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BoP Needs Real Buff's Cryptic!
oakland4life
Member Posts: 545 Arc User
While BoP's did got buff'd with the Flanking ability and 10% more hull awhile ago, Cryptic despite making the BoP's as ''Hit & Run'' ships when the game started, they probably forgot or don't understand concept ''Hit & Run'' nowadayz and as for Raider Flanking since it came its only been doing 8.3% dmg vs Players compare to 25% dmg vs NPC despite most BoP's having only 3 Tac consoles Few with 4 and None with 5, and not to mention that PvP players are smarter and more adaptive and they can survive alot longer unlike stupid NPC's with handful of programmed commands.
Only reason Cryptic says that Flanking is reduced in dmg vs Players is because BoP's is doing well (in their so-called data)... The real reason BoP's doing well because alot of them is flown by us veteran players but in terms of overall Statistics BoP's are weaker than their closest rivals on other factions such as Federation Escorts and Romualn Frigate type Warbirds.
Now i will compare BoP's to Fed Escorts and Rom Frigate Warbirds in Stat Advantages and Disadvantages.
BoP Advantages over Escorts and Warbirds
- All Universal BOff Station: good making a flexible BOff setup but also a disadvantage as i will explain below.
- Turn Rate: The BoP only real advantage which nowadayz is no longer a advantage since the advent of Fleet Eng Consoles and more Universal Console with Turn Rate bonus which already put escorts close to or some cases on par turn rate of that of BoP's
BoP Disadvantages when compare to Escort and Frigate Warbirds
- Weaker Hull: obviously
- Weaker Shield Mod: obviously
- 1 less Weapon Slot: BoP'shave slightly less dmg with 1 less weapon.
- Impulse Mod: Despite the myth that BoPs are faster, the Impulse Mod is exactly the same of that to a Fed escorts at 0.20 while not exactly a disadvantage. but in terms of Statistics if a BoP dog fights a Fed Escort both having the equal speed, the BoP is outmatched in both Offense and Defense stats and will surely lose to a equally skill player.
- Having less Tactical Consoles to Escort/Warbirds: Most BoP have 3 Tac Consoles only 2 non-fleet and 1 Fleet BoP acutally have 4 tac consoles, while Feds alone have more 4-5 tac console Escorts than the entire T5 lineup of KDF Raptors and BoP's Combined.
- 1 less BOff Ability: In return of having all Universal BOff slots, BoP's have 1 less BOff ability with a total of 11 abilities usable compare to 12 to most other ship classes.
- 1 less BOff Seating Slot: along having 1 less Ability BoP's have 1 less seating having 4 boff seating instead of 5 campare to most other ships, in turn it means that BoP's can't use 1 extra space trait such as Pirate, Embassy Rom Operative, Subterfuge or a T4 marauding Human leadership which means overall less dmg and/or less defense.
This is my point why BoP's are underpowered
What buffs do i think is needed for BoP's
- Remove the Flanking reduce dmg vs players of 8.3% and put in the full 25% dmg: BoP's lacks dmg overall compare to other tac ships having reduce dmg of flanking vs players does not help with BoP's having less tac consoles, 1 less boff seating and 1 less weapon so adding the full 25% dmg should help compensate with those missing areas.
- Increase Impulse Mod to Raiders: Raiders are Hit & Run ships they should be slighty faster than Escort not equal in speed due to the lack of defenses, a Impulse Mod of 0.22 (Min) or 0.24 (Max) should be fine for the ''Hit & Run'' ships
Only reason Cryptic says that Flanking is reduced in dmg vs Players is because BoP's is doing well (in their so-called data)... The real reason BoP's doing well because alot of them is flown by us veteran players but in terms of overall Statistics BoP's are weaker than their closest rivals on other factions such as Federation Escorts and Romualn Frigate type Warbirds.
Now i will compare BoP's to Fed Escorts and Rom Frigate Warbirds in Stat Advantages and Disadvantages.
BoP Advantages over Escorts and Warbirds
- All Universal BOff Station: good making a flexible BOff setup but also a disadvantage as i will explain below.
