borg was against a greater enemy that threatened the federation FAR more than borg
Says who?
Kes? Our resident psycho? What else points to 8472 being enemies of the entire Universe? The Borg attacked them first. They attacked the Borg in retaliation.
End of story. If we are sticking to Canon, that's it.
im no fan of janeway or anything but it was the future janeway that commit treason i do belive so unless the time cops get her. they cant go after the prime line janeway for something that now does not ever happen.
since her act of treason no longer takes place.
Trophies for killing FEDS ahh those were the days.
I'm going to have to side with the canon decision Starfleet and the Federation Council made on this one and say no.
Can you link me the canon source where I can watch Starfleet Command and the Federation Council (legislative btw, not judicative...) are evaluating everything Janeway pulled off in the Delta Quadrant?
You can't? It happened offscreen, you might say?
Well, prove it.
She was promoted you say? Yeah, maybe to get her out of that chair. :P
(this last statement is not so serious... I am trying to be sarcastic here and poke fun on your habit to stick to canon without looking at the bigger picture).
Thank you. It only took you 2 or 3 pages to admit that you're wrong.
Nope, wrong again. All I admitted to was that she was never canonically charged with a crime. Once again, it's possible, however unlikely, to commit a crime and never get charged.
I'm going to have to side with the canon decision Starfleet and the Federation Council made on this one and say no.
Show me a canon link that says Starfleet and the Federation Council made a decision on the matter, rather than the VOY writers just conveniently forgetting it all happened and promoting their Mary Sue for ****s and giggles.
And again, answer the specific questions, plural, that I asked, not the question you fervently wish I was asking.
future janeway did but as i said now that is over it wont happen again now since they are home. that is unless the time cops get involved.
You're confusing treason with prime directive violations. Not the same thing.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Said link does not exist, as we do not "see" the points in time that Janeway would have been brought up on treason charges.
That is, if anyone reported her. I mean, would Command trust Chakotay or Torres as they were "Maquis" and not "Starfleet"? Did Janeway deflect the blame on them - say it was their plan and the only viable way out at that second?
For all we know, she was tried within days of Voyager parking in orbit around Earth, and was exonerated due to "mitigating circumstances". Or her punishment was the promotion to Admiral and stripped of field command... :P
However, and in-canon, the episodes cited earlier show the actions that would lead to treason charges. With the lack of further canon details, we can only ride with the claim of treason, not the final results of said acts back at home station.
On point 2 - Kirk did bust up the Prime Directive a lot, but I don't recall any episode that he willfully put the Federation at risk or directly aided the enemy (treasonous acts). Same with Picard - while he rendered quite a bit of aid to the Rommies, he never sold out state secrets, assisted them in completing a solely Romulan objective, and/or let them get away with what they wanted if the Federation wanted it. Sisko, well, by the time the grand jury would have indicted him, he was off with the Prophets and not quite in the reach of Starfleet Justice anymore... And Archer didn't have a Federation to answer to, just Earth Command...
but kirk did face charges atleast once possibly more in times off screen but once for sure and was even convicted. punishment stripped of rank back to captain and put in command of a starship LOL
spock was also on trial once. but got off. when the butt head aliens sent the info and in the end the invite for jeff hunter to join them, in lala land
Trophies for killing FEDS ahh those were the days.
You can infer that she wasn't put on trial or found guilty of treason since she was promoted to a rank of Vice Admiral and not courtmartialed or imprisoned. With that said, clearly your interpretation of the fictional "law" in Star Trek is incorrect as Starfleet and the Federation Council apparently reached a different conclusion based on the facts. Laws are not always black and white. Call it a Mary Sue all you like, it's what is established canon fact.
If I'm not allowed to infer based on things that weren't seen on-screen, then neither are you. Show me canon proof that the Federation knew about it.
And again, answer the question I asked.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
OMG LMAO! This would be really funny if it weren't also a bit sad/scary. But fine, I'll give you my personal opinion if it will make you happy. It's meaningless to the discussion, but I'll share it with you anyway since you asked so nicely.
No, I don't believe what Janeway did constitutes treason. She didn't do anything all that radically different than other Captains before her who also were not found guilty of anything.
Still waiting on you to provide that link.
i havent been talking about the prime line janeway because of your argument but future janeway was surely involed in treason. and was being chased by starfleet in her stolen ship with its stolen and or illeage tech. that did in fact aid the enemy. and the prime janeway was complacent in those actions. but it could be said she was following orders from an admiral. but as it stands we do not know if she was brought up on charges for the same crime that Kirk was convicted of or not. but it dont matter in the show you can clearly see her commit the acts and escape custody. Because KIm is a wuss
Trophies for killing FEDS ahh those were the days.
You're confusing treason with prime directive violations. Not the same thing.
no theft of a starship and handing tech to the enemy all commit buy the future janeway. and thats was on screen and even showed starfleet and KIM ordered to stop her. she fled custody. im only using these examples for that other guy that can see common sense answers.
and point out that kirk was charged and convicted of atleast one of the same crimes.
Trophies for killing FEDS ahh those were the days.
I am hoping that the Undine and the Tholians will get aboard the "roflstomp the Iconians and Co." bandwagon sooner or later.
I wouldn't bet on it. the Undine are hell-bent on our destruction thanks to the iconians and the tholians signed a nonaggression pact with the Dominion at one point. they would probably sign one with the Iconians too.