- Turn Rate: The BoP only real advantage which nowadayz is no longer a advantage since the advent of Fleet Eng Consoles and more Universal Console with Turn Rate bonus which already put escorts close to or some cases on par turn rate of that of BoP's
BoP Disadvantages when compare to Escort and Frigate Warbirds
- Weaker Hull: obviously
- Weaker Shield Mod: obviously
- 1 less Weapon Slot: BoP'shave slightly less dmg with 1 less weapon.
- Impulse Mod: Despite the myth that BoPs are faster, the Impulse Mod is exactly the same of that to a Fed escorts at 0.20 while not exactly a disadvantage. but in terms of Statistics if a BoP dog fights a Fed Escort both having the equal speed, the BoP is outmatched in both Offense and Defense stats and will surely lose to a equally skill player.
- Having less Tactical Consoles to Escort/Warbirds: Most BoP have 3 Tac Consoles only 2 non-fleet and 1 Fleet BoP acutally have 4 tac consoles, while Feds alone have more 4-5 tac console Escorts than the entire T5 lineup of KDF Raptors and BoP's Combined.
- 1 less BOff Ability: In return of having all Universal BOff slots, BoP's have 1 less BOff ability with a total of 11 abilities usable compare to 12 to most other ship classes.
- 1 less BOff Seating Slot: along having 1 less Ability BoP's have 1 less seating having 4 boff seating instead of 5 campare to most other ships, in turn it means that BoP's can't use 1 extra space trait such as Pirate, Embassy Rom Operative, Subterfuge or a T4 marauding Human leadership which means overall less dmg and/or less defense.
This is my point why BoP's are underpowered
What buffs do i think is needed for BoP's
- Remove the Flanking reduce dmg vs players of 8.3% and put in the full 25% dmg: BoP's lacks dmg overall compare to other tac ships having reduce dmg of flanking vs players does not help with BoP's having less tac consoles, 1 less boff seating and 1 less weapon so adding the full 25% dmg should help compensate with those missing areas.
- Increase Impulse Mod to Raiders: Raiders are Hit & Run ships they should be slighty faster than Escort not equal in speed due to the lack of defenses, a Impulse Mod of 0.22 (Min) or 0.24 (Max) should be fine for the ''Hit & Run'' ships
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1. Up the shield mod to .9 (.95, Fleet) - roughly 10% increase.
2. Up the hull from 24750 (27225, Fleet) to 27225 (29950, Fleet) - 10% increase across the board. (Would be only slightly, 250 pts. more than the Fleet T'Varo, which has 3 rear slots, 5 Boff stations and all the other goodies Rommies have. (For the record, I have and fly a Fleet T'Varo on my Romulan character and I'm still advocating this).
3. 1 uni boff slot OR 3rd rear weapon - bring in line with other "escort" style ships from both other factions.
While more console slots would be nice, I'm getting along just fine with them the way they are. The above would make me even happier with my Fleet B'rel than I already am, and more survivable.
Concerning #3, I would prefer the extra Boff station, even if only an Ens., though either and/or both would be awesome.
"There... are... four... lights!" ~Jean Luc Picard
In Trek canon the BOP is the standard KDF ship. It had multiple versions and ranged in size from the brel of the trek movies up to cruiser size ships with full cruiser size crew complements. The Raptor idea should have never made it into the game.. Bops are KDF escorts period. (raptors where seen in one episode and it was a small scout ship like an early pre rom influence bop... sort of what I think the Enterprise guys where going for)
With that in mind what we need is a T6 Proper BOP.
Call it a Heavy Raider... or Super Raider what ever you want. What it should have are the following.
1) Set commander station. Tactical (this removes the QQ over Sci bop silly notions the devs used to have)
2) 4-5 Tac consoles. 4 area a must... frankly there is no reason a bop should not be in on the 5 console standard of DMG ships these days... BUG, Xindi, Andorian, Fed Battlecruiser, Hef, Dhelan... 5 tac consoles are the gold standard of a dmg ship. Anything less is a support ship these days.
2) 5 Boff slots. The mirror bop and the Norg had it almost right... there is no reason at all whatsoever for the bops to be one slot short... not when ships of the same size crew wise (bug xindi) ect have a proper ship setup.
3) Proper Hull and Shields... its not an option anymore to fly a ship seriously (even as a raider) that can be one shot so easily.
4) Escort defense rating... Escorts get +10 Defense for free... I would say the bop deserves the same the idea of a "raider" class is long dead... all these new escorts could also be called raiders really there no larger and have the same size crews. If anything logicaly a bop would have more bonus defense... regardless raiders and escorts should share this bonus. At the very least bops should get +5 bonus.
5) Rear / Fore weapons. Bops have always been minus one weapons... again there is no logical reason that a xindi ship of the same size can pack an extra weapon in the front or a defiant can pack an extra one in the rear.
This is my suggestion for a T6 Refit Hegh'ta Heavy Bird-of-Prey
Tier 6
Type:Heavy Raider
Hull:31,000 (2000 less then xindi scort)
Shield Modifier:1.0 (standard shield mod)
Weapons:Fore 5 Aft 1 (If I said 5/2 you wouldn't even look at it lol)
Can equip dual cannons.
Crew: 100
Bridge Officers: Commander Tac... 1 Lt Cmd... 2 Lt Uni... 1 Uni Ensign
Device Slots:2
Consoles: 5 Tac - 2 Sci - 3 Engi
Turn Rate:21
Impulse Modifier:0.20
Bonus Power:+15 weapons power
Abilities: Battle Cloak
- NO Flanking bonus on the Heavy Raider
- Heavy Raider Defense +5% defense ( or instead something interesting like say Heavy Raider Defense screen... immune to dmg for .5s once every 1min... like a lite version of the aegis 2 piece proc)
+ What ever Sillyness is going to happen for T6... be it an extra piece of ship gear or some form of T6 first officer style Boff station or what ever it is.
bops are always going to be worse then warbirds though, because klinks cant ever assemble a full set of superior rom and reman rom faction boffs, that slash cooldown and buff ambush bonus duration.
any advantage a bop has in station setup over other escorts doesn't exist any more. literally ever station combination you could dream up is available on an escort somewhere, plus they get an extra ENS power too. its time to completely stop acting like the bop has be 'balanced' due to its 'advantages', it has none, yet it suffers anyway. a COM sci brel is the only really unique thing you can do on a bop, but that possibility is worth giving up nothing.
and ya, raptors shouldn't have been a thing. bops being some versatile thing is TRIBBLE pull nonsense. in canon they are purely tactical ships, exactly what escorts are in game.
in the mean time, just fix the wings on the mirro bop would ya? at least by DR launch?
By the way, BoPs have Battle Cloak, and while an escort in dogfight most likely will win, the BoP can just escape outmaneuvering it. After all, there's only one escort that can cloak, and when it does it isn't fighting. You're missing the point they aren't meant for putting up a true fight.
Actually, Romulan warbirds should get a nerf somewhat. How come I get +40% damage for 15 seconds on my Scimitar, and the Defiant does +15% for 5 seconds? wtf?
However, an innate defense bonus should be a must IMO, like 10%. Flanking is fine, +25% on players would make them lol.
basic upgrades alone would do wonders:
-- all top tier bop should have 10 (or new max if changed) consoles
-- all top tier bop should have full set of weapons (4/3)
^^^ these simply update the ships to current escort levels.
-- all top tier bop should have the best cloaking. (now on par with t'varo)
-- all top tier bop should have enough hull (?? value ??) to be playable in pvp. (this may not be much of a change, as the ships can be loaded with officer heals it may be fine ...?!)
-- all top tier bop should have cmdr, ltcmdr X2, lt officer layout (or better in expansion). (this and the previous idea have to be balanced)
and a few quality of life upgrades would be nice as well... perhaps make flanked attacks do 25% normal threat so we can actually USE the ability without having to TANK bosses or tough mobs. As it stands, flanking suicidal in some situations; I shudder to think of what a modestly geared player who is not an engineer faces after pulling a boss due to a crit flank volley). I can actually tank most of the content if I don't get any bad luck one-shots, but that requires use of MW and constant self healing and shield juggling along with better than average gear and that gear being heavily defensive.
Alsp, when talking about a T6 upgrade, Bops should have a "double" upgrade, since all other ships will also be upgraded to T6.
@rudiefix Feds: Rudiefix / Thron / Opa
@rudiefix KDFs: Lill / Xifeidur / Dehr / Ugly
@rudiefix Roms (KDF alligned): Chicita
Which brings up the next request... the b'rel. The token 10% hull they gave it still makes it obsolete. it is still missing a boff, weapon slot, shields, and shield modifier upgrades. I stopped using my favorite ship because I had to embrace the power creep.
Even with the T6 upgrades, it will still be behind all the upgrades for the power creep ships... i.e. same boat as it is in now.
In case any of you "newer devs" don't know.... The b'rel and other bops took a penalty very early on because of the enhanced battle cloak being introduced. In order to get the enhanced battle cloak (i.e. cloak during battle), the b'rel and bops had to give up shields, hull, boff slot, and weapon slot because it was OP at the time. That is no longer the case!!!!!
Given what you are releasing these days (t'varo cough) which has a battle cloak and better stats.. the KDF ships need their TRIBBLE back.
I am tried of trying to keep up with the power creep by equipping 4 neutroniums and 3 field gens just to try and stay alive for a little while longer and not being able to use any universal consoles.
This is all out of hand!
And I am not even going to get into the fact that a 10% hull increase still doesn't stop rom feds who abuse the TDF. There are other threads that exist out there which prove that even spec'd into stealth, having all stealth consoles on, deflector with +stealth, that b'rels can still be seen at almost 20KM away.
I AM NOT A FAN OF PWE!!!!
MEMBER SINCE JANUARY 2010
What, exactly, is a scout class ship in this game? What sector is unexplored and free of combat for "scouting" missions?
yes, the all uni stations is the "special cool thing" about these ships. So what -- you have to run with enough healing to stay alive, which eats up a lot of the "flexibility". I would bet you most bops are running at least 1 sci and 1 eng, out of 4 officers; its not like 4 tac stations is viable or some other unthought-of combo. They are 1 officer less than other ships; most have cmdr, ltcmdr, and lt X 2. One has 2 ltcmdr but it is missing a console.
they do not all have the best cloaking (rom style). It varies.
flanking is sweet, but the class of ships has tons of drawbacks as well. It is barely durable enough for most elite pve; its almost unplayable in some of them if you don't already have top gear whereas many other ships can at least give a solid try with modest gear.
Again, for the good stuff you list, the class is missing a bridge officer, is missing a console on most of the family, is missing an aft weapon, and has greatly reduced hull and shields (slightly better since recent buff). The ships have a mishmash of odd layouts; the good cloaker has bad consoles (of all things, its primary console is engineering??) and the high dps one can't cloak properly, while the "all arounder" is a 9 console fleet ship.
The class needs.... work.
I agree.. we are not being unreasonable here.....
We are asking that cryptic give us back what they took when it got the battle cloak (both versions) because the power creep of today is not like that of yesterday. Even the T6 buffs to this ship will keep it at the same place it is right now..... obsolete and underpowered.
it needs either double the T6 buff benefits or give us back what was taken from it give that your reason, cryptic, is no longer valid when you started making the t'varo line.
I AM NOT A FAN OF PWE!!!!
MEMBER SINCE JANUARY 2010
Exactly, finally someone else stated it first.
The ship is not an escort, it is a mere scout vessel!
Putting it exactly on par with escort class vessels, would mean it may need lose something in return, you know like the EBC on the few that have it.
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
It brings everything better than the b`rel, and it has a so good boff layout that really you cant use a lot of that all uni boffs - almost every boffseup you could thik about is brought by a lockox ship with doubled stats of a BoP, and the flanking bonus? do you think it is better than +1bo+1console+shielmod+hull+weaponslot?
And bw, i dont flmae "my" ship to become better, im a fed only player, but the evuls should get atleast a chance to fire with the same power we do, they are warriors and we are explorers, and here it looks like the opposite - i do not want to shoot poor klingons, then i would feel bad - i want to face a real battle.
And for it being a scout vessel: What do you wanna scout in sto?
Its more about putting it on par with warbirds then escorts. There is zero reason to fly a KDF toon. There is NOTHING a bop can do that a warbird doesn't do 10x better.
From Mem Alpha. "This type of craft, initially descended from its counterpart from a century earlier, was one of the most versatile warships employed by the Empire, serving a variety of mission roles, including that of a scout, raider, patrol ship, and cruiser."
The b'rel is a scout ship... yes we all agree its a scout. Regardless it needs to be more on par with the Romulan t'varo.
There are however many other bops featured in Trek lore. Most are more accurately described as Patrol Ships. Those BOPS that where kicking bottoms in the DS9 dominion war era where patrol ship version bops.
The mirror universe bops where in fact cruisers... and it would be cool to see a mirror universe bop that reflected that with more cruiser like stats. (and perhaps a regular cloaking device in place of the battle cloak)
No one has said we need an uber brel with enhanced battle cloak and xindi stats. However the thought that the Klingons would be sending there warriors off in ships that are not even on par with sub standard races like the xindi is blasphemous, and a molestation of the Trek IP.
The KDF Bird of Prey idea is one of the most realistic depictions of what an actual Military would create in terms of star ships. The bops where a universal platform, much like our modern day jets that are designed to perform multiple roles and are sold to multiple countries. By using one standard design that is repeated in various sizes and load outs you create a stream of like parts suitable for mass production. Making battle field repairs easier, surplus part storage easier, crew training easier. Ect ect ect. The writers constantly giving the good guys new ships with completely overhauled engines and bits and pieces with new designs all the time is very unrealistic (makes for good fiction though). I guess being the bad guys it was easier for the writers to simply say "enemy" vessel, so the Klingons where given the utilitarian bop. Or perhaps the idea of the BOP struck a cord with people thinking of them as evul Russians and there MIG fighters. (where parts from one plane series often interchange with newer models).
To sum up my love note to the BOP. We need BOPS that reflect the role they have in the KDF. They are not mere scout ships. Yes the sexiest ship ever designed for Trek is the ILM created B'rel class. No doubt who doesn't want to pilot that ship. Still a proper Patrol ship BOP is needed by the faction and the game.
Good RP... truth is I one shot BOPs pretty much any time I see them. Zap boom. Sure if they get a good alpha in at the right time they will score a kill. Heck you can do that in a shuttle with the right gear if you score a crit on someone with no defenses up. Doesn't mean I want to fly a shuttle in a real match.
If the bop was worth flying the HOBO premade would fly them.... wouldn't they ?
BOPS are fine for kerrat... I want a BOP that is fine for STO PvP.
So why don't the romulans give up aaaaaany of that stuff? They have everything you mentioned.
Well again, they are not the main battle cruiser type vessel, that warbirds are portrayed as.
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
Give up what?
Not having any choices for a real Sci vessel?
Or that they have only 1 BOP to choose from?
Or that their whole line of ships, are mainly battle cruisers, or escorts?
Sure they may be very strong cloaking attackers, but that is about it!
I am not saying, some changes shouldn't be done, but don't ask to have a BOP act like a FED main escort, without expecting some penalty along those lines.
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
We aren't asking for that. The fleet t'varo is a copy of the B'rel, except better in every way, statistically. That isn't whining or complaining about balance, that is a statistical, numeric superiority across the board.
You're welcome to invent more reasons why you totally believe that that superiority is warranted, but the fact of the matter is that the klingon BoP's were balanced against a standard that no longer exists, and to insist they need to hold to that standard, or doing so is warranted, when not only does it no longer exist but something as insanely superior as the fleet T'varo exists in game is at once ludicrous and immensely disrespectful.
Well the major problem, is they try to use BOP's as the sole ship, to try and cloak/escort with.
Now while I get the KDF is slightly limited in choices, they still shouldn't expect old outdated BOP's, and still deemed patrol/scout vessels, as main battle escorts.
We will have to see, if Cryptic will ever toss the KDF some newer escort vessels, but don't hold your breath!
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1200131&page=2
I mean this post by me, is to try and defend KDF, and FED alike in some perspective.
So, I am not completely against you.
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
"Raiders can't have the survivability of Escorts!"
Duh, but mainly because Escorts shouldn't have the survivability they do. :P
So does mine, most of the time (Borg gate invisitorps and Crystalline Entity pulse waves excepted). However, having a few perks back that every other similar sized/designed ship does wouldn't be a bad thing.
"There... are... four... lights!" ~Jean Luc Picard