So .... what? Starfleet never reviewed Voyager's logs upon their return? Interviewed the crew? Or was there some shipwide conspiracy where everyone was sworn to secrecy about it? Or perhaps Neelix destroyed all the logs referencing it before he left the ship? :rolleyes:
It didn't happen on-screen, so it didn't happen, right? That's the logic you're using; I'm just turning it around.
Answer the questions.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
You saw her promoted on screen and not in jail for treason. Nice try though.
We didn't see the Federation reviewing Voyager's logs, so clearly they weren't reviewed. Your logic, not mine.
Answer the specific questions I asked. I did you that courtesy. And I don't give a good gorram whether Starfleet Command thinks she farts rainbows.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Says who?
Kes? Our resident psycho? What else points to 8472 being enemies of the entire Universe? The Borg attacked them first. They attacked the Borg in retaliation.
End of story. If we are sticking to Canon, that's it.
"The weak shall perish" "your universe shall be purged"
Comments
The fact that you're refusing to answer the question I asked, rather than the question you want me to ask, means I've got you trapped. You know I am factually correct that her actions are treasonous, so you're falling back on writer fiat. Guess what? Writer fiat has no value in-universe because in-universe there is no writer, therefore such arguments are inadmissible.
Answer the question I asked, yes or no, or concede.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
Once again, you ignore the question I asked in favor of the question you would prefer to answer. If one walks up to some random TRIBBLE on the street and shoots them squarely in the head and never gets charged, does that mean one did not commit murder? There's a difference between being factually guilty of a crime (you either committed it or you didn't), and being found guilty by a court.
So, we're right back to:
Still waiting on you to provide a yes or no answer to each of the above.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
You know damn well there is no such link because the VOY writers were a collection of hacks.
But I'm not talking about whether she was charged with a crime. I'm talking about factual guilt, regardless of the legal system.
Answer the questions. Yes or no.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
I say no, because the alliance with the borg was against a greater enemy that threatened the federation FAR more than borg
This.
We are talking on a meta-level here. Janeway is one of the most incoherent characters in modern fiction. You can't just point to a flaw in story telling to prove that she is not guilty of treason.
Just use your own brain. Don't be a slave to canon. You are HIDING behind it, nothing else.
Says who?
Kes? Our resident psycho? What else points to 8472 being enemies of the entire Universe? The Borg attacked them first. They attacked the Borg in retaliation.
End of story. If we are sticking to Canon, that's it.
im no fan of janeway or anything but it was the future janeway that commit treason i do belive so unless the time cops get her. they cant go after the prime line janeway for something that now does not ever happen.
since her act of treason no longer takes place.
Now you are just playing stupid to pretend you have "won" this argument.
Can you link me the canon source where I can watch Starfleet Command and the Federation Council (legislative btw, not judicative...) are evaluating everything Janeway pulled off in the Delta Quadrant?
You can't? It happened offscreen, you might say?
Well, prove it.
She was promoted you say? Yeah, maybe to get her out of that chair. :P
(this last statement is not so serious... I am trying to be sarcastic here and poke fun on your habit to stick to canon without looking at the bigger picture).
future janeway did but as i said now that is over it wont happen again now since they are home. that is unless the time cops get involved.
Show me a canon link that says Starfleet and the Federation Council made a decision on the matter, rather than the VOY writers just conveniently forgetting it all happened and promoting their Mary Sue for ****s and giggles.
And again, answer the specific questions, plural, that I asked, not the question you fervently wish I was asking.
You're confusing treason with prime directive violations. Not the same thing.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
but kirk did face charges atleast once possibly more in times off screen but once for sure and was even convicted. punishment stripped of rank back to captain and put in command of a starship LOL
spock was also on trial once. but got off. when the butt head aliens sent the info and in the end the invite for jeff hunter to join them, in lala land
If I'm not allowed to infer based on things that weren't seen on-screen, then neither are you. Show me canon proof that the Federation knew about it.
And again, answer the question I asked.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
i havent been talking about the prime line janeway because of your argument but future janeway was surely involed in treason. and was being chased by starfleet in her stolen ship with its stolen and or illeage tech. that did in fact aid the enemy. and the prime janeway was complacent in those actions. but it could be said she was following orders from an admiral. but as it stands we do not know if she was brought up on charges for the same crime that Kirk was convicted of or not. but it dont matter in the show you can clearly see her commit the acts and escape custody. Because KIm is a wuss
I may sound like your second account here, but... THIS ^
no theft of a starship and handing tech to the enemy all commit buy the future janeway. and thats was on screen and even showed starfleet and KIM ordered to stop her. she fled custody. im only using these examples for that other guy that can see common sense answers.
and point out that kirk was charged and convicted of atleast one of the same crimes.
I wouldn't bet on it. the Undine are hell-bent on our destruction thanks to the iconians and the tholians signed a nonaggression pact with the Dominion at one point. they would probably sign one with the Iconians too.
It didn't happen on-screen, so it didn't happen, right? That's the logic you're using; I'm just turning it around.
Answer the questions.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
Answer the specific questions I asked. I did you that courtesy. And I don't give a good gorram whether Starfleet Command thinks she farts rainbows.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
"The weak shall perish" "your universe shall be purged"
Let's go kill all Americans for the BS some soldiers are saying during combat missions.
You really don't get that we know Janeway wasn't charged.
But not because she did nothing charge-worthy... but because the authors are idiots.
We are using your obsession with onscreen canon against you. Logical deduction is forbidden. You made those rules for this thread